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Do Supporters of Socialized Health Care Just Not See the Irony?

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Here we are debating the implementation of health care reforms which will likely lead directly to a nationwide system of socialized medicine, while we have sitting before us direct object lessons in how disastrous and ineffective a state-run health care system can be. All we have to do is look across the ocean or read a European newspaper to hear stories of the ongoing and repeated failures of their attempts at nationalized health care.

The left is eager to dismiss the failures of socialized medicine worldwide and point to irrelevant statistics like life expectancy as if they mean something and wring their hands over the uninsured and call us racists or rednecks or some other sily name to distract from the real issues. But with new examples of how disastrous nationalized health care can be popping up almost every day, their attempts at distraction seem feeble and pointless.

Here’s the lesson for today. An article in the Times of London reports that while the average British citizen waits months to see a doctor and weeks for lifesaving treatment, employees of the National Health Service, in full awareness of the life-threatening inefficiency of their system of heavily rationed health care, have arranged to be exempted from that system and receive priority treatment from private doctors.

Yes, the British National Health system which is so highly admired by our left here in America is such a mess that it’s own employees use taxpayer funds to receive timely and competent treatment in the private sector which they and their patients cannot get from the NHS. They report that in the last three years over 3000 NHS employees have received private medical treatment using public funds.

The argument for allowing this is that these workers are vital to the functioning of the NHS, so getting them treated and healthy in a timely manner helps keep the system running so that customers get better service, costs are kept down and workplaces are healthier. It’s a reasonable argument, but why is it not just as valid for every citizen working in every job in every other industry? Wouldn’t their employers like them to get treated quickly and be healthy and get back on the job? Wouldn’t they like to not have to wait weeks and months to get necessary treatment?

This is what we can look forward to with socialized medicine and with socialism in general, a system where rationing and inefficiency make everyone suffer, except for the bureaucratic elites and other vital public servants who manage to exempt themselves from the system under which the rest of us suffer. I’d laugh at the irony, but the fact that we are actually considering doing this to ourselves is just not very funny.

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About Dave Nalle

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Them thar right-wingers just lovvvvve to use the word socialism in all it’s forms wherever they can as a scare tactic…

    Socialists+socialism=nazism…

    Even implying it in article titles…

    Sooner or later they’ll realize that the public sees right through that and the only ones they’re really preaching to are their own choir.

    groan

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Christopher Rose, do you really have to wait months/years for health care?

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    I’m not sure I understand the premise of this article. Those of you who can afford insured healthcare will still receive it, right? Those that cannot will actually have AN option rather then none. The NHS managers that have private option have it as a perk of their elevated position, just as it is a perk of any management position in any company of a large size.

    That isn’t socialism, that’s just seems like the right thing to do.

    I come from and live in the UK and have experienced the NHS many times (ill relatives, my operations and broken bones, check ups, sniffs and splutters) and it is fantastic but it can be awful. More often than not, it is the former. I’m sure the American system can be magnificent, with some cases of being terrible, but it fails too many people. And I’m not talking about spongers and ne’er do wells who will try to suck the system dry. I’m talking about working people who don’t get insurance and can’t afford to get ill. They need this.

    Just as a post script, my father has just come out of hospital after having his second hip replacement, the care was so good, he was standing on crutches at a wedding exactly a week after his operation. He’s 73.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Simon,

    The true irony, the irony that even the author has missed is this: The United States of America, once the wealthiest nation the planet had ever seen, refused to institute a decent system of health care when it could have well afforded to. Now that the Americans are up to their eyeballs in debt to the communist Chinese, of all people, now that their currency is about to be eclipsed by the yen or the euro, now that the United States teeters on the edge of bankruptcy – now suddenly their government is pushing socialized medicine.

