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End Sweeping the Voting Rights Act

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The good news about the Voter ID law debate is what it demonstrates: the modern GOP’s antipathy to civil rights. The concerted state level effort to end-sweep the constitution is a cynical attempt to limit the electoral process in the knowledge that it will not be litigated until after the damage is done. The GOP knows that the lower the voter turnout in 2012, the better prospect their party has in the national election. However, despite financing, hypocritical rhetoric and a dependence on public ignorance, these new state Voter ID laws violate the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

LBJ signs the Voting Rights Act of 1965“Millions of Americans are denied the right to vote because of their color. This law will ensure them the right to vote. The wrong is one which no American in his heart can justify. The right is one which no American true to our principles can deny.” President Lyndon Johnson made those remarks before Congress on August 6, 1965, when he signed the Voting Rights Act into law.

Extended in 1970, 1975, 1982, and 2006, the VRA codifies and effectuates the 15th Amendment’s permanent guarantee that no person shall be denied the right to vote on account of race or color. During the Reagan Administration, Congress amended Section 2 of the law. It prohibits any voting practice or procedure that has a discriminatory result and states that proof of intentional discrimination is not required. The provision focuses instead on whether the electoral processes are equally accessible to minority voters. New Voter ID laws are not.

The GOP falsely claims that widespread voter fraud exists. Once upon a time it did. Electoral fraud by ballot box stuffing, throwing out non-Democratic votes, or counting them for the Democrats even when cast for the opposition, was the norm in the Southern states before legal means of voter disenfranchisement became entrenched. Republicans, who have passed almost all of the new election laws, say they are necessary to prevent unsubstantiated voter fraud. The rhetoric is flawed.

In a Wall Street Journal column, Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach wrote, “You can’t cash a check, board a plane, or even buy full-strength Sudafed over the counter without ID.” Kobach is the co-author of Arizona’s SB 1070 illegal immigration law and former Counsel to U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft. “That’s why it’s not unreasonable to require one in order to protect our most important privilege of citizenship.”

Nice try, but voting is not a privilege. Voting is constitutional right. There is no Bill of Privileges.

ConstitutionRolling Stone reports that 38 states have introduced legislation designed to impede voters at every step of the electoral process. Alabama and Kansas require new voters to provide proof of citizenship before registering. Registration drives for new voters by groups like the League of Women Voters in Texas and Florida are now restricted. Maine’s Election Day voter registration, which had been on the books since 1973, has been repealed. Moreover, early voting periods have been shortened in Florida, Georgia, Ohio, Tennessee and West Virginia.

These new laws could make it significantly harder for more than five million eligible voters to cast ballots in 2012, according to the New York University School of Law. At a time when the United States continues to turn out less than two thirds of its eligible citizens in presidential elections and less than half in midterm elections, the states that have already cut back on voting rights will provide 171 electoral votes in 2012 — 63% of the 270 needed to win the presidency. 

Most cynically, an internal memo circulated by executive assistant of the Wisconsin Department of Transportation Steve Krieser instructs employees: “While you should certainly help customers who come in asking for a free [Voter] ID to check the appropriate box, you should refrain from offering the free version to customers who do not ask for it.” Obtaining a state-issued photo ID for the purpose of voting is actually free of charge. But if voters don’t specifically ask for the free ID, they’ll get charged $28

Can you say, “Poll Tax?”

“There is cost no matter what, whether they give these IDs out for free or not,” said the executive director of One Wisconsin Now, Scot Ross. “There is a cost that you would not normally have to bear in order to be an eligible voter.”

Even if an ID is free, getting the documents to obtain it can be expensive and difficult. For example, a U.S. passport costs as much as $145. Naturalization papers can run up to $200. A birth certificate in Texas costs $22. People born out of state who lack transportation, work multiple jobs, have disabilities, or are homebound or poor cannot access or afford this paperwork.

It took the Voting Rights Act of 1965 to prohibit the poll tax in state elections. TheLBJ signs VRA and gives pen to MLK Supreme Court independently declared poll taxes an unconstitutional violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment in Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections. Congress applied a nationwide prohibition against the denial or abridgment of the right to vote based on literacy tests. However, the modern GOP seeks to end sweep the VRA in specific and Constitution in general.

President Johnson said, “The denial of the right to vote is still a deadly wrong.” That denial is the effect of new Voter ID laws. As LBJ admonished Congress in 1965, “There is no Negro problem. There is no Southern problem. There is no Northern problem. There is only an American problem.”

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About Tommy Mack

Tommy Mack began his career in broadcasting and is a US Army graduate of the Defense Information School. He worked in Army Public and Command Information and earned a BS in Liberal Studies from the State University of New York, Albany. A marketing communications executive, Tommy became a business management consultant for a major international consulting company and its affiliates before establishing Tommy Mack Organization, a business consulting practice specializing in organization and communications management. A professional writer and blogger, he writes about politics, business, and culture.
  • Clavos

    It is exquisitely emblematic of the innate foolishness of the United States of America that citizens who cannot read the ballot are actually permitted to vote it.

