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Democrats, The Party of Values or of Opportunity?

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Other than my mention of Wild Bill’s investigative work, I have not mentioned the Foley fiasco. I wanted to hear more about this before I formed an opinion. Oh, I already had the opinion that Foley was a cretin who should never, ever, be allowed to serve in public office again. I think most people agree on this and if it is found he did something illegal he should face, shall we say, stiff penalties. What I have been looking at is the reaction by members of both parties. We have gotten the expected “Who knew what and when” statements that always abound when a member of Congress gets caught with his pants down.

The Republicans are running around finger pointing and can not seem to muster the strength to actually lead. There are accusations about who knew what and how it was withheld. The Washington Times and members of the Party are calling for the resignation of Dennis Hastert. The Democrats, blind to their own misdeeds, are asking us; if the Republicans can not protect our children, how can they possibly protect the nation? I will not rehash the past sexual misdeeds of the Democrats. They are well known and the left would only come unhinged and make all kinds of assertions about justifying the actions of Foley. None of it will be true, of course, but rather than admit there is a cultural problem across party lines they will dismiss the acts of the many Democrats who have been caught in various sexual situations. Hell, they dismissed the murder committed by Ted Kennedy while he was out trying to get a bit of loving from a woman who was not his wife. If they willingly look past a crime like this, it becomes clear why they can easily dismiss the actions of others in their party.

This is all moot because for the most part, what Foley did was allegedly with an underage young man. Contrary to what has been reported, he is not and was not a child, though he was three weeks shy of his eighteenth birthday. The acts took place over several years and they allegedly involved other pages. As far as we know, the only thing the leadership was aware of are some innocuous emails that were overly friendly but not overtly sexual in nature. This could change, but this is what we now right now. After an investigation Foley was counseled not to have any contact with the person who complained and to treat all pages professionally.

Just a week ago, printed Instant Messages (IM) were released and they date back to 2003. This is the first time that anyone, outside a small group of pages, has seen them. Anyone who pays attention to politics knows that it is no coincidence that the IMs were released just 5 weeks before the mid-term elections. I have been intrigued from the start as to the source. You see, only two people had them, Foley and the page. It is only reasonable to assume that Foley would not keep them so that means they originated from the page. If the situation that occurred was so bad that it had to be revealed, why did it take three years to reveal it? We have information today that the IMs were held by several of the pages and yet none of them came forward in the past three years. One would assume that if the situation was so dire they would have reported the IMs when they first took place. But wait, we now have further information that this was all an Internet prank and the IMs landed in the hands of a Democratic operative. I have my doubts about this but if true, it would mean that the page was not necessarily a victim after all. We might not have known this if Wild Bill had not investigated it and revealed the page’s name.

Today, it looks like the beating he took from everyone including Michelle Malkin, might have been a bit premature. He was accused of becoming what our opposition is. Some who have jumped to conclusions have done much the same. Bill was not trying to play gotcha or avenge Foley. He was trying to get at the truth. One needs to ask, do we really have a victim here? Michelle and others are entitled to their opinions, but so are the rest of us.

This is a very strange and continually unfolding situation that will, no doubt, play out in the coming weeks. But while it plays out we need to look at the actions of the Democrats and see if they match up with their words. I have mentioned the past sexual escapades of the Democrats (one of which was sex with an underage page) and I have mentioned how the Democrats rallied around those who were perverts. Many of those involved were supported and won reelection. Did the Democrats get rid of any of them? No! So how does that square with their claim of values? The Democrats are a party that is tolerant of these kinds of acts but only when their members are doing them. Republicans do not tolerate it no matter who is doing it. Now, make no mistake, I am not necessarily speaking of those in office. There are enough of them from both parties that get into trouble and cover for each other. I am talking about the regular folks on the street. We Conservatives regularly bash those in our party who do the wrong thing. We have discussed this on Wide Awakes Radio and we have been as hard or harder on our own elected officials. Democrats are only tough on people from the other side of the aisle. I believe that Foley resigned in short order because he knew he would be skewered by his own party.

The Democrats like to point to things like this and say that one Republican doing the wrong thing is indicative of all Republicans but of course when one of their members does something wrong it was an isolated thing and not a reflection on the entire party. Republicans took money from Abramhoff so they are the culture of corruption but the Democrats who took nearly as much from him as the Republicans are not corrupt. Interestingly, the party that keeps telling us the religion of Islam is a peaceful religion and that we should not judge all of its followers by the acts of a few radicals are the same ones who will judge all Republicans by the acts of a few (or in this case one) wrong, sick individual.