  • zingzing

    dave: “The left is eager to dismiss the failures of socialized medicine worldwide and point to irrelevant statistics like life expectancy as if they mean something…”

    ?

    yeah, life expectancy means something. since when is the average age of death meaningless?

    and you seem to miss the point that private healthcare will still be an option. why do you skip that? did you just want to say “socialism” as much as possible?

    and ruvy, you obviously haven’t been paying much attention.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    zing,

    What’s there to pay attention to? This article is the old “bash the NHS” routine that Republicans and conservatives use to try and kill support for socialized medicine. You seem to forget that I am a PROPONENT of socialized medicine, zing, not an opponent. But even a syndicalist socialist (perhaps especially a syndicalist socialist) understands that you cannot attempt to purchase what you cannot afford. And you Americans can no longer afford to attempt to purchase a socialized medicine system. You woke up too late, and the money is gone. That’s all there is to it.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    yeah, life expectancy means something. since when is the average age of death meaningless?

    It’s meaningless because it doesn’t take into account other factors of the American lifestyle which bring life expectancy down. If you eliminate the deaths caused solely by being more overweight and driving cars more Americans actually have a longer life expectancy than Europeans.

    and you seem to miss the point that private healthcare will still be an option. why do you skip that? did you just want to say “socialism” as much as possible?

    Private healthcare cannot coexist with a “public option” and there is little point in doing most of these reforms without including that provision. Either through direct government management of private plans or a public option we will eventually end up with state run health care unless we follow a radically different course, so it makes sense to look at the failures of such systems around the world.

    Dave

  • http://www.joannehuspek.wordpress.com Joanne Huspek

    Our government is exceedingly short sighted. They can’t see the outcome, or they see it and don’t care. Of course, they’ll have cushy health care options while they push more of the middle class toward the poor end of the spectrum.

  • zingzing

    ruvy, my point was that this certainly isn’t the first time that this has come up. it’s not “sudden” by any means.

    dave: “It’s meaningless because it doesn’t take into account other factors of the American lifestyle which bring life expectancy down.”

    i’m not sure you can really ignore those numbers when calculating life expectancy…

    “Private healthcare cannot coexist with a “public option”…”

    but isn’t that what you were just writing about in the article? how did they pull it off in england?

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Dave Nalle:
    “Private healthcare cannot coexist with a “public option” and there is little point in doing most of these reforms without including that provision. Either through direct government management of private plans or a public option we will eventually end up with state run health care unless we follow a radically different course, so it makes sense to look at the failures of such systems around the world.”

    Dave – private and public healthcare co-exists relatively peacefully in the UK. Now. Anything you’re hearing on Fox News at the moment about creeping socialism and the horrors of European healthcare is simple scaremongering and irresponsible.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Ruvy:
    The myth of debt as a high percentage of GDP equalling brinkmanship with bankruptcy is widely discredited. You only have to look at Japan, Italy, Germany France etc. to know that whilst their economies have been flaccid they are now recovering very well.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I don’t mean to change the subject, but the short video referenced above is, IMHO, more important than any socialized medicine scheme being whined about. My main objection to Americans’ establishing socialized medicine is that you are all broke. If events occur as they appear to be shaping up to transpire, not only will you be broke, but you will remain broke forever.

  • Doug Hunter

    “Anything you’re hearing on Fox News at the moment about creeping socialism and the horrors of European healthcare is simple scaremongering and irresponsible.”

    Scientific studies show death rates from common diseases are much higher in Europe than the US because of lack of funding for screening measures. For example, men have a 19% higher death rate from common cancers. The same thing applies to heart disease, etc.

    Additionally, all the money put into healthcare has resulted in world class research with the US winning 50% of the recent Nobel’s including this year’s. Those discoveries have improved healthcare for practically every person on the planet. If we had taken shortsighted socialist policies years ago and diverted that money from research into universal care everyone would be worse off now.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    You people should know that when Dave says it’s meaningless, it’s because he SAYS it’s meaningless and for no other reason.

    so there

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Ruvy – Monckton is whacko! His climate work has been laughed out (after being pulled apart mercilessly) of most self respecting journals. He advocated quarantining all AIDS sufferers in the 80s. He also wants to reduce Governement by 90% and cede responsibility to the family and community.

    He’s a publicity whore of the highest order.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    This is an excerpt from Health Justice Now;

    Statement of the Week; Senator Chuck Grassley said: “It’s clear this bill is already moving on a slippery slope to more and more government control.”

