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Eight Dead and Forty Wounded in Arab Terror Attack on Jerusalem Yeshiva

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At approximately 8:30 this evening (20:30) on 6 March, two terrorists entered Merkáz haRáv Yeshivá in the Kiryát Moshé neighborhood of Jerusalem and killed eight students and wounded approximately forty people, as they sprayed the yeshiva with several hundred rounds from Kalashnikov rifles they were carrying.

One of the yeshiva students had a gun and killed one of the terrorists, a resident of Jébel Mukábr, a southeast Arab neighborhood just north and east of Armón haNetzív (where I used to live).

When residents of Gaza heard of the news on their own radios, they broke out cheering, shooting rifles in the air in celebration of the attack on students in a yeshiva.

The first hint of trouble came to me as I was sitting guard in the guard booth at the gate of Ma'alé Levoná. Someone got on the walkie talkie asking, "Have you heard the news?" Asked what news, he answered, "Of a shooting attack or something like that."

I turned up the volume of the radio in the guard booth and minutes before the news was due to come on at 21:00, the announcer on Radio Jerusalem said that there had been a shooting incident in Jerusalem with lots of wounded and two terrorists attacking.

The news came in thick and fast, and it was a task taking notes in Hebrew from the radio and opening and closing the gate at the same time. It was shortly known that several yeshiva students had been killed, and that many were wounded, being taken off in ambulances to Sha'aré Tzédeq Hospital and to Hadássah 'Ein Qérem Hospital, both in the western portions of the city.

As people called in to Radio Jerusalem with reports, the announcers went back and forth between six and eight dead, with fluid reports coming in on those who were wounded and in hospital. By 22:00 it was clear that eight students had been killed and that over 35 people had been wounded. Initial speculation on the terrorists coming from Gaza was ended when it was reported towards 23:00 that the dead terrorist was a Jerusalem resident. By this time, the Jerusalem police brass had already given a press conference indicating that increased police and border patrols would be on hand tomorrow in the Old City when Jews gather to recite special prayers to mark the beginning of Adar Bet, the month during which Purim takes place. The terror attack will put a pall of sadness on the prayers, which are supposed to inaugurate a month of joy with its joyful holiday of Purim.

Reports from Arutz Sheva and Yediot Ahronot contain further details of the attack. It should be noted that Yediot Ahronot has apparently dropped its English site, and denied access to the English version of this article on Arabs celebrating in Gaza.

While any terror attack comes as an unpleasant surprise, Arabs had been opening up the faucet of terror wider and wider since last weekend. It now appears evident from the nature of the increased violence that a period of instability and very possibly a hot war will follow in the not too distant future.

This does not change the fact that eight families now have to do a most painful task — bury and mourn their children and loved ones. In the comment section, I will update this information with the names of the murdered.

Hashém y'nakém damám. May G-d avenge their blood.

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About Ruvy

Hi!! Thanks for coming to my article! I was raised in Brooklyn, was graduated from the City University of New York in 1978 with a BA in political science and public administration there. I lived in Minnesota for a number of years. There I managed restaurants and wrote stories. We moved with our children family to Israel where we now reside. My work can be found at Ruvy's Roost, Jewish Indy,, and on Facebook under my full name, Reuven Kossover
  • JustOneMan

    Wake up America…once these assholes destroy Israel its only a matter of time till they destroy the US by spilling blood or by buying off our moronic politcally correct politicians….

    Ruvy…praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

    JOM

  • Kolobos

    Did you not hear about the terrorist bombing in New York today?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Kolobos is talking about the small bomb blast in Times Square last night.

    Bizarrely, the BBC report quotes the White House as saying that it didn’t appear to be terrorism. [Raises hand] What is a bomb if not a terrorist attack?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I’m going to make one correction to the story now before someone embarrasses me and points it out. The name of the yeshivá attacked should be Merkáz haRáv.

    It should also be noted that this is a very important yeahivá to the religious Zionists who are followers of Rav Kook z”l.

    Many of the ideas you see me espouse here come originally from Rav Kook, z”l.

    And now I have to get to bed. It is almost 02:20 in the morning.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    This is the link to the English version of Gazans celebrating the death of yeshiva students in Jerusalem. Hopefully it will work….

  • mullah cimoc

    Mullah Cimoc say:

    Look like him israeli student school big connect to israeli military.

    How many Palestinian student killed by israeli and no complaint? But when zionist terror enablers are attack so much the big sad?

    This show bias of usa media. For usa media there is never time when wrong for jew to kill muslim and never a time when it is right for a muslim to kill a jew. This the double standard.

    For this amriki society now so destroy. Economic destroy then aemriki to fight aztec for the scraps. AM this the just punish?

  • http://rapturenutballs.blogspot.com Baritone

    You know Ruvy, I hate to be the devil’s advocate as you can imagine.

    The attack this morning was terrible. No question.

    Were the sixty some odd Palestinian deaths in Gaza over the last several days terrible? How many Palestinian families had to bury those dead?

    Of course, they were killed to revenge the persistent Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel.

    The Palestinian rocket attacks were done in revenge for. . .

    Well, let’s see. How far back can we take it? Two years? Ten years? 60 years? Two thousand years? How many attacks? How many dead? How many wounded, crippled, maimed? How many families devastated? How many homes and other property destroyed?

    You and most Israelis hate Palestinians. Palestinians hate you.

    Presumably there will be vengeance for today’s attack. Presumably there will be revenge taken in response. Yada, yada, yada.

    I’m not being sarcastic or trying to be clever or ironic. I know this is an old argument. But, looking at it from outside the lines of the bloody drawing, this is how it looks.