It is not a coincidence that these IMs were made public at this time. While we are investigating who knew what and when we need to get a time line on when the Democrats (those folks associated with Soros) who released them actually got them (and how). If they received them and waited any time before releasing them, as I suspect, then they are guilty of the very things they are claiming about the Republican Party. Once again the political considerations would trump the decent thing to do and that does not add up to a party of values.

One other thing that is important to consider and that is, did the Democrats know about Foley’s problems when they surfaced as they claim the Republicans did? The Congress is not a huge organization and it is very difficult to keep a secret. The New York Times and its “sources” are proof of that. These good ole’ boys in the Congress know of each other’s transgressions and they usually keep them secret. They do not want to risk their own indiscretions being revealed in the process. The Democrats were quite silent on this until the fortunate disclosure of the IMs. Perhaps it is because they were afraid to go after a gay man. That would certainly be turned into a gay bash witch hunt by their opponents. It might even get more traction than when Dean fired some gay guy because his lover made a disparaging remark about the quack Doctor Dean. The Democrats would have to be careful because they would risk exposing what the Boy Scouts already protect against and that is leaving young males with homosexual men in a position of power over them. Why such an uproar by the Democrats in the first place? The Democrats would have been in a position of power. They could have said they are with the ACLU in support homosexual leaders in charge of young men like they do with the Boy Scouts but not when they act badly. Perhaps, they did not say it because they know the obvious conclusions that would be drawn.

In any event, this whole issue is unfolding and there will be a lot of mud slung in all directions. Before anyone starts hurling the mud in my direction keep in mind that I do not condone what Foley is alleged to have done and that if he did these things he needs to pay the appropriate price. I do however, question how some of the things took place and the motivation behind them. I also think the claim of values is way overblown by the Democrats given their history. All of this is separate and distinct from the acts of Foley. I am glad they caught him and he is out but I want to know all of the players who are culpable for placing the pages in this situation.

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About Big Dog

  • BriMan, the Great Depression started on Oct 29th 1929, not before it, but don’t let facts get in the way. The Congress has raped Social Security and left IOUs in it for decades, many of those decades when it was run by your party.

    The Congress, members of all parties, spend money on things that they are not Constitutionally allowed to but that seems to be OK to millions of people as long as they get their gubmint check.

    I passed all the math I ever took and I passed quite a bit of it in private school, so my academic credentials should not be in question. I actually have a job where math is a big part of it and a mathematical error can kill someone.

    The treasury reports they have more money coming in and many economists show that the tax cuts are, at least, in part responsible. Our economic numbers are equal to or better than the last administration’s and we are fighting an expensive war.

    If you want to learn math, don’t learn it from the people who sold you the bill of goods about the budget being balanced int he past. Remove earmarks, cut spending to only essentials, privitize Social Security (so they can’t use it and it will pay better returns)and hold members of Congress to term limits. Then we will see fiscal responsibility. If you want to make people move up in class, try letting them invest their money rather than letting Congress waste it.

  • steve

    arch…that was the first time in a long time someone made me laugh so hard I fell out of my chair. thank you. god forbid if I ever make 200k a year.

  • Arch, you weren’t supposed to reveal that secret. The stormtroopers from the Bohemian Grove Society will be knocking on your door at any moment.


  • Arch Conservative


    You forgot that they give half those checks to George Bush and then all do the secret right wing handshake and celebrate by each downing a big cup of crude oil Dave!

  • In Nancy’s world the rich stand outside the unemployment office and club the poor on the head to take their unemployment checks. Then they run down the street to the post office to mug old ladies for their social security checks.


  • Arch Conservative

    Nancy’s right………..

    we should just gather up all the people making over 200K and execute them because each and every one of them are vile, corrupt, scoundrels, with not one shred of compassion for thier fellow man.

    Oh and none of them pay any taxes……….not one cent……

    Oh and it’s their fault that poverty exists……every poor or lower class person owes all their misery and misfortune to these people.

    Let’s all jump on board with Nancy on the USS Crazy and kill all the rich muthafuckas!

  • Clavos

    Briman #72 says:

    Big Dog-
    The tax cuts brought more money into the treasury?
    That is the most bald-faced lie I have seen you write yet. What a frickin’ insult that is to human intelligence. Did you pass your sixth grade math class?

    Funny, but that’s exactly what the 2006 Federal Budget, just released today, October 11, indicates. The Federal deficit has dropped to $248 Billion, it’s lowest level in four years and down from $319 Billion last year.

    As this article from Reuters states:

    Economists said a 12.6 percent jump in individual income tax receipts was helped by capital gains from a recovering stock market, while the sharpest growth — 27.2 percent — came from corporate income taxes driven by booming company profits.