    Seriously? Since when did spending less on Medicare and Medicaid programs, and handing billions of tax dollars over to the private health insurers become more government control?

    The Senate Finance Committee bill is far from government run health care and much the worse for that. It is a bailout for the insurance companies, whose failing business model looks more and more like a Ponzi scheme, where new premiums are used to pay off the previous unsustainable profitable promises, until eventually money runs out and everyone catches on. Things will continue to get worse until we treat health care as a social necessity (like fire departments) and enact Medicare For All

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I wish we were like France!

    Let’s see;

    National Health care

    Better wages

    Two months p[aid holiday

    National Day Care

    HMMM.

    No wonder France has a longer and Healthier life expectancy

    WAKE UP AMERICA AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Simon, my reference in this article is not Fox News, but the Times of London which is considered the premiere newspaper of the UK and does seem somewhat credible on this subject.

    As for private medicine cooexisting with public medicine, yes it is possible. But it comes at additional expense which leaves us asking why if we have to pay more just to get the same service we get now from private healthcare we would ever want to go to a public system.

    And when you bring up the fact that private care is available in the UK you fail to mention that it has been brought back as an option specifically because of the failure of the NHS.

    Dave

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Doug – That link doesn’t work, I think you have to register.

    I’m assuming that you mean those who are insured have a lower chance of dying from a common cancer or heart disease? I would think so too. Those that die outside the auspices of insured healthcare are forgotten / unused statistics, yes?

    Also, you’ll have to explain how insurance companies contribute to medical research? Bear in mind I work for a Global Healthcare company with one of the largest and finest R&D operation in the world.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Don’t worry, Jeanie. We’ll be like France soon enough. I’m looking forward to the features you overlooked like 30% unemployment, race riots that have been ongoing for 3 years now and double the death rate from the most common and preventable forms of cancer.

    Dave

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Dave,

    irrelevant statistics like life expectancy as if they mean something

    Maybe a long life is not important to you….
    I, on the other hand, want to reach 100+

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    It cracks me up to see the new Insurer commercials…

    Ha Ha Ha, they want to help us with preventative care now!

    When did Insurance Agents start taking Medical Classes?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    FOR PROFIT HEALTH CARE IS KEEPING US SICK!!!!

  • Clavos

    Those that die outside the auspices of insured healthcare are forgotten / unused statistics, yes?

    Actually, no. All deaths are recorded by the Feds and included in all statistical reporting.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Dave – RE Your comment #18, I’m sorry but you’re wrong.

    There are approximately 50 million people in US that do not have any medical insurance cover. That’s why you need a public option, just like you gave one to your thoroughly deserving Veterans and your Aged.

    The Times of London is an good newspaper and the article is credible. However, the private healthcare option is not available due to the failings of the NHS, far from it! Healthcare is available to all, regardless of status. Private practise has always has been been available throughout British history! Private healthcare is available to all but get this, it’s the same Doctors! The advantage that’s worth paying for is that you can schedule your own surgery / treatment rather than relying on enforced appointment times on the NHS. Even to the point that PPP, BUPA et al have built their own small hospitals so they can maximise the patient experience! Therefore it is offered to management grades as a perk of employment that will benefit the company due to flexibility of treatment, should you need it.

    The only difference between the public and private options here is control and individual focus.

  • Clavos

    I, on the other hand, want to reach 100+

    Then stop eating in American restaurants and start exercising, eat way less, don’t drink or smoke, and stay off American streets and highways.

    Then, maybe you might make it.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Dave: RE: #20
    France’s unemployment rate is 9.4% (July 2009) and the USA’s is 9.8% (September 2009).
    Race riots have always been a feature of the turbulent geography of France to to it’s history of Colonialism and as a liberal hub entry to Europe from North Africa.
    France’s life expectancy at birth is two years older than the USA’s (78 versus 80).

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Clavos,

    Have you ever watched You Are what You Eat?

    Gillian McKeith is one of my favorite health experts and we eat very well now thanks to her!