    You can demonize the Palestinians. You can site Talmudic scripture and other historical texts. But murder is murder. War is war. Pain is pain.
    Where does it end? Can it end before all Israelis or all Palestinians die? Can the only solution be that all of both sides die? Do your respective gods demand all this blood for the sake of your disputed so called “holy land?”

    I wonder if you can imagine how profoundly tragic and yet, how incredibly idiotic all this appears to the world outside your disputed borders? Again, I say this without derision.

    How brave must someone be to seriously try to stop all the revenge and consequent death?

    B-tone

  • Bennett

    yikes.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    As promised last night, I’m updating the names of the murdered.

    1. Yochai Lipschitz, z”l, hy”d, 18, of Jerusalem;
    2. Yonatan Yitzchak Eldar, z”l, hy”d, 16, of Shiloh;
    3. Yonadav Chaim Hirschfeld, z”l, hy”d, 19, of Kochav Hashahar;
    4. Neriah Cohen, z”l, hy”d, 15, of Jerusalem;
    5. Roey Roth, z”l, hy”d, 18, of Elkana;
    6. Segev Pniel Avihayil, z”l, hy”d, 15, of Neveh Daniel;
    7. Avraham David Moses, z”l, hy”d, 16, of Efrat;
    8. Maharata Trunoch, z”l, hy”d, 26, of Ashdod.

    Zikronatám l’brakhá ‘aleinu, v’hashém y’nakém damám.

    May their memories be only for a blessing upon our people, and may G-d avenge their blood.

  • Bennett

    “and may G-d avenge their blood”

    but will you let this happen? Or will your countrymen play G-d and seek to avenge the crime yourselves?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    UPDATE…UPDATE…UPDATE…UPDATE…UPDATE…

    First of all, thank you to whomever corrected my embarrassing mistake at the beginning of the article.

    1. The proper name of the yeshivá attacked last night is Merkáz haRáv Kook, the Rabbi Kook Center, but the secularists running Radio Jerusalem, as well as the writers at Ha’áretz and Yediót AHronót call it Merkáz haRáv, refusing to refer to a rabbi whose ideas they hate. This is something I didn’t fully understand until I read the story about the attack at Arutz Sheva.

    BACKSTORY

    2. To understand all this more thoroughly, let’s go back to my hastily composed article and fill in some of the details that ought to have been put in, but weren’t, partly due to my desire to file a story quickly, and partly due to my problems understanding Hebrew.

    I wrote in the article Initial speculation on the terrorists coming from Gaza was ended when it was reported towards 23:00 that the dead terrorist was a Jerusalem resident. By this time, the Jerusalem police brass had already given a press conference indicating that increased police and border patrols would be on hand tomorrow in the Old City when Jews gather to recite special prayers to mark the beginning of Adar Bet, the month during which Purim takes place.

    I listened to the press conference and there was considerably more to what was conveyed to the press than this announcement. Reporters were trying to get an accurate description of who had killed the Arab terrorist, there being a question of whether he had been a yeshivá student or a soldier. In what amounted to a smackdown of reporters’ questions, the police spokesman insisted that it had been an IDF soldier who had killed the terrorist, refusing to go further in his description.

    Now let’s look at the Arutz Sheva story and find out the truth:

    The attacker entered the yeshiva and opened fire on students before he was gunned down himself by a part-time yeshiva student, aided by an off-duty army officer from the neighborhood. The attack began in the seminary’s library with the terrorist spraying bullets in every direction before anyone could react.

    The part-time yeshiva student who first shot the terrorist, 40-year-old YitzHak Dadon, said he was in the Yeshiva’s study hall when he heard the shots. “Everyone left through a side door,” he said, “and I left through a window, and lied down on a roof overlooking the library… When he came out, I shot him in the head twice. I saw him start to stagger, and then David Shapira [a yeshiva graduate and paratroopers officer] arrived on the scene, shot him with his M-16 rifle, and then we emptied our magazines into him.”

    State-Run Radio Leaves Dadon Out of Report

    Dadon was interviewed on various television and radio channels and told his story. When describing what the terrorist was wearing, Dadon emphasized that he was armed with a Kalachnikov rifle that was given him by “our President Peres and by the Olmert government.” The interviewers invariably tried to cut him off. Later, the official news report by government-run Israel Radio left him out of its reports, announcing only, “An IDF officer who lives near the Yeshiva heard the shots, came to the scene and shot the terrorist to death.” That report still appears on its internet site as of 10 AM Friday.

    So the bitter reality is that the Olmert government had armed the terrorist who killed the yeshivá students by handing out Kalshnikovs – paid for with my tax money – to Arabs so that they could “secure” the PA.

    What a pile of shit.

    The plan was, when Olmert gave the Arabs the weapons, that they would be used to kill “settlers”, as the scum refer to people like me, with the goal of scaring us out of their homes. But Arab bloodthirstiness won the day, and any Jew was a target.

    3. This then will determine the nature of the response to this terror attack.

    The appropriate response would be to say nothing and DO the following:

    a. Send in three or four combat brigades to the Arab cities in Judea and Samaria and massacre all the terrorists there, no matter which Arab group they belong to.

    b. Declare the Palestinian Authority at an end, and announce that the entire territory of Judea and Samaria was being annexed to the State of Israel.

    c. Request that the Kingdom of Jordan grant Jordanian citizenship to the resident Arabs here, AFTER agreements had been reached with individual mukhtars, mayors and clan leaders, that no terror actions would be launched from each individual jurisdiction involved.

    d. Expel all UNWRA offal officials from the refugee camps and have Israelis take over the governance of the camps. Have military forces enter to kill all Arab rebels within.

    e. Cut off all water, gas, food and fuel to Gaza, and retake the Philadelphi Corridor (on the Egyptian, Gaza border) with orders to shoot to kill any Arab or foreigner to the region who approaches the Corridor. In addition, all food should be prevented from entering by sea by sinking all vessels attempting to reach the Gaxa coast. However, no raids, other than air raids to prevent the Arabs from having food, water or fuel, should be undertaken at all, and no Israeli soldier should be put at risk in this exercise.

    f. Finally, if the United States government or the EU or anybody else protest and complain, declare their foreign ministers etc. persona non-grata on the soil of Eretz Yisrael. Egypt should be warned that any attempt to interfere with the foregoing would result in the destruction of the Aswan High Dam, an act that would effectively destroy Egypt.