    Tax cuts do result in higher tax revenues. They did so in the Reagan years, and they’re doing it again now.

  • Nancy

    I wish.

  • Lumpy

    Nancy lives in some bizarre alternate reality where the lies in michael moore films are real and america is falling apart. It’s so 1985.

  • Nancy

    Absorbed into the RICH-?! Oh, man, Dave – you’re drinking again, aren’t you? They’re being absorbed all right, but it isn’t into the ranks of the rich. Re-read some more mainstream economic publications, please, instead of whatever wishful thinking Bush propganda you’ve been subscribing to. Normally you’re sane about stuff & I do like the rest of your writing, but you are SO off base about anything having to do with money & rank-&-file finance.

  • Nancy, the gap between rich and poor appears to be widening because the middle class is being absorbed into the rich while the poor are lagging behind.

    And we’re not talking an increase in billionaires, but a massive increase in the number of people earning 100,000 dollars a year or more.

    And it’s not just 10,000 more people owning stocks, but millions.


  • Nancy

    Au contraire, Dave; the latest indicators by the big think-tanks (including the conservative ones) indicate the gap between the rich & everyone else is widening as never since the Great Depression. Check out this ayem’s WP & recent NYT postings on it. Sorry; you’ve been into that pixie dust again. Altho you are right in that more people than ever have some kind of interest – but in mutual funds, not stocks per se, and mainly in their 401Ks (if they have them at all). That means nothing, however, when you consider that even if only 10,000 more people have stocks now than in 2000, that’s still a “major” increase in the number of people holding stocks, since there weren’t that many to begin with. Kind of pitiful, and again, the numbers are meaningless when you find out what they REALLY indicate, and how many (FEW) people they really are talking about. After all, if there are only 5 billionaires in the US in 2000, and today there are 10, you can argue that there’s a 100% increase in the number of billionaires. But considering your field, that value is moot for anything but political posturing.

  • Nancy, stock ownership in America has spread through more strata of society than ever before. The line between the rich and the middle class is becoming very blurry.


  • Nancy

    Yes, indeedy – and that means that the ultra-rich, who own most of the stocks doing so well, are getting even richer. Aint’ that nice? I’m sure Dubya is pleased.

  • Lumpy

    “Oh, puh-LEEZE, Red; it wasn’t the left that was molesting underage pages on capitol hill…”

    for historical accuracy I suggest you add the words ‘this time’ to the end of that sentence.

    And btw, if you read any reputable source on the economy you’d know that we’re going through an unprecedented period of growth in prosperity at every level of the economy in income and investment and savings. The ‘pixie dust’ is called tax cuts.

  • Nancy

    BD is falling under the spell of Dave Nalle’s economic pixie dust hypotheses that the richer the rich get, the better off the rest of us slaves – uh, peons – uh, working class people – become.

  • BriMan

    Big Dog-
    The tax cuts brought more money into the treasury?
    That is the most bald-faced lie I have seen you write yet. What a frickin’ insult that is to human intelligence. Did you pass your sixth grade math class?

    These neo-con men have raped the treasury. Record deficits, record spending, more & bigger government and bureaucracy than ever before, more intrusion into privacy and human rights, and the largest gap in income since 1929. Do you know what happened just before 1929? Probably not. It was called the Great Depression. The robber barons put our country into a decade-long depression. If it wasnt for low interest rates and a hot housing industry, this economy would be totally in the tank right now.

    And before you write back with your list of rationalizations why Shrub had to spend money he didnt have and how 911 wasnt Shrub’s fault – SAVE IT. It is just another thing that has happened on their watch that they wont own up to even though the evidence against them grows by the week with every new revelation.

    There are good laws and there are bad laws. There are things that are illegal that should be legal (like growing non-THC hemp) and there are things that are legal that should be illegal (like 8 MPG cars). Laws should stand on their own merit is all I am saying – the illegality of something doesnt necessarily mean the law is good or righteous and therefore should not be used as a rationalization by and of itself. So to say that illegal immigrants are illegal end of story – I am not buying what you’re selling. 911 happened with LEGAL immigrants – to me, it is the legal immigration that poses the bigger threat to our well-being. One of the 911 hi-jackers had his visa renewed after 911! What incompetence!

    Like I said – your outrage is totally misplaced in my opinion. Understandable though given your lack of factual background and complete reliance on ideology and talking points.

  • The decider of ILLEGAL would be our laws. Just a guess but that seems like the right one to me.

    The tax cuts benefittd everyone. Of course rich people got more back but they pay more in. The top 10% of wage earners pay about 50 or 60% of our taxes. The tax cuts have resulted in more