    Come to think of it, if we allow illiterates to vote, we should allow them to be teachers as well. Voting, after all, is of far greater importance.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s just as exquisitely emblematic of our foolishness as a nation that we should have any illiterates at all.

  • Clavos

    Agreed, Roger, however you can lead a horse to water…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think the idea behind it is comparable to that of wanting to keep women barefoot and pregnant.

  • zingzing

    illiteracy, especially in non-native speakers, does not mean someone is stupid. 99% of americans are literate anyway… i dunno why that would come up.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    My father-in-law came from a whiskey tango family and couldn’t read or write until the 6th grade. After leaving school he joined the Navy as a medic, fought in Vietnam, took the GI bill when he came home, got a nursing degree, became an anaesthetist and recently retired on a six-figure income.

    Then again, he does watch Fox News. Make of that what you will.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Isn’t it a civil right to have your vote counted fairly and not be negated by an illegal vote or a fraudulent vote? What you seem to have lost track of here is the main point of protecting the legitimacy of the election process.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Still attacking the voting fraud strawman?

    My challenge still stands that I issued to you over two years ago – for every fraudulent vote you show on the liberal side, I’ll show you a thousand registered voters disenfranchised by Republican efforts.

  • Clavos

    illiteracy, especially in non-native speakers, does not mean someone is stupid.

    Seems like you’ve caught Glenn’s lack of reading comprehension condition, zing. I didn’t say it did.

    If you can’t read, you lack the principal means for acquiring information. even to the point of being unable to vote without assistance.

    The real bottom line of this whole “issue” is the fear that the progressives have of losing their client–oops, I mean voter–base.

    This same fear, but for a different reason, is why those same progressives are calling Herman Cain ugly names like Oreo and Uncle Tom — fear of losing a game-changing portion of the Black voters to him.

  • Kenneth Williams

    In my opinion, English should be the only language a voting ballot should be available in. If a person doesn’t understand it, then they should take a class. My mother was from Japan, spoke no English, and could not get her citizenship until she could.She did not use her ethnicity to claim a disadvantage; rather, she was proud to be able to call herself American. I think that part of our countries problems are the fact that the more we enable those that want to come here by not requiring Voters rights has been taken out of the context of which it was originally intended, as it was put into law during the civil rights stage of history, and is now being used as an illegal immigration tool to garner votes. This is not only a bad practice, but a dis-service to all those who have studied long and hard to pass citizenship tests to become legal United States citizens. It is also an affront to anglo-Americans, who it seems, are becoming the new minority. There are problems with voting in every nation, including ours (look at the voter intimidation trial swept under the rug against the New Black Panthers), but to try and accomodate those that do not speak English,not only this nations recognized language, but the most used and recognized language of the world has to make one ask why? Especially in these times.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Oh, Clavos! Claaaaaaavos!

    Ah – the whole brouhaha over literacy is because “the fear that the progressives have of losing their client – oops, I mean voter – base”.

    So THAT’s it! The voter base of progressives are the illiterates, because if they could read, they’d probably be conservatives! Is that it, Clavos?

    Well, let’s see how this latest assumption of yours stands up to the available statistics. There hasn’t been a state-by-state survey of adult literacy since 1993, but here’s a link to the 2005 Census statistics on state-by-state completion of high school. I’d say that while completion of high school doesn’t guarantee functional literacy, it’s still a pretty good general indicator. And here’s the bottom fifteen states – which, btw, comprise All the states below the national average…which means that the high school grad rates in these fifteen states are SO bad that they balance out the rest of the nation!

    35 – Arizona 83.8
    36 – District of Columbia 83.6
    37 – Rhode Island 83.5
    38 – Georgia 82.8
    38 – Nevada 82.8
    40 – North Carolina 82.3
    41 – New Mexico 82.0
    42 – South Carolina 81.7
    43 – Tennessee 81.2
    43 – West Virginia 81.2
    45 – Arkansas 81.0
    46 – Louisiana 80.5
    47 – Alabama 80.3
    48 – California 80.1
    49 – Kentucky 79.0
    50 – Texas 78.8
    51 – Mississippi 78.5

    So could you tell us again how it’s the progressives that depend on the illiterates for a voter base?

    Hm?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And Clavos –

    This same fear, but for a different reason, is why those same progressives are calling Herman Cain ugly names like Oreo and Uncle Tom — fear of losing a game-changing portion of the Black voters to him.

    Can you show me where progressives called Cain ‘oreo’ or ‘Uncle Tom’? I mean progressives who are not black. The reason I make the distinction is that blacks just might feel they have good reason for calling Cain such names, since he’s sharing a stage with one guy who brought his friends to a place called “n****rhead” and another guy who says that businesses have a right to discriminate on basis of race, creed, color, religion, ethnicity.

    Ah, but I’m sure all this is just a big misunderstanding due solely to my lack of reading comprehension….

  • Clavos

    Well, let’s see how this latest assumption of yours…

    Nice research, Glenn, but once again, a failure on your part to read judiciously–this time with a soupçon of fantasy.

    I never made the assumption you accuse me of, I didn’t even hint at it. The assumption in my statement was the same one you “progressives” make: those people simply won’t vote.