    None of the above will happen. Instead a “response” will occur that will only prolong the agony of war for both Jews and Arabs. More funerals will take place, both at Jewish and Moslem cemeteries, and more parents will mourn loved ones.

    Eventually, in the coming weeks or months a massive missile attack will destroy the structure of this traitorous government.

    Shabbat Shalom u’Hodesh Tov,
    Sabbath peace to you all and may we have a better month, blessed with joy instead of marked by death.

    Reuven

  • troll

    Baritone asks: “Where does it end?”

    killing is a matter of individual free will…it will end when each of us decides not to participate

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    troll,

    I guess you either cannot read or refuse to understand what you see. I have provided a solution to the problem that allows me to sit down with my Arab neighbors and work with them, a solution that allows me to tear down the village gate and that allows Arab and Jewish kids to play together instead of trying to kill each other.

    In my previous essay, I said that we would have to go beyond the ideas of Rav Meir Kahane, z”l, hy”d. The ideas in my previous comment go beyond his ideas.

    I didn’t type “they must go,” a typical Kahanist response. I prescribed the execution of those who murder and who advocate the murder of innocents.

    I didn’t call for “punitive” responses. I outlined a solution that would allow all of us to live in peace, aiming our hostility against those who would divide us against each other.

    There is a sharp distinction between the two that you and many others miss.

    It is my considered opinion that in the final analysis, Arabs want to live in peace – but they have been misled for nearly a century by fanatics who worship death rather than G-d. These fanatics must be cleansed from Arab society – just as the secularist fanatic élite who hate G-d and who ruin our lives here must be cleansed from our society.

  • http://www.my-virtual-income.com Christopher Rose

    Hmm, mass murder of a group of people presented as a rational solution, where have we seen that before?

  • troll

    Ruvy – any ‘cleansing’ process that involves killing will simply perpetuate…killing

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Hmm, mass murder of a group of people presented as a rational solution, where have we seen that before?

    Ruvy – any ‘cleansing’ process that involves killing will simply perpetuate…killing

    The facts are gentlemen, that neither of you have a solution. A “Palestinian” mini-state is a non-starter; the Arab “ruled” lands are divided and too dependent upon the Israeli economy as it is – any “Palestinian” mini-state will need to federate with either an Arab state like Jordan, or with Israel.

    I’m at least providing something that can work, and most importantly end the Arab refugee problem that has been created artificially as a thorn to vex us. Taking over and closing the refugee camps can be accomplished by building homes for Arabs (trust me, Arabs know how to build) to live in. In addition, it would end a lot of the foreign (read American and European) influence that ruins lives here.

    In the final analysis, we do not need you – you need us. We are providing the creative ideas (that’s what all those start-ups are all about) that keep your economies going. If we do not need to kow-tow to your bullshit countries, with its bullshit culture, and bullshit ideas of exploitative economics, we can solve the region’s problems easily.

  • troll

    free and fair trade
    private micro funding for factories
    pre 67 borders
    right of return
    etc

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Final news update before the Sabbath.

    One of the big questions that vexed people was how the terrorist (apparently, there was only one) got into the yeshivá in the first place. Apparently he was a van driver who drove a lot of the students from their homes to the yeshivá (many schools provide such a service – partly because of Arab terrorism) and he knew which gates were guarded and how to get in and out.

    So, now, one of the questions will be, “should Arabs be allowed to drive vans with Jewish students in them?” This is not an abstract question of law or discrimination. This is a real issue of lives at risk. Yesterday’s attack demonstrated this fact.

  • http://www.my-virtual-income.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, the more you yammer on like this, the more you remind me of another loudmouthed extremist, the Rev Ian Paisley. He blustered on for years and years saying never and no a million times to making a deal with the Irish republicans and then did.

    Thankfully though, you’re not involved in politics in any meaningful way, you’re just an extremist having tantrums and shouting from the sidelines whilst entirely failing to acknowledge or apparently even understand how things actually get done by responsible adults.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Ruvy,

    Thanks for writing this article. I think it’s important that the story of terror attacks in Israel continue to be reported. In the US, the media generally makes passing reference to “militant” attacks on Israel, usually after a story about the oppression of the Palestinians.

  • Dan Miller

    Having little better to do, I am sitting here in peaceful Panama re-reading Sir Winston Churchill’s “The Gathering Storm.” I would encourage others to read or re-read it as well. It has at least marginal relevance here in view of Venezuelan President Chavez’s recent peace loving provocations.

    In 1933, the Oxford Union passed an interesting resolution: “That this House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country.” We are certainly living in “interesting times” now as well.

    Of course, that is ancient history and, therefore, obviously irrelevant in the modern world. The fact that the Oxford Resolution, which well reflected the pacifist outlook of Great Britain up until the failure of “Peace in our Time” brought to Europe by PM Chamberlain in 1938, is equally obviously irrelevant.

    The problem is, however, that when we decide that history is relevant only when we remember it as well as we remember the names of the current pop tarts, we tend to create problems for ourselves.