    Don’t Eat Processed Food period!

  • Clavos

    Race riots have always been a feature of the turbulent geography of France to to it’s history of Colonialism and as a liberal hub entry to Europe from North Africa. (emphasis added)

    Exactly.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Clavos – Thanks for pointing out my incorrect assumption earlier on in regards to death rates, so just to clear it up:

    The leading cause of death in the US is ischemic heart disease, you are more than twice likely to die from that than you are in France. Then there is cerebro-vascular disease which is about the same. Then there is cancer of lung, trachea and bronchus which you are more likely to die from in the US. As you are from Breast Cancer. In fact the only thing you are significantly much more likely to die from in France is chronic liver disease.

    The source is the World Health Organisation and statistical base is deaths per 100,000 people.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Clavos – RE #29

    What’s your point? US never had a race riot before?

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Jeannie: RE #28 Gillian McKeith: Please read British Medical Journal article before accepting any of her advice. She is widely discredited in scientific circles.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Simon, #30
    The Capitalist greed of America can be directly linked to Cancer, Heart Disease and Diabetes;
    Lowered standards for nutrition, no real preventative Health care and loosening of all the environmental protections that we have tried to put in place as well as the horrific infusion of toxins in our food, household goods, and personal care products have gotten us to where we stand today!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Simon, #32

    I am not surprised by any bad press for Gillian. People that follow her advice are healthier and avoid all those cardboard boxes and plastic containers full of DEAD FOOD!

  • Clavos

    Leading causes of death in the USA for the year 2000 (latest available stats from the Journal of the American Medical Association)

    The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435 000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400 000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85 000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75 000), toxic agents (55 000), motor vehicle crashes (43 000), incidents involving firearms (29 000), sexual behaviors (20 000), and illicit use of drugs (17 000).

    These analyses show that smoking remains the leading cause of mortality. However, poor diet and physical inactivity may soon overtake tobacco as the leading cause of death.

    According to this report, nearly 40% of deaths in America result from lifestyle issues, including automobiles, not health care issues.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Jeannie: #33 and #34
    Capitalist Greed has nothing to do with diet, that’s crazy talk! Bad diet is bad diet.

    The Gillian McKeith thing isn’t so much bad press as much as scientific disproving of her methods.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    …Monckton is whacko! His climate work has been laughed out (after being pulled apart mercilessly) of most self respecting journals. He advocated quarantining all AIDS sufferers in the 80s. He also wants to reduce Governement by 90% and cede responsibility to the family and community. He’s a publicity whore of the highest order.

    I grew up in the States, Simon, a place I no longer live. But I learned one very impportant thing living there. When a skunk tells you the dam upriver just cracked open, you don’t waste time worrying about the stink of the skunk.

    YOU GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY!!

    I don’t care what kind of whore this Monckton is or isn’t. I was warned a number of times that the United States would cede its sovereignty to the UN. I had trouble stifling my laughter listening to this man. He is being proven right. There is more. America’s troops are overseas and cannot stop the enforcement of this Copenhagen Treaty; they’re stuck in Iraq, Afghanistan and a zillion other places. The man warned of this as well.

    I’m glad I didn’t laugh at this guy. He still respects me. And Simon, his respect is something I value far over yours. He has successfully foretold the future.

    So, you laugh and ignore what I just tried to warn you of. That’s fine with me. When the enforcement provisioins in the Copenhagen Treaty starts stealing your money, you can remember how you laughed at me – and I will enjoy knowing that you and the Americans are being screwed over royally.

    Love and kisses from the mountains of Liberated Samaria,
    ISRAEL

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Ruvy: RE #37

    Let’s be clear here, there is no laughing at anyone and certainly no ignorance. I value respect greatly, both given and received, so don’t feel I am trying to mock anyone. It simply isn;t who I am.

    In regards to your point in regards to the Copenhagen treaty, which one do you mean? The NGO one or the UN ratified one? And why should troops become involved?

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Clavos RE #35 (there are more ercent figures available from teh WHO but in regards to yours).