    …Cain such names, since he’s sharing a stage with one guy who brought his friends to a place called “n****rhead” and another guy who says that businesses have a right to discriminate on basis of race, creed, color, religion, ethnicity.

    In other words, because he “shares a stage,” he’s cut from the same cloth and shares the same prejudices. I believe that’s called “guilt by association,” and is yet another example of your fallacious thinking, Glenn.

    Sheesh! Between the lack of reading comprehension and the multitude of fallacies you employ in your “thinking,” Glenn, you could qualify for a disabled parking permit–oh, wait, they don’t issue those for cognitive disability!

  • zingzing

    “Seems like you’ve caught Glenn’s lack of reading comprehension condition, zing. I didn’t say it did.”

    seems like you’ve caught my lack of reading comprehension condition, clavos. i didn’t say you said that. that’s what i said.

    see that phrase “non-native” speakers? that’s pretty important, isn’t it?

    “The real bottom line of this whole “issue” is the fear that the progressives have of losing their client–oops, I mean voter–base.”

    or you could put it another way and say that the right just doesn’t want people voting. which would you rather have? people voting, or people being denied their basic right? nice try, clavos.

    “This same fear, but for a different reason, is why those same progressives are calling Herman Cain ugly names like Oreo and Uncle Tom — fear of losing a game-changing portion of the Black voters to him.”

    nice race card, clavos. how does it feel in your hand? i haven’t seen anyone call cain an uncle tom, but i’m sure it’s happened… both on the right and the left. we’ll see if he can secure a nomination from the right, alright? god, that race card in your hand appears to be giving you a giant boner. don’t play around with those things clavos… they’re ugly.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    You’ve really gotta work on your reading comprehension:

    In other words, because he “shares a stage,” he’s cut from the same cloth and shares the same prejudices. I believe that’s called “guilt by association,” and is yet another example of your fallacious thinking, Glenn.

    I did NOT say nor did I even imply that Cain was cut from the same cloth or shares the same prejudices as Perry or Paul. Not only that, but I made ZERO judgments about the man’s character in my comment. All I did was point out that any such insults were likely made by blacks (I challenged you to show otherwise) and then I explained why THEY might feel that way.

    But you assigned those judgments to me. Why? Not because I owned those judgments, but because I stated who might be making those judgments and why.

    So why don’t you go back and find out what is meant by the pejorative “Uncle Tom”? It’s defined thus by the Urban Dictionary:

    A black man who will do anything to stay in good standing with “the white man” including betray his own people.

    Do you see your error? Or will you still try to tap-dance your way out of it? My guess is that it will be the latter. But in any case, I suggest you be careful when it comes to the ‘reading comprehension’ line…because sometimes it comes back to bite you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And Clavos –

    Look again at the last sentence of what zing wrote:

    that race card in your hand appears to be giving you a giant boner. don’t play around with those things clavos… they’re ugly.

    I suggest you take his advice. I would not presume to teach you about growing up in Mexico or about the cultural mores of Mexican culture. On the other hand, you do not know the African-American culture nearly as well as you apparently think you do. That’s why zing is cautioning you on the matter.

  • http://cinemasentries.com/ El Bicho

    “fear of losing a game-changing portion of the Black voters to him.”

    Right. Because Cain being a conservative and insulting those voters by calling them “brainwashed” is going to have such a strong appeal.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Perhaps I’m out of the loop here, but when Clavos speaks of illiteracy in America, he didn’t single out African-Americans or any other people of color. And the fact that Tommy Mack had done so in the subject article provides no grounds for imputing to Clavos the restricted, Tommy Mack’s meaning, and accusing him of playing a race card. That feat is the sole accomplishment of this site’s resident liberals, and it’s little wonder that such as zingzing and Glenn Contrarian are leading the parade.

    As to my take on the matter, I interpret the illiteracy problem rather broadly, to refer in large part to white segments of the American population (as well), referred to in some circles by the somewhat uncomplimentary term as “white trash.”

    For liberals, such as Glenn, zingzing or Tommy Mack, to simply assume that the problem of literacy in America — the meat of Clavos’s original comment — is restricted to African-Americans or people of color — is to display the very patronizing attitude towards these people the DemoRat party is so well-known for and, to add insult to injury, to turn the tables on Clavos and accuse him of the very same prejudice(s) they themselves are guilty of. But that’s quite expected.

    If push comes to shove, I’d rather argue that it’s the disenfranchised whites who are the more illiterate and ignorant of the bunch, not the African-Americans. The latter had a long history of struggle against white supremacist America, and the condition of struggle tends to sharpen one’s consciousness, whereas the uneducated whites are just plain dumb.

    But that’s quite typical of the liberal mindset which, more often than not, tends to see the world through the distorted lens of its own presuppositions and unexamined assumptions.

  • Cannonshop

    Wow this zipped straight to the personal fast.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    But that’s quite typical of the liberal mindset which, more often than not, tends to see the world through the distorted lens of its own presuppositions and unexamined assumptions.

    That’s not the “liberal mindset”, Roger, it’s human nature.