    Twenty odd years ago, I was arguing a case before an appellate court and commented that something or other (I no longer remember what) was “irrelevant.” One of the judges winked and replied, “but Mr. Miller, an Irrelevant [elephant, I suppose his pun meant] never forgets.” How soon WE forget.

    How long will Israel and the rest of the civilized world pursue “peace,” as Great Britain did until war was trust upon her as the only remaining option? There is, obviously, peace in death. I sincerely hope that we are not all striving for that variety of peace.

    Dan Miller

  • http://www.davidbenariel.org David Ben-Ariel

    I don’t blame Annapolis (as it is merely a symptom of Israel’s spiritual sickness), because Israel has only itself to blame. Why? They chose – in effect – to become an accessory to every Arab terrorist attack against innocent Jewish men, women, children, and babies in strollers…and even against Gentile kibbutz volunteers and tourists. Here’s how…

    Truth or consequences: Israeli leaders, and the Jewish people, rejected the preventive measures called for by Meir Kahane against such mass murder attacks that Jerusalem has suffered again; Israeli leaders, and the Jewish people, have failed to remove the threat clearly presented by their resident sworn Arab enemies as the Law of Moses commands (Malachi 4:4) and treacherously chose the lying peace process instead, living a lie and dying because of it, suffering the curses for disobedience (Daniel 9:11).

    Will the Israelis, will the Jews, repent and confess Kahane was right and act accordingly?

    Israel’s Betrayal of the Jews

  • http://rapturenutballs.blogspot.com Baritone

    Well, then, if peace and cohabitation is not an acceptable end, then I guess might makes right.

    What is the state of the Palestinian military? What of the Palestinian air force or navy? Not much, huh? So, Israel, kick some ass!

    Then, the only recourse, and apparently the only honorable thing for Israelis to do is to commit genocide. Kill ALL Palestinians. It’s the ONLY tenable answer. Kill all of them. You can shoot them. You can blow them up. Hey, you could gas them! I think the logistics can be worked out. There IS an existing model of this type of extermination somewhere, isn’t there?

    Keep in mind, as has been pointed out, this is part of god’s design, so it’s okay. Apparently, god put the loathesome Palestinians on the planet so that the Jews could exterminate them. So, do it already, so we can all finally move on. Be done with it.

    B-tone

  • Arch Conservative

    Welcome to planet earth.

    Same shit.

    Different day.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Re: Comment #22.

    David, please be more specific in your statements. The “Israel” you are referring to is the State of Israel; it is the G-d hating secular governing élite that has brought us to this low condition that we are in.

    If you are going to refer to the “People of Israel” also be clear in whom you mean. The People of Israel are not just Jews; they are Pathans, and quite possibly groups of Celts and others. If you are going to refer to Jews, again be clear. There are Jews living here, and Jews living overseas.

    You and I are both making accusations, accusations that can eventually result in trials and executions. When making accusations that can ultimately cause another’s death, it is very wise to be very specific.

    You would not like it if people pointed a finger at you loosely with charges that could result in you dying.

    Indeed, too many at Blogcritics and elsewhere talk about this region with just such carelessness and laziness of thought.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Barry Chamish’s question to this article in Arutz Sheva about the Merkáz haRáv Yehiva was:
    “Yeah, and where was a guard guarding your precious students?”

    The answer to his question is found in the following article about the attack on the yeshiva, also from Arutz Sheva.

    [Jerusalem Police Commissioner, Aharon] Franco also said in an interview with Channel 2 TV that the killer did not fit the standard Palestinian Authority terrorist profile. “He is not known to the security forces. He was a normal man who worked as a driver, who was going to be married soon,” he said.

    The murderer, 25-year-old Ala Abu Dheim, had operated completely under the radar, stockpiling ammunition and weapons, some of which remained after the attack. Abu Dheim also personally chose the target and time for the attack after spending considerable time observing and gathering intelligence about the yeshiva, it was learned.

    After dawn prayer services this morning, over wine and crackers, we discussed the terrorist, and the incident. He had been admitted to a rosh Hódesh (head of the month) celebration like any other person would have been, following the basic rules of hospitality of the Patriarch Abraham, and the rules of hospitality of any Bedouin, for that matter. In addition to being a murderer, the terrorist violated the very basic rules of hospitality prevalent in this part of the world.

  • http://rapturenutballs.blogspot.com Baritone

    Ruvy,

    That last may be rather an understatement.

    As my comments have been pretty much ignored, I assume that they are thought to be either hopelessly naive and/or too timeworn to be worthy of comment.

    I will just say this, though. Assuming Israel responds with some kind of attack against the Palestinians, doesn’t it seem logical that they will respond in kind?

    As loathesome as the attack on the Yeshiva’ was, have you or anyone in Israel given thought to how and why a people would be reduced to such heinous acts? Do you truly believe that they are all simply inherently evil?

    My little rant above about killing ALL the Palestinians, while meant to be over the top, is a scenario far more possible than the reverse, unless pretty much the entire muslim world came down on Israel. But, on their own Palestine hasn’t a snow ball’s chance in the Sinai.

    Israel has far more fire power than the Palestinians – a large, well trained, well equipped military machine. As there really isn’t what can reasonably be called a Palestinian military, certainly not one that could launch any kind of significant combat campaign, what means, other than attacks by stealth could they reasonably maintain? The Palestinians see their plight as desparate. In their eyes they are hanging on by a thread for their very existence. If the situation were reversed, how desparate, what type of heinous attacks might Israel – or anyone else for that matter – feel it necessary to carry out? How depraved can people become? Any people?

    I am not “for” Palestine However, I must add that in this circumstance, neither am I “for” Israel. All of you are human. Israelis AND Palestinians have a right to exist. Israel has a right to exist. So, too, does a Palestinian state.

    Or. Maybe my “kill them all” scenario wasn’t so over the top after all.