    According to your report, nearly 40% of deaths in America result from lifestyle issues. So they die earlier than people from France and they die from more preventable diseases. The French, as I’ve illustrated, usually die from terminal conditions (such as cancer and liver disease) but are more likely to die from natural causes!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Simon,
    I wanted to see if there was a response to my comments about the state of our health.
    It does not take a rocket scientist to see the connection.
    I stand by my responses #33 & #34

    My husband and I have changed our diets and I haven’t felt this good in years!

    LIVE FOOD is the answer. Sad, the farmer is paid a fraction of the worth of their product while the processed food giants make a killing. Literally!

  • Clavos

    According to your report, nearly 40% of deaths in America result from lifestyle issues. So they die earlier than people from France and they die from more preventable diseases.

    Correct.

    My first point being that the comparisons of Euro life expectancies to American ones have little to do with the relative efficacy of our respective health delivery systems (NOT health CARE; ours is second to none, it’s our delivery system which is deficient), and the second point being that our adoption of government control of health care as proposed by the WH will have little to no effect on those stats, since they involve lifestyle, not health care issues.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Clavos: #41

    Your Healthcare system would be the best in the world if it covered your entire population! The public option as well as a private option for those that wanted it would probably drive you to number 1. At present in the last WHO figures, you’re ranked at 37 with France at number 1!

    Interestingly, in the 2002/3 Preventable Deaths Amenable to Healthcare WHO study France wins again with only 65 deaths per 100,000 preventable (US was at 110).

    So yes, your healthcare delivery system doesn’t serve your people correctly. You could even argue it’s unconstitutional (ie Health as a Human Rights and all Humans Created Equal etc…) but I wouldn’t start that discussion.

  • Clavos

    . At present in the last WHO figures, you’re ranked at 37 with France at number 1!

    As I and others have repeatedly pointed out, that’s a specious datum, because it encompasses issues having nothing to do with health CARE (as distinguished from Health care delivery). As far as health CARE is concerned, ours is the best, as evidenced by the number of world leaders and others who trek to the US for medical care when they are REALLY sick.

    You could even argue it’s unconstitutional (ie Health as a Human Rights and all Humans Created Equal etc…) but I wouldn’t start that discussion.

    Good, because it’s not a constitutional issue, since there is no mention of health care anywhere in the Constitution.

    Equality is a totally different concept, and trying to include health care distribution issues into it would set an intolerable precedent that could lead to situations such as forced equality of wealth, etc.

    Not gonna happen.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In regards to your point in regards to the Copenhagen treaty, which one do you mean? The NGO one or the UN ratified one? And why should troops become involved?

    Go watch the video again. The treaty is due to be signed in early December, between 6 and 18 December 2009. Troops become involved as an enforcement mechanism. That will occur in the United States. I do not know what would occur in the UK.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Simon,

    This article will give you more information.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Clavos: 43

    The World Leaders go to where the best specialists are for their particular ailments. London, Paris, Stockholm, Geneva, Dubai, Tokyo, Sydney, it all depends where they set up their practices. Sometimes it’s in the States (particularly for sports injuries at which they are exceptional) because they pay very well!

    I’m not arguing that your healthcare is fantastic when you have a good plan and are willing to play top dollar for it but not everyone gets even a basic standard. And that is the problem. That is a gross inequality.

    OK, I’ll ask a different type of question; Do you think that it’s OK that some people don’t get any sort of healthcare cover?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Simon, my reference in this article is not Fox News, but the Times of London which is considered the premiere newspaper of the UK…

    …and is owned by…?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    When a skunk tells you the dam upriver just cracked open, you don’t waste time worrying about the stink of the skunk.

    Indeed not. You worry about why the hell you’re listening to a skunk…

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Ruvy, I’m not sure on Global Warming either, as their is compelling evidence on both sides, but that article is alarmist. It seeks to present polar opinions to facilitate it’s agenda rather than present a balanced argument. Monckton remains a bit of sensationalist.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    And when you bring up the fact that private care is available in the UK you fail to mention that it has been brought back as an option specifically because of the failure of the NHS.