  • http://loftypremise.blogspot.com/2011/07/repealing-great-society.html Tommy Mack

    #18 The patronizing attitude you refer to is yours, especially your “ . . . typical of the liberal mindset . . .” comment.

    If by the subject article you mean, “There is no Negro problem . . . ,” that is a quote from LBJ’s speech before Congress on March 15, 1965. LBJ was both eloquent and correct.

    Tommy

  • Clavos

    Right. Because Cain being a conservative and insulting those voters by calling them “brainwashed” is going to have such a strong appeal.

    Well, yes, and early polling seems to indicate that, although it’s admittedly early in the game…

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    You’ve gone off the edge of the map again.

    For liberals, such as Glenn, zingzing or Tommy Mack, to simply assume that the problem of literacy in America — the meat of Clavos’s original comment — is restricted to African-Americans or people of color — is to display the very patronizing attitude towards these people the DemoRat party is so well-known for and, to add insult to injury, to turn the tables on Clavos and accuse him of the very same prejudice(s) they themselves are guilty of.

    READ comment #11 – did I say or even imply anything about color there? NO. It was all about illiteracy rates and high school graduation rates listed by state…and the ONLY implication was whether those states were red or blue.

    READ comment #12 – THAT was the comment where I addressed Clavos’ references to ‘oreo’ and ‘Uncle Tom’…and NOWHERE in that comment is any reference to or implication of illiteracy or high school graduation rate.

    SHOW ME ANYTHING I’VE EVER WRITTEN THAT EVEN IMPLIED THAT THE PROBLEM OF ILLITERACY IS RESTRICTED TO PEOPLE OF COLOR!

    You can’t. But will you admit it? Will you admit that you just made a sweeping (and wrong) assumption? I sincerely doubt you will – instead you’ll either double-down on your assumption or you’ll say (with faux sincerity) something along the lines of how you weren’t really being disrespectful or insulting but you were just making an oh-so-innocent observation. But I’d love to see you either come up with proof of your accusation or be honorable enough to apologize. The refusal to admit such obvious error, Roger, is one symptom of what I meant by mental cowardice.

    But in any case, until this matter’s resolved, I guess zing and I are back to being the greatest threat to democracy.

  • zingzing

    roger: “That feat is the sole accomplishment of this site’s resident liberals, and it’s little wonder that such as zingzing and Glenn Contrarian are leading the parade.”

    god, roger. can’t you fucking read? the race card bit has nothing to do with illiteracy in the african-american population. it has to do with what clavos said about herman cain. the fuck is wrong with you?

    i can’t believe you could read what was written that way. the fucking text i’m referring to is fucking quoted right above it! you are accusing me of racism? of thinking that illiteracy only occurs in the black population? well, hot damn! you’re almost illiterate, so that disproves that.

    what you have to say up there is fucking scummy roger. you know goddamn well that’s not what was being said, but you turn on your fucking creep machine and just make up whatever goddamn nonsense you want to.

    illiteracy crosses all racial boundaries. there, i said it. i never believed anything different. just because you want to make something up doesn’t mean it’s true. it’s patently false.

    you owe me an apology. because that was shitty.

  • zingzing

    or as glenn put it. which is more calm than how i put it. i swear roger, you really got to stop this shit. it’s cheap and stupid.

  • http://cinemasentries.com El Bicho

    this quote seemed apropos: “i know i get into it as often as anyone else around here, but this silly personal bickering is, although fun for the participants, exceedingly puerile and somewhat pathetic from the outside looking in.” – zingzing

  • zingzing

    haha… true. although roger did just blatantly call me (and glenn) a racist because of some fantastical “reading” that exists only in his mind. that’s well over the line, and not quite “bickering.”

    also i did say i was as guilty of it as anyone, so… i’ll let myself off the hook. i won’t lose any sleep over it on any account.

  • Doug Hunter

    Ahh, changed internet providers and now I can post again, although I see little has changed. Glenn is playing his subtle race baiting, red state blue state card as he has been for years. He knows that the reason the border states, Texas, California, Arizona, etc have lower literacy is largely because of high numbers of Mexican immigrants who incidentally lean democratic. Similiarly, the rest of the sorry old slave states, Mississippi, Alabama, the big money liberal experiment zone known as DC, etc… the usual suspects… have high proportion of African Americans who also perform poorly in those same categories. It’s not that the entire south does any worse of a job of educating it’s minorities it’s that it has a helluva lot more of them. I’ve shown him the stats, when broken down by race specifically, that for instance Texas blacks are some of the best educated according to national testing in the country, Texas hispanics are some of the most educated in the country, and Texas whites are some of the most educated in the country. Yet, because of the ratio of each the overall score puts the state near the bottom as many northern states are highly weighted towards higher scoring whites.