    B-tone

  • MAOZ

    “…stockpiling ammunition and weapons, some of which remained after the attack.”

    It remained, no doubt, only because Dadon and Shapira stopped him dead in mid-massacre.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    As loathsome as the attack on the Yeshiva’ was, have you or anyone in Israel given thought to how and why a people would be reduced to such heinous acts? Do you truly believe that they are all simply inherently evil?

    Baritone, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that Arabs were inherently evil. You did.

    Unfortunately, I don’t have to give much thought as to why the Arabs influenced by the Wahhabi commit such heinous acts. The Wahhabi, in rebelling against the Sunni khalifs, committed them all the time for over two centuries, killing fellow Arabs. In acting against us, the “nationalist” Arabs were following the Wahhabi play book.

    The reasons are simple. They do not have power in this country; they want power. So they use any weapon at hand, and spraying yeshiva kids with bullets is just another weapon to be used, in their eyes. Any weapon to get power is fine with them. That was their philosophy in rebelling against the rulers of Arab countries over the last two centuries, and that is their philosophy now.

    Their actions aren’t a judicious use of terror; their actions constitute an indiscriminate use of terror. There is a difference. Eventually, the indiscriminate use of terror either breaks the enemy (in this case, us) or angers them so thoroughly that they commit massacres to gain vengeance. They (and their many allies in the American government and European Union) are hoping for the former. I’m banking on the latter.

    Arabs and Moslems not under the spell of the Wahhabi look at us in a very different light. They may not see us in the friendliest of terms, but they are not interested in exterminating all Jews. And they know that their own holy book, the Qur’an, gives US CHILDREN OF ISRAEL perpetual ownership over this land.

    You need to look at all this through more than just your narrow Western eyes to understand it – if you indeed wish to understand it at all.

  • http://rapturenutballs.blogspot.com Baritone

    Ruvy,

    My eyes aren’t “narrow” at all. I see it all through a much larger lens than you do. If you can’t discern the futility of what’s happening over there, then you are a victim of your own myopic “spell.”

    I don’t care how you paint it, all of the violence is based on revenge. You refer to the Wahhabi as if all of the violence is spawned by them. It’s a two way street. Discriminate or indiscriminate – whether its an individual blowing him or herself into a pink mist amongst hapless people eating in a Tel Aviv cafe’, or an Israeli aerial attack killing families in their homes, the result is the same. People are dying – men, women and children. Frankly, that seems pretty indiscriminate to me. Don’t talk politics. Don’t quote from religious texts. It is simply two distinct groups who have hated each other for millenia. The Israeli “cause” is no greater nor more worthy than that of the Palestinians. You are all people who want to live. Unless all of you give up the idiotic penchant for vengeance, it will never end. You are fighting and dying over the same piece of dirt. It ain’t holy ground. It’s just dirt.

    I actually love the phrasing used by mullah cimoc above – “so much the big sad.”

    B-tone

  • Cannonshop

    Baritone, I think I can address the whole cycle-of-violence argument by pointing out a couple of things-historical things-that you’ve glossed over or ignored.

    Israel didn’t fire the first shot, the Arabs did, in the period immediately following the withdrawal of the British Palestinian Mandate. It opened, in other words, (at least, the current round of madness) before Israel was even a STATE.

    What you’re missing, in other words, is that the Palestinian/Arab world doesn’t want peace, they want dead Jews. Lots of Dead Jews. As many as they can manage, and if they can get that, AND paralyze the rest of the infidel world at the same time, they’re going to go for it. this is NOT something you can negotiate, it isn’t a situation where they’re going to get tired of it, or where futility and reason will set in. It’s about erasing the ‘stain’ of Unbelievers, and the embarassment of four invssions defeated in less than twenty years. erasing the humiliation of a pan-arab alliance being smashed by Dhimmi-lesser people who should, by their lights, exist as exploitable second-class citizens and essentially slaves.
    They’re infuriated that their “Holy places” are in the hands of unbelievers. In short, it’s NOT GOING TO STOP.

    If “Land for peace” and “Roadmaps” worked, there would not be artillery rockets falling almost daily on civilians, there would not be suicide bombings paid by the Saudi, Syrian, and other Arabic sponsors. If Appeasement worked, Israel would be at peace.

    It doesn’t work, because the only thing that will appease the Muslim world, would be to build some big ovens and hold a live action re-enactment of the Holocaust.

    In short, you don’t negotiate with people who want you to choose between extinction or slavery, you kill them before they kill you.

  • http://rapturenutballs.blogspot.com Baritone

    Well, I don’t think I’ve missed all that. But, you are certainly correct. It’s not going to stop.

    But, neither is it a new or unique situation. People have been at similar loggerheads pretty much throughout history.

    I understand how the radical muslims are thinking on this, but it’s an error to believe that ALL muslims, or ALL Arabs are of the same mind. The Israelis cannot be fully absolved in this mess.

    And at the heart of all of it is religion. My god against your god. Our holy book against yours. It’s all bullshit which does nothing but get a lot of people killed.

    B-tone

  • Cannonshop

    Actually, it’s got nothing to do with God, and everything to do with MAN. Islam is founded on the idea that one should be subservient to the will of god, that one should and must accept the judgement of the Almighty, also known as Allah.