    Wrong. It’s always been an available option. BUPA, the oldest and best-known private healthcare provider, was founded in 1947 – a year before the NHS.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Dr Dreadful – Many thanks, I missed that obvious point! The Times is owned by Murdoch’s News International which in turn owns Foxy News.

  • Clavos

    I had already pointed out that Fox is owned by Mr. Murdoch; I don’t have a problem with that, I don’t find Fox to be any more or less biased than any other American news outlet, just more consistently on the right than the others, which is a plus from my POV.

  • Baronius

    But Clavos, Murdoch is FOREIGN!

  • Clavos

    Do you think that it’s OK that some people don’t get any sort of healthcare cover?

    Not those who genuinely want it but can’t get it, no. However, some estimates put the number of voluntary uninsured (primarily the young) as up to 40% of the US uninsured. I myself did not resign myself to paying for health insurance until well into my forties; I had higher priorities for my money at the time.

    I see no reason to overhaul the entire system just to cover the relatively few unable to get insurance, and even less reason to put it in the hands of the federal government, America’s most inept and wasteful organization. Instead, put those who are uninsured and want insurance (and only them) on Medicare and be done with it. Stop freeloaders by means testing.

    Leave the rest of us alone and keep the government’s hands out of our pockets any further than they already are.

  • Clavos

    Bar, so am I. Remember, I have dual citizenship as well.

  • Baronius

    Exactly, Clavos. People make it sound like we’re leaving our fellow Americans to die in ditches, but we already have a health care safety net. We’re not “uncivilized”. I ran the numbers on this once. I got that the US government spends about $2000 per capita on health care, not counting VA. And that’s just the national government; Medicaid and SCHIP are partially financed by state governments. I’d guess the state Medicaid spending to be another $1000 per capita. The total is probably comparable to England’s $3000 and Canada’s $3400. (These are very rough numbers.)

    We pay for medical care for the poor, for children, for the elderly, for veterans, and for anyone in emergency. We’ve got nothing to apologize for.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Clavos!

    Fox not biased?!

    Seriously? C’mon, it’s pretty much the mouthpiece of the Republican party! It is by far the most biased mainstream news source in the States. Whenever I’m over in the US I watch it for laughs!

  • Baronius

    Clavos (re: FOREIGN), I was making a reference to a funny comment on another thread. That’s bad internet manners on my part, I know.

  • Clavos

    Um, Simon, I don’t think I said Fox wasn’t biased now, did I?

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Baronious / Clavos – Let me just interject in regards to the slightly defensive tone creeping in. I wouldn’t ever knock the US, I love your country, it’s a magnificent place. I really enjoy coming the pond and try to get over at least once a year.

    Sometimes I get irritated as I believe it could be the last chance for western civilisation to realise it’s potential as leader of the free world.

    I have read the artful and noble documents that helped found your country (The Declaration and the Constitution) and find them truly inspirational, so please don’t think I’m a US knocker.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I’m still waiting for Chris Rose to confirm that the U.K. makes patients wait months for health care.

    There’s a lot of bullshit being thrown around here about England’s form of care that would have you believe that there are sick and dying all over the streets of London, England, Wales and Scotland waiting to be stacked up like cord wood to be buried and their government could care less about it.

    No Doc, I’m just waiting for details. This sounds like something that the World Health Organization should be aware of.

    Is that why Mr. Rose fled to Spain?
    If so… why did he come back???????

  • Baronius

    Simon, I didn’t take offense at any of your comments. Anyway, if you visit regularly, you know that no one bashes America like Americans.

  • http://simonjjames.com Simon J. James

    Clavos RE Fox News. Fair Enough!

    Baronius / Clavos – I think we have basically ideological differences in regards to Healthcare Distribution / Provision. I’m a dyed in the wool NHS evangelist and you guys aren’t.

    Fair enough. Let’s have a beer.

  • Clavos

    Simon, Let me say that you are rare bird in these parts: a gentleman who argues well and forcefully without acrimony or sneering.

    Thanks for that.

    We do clearly have differences, but beer is not one of them!

  • Clavos
  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    We do clearly have differences, but beer is not one of them!