    Now, I know Glenn is not dense nor stupid, so the fact that he is still spouting his ‘lying statistics’ and misleading nonsense when he knows and understands how meaningless it is tells me all I need to know about him, and why he is one of my least favorite people on this site. Other intelligent liberals on the site respond to reason, if they’re shown a more correct way to look at something will acknowledge it and move on, similiarly if shown one of my arguments is incorrect I’ll drop it and move another direction. Not Glenn. Glenn may know and understand that a border state with a large illegal population has low literacy largely because that state has these recent immigrants, he may also know that those immigrants that specifically bring down the score likely lean democrat, yet he’ll still make asinine ‘red state, blue state’ comparisons and try to smear Republicans as if they’re the illiterates, because, well, that’s the type of person he is. Maddeningly frustrating, but such a draw for comments.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A number of responses:

    @20 Rather lame, the attempt being to subsume the particular under the general. While there’s no denying that the comment could well be interpreted as addressing the general tendency(ies) of the human heart, the move to make it appear as if it were a general kind of comment, on the human condition, is a deliberate attempt at justification, amounting to saying that the particular doesn’t really matter (all that much) because it falls under the rubric of “the general.”

    @21, 23-through 24

    The vitriol reaction on the part of the gravest offenders of the double standard, hypocrites galore, has not only been expected but anticipated as well. When a person has been exposed for what they are, when they’re caught with their pants down and dicks hanging loose, the only possible reaction is — and we’re not talking here of persons of any real integrity but of mere dunces, circus clowns, jokers — is to flat out deny the obvious truth, to keep on insisting that the emperor is fully clothed whereas in fact he’s butt-naked. The greater the outrage, the greater the truth and they all know it, their only line of defense being their outrage. And accusations of hypocrisy, of being a fake, are as good as any motive for “feigned outrage,” bare none, I daresay.

    The only thing which is kind of disappointing about this sordid little affair is that Clavos himself failed to chime in. I understand it perfectly, having been more than once accused of unsavory motives, and I always make it my point not to respond to any such bogus charges. In this case, however, I took his side, defending him against the resident vultures, something I’d never do on my own behalf because it’s undignifying, something they don’t deserve.

    That’s all, folks. Let the melodrama continue. Bring it on!

  • http://cinemasentries.com El Bicho

    I thought you’d get a chuckle out of it, zing. I hope no one who engages here loses sleep over anything they read no matter how temporarily heated they get.

  • Clavos

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :-)

  • http://cinemasentries.com El Bicho

    without commenting on content, very good use of language in #29

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m flabbergasted, my man. A compliment from you? I’d swear I’d first die before I see it.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    In #29 you proved what I said. Not only did you not provide ANY proof of your accusations (because there ISN’T ANY), but you didn’t have the intestinal fortitude to own up to your mistake.

    Your pride is obviously more important than your integrity.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug! Ohhhh, DOUG!!!!

    Glenn may know and understand that a border state with a large illegal population has low literacy largely because that state has these recent immigrants, he may also know that those immigrants that specifically bring down the score likely lean democrat, yet he’ll still make asinine ‘red state, blue state’ comparisons and try to smear Republicans as if they’re the illiterates, because, well, that’s the type of person he is.

    You haven’t changed. Once again, you’re making up stuff. Now I’m fairly sure that you know enough about geography to look at the list below and know which ones have a really high percentage of immigrants – like all the ones along the Mexican border – and you probably even know that the OTHER thirteen of the bottom seventeen do not have a huge percentage of immigrants…

    …and of those thirteen remaining states on the list that do NOT border Mexico, only TWO are blue (one of which isn’t even a state), and they’re no lower than #37. The remaining ones that don’t border Mexico are ALL quite red.

    35 – Arizona 83.8
    36 – District of Columbia 83.6
    37 – Rhode Island 83.5
    38 – Georgia 82.8
    38 – Nevada 82.8
    40 – North Carolina 82.3
    41 – New Mexico 82.0
    42 – South Carolina 81.7
    43 – Tennessee 81.2
    43 – West Virginia 81.2
    45 – Arkansas 81.0
    46 – Louisiana 80.5
    47 – Alabama 80.3
    48 – California 80.1
    49 – Kentucky 79.0
    50 – Texas 78.8
    51 – Mississippi 78.5

    And you know what, Doug? If your claim about immigrants really held water, then FLORIDA would be on that list, too.

    But be sure to ignore all this, now, because FACTS should never, ever get in the way of Doug’s own very special reality.

  • Cannonshop

    #35 Notably, Glenn, you miss something-the immigrants in FLORIDA are mostly educated people fleeing the socialist paradise of CUBA.

    ’cause it actually takes some brains to get a raft across 90 miles of open water in the Caribbean without dying of thirst, heat-stroke, or drowning because it’s not really ship-shape.

    Different kind of immigration from people who can hire a Coyote to run them up in the back of a U-Haul through the most porous land border in the world.

  • Cannonshop

    It really IS a quality difference caused by the specific challenges involved-Mexico has no interest in preventing northern Emigration, Cuba, on the other hand…well…imagine the Berlin Wall, but with a ninety-mile wide moat an unpredictable wind conditions. It’s a little more challenging than getting across checkpoint charlie in the back of a volvo, whereas you can WALK from northern mexico into Arizona and not see a soul, much less an armed patrol that will shoot you for trying to leave.

  • Doug Hunter

    #35

    Learn to read & comprehend, I mentioned latino immigrants and african americans. Way to completely ignore the other point. Are you playing stupid again or can you simply not read?