    From a purely outside point of view, it strikes me that the will and judgement of Allah was rendered in nineteen seventy three when the pan-arab armies were defeated decisively in spite of having better gear than their opposition, a superior strategic position, a strongly workable plan directed at an unprepared IDF that was crippled by internal politics and armed with hand-me-downs and equipment they didn’t have spare parts for. (the M-48’s the U.S. gave them had serious issues with their hydraulics and were powered by gasoline engines, making them virtual deathtraps, the IDF didn’t have an effective counter to Soviet-supplied SAM systems, and were caught flat-footed and out of position. The Arab armies even had numerical superiority…)

    In spite of all the usual advantages, the Arabs LOST-badly, in some areas against up-gunned SHERMAN tanks or half-tracks with what amounts to scavenged weapons and armour. The Arab forces had artillery superiority, (both positional, and quantity), numerical superiority, a built-in fifth column inside the territory of Israel itself, Israel was under an arms Embargo (the reason for the Kfir), had fewer tanks, personnel carriers, cannons, and jets, and their jets were…well, inferior in terms of speed, range, armament, and numbers, being older Mirage and Mirage-copy Kfirs.

    in every aspect save training, the Arabs had a decisive advantage that SHOULD have guaranteed Egyptian rolling stock and Syrian troops shaking hands on the crater of the Knesset.

    So, following their own fundamental truth, at what point does one acknowledge that “God doesn’t want you here?”

    It’s not about god, it’s about ego, it’s about SECULAR power, and it’s about hating Jews as a distraction from the miserable conditions that prevail in that dusty (censored)hole known as the Middle East-particularly those areas of the Arab world that lack the black-gold.

    Keeping it boiling is to the advantage of nations like Syria, because it generates cheap, exploitable labour. Palestinians are welcome to work the oil-fields because they work cheap, and they’re welcome to blow themselves and their children up in Israel, because it keeps the stupid peasants distracted-they can blame all their problems on Jews, and have a warm feeling every time Jews die explosive, messy deaths at the hands of “Martyrs” (read:pawns), and thanks to the nice, built-in double-standard of the Western Elite, when the Jews shoot back, they can reap a pity-party that advances their eventual goal of genocide against Jews, Christians, and Druze, aka the enemy-of-the-moment. Deprived of that enemy, you get what you saw in the iran/iraq conflict, where SOME muslims are more muslim than others, and therefore have the right to Jihad on THEM (Shi’ite vs. Sunni, Sunni vs. Azami…)

    Just as the Christian world IS responsible for the Crusades, the Islamic world IS responsible for Jihad-regardless of their religious motivation, there has been ZERO effective backlash against “Jihadi” operations within Islamic nations. There’s a REASON that those rockets are fired from Syrian-occupied Lebanon, and there’s a REASON the militants feel safe siting them in civilian neighbourhoods.

    It’s because, in the minds of the people who live there, they DO represent the Islamic World.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Israel has a right to exist. So, too, does a Palestinian state.

    How nice of you to tell me that my county has a right to exist. How fuckin’ generous of you after we have bought it with gold, blood and tears.

    A “Palestinian” state does exist – it’s called Jordan. About 80% of the population there are “Palestinian” – properly known as South Syrian – Arabs. So now I have a question for you. Who the hell are they and why do they rate so high that they deserve yet another state?

  • http://rapturenutballs.blogspot.com Baritone

    Well, if I’m so full of shit, if none of what I claim is accurate, then have the fuck at it. Kill them all and glory in your hard won victory over evil.

    Don’t give me that bullshit that god has nothing to do with it. God has EVERYFUCKINGTHING to do with it. You believe you are god’s chosen. Anyone opposing you is opposing god. If the Arabs lost their place in god’s eye, then fuck them. God will pat you all on the back for it.

    With that fight won, then turn your attention to any jews are not jewish enough.

    B-tone

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Baritone,

    Your knees and lower back must be bothering you again…. I’m not being sarcastic or snotty here, but based on what you have said elsewhere, I put about 700 lbs. of pressure on my own own knees with every step I take, and having read what you wrote, I can only pray that G-d does not allow the laws of physics to take the toll on me that they are taking on you.

    I asked you a question. Let’s repeat it here for you benefit: A “Palestinian” state does exist – it’s called Jordan. About 80% of the population there are “Palestinian” – properly known as South Syrian – Arabs. So now I have a question for you. Who the hell are they and why do they rate so high that they deserve yet another state?

    I’d like an answer.

    I will make one observation, though. For an atheist who hates Christianity and appears to impute its faults to all other religions, you make a very wise statement: God has EVERYTHING to do with it. That doesn’t just apply to the war here; it applies to everything in the universe, including those pains in your back and knee.

    I hope you are feeling better today.

  • http://rapturenutballs.blogspot.com Baritone

    Ruvy,

    I posted an answer to your last comment, but it seems to have disappeared into the ether.

    I wrote (more or less) the following:

    First, thanks, I am feeling better. I will reserved my kudos to god, though, for the time being at least.

    It seems apparent that the Palestinians do not consider or recognize Jordan as their home. I am not schooled enough in all of that to render an opinion. However, I don’t know that there is an official quota or limitation on how many countries a particular group may call their own. There is certainly more than one muslim state. There could be, I suppose, more than one jewish state. Considering that Israel is largely made up of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants, there is little in the way of established history for your presence there. In that sense, Israeli roots are not deep.

    Again, though, I feel that all of that – who got there first, who has rightful claim to the supposed “holy land” should be irrelevant. The problem is what happens NOW. If it’s not possible for Israelis and Palestinians to co-exist, to in some way share or in some way combine use of the holy places, what is the answer? Considering that all three of the monotheistic traditions come essentially from the same womb, that your one god is the same why the violent schisms?

    Why, do you suppose, your god would allow this horrible situation to develop? To me, its like the classic tease – a sought after woman allowing all her suiters to fight amongst themselves for her attentions, stringing them along for her own amusement, ultimately not caring a whit for any of them. “Oh, Miss Scarlett!”

    Also, a thought occured to me during my first effort at this comment: Our often heated discussions aside, I think you and I could actually get along pretty well. But the god thing is a biggy.

    B-tone

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    WEDNESDAY UPDATE…WEDNESDAY UPDATE…WEDNESDAY UPDATE…

    It is now already six days since the attack on Yeshivát Merkáz haRáv Kook. Since that time, the head of the yeshivá, Rav Shapira, declared Ehud Olmert persona non-grata on the grounds of the yeshivá, and the Education Minister, Yuli Tamir, threatened to close the yeshivá alleging it does not have democratic standards. According to Arutz Sheva, Israel’s state-run media organ, the IBA, accused the accusing Merkaz HaRav rabbis of approving a revenge attack planned by three former students to avenge the murder of eight students in an attack last Thursday. The vague report, which relied heavily on unnamed sources, was quickly picked up by the Associated Press and published in papers worldwide under the headlines: “Yeshiva graduates plan revenge attack against Arab figure.” According to the Arutz Shewva report, the Yeshiva officials said the report was completely baseless, and pointed out that no arrests have been made based on the allegations. Yeshiva head Rabbi Yaakov Shapira has mentioned repeatedly in addresses to students not to seek revenge.

    The yeshivá is threatening a libel suit.

    In the meantime, the Israeli power-holders, pretending to be a government, have caved to American pressure, according to the Jerusalem Post, and will not launch massive attacks to attempt to erase the threat of Katyushas, Grads and Qassams on the cities of southwestern Israel. Instead, it will seek a cease fire “with Egyptian intervention”. In short, to please the American bitch, Condoleezza Rice, Jews will continue to remain under mortal threat – another case Israelis dying to please Bush or Rice. According to the Post, both Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, unwilling or unable to admit their lack of balls, denied on Monday, that there was any kind of negotiating process with Hamas,
    and insisted that the IDF “retained its freedom of action” in the Strip.

    But that is just the offal stinking up the news.

    This letter came to my e-mail today, and is the real reason I’m sending out this update – to illustrate the ties that bind us Jews together in spite of the evil regime that scatters fear and despair.

    This is the text of the e-mail.

    From: Israel Kaplan
    Subject: Letter from Jerusalem that I would like to share with all of you.

    Every morning I take the 35 bus line to work. It’s a quick ride and usually takes no more than 12 minutes. The third stop after I get on by the shuk (open air market) is directly in front of Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav. This morning I found myself a bit anxious, unsure of what I was going to see as we passed by. As I looked around, I saw death notices pasted all over the street and flowers that had been brought lined the entrance to the Yeshiva. When the bus pulled up to the stop, the driver shut off the engine and stood. With tears in his eyes he told everyone sitting on the bus that one of the boys killed on Thursday night was his nephew. He asked if everyone on the bus would mind if he spoke for a few minutes in memory of his nephew and the other boys that were killed. After seeing head nods all over the bus he began to ! speak. With a clear and proud voice, he spoke beautifully about his nephew and said that he was a person who was constantly on the lookout for how to help out anyone in need. He was always searching for a way to make things better. He loved learning, and had a passion for working out the intricacies of the Gemara. He was excited to join the army in a few years, and wanted to eventually work in informal education. As he continued to speak, I noticed that the elderly woman sitting next to me was crying. I looked into my bag, reached for a tissue and passed it to her. She looked at me and told me that she too had lost someone she knew in the attack. Her neighbors child was another one of the boys killed. As she held my hand tightly, she stood up and asked if she too could say a few words in memory of her neighbor. She spoke of a young man filled with a zest for life. Every Friday he would visit her with a few flowers for Shabbat and a short dvar Torah (explanation of the Torah) that he had learned that week in Yeshiva. This past Shabbat, she had no flowers.

    When I got to work, one of my colleagues who lives in Efrat told me that her son was friends with 2 of the boys who had been killed. One of those boys was the stepson of a man who used to teach in Brovenders and comes to my shul in Riverdale every Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur to be a chazan (public representative who chants the prayers) for one of the minyanim (congregations of at least ten men).

    We are all affected by what goes on in Israel . Whether you know someone who was killed or know someone who knows someone or even if you don’t know anyone at all, you are affected. The 8 boys who were killed will continue to impact us all individually and as a nation. Each one of us has the ability to make a profound impact on our world. This coming Wednesday morning, I will be at Ben Gurion airport at 7 am with Nefesh B’Nefesh welcoming 40 new olim (immigrants) to Israel . We will not deter. We can not give up. We will continue to live our lives and hope and work for change, understanding and peace.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    B-tone,

    I had been working on the comment above for a long time (I solved a couple of problems with my computer along the way) and didn’t see your comment until I posted the one above….

    It seems apparent that the Palestinians do not consider or recognize Jordan as their home.

    IN 1970, Arafat attempted to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy. At the time (I was a foolish youth of 19) I hoped he would succeed, so that direct negotiations between Israelis and Arabs could start, or so that Israel could invade and conquer Jordan and have all of the land of the original Palestine Mandate granted the UK by the League.

    In any event, not only did Arafat fail, but the general employed by the king, Zia ul Haq, killed 5,000 South Syrian Arab refugees in putting down the rebellion.

    The Arabs didn’t bat an eyelash at this, and call the accidental killing of a few people by the IDF genocide – and custard heads all over the west and South Asia buy this shit!!

    The bottom line is that no matter what the PA says, and no matter what King Abdallah II of Jordan says, 80% of the population of Jordan is of South Syrian descent, and the Arab folks living in Judea and Samaria all have family across the Jordan River. Those facts on the ground speak louder than the terrorists in the PA or the quaking son of Hussein.

    So in reality, the South Syrian Arabs DO have a state that they should be able to call home. Most of the refugee problem and problem of getting along with Arabs here would be solved in they were all granted Jordanian citizenship. There is no need to dive people out of their homes if they are willing to live in peace. And I am quite willing to live in peace with my Arab neighbors down the hill.

    But the leaders are terrorists, and have the agenda of destroying the Jewish entity here and driving us out of our homes. So they cannot afford to recognize the reality on the ground, the deep tie between them and the Arabs living in Jordan. Once they have this country on the ropes, and they have an officially recognized state, then they’ll probably take another shot at overthrowing the Jordanian government. That appears to be their strategy.

    Our often heated discussions aside, I think you and I could actually get along pretty well.

    Hey, B-tone, there is no reason why two guys who have very diverse points of view can’t converse in a civil fashion. We are people after all, and we appear to have a number of things in common (including a certain amount of stubbornness and an extra pound or two).

    As for religion, just bear in mind that it is not my job to change your mind. Judaism doesn’t require me to convince you to change your stripes. And frankly, now that you’ve gotten past the 60 yard line, why should you? I could only think of one good reason. That is that G-d comes to you in some way and kicks your butt (or talks to you) Himself. In that event, you’d have to be sharp enough to pick up on that yourself.

    There is NOTHING I could do or say to convince you to believe – and if G-d did decide to contact you in some way, and you did realize this, there would be nothing that anybody could do or say to convince you to the contrary. There is a level of certainty that comes with all the questions of age.

    Just something for you to chew on while you are packing goodies (like Ex Lax and Immodium) for your trip to Germany….

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    The is the interview where the reporter tried to cut off the killer of the terrorist for blaming Olmert and Peres for giving arms and ammo to the PLO, arms and ammo used to kill eight yeshivá students last Thursday night.

    The translation of the Hebrew lasts long enough for you to see how the Channel 2 reporter tried to cut off YitzHak Dadon from stating that Olmert and Peres had armed the terrorists.

    Obviously the state president and prime minister did not hand the weapons personally to the terrorist who killed the yeshivá kids. But the policy of arming terrorists is what Dadon referred to, the policy that the Channel 2 reporter tried to interrupt. Channel 1 did not carry this at all on its broadcasts, as it is the government station.

    Put differently, there is plenty of Jewish blood on the hands of the power-holders in this country. They, like the terrorists, deserve the sharp hand of real justice, may it come soon to them.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    The following is a history of what really happened here over the last sixty years.

    The video contains four full chapters that drive home the point that the Wahhabi-influenced Moslem Brotherhood, behind much of passes for “palestinian” nationalism, is behind the death of thousands of Jews over the last sixty years here, and that these Wahhabi-influenced terrorists are the spiritual heirs of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi and racist philosophy.

    This video makes one error in continuously referring to this land as “palestine”. This is the Land of Israel, and so shall it remain, no matter what man tries to change this – for no man nor hand of man shall drive us from this nation or destroy us here. I’m betting my life on that. This is part of my faith in G-d, and I put my life in His Hands, not those of mere mortal men.

  • troll

    …the link works if you remove the ‘%22/’

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Thanks, troll!

  • troll

    Вам, товарищ

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    This Sabbath is the only Sabbath when every Jew must attend synagogue to hear the Torah reading. Why?

    This is not a holiday (though the Sabbath is considered the holiest day on the calendar). According to Rav RaHamim Pauli;

    This is the only Shabbat each year that (according to most authorities), every man and woman are obligated by Torah law to go to Synagogue. On this day, the three verse passage [Deut. 25:17-19] that starts “Zachor” is appended to the weekly Torah reading. By hearing it read publicly on the Shabbat, immediately preceding Purim, we fulfill the Torah commandment in it, “Remember what Amalek [the ancestor and inspiration of Haman, the villain of Purim] did to you.”

    Anyone, who is unable to be present at this reading, should make an extra effort to hear the Torah reading [Ex. 17] that takes place immediately before the morning Megillah reading on Purim, or at least to hear “Zachor” read when it comes up in the Shabbat cycle of Torah readings, as the final verses of the portion, Ki Teitze.

    Amalek is the national embodiment of baseless, irrational challenge. Only when the Jewish people had succumbed to the “Amalek” within them, could they be threatened by the armies of Amalek the nation, as when Amalek attacked Israel “on the road, on the way out of Egypt” as they were headed toward Mt Sinai to receive G-d’s Torah, and their mandate as His people. It was when the Jewish people challenged G-d, saying “Is G-d amongst us or not?”, Then came Amalek and attacked Israel”.

    This is why Amalek and what he represents, constitutes the arch enemy of the Jewish people and their mission in life. Truth can refute the logical arguments offered against it. Truth can even prevail over man’s baser instincts, over his selfish drives and desires: for intrinsic to the nature of man is the axiom that “the mind rules over the heart”, that if a person truly understands and appreciates a truth, it is within his power to implement it in his behavior and ingrain it in his character. But man’s rational powers are not equipped to counter the onslaught of an Amalek who brazenly mocks the truth and cools man’s most inspired moments with a casual “so what?”

    Amalek the embodiment of self gratification, greed, anger, the quest for power and lust may get the better of us. As long as we are imprisoned in our own personal [Mitzrayim], Egypt where our truth was enslaved along with our souls, we face being attacked over and over again by this fierce opponent.

    In the same spirit, this article is taken from the February issue of The Jewish Magazine. In it Harry Fisher, a veteran of the Second World War in the American assault on Normandy and ultimate invasion of Germany under Gen. George Patton, remembers his experiences as a soldier, how Patton dealt with a tricky and deceitful enemy, and the lessons he believes should be drawn from them.

    I don’t agree with him fully, but he has the right idea in terms of going on the offensive and not giving a damn what America or Americans or Europe or Europeans think. Ultimately, it is what we do that matters, not what the goyim think.