    Speak for yourself, Clavos. I’d prefer a good cup of coffee – with some of that good rich (heart attack producing) East Coast cheese cake you just can’t get in Israel….

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Sorry Clavos, but after viewing your link and its sidebars, I’d rather rely on someone who’s actually experiencing it than opinions that are based on slanted facts.

  • Clavos

    You’re right, Jet…

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    In the first three weeks of the season — September 21 to October 11 — cable lost 5% among its three major demographic groups: 18-34, 18-49, and 25-54 viewers, according to new research from media agency group Group M using Nielsen Company data.

    Cable network viewers 18-34 dropped to a collective 15.34 million, down 5.2%; the 18-49 audience went to 16.95 million, off 4.7%; and 25-54 viewers sank to 4.6% to 18.08 million.

    Virtually all the loss came from cable news networks, which are witnessing lower ratings as a group versus that of the big upswing in viewers a year ago, due to the presidential election. Cable news networks have lost a massive 61% of their 18-49 viewers as a group and 54% of their key 25-54 viewers as a group.

    Taking out those news networks — Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, and Headline News — other cable networks are seeing virtually flat viewership with a year ago.

    “Looking at the first three weeks of the season, this only happened once in the last six years, and that was in 2006-2007,” says Lyle Schwartz, managing partner and director of implementation research and marketplace analysis for Group M. “But by the end of that 4th quarter [ratings] had rebounded to basically flat, which is probably what will happen again this season.”

    Broadcasters don’t have much to cheer about in all of this. The five-network average shows declines as well — 4% slippage in each of its main view categories — 18-34, 18-49, and 25-54 — sinking to 9.29 million; 11.23 million, and 13.12 million viewers, respectively.

    —————-

    It seems to me as though Fox being more an entertainment medium for the right-wing has kept its viewership because everyone else would rather be out having fun, instead of being told where and when to scream at a town hall or hand on every word that Beck and Limbaugh said that day.

    Fox news’ core of watchers are more loyal because they’re being better entertained than informed.

    in my opinion

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    It all boils down to this-Fox is successful and growing because it tells its viewers what they WANT to hear, instead of all the facts.

    During the day I watch headline news
    during the evening it’s NBC nightly news

    I don’t watch CNN at night because I want news not to be entertained… The same goes for Fox.

  • Clavos

    You’re right, Jet…

  • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle

    France’s unemployment rate is 9.4% (July 2009) and the USA’s is 9.8% (September 2009).

    Research their real unemployment figures. Counting those who have given up on finding work and are on the permanent dole France is at about 30%. By the same measure the US is at about 15%.

    Race riots have always been a feature of the turbulent geography of France to to it’s history of Colonialism and as a liberal hub entry to Europe from North Africa.

    I don’t think colonialism is the root cause. They had this problem with rioting going back to the middle ages. It’s a problem with France and the French and how they treat their underclass whether homegrown or imported.

    France’s life expectancy at birth is two years older than the USA’s (78 versus 80).

    Which, given their healthier lifestyle, suggests that their health care system is substantially worse than ours.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle


    OK, I’ll ask a different type of question; Do you think that it’s OK that some people don’t get any sort of healthcare cover?

    Simon, do you think it’s okay for patients in the UK or Germany to have double or more the chance of dying from preventable cancer or heart disease than their counterparts in the US because of healthcare rationing, lack of access to testing equipment and long waiting times?

    You see, it all comes out the same. Six of one, half dozen of the other. In the US we allow people to choose not to be insured and that permits us to provide superior service to the rest who do pay for insurance. In Europe the government instead decides that a certain number of people will die and suffer unnecessarily based on the decisions of medical boards and other bureaucrats.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos-/ Christine

    According to this report, nearly 40% of deaths in America result from lifestyle issues, including automobiles, not health care issues…very accurate, Clavos. A proper diet and exercise can help prevention and even cure many diseases today. I’ve helped many not just with weight loss (which alone improves health) but cure many health issues, getting people off of prescription drugs, etc, for over 29 years!! This is not discussed enough in this health care debate! When are people gonna wake up?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I read somewhere that 100% of deaths in America are caused by failure to continue living.