  • Doug Hunter

    Here is the relevant information for illiteracy per the White House social statistics briefing room (whatever the heck that is)

    These are percentages, by race/ethnicity below the basic prose literacy level in 2003.

    Below Basic Literacy

    White 7%
    Black 24%
    Hispanic 44%

    Now, I don’t know how much math skills the general reader has but it becomes apparent that demographic factors are going to override any red state-blue state nonsense. Blacks are 3 times a likely to fail basic literacy and hispanics are 6 times, as both of the groups lean democrat with blacks especially so it’s virtually statistically impossible for republican voters to have more illiterates than democrat voter.

    Now, anyone reading this alone is going to say… who the hell cares and what’s the point? And I’d agree with you. It doesn’t make a position any more right or wrong if minorities, illiterates, whites, college educated, felons, nazis, or homosexuals vote for. This is a specific response to Glenn’s persistent attacks of this sort.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug, Doug, DOUG –

    I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but there’s a whole lot of immigrants and blacks in New York…and if you really want to talk about blacks, then why is it that the District of Columbia is higher on the list than, say, Kentucky or Tennessee?

    What you’re not getting is something I grew up with and Roger already acknowledged in so many words, that all through the South you’ve also got a WHOLE lot of not-really-well-educated whites, also called ‘rednecks’.

    But of course in Doug’s World the fact that Southern states and Red states tend to spend less on education than Blue states do, well, THAT can’t be the determining factor, can it? Golly gee whiz, the fact that Republican states love to cut education funding and give it away as tax breaks to Big Business – gee, that only makes education BETTER, right? And of course the fact that fully 25% of Texas’ teachers have to work second jobs to make ends meet instead of grading tests and homework, well, THAT can’t be blamed for poor education either, right?

  • Clavos

    Mexico has no interest in preventing northern Emigration…

    In fact, Mexico actually encourages and facilitates emigration to the US; it helps with their unemployment problem (which is massive in comparison to the US’), and it provides (in the form of money sent back to relatives by the illegals) significant dollar revenue into their economy (only oil and tourism are greater sources of foreign revenue).

    The advantages inherent in this situation are so great for both countries (for the US it’s a source of cheap labor willing to do scut jobs) that I have long suspected that, on some level, they’re actually colluding to facilitate and perpetuate illegal Mexican emigration to the US.

  • Doug Hunter

    “And of course the fact that fully 25% of Texas’ teachers have to work second jobs to make ends meet instead of grading tests and homework, well, THAT can’t be blamed for poor education either, right?”

    Actually, when broken down by race as I suggested, Texas whites test performance exceeds the national average, Texas blacks performance exceeds the national average, and Texas Hispanics exceed the national average in both reading and math. Whatever they’re doing works better than average.

    Here’s the link, you’ve seen it before it compares union stronghold Wisconsin to poor underfunded Texas (and the national average). Of course Texas whips butt when comparing apples to apples, maybe those teachers second jobs help enrich their classroom perfomance!If classroom spending was so critical, DC would be the smartest in the nation. We have decades of ever larger government, more people on entitlements, and more spending programs and during that time the country has lost it’s manufacturing, lost some of it’s technological lead, and is being caught by others in economic supremacy. I suppose we could keep doing more of the same and see how it goes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Addendum to #29

    In reference to #20, I had no right to impute any intention to your statement, Dreadful. I misspoke.

    @21 – There is no quarrel here with LBJ’s words, Tommy, only with the lightweights such as Glenn and Zing who believe are the carriers of the liberal tradition (still respectable, one might add, fifty years ago). Well, they’re making a mockery of it.

    So yes, the main thrust of my #29 still stands. What started out as an innocuous remark by Clavos about the illiteracy problem in America (and the ramifications as regards voting) was turned by Glenn and zing into a “Negro problem.”

  • Doug Hunter

    I will give you credit for pointing out some outliers. Clearly there is something wrong with West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee as even when controlling for demographics they far underperform in literacy and other factors. Maryland, Florida, and New York do a good job with a diverse population, but there’s a different stream of immigrants and education levels coming there, still, they do a good job.

    It does have value to properly break down states and compare, it’s foolish and simplistic to just say red state=bad without analyzing any other factors.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “… and Roger already acknowledged in so many words, that all through the South you’ve also got a WHOLE lot of not-really-well-educated whites, also called ‘rednecks’.”

    This part we agree upon, Glenn,, except that “rednecks” aren’t limited to the South but come in all forms, shapes and sizes. You’ll find them in California and in New York, in little hamlets and urban centers. It’s not a geographical location any more which stamps “redneck” on anyone’s forehead but a mindset.

    And that’s how I responded to Clavos’s original remark on illiteracy in America (see #3 or 4, I believe), when I remarked that the illiteracy is “functional” in the same way as “keeping women barefoot and pregnant” is functional. The powers that be want a great bulk of our population dumb.

    The idea of restricting the problem to African-Americans hasn’t even crossed my mind. But you (and zing of course) turned Clavos’s remark on its head and made it, as Tommy aptly remarked, a “Negro problem.”

    I don’t need any proof. It’s staring you in the face.

  • Doug Hunter

    From this article.

    DC spends almost double the national average per capita on students $20,956 per student compared to average $10,720 yet has a dropout rate 8 points higher than the national average. Now, if spending was the be all and end all of education they should be going gangbusters, the fact is it simply doesn’t correlate very well with educational outcomes. Certainly there are pockets that could see big improvement with more spending, but the facilities and resources available at the schools I’m familiar with aren’t holding back the students. Technology is bringing better information cheaper and is probably the best bang for the buck in education. Technology is driven by competitive, innovative, capitalism (plus government research). Perhaps those systems are where we should focus,

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    Ah, so you’re sticking to your story that it’s the immigrants and the blacks!

    The most recent state-by-state stats on literacy are from 1993, so I chose instead to use the 2005 high-school graduation rates per state. A high school diploma by no means is a guarantee that one can read proficiently…but it’s a pretty good indicator that one is more likely to read proficiently.

    Now bear that in mind as you look at the following levels of ‘whiteness’ (white alone, and not Latino) for a few states:

    – Maryland is only 59.7% white (4th least-white in the nation), but its high school graduation rate is above average for the U.S. – whereas Alabama (69.9% white), Arkansas (77.5% white), and Tennessee (78.2% white) are ALL below average for the U.S.

    – There’s New Jersey, at 63.6% white, which is also above average on the high-school graduation rate, but Rhode Island – at 80.!% white – is below average on the high school graduation rate list…but before you go pointing at that particular blue state, bear in mind that D.C. and Rhode Island are – as part of the list of states (and D.C.) that are below average, two of the best three.

    – The District of Columbia is only 29% white (D.C. is the most African-American city in the nation), but it has a higher high-school graduation rate than West Virginia, which is 94.6% white, the third-whitest state in the Union!

    And before you go pointing out that I’m leaving Asians out of the equation, Asians are NOT a large-enough percentage in New York (60.9% white), New Jersey, Maryland, or Rhode Island to make an appreciable difference.

    SO IN SUMMARY, Doug, it’s not the percentage of immigrants and blacks that is the determining factor. While the percentage of Mexican immigrants IS a factor, it is NOT the most important factor – otherwise, New Mexico (at 43.1% white) would have a higher HS grad rate than West Virginia (94.6% white)!

    Okay? The biggest factor is the FUNDING. Yes, there is waste, fraud, and abuse in schools just as there are in ANY human organization public or private, but you don’t ‘cure’ education by slashing education funding to the point where teachers have to MOONLIGHT in order to make ends meet (again, 25% of Texas teachers have second jobs in order to make ends meet).

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And Doug –

    Just to repeat, since you’re pointing fingers at D.C.,

    The District of Columbia is only 29% white (D.C. is the most African-American city in the nation), but it has a higher high-school graduation rate than West Virginia, which is 94.6% white, the third-whitest state in the Union!

    If you really want to point fingers at D.C., then you’ve GOT to explain what the problem is with ALL the states that have worse HS grad rates than D.C. does.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    The idea of restricting the problem to African-Americans hasn’t even crossed my mind. But you (and zing of course) turned Clavos’s remark on its head and made it, as Tommy aptly remarked, a “Negro problem.”

    Will you PLEASE stop making stuff up? Here’s a repost of what I said to you in comment #23:

    READ comment #11 – did I say or even imply anything about color there? NO. It was all about illiteracy rates and high school graduation rates listed by state…and the ONLY implication was whether those states were red or blue.

    READ comment #12 – THAT was the comment where I addressed Clavos’ references to ‘oreo’ and ‘Uncle Tom’…and NOWHERE in that comment is any reference to or implication of illiteracy or high school graduation rate.

    SHOW ME ANYTHING I’VE EVER WRITTEN THAT EVEN IMPLIED THAT THE PROBLEM OF ILLITERACY IS RESTRICTED TO PEOPLE OF COLOR!

    But I think that what you’re doing is deliberately being a troll. You’re REPEATEDLY making up accusations and REFUSING to back up those accusations (which Doug at least tries to do) when asked to do so. That is mental cowardice, Roger, and the Roger we once knew would be ashamed of the Roger we know now.

    AND WHAT’S JUST AS MADDENING is the fact that you’re saying SQUAT to Doug Hunter, who is explicitly making it a matter of people of color!

    But that’s the Roger we know now – accuse those who are innocent (because Roger doesn’t like them) but don’t say a cross word to those who are guilty (because they also don’t like the same people that Roger doesn’t like).

    Roger, you need professional help. In fact, from now on, instead of wasting my time asking you to back up your accusations that are obviously false, I’ll just remind you that you really, honestly do need professional help.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, you started it, Glenn, in #8:

    “for every fraudulent vote you show on the liberal side, I’ll show you a thousand registered voters disenfranchised by Republican efforts.”

    Though you may not have meant it, there’s already a suggestion here that it’s the African-Americans who are the main target of the Republican effort.

    It was right after, in #9, that Clavos provided a bait:

    “The real bottom line of this whole “issue” is the fear that the progressives have of losing their client–oops, I mean voter–base.

    This same fear, but for a different reason, is why those same progressives are calling Herman Cain ugly names like Oreo and Uncle Tom — fear of losing a game-changing portion of the Black voters to him.”

    And you fell for it.

    Fast-forward to #14, and zing accuses Clavos of playing a race card.

    My point: Clavos’s original remark, #1, doesn’t mention an “African-American” literacy problem, just literacy problem. Clavos may have implied it (I’m not a mind reader), but he doesn’t say it. To cut to the chase, he ends up being saddled with something he hadn’t said.

    End of story.

  • Doug Hunter

    #48

    Then I suppose you must explain how Utah spends the absolute, #51 including DC, least and yet is top 5 in graduation. You’re the one who started bringing up these statistics and claiming they mean something, not I. You’re the one who must defend the outliers. Most of your examples I had already mentioned as something that should be researched as to what, and what not, to do. I’ll grant you that a model based solely on demographics doesn’t explain everything, but neither does spending, or voting patterns, or anything else.

    The good news is at least you’re adding some nuance to your argument, including demographics. What you’ll find is that as you add new factors to better explain the results a different more complex picture will emerge that doesn’t lend itself to simplistic analysis or blanket statements of what’s best for everyone. Take spending for instance. $40K in rural flyover country buys you significantly more than $40K in downtown DC or NYC. (It’s beyond me why no one considers that with these wierd blanket ‘poverty’ measures that paint everyone with the same broad brush). Nuance isn’t a specialty here I suppose, perhaps it’s our education system.

  • Doug Hunter

    Just taking the first links I found the top three and bottom three spenders (and their graduation rank from your link) are:

    Most Spending

    New York ranked 33 in graduation
    New Jersey 25
    DC 36

    Least Spending

    Utah 5
    Idaho 23
    Tennessee 43

    I don’t see that this really supports your theory, best work on it a bit. I’d start with the fact that we’re comparing current spending to overall historic graduation rates which may reflect policies from decades ago. It still shows that Tennessee sucks though.

  • Clavos

    A high school diploma…[is] a pretty good indicator that one is more likely to read proficiently.

    Given the state of today’s government education system, even that is in doubt. Colleges and universities are now forced to offer remedial reading and writing courses to incoming freshmen — students who have “successfully” completed) twelve years of “education” in the government school system!

  • zingzing

    roger: “The idea of restricting the problem to African-Americans hasn’t even crossed my mind. But you (and zing of course) turned Clavos’s remark on its head and made it, as Tommy aptly remarked, a “Negro problem.””

    show me where i did that, roger. you seem to have done that. but i never did. i even spoke of “non-native speakers” which is something neither clavos or you have been able to pick up yet. what’s up with that?

    clavos then spoke of herman cain, when he said “This same fear, but for a different reason, is why those same progressives are calling Herman Cain ugly names like Oreo and Uncle Tom — fear of losing a game-changing portion of the Black voters to him.”

    at that point, i responded that clavos was playing the race card.

    i didn’t say another word until you came back and said “Perhaps I’m out of the loop here, but when Clavos speaks of illiteracy in America, he didn’t single out African-Americans or any other people of color.”

    well yes, you are out of the loop. no one and i mean NO ONE brought that up before you did. you’re the only one who thought of it. you. no one else.

  • zingzing

    roger: “To cut to the chase, he ends up being saddled with something he hadn’t said.”

    and you’re the one that said it and then attributed it through tortured logic and idiocy to people who had not even suggested it. good job, roger.

  • Igor

    9 – Clavos

    ¨…those same progressives are calling Herman Cain ugly names like Oreo and Uncle Tom — …¨

    That´s terrible! Where can I read about those nasty progressives?

  • Jordan Richardson

    While there’s no indication that the holder of the YouTube account gloriously named “ExposingUncleToms” is a progressive, this guy seems to have it out for Cain in particularly nasty fashion.

    Then there’s this dude, whatever he’s on about. Once again, the Uncle Tom meme is firmly attached to Herman Cain.

    Nasty? Yes. Progressive? Maybe. Does it matter?

    Of course, the trouble with this kind of thing is that it takes away from the real meat of Herman Cain…in that there are a lot of questions about what his policies are and where he’s getting them.

  • Cal

    “The real bottom line of this whole “issue” is the fear that the progressives have of losing their client–oops, I mean voter–base.”

    You mean, fear of the flagrantly unconstitutional attempts by conservatives to block as many people as possible from voting? Yes, that’s something to fear. If conservatives get their way on voting, we’ll no longer be a free nation. But then, that’s exactly what you want, isn’t it?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We’re no longer a free nation, Cal, let’s not delude ourselves by thinking our two-party political system offers us an option.

    So yes, I want to unfree all of us from the tyranny of liberal democracies, American edition. It’s one of the highest accomplishments of our tyrannical system is to convince us that we’re free through our participation in the ballot box, to convince a slave that he or she is not a slave. Just as it is the highest accomplishment of the devil to convince us he doesn’t exist. Good going, Cal.

    In any case, where have you been lately, living under what rock? Have you heard of OWS?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    [edited]

    There I go again, having to respond to such as Cal. I really oughtn’t to.

    Let ‘em stew in their own juices until it’s too late and they cry uncle.