    100%.

    Shocking.

    :-p

  • Clavos

    Sounds like another trumped-up, liberal canard to me, Doc.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Well, Clav, I was just putting it out there.

    I mean for starters, right here on BC Politics we have me, your good self and possibly even Dave showing definite signs of life (if not brain activity).

    Which disproves the statistic straight away.

    :-p

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I am a proud Zombie-American, and we don’t want no stinking healthcare…

    …we want brains!

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I knew it!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    78 – Intriguing comment, Dave.

    75 – I read that too, Dr.D, but it was based on anecdotal evidence, so I figured it wasn’t true.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I am a proud Zombie-American”

    That actually explains quite a bit

  • zingzing

    dave, you should read “pride and prejudice and zombies.”

    “It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains.”

    i also suggest “zombie 2,” an italian movie (i think) that i saw years and years ago that has a scene featuring a zombie (in full makeup) fighting a live shark… under water (as it should be, i guess)… tis awesome. there’s also a bit of wood through an eye part that drives me right up the nearest wall, but you know, such is zombie… life…

    actually, that movie sucks. fulci?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Personally, Dave strikes me as more of a Tinman American.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Clav,

    Speaking of trumped-up canards, I took a shufti at that RealClearPolitics article you referenced.

    I’d hardly call that strong evidence, since the author makes no attempt whatsoever to verify his sources which are exclusively right-leaning newspapers – and in all but one case the newspaper in question is the Daily Mail.

    As Stan has reminded us on several occasions (usually after Mark Manning has used it as a jump-off point for one of of his Oh How It Sucks To Live In Britain pieces), the Mail is not known for its balanced reporting and freedom from hyperbole.

    If the Mail were a person, it would be the disgruntled retiree who spends his time writing letters to newspapers and calling radio phone-ins.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    How many different tunes will Dave play about healthcare?

    Not so long ago [maybe a month?], he was saying the Dems’ health plan was a giveaway to the insurance industry, and that the public option was a meaningless distraction.

    Now the insurance industry has [not wisely] turned on the Dem plan after playing along with it for months. And [possibly by coincidence], now Dave describes the public option as an inevitable step toward the total socialism of health care.

    Your most recent articles are all rhetoric, and really red-faced, ridiculous rhetoric at that. The pieces are brief, short on facts and references, and at least in this case, contradict your own previous articles on the subject.

  • Deanna

    In regards to FOX news… It’s just nice to have ONE media outlet that at least acknowledges ones own point of view with respect! Every other news outlet is vomitrociously slanted to the left.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Every other news outlet is vomitrociously slanted to the left.”

    Deanna, you should try and get out more

  • zingzing

    “vomitrociously”

    good god. my world expands. is this actually a word? i’m not sure if it should be or not. either way, i am intrigued. will i like it tomorrow? i don’t know.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    No one who actually watches or reads other news outlets could say that with a straight face anyway. “Leftist bias” is and has always been a convenient way to say “lack of right-wing bias,” which is what people who say it really object to.

    Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity are not journalists. They are another species entirely.

  • http://cockroachpeople.com Rey Lopez-Calderon

    Too bad no one is proposing anything quite like the NHS, otherwise the article might have been relevant.

  • james

    “Additionally, all the money put into healthcare has resulted in world class research with the US winning 50% of the recent Nobel’s including this year’s.”

    Well actually from 2009 to 2007 it was split between USA/Germany/France and UK

    and the actual individuals were Italians/Australians/Brits/French/Germany/Americans

    If anything the USA population is 5 times the UK or German and so ti should win more but who cares the Nobel organisation is just a bunch of Norwegians sitting round a table

  • james

    Times of London and Fox are owned by the same Company so dont be fooled!

  • A leftist Doctor

    The question of socialism is a moral one.
    As a physician, I took an oath to help others.
    Ergo: all doctors are socialists.
    A free market-objectivist physician is an oxymoron.
    Either you help others or you don’t,
    there is no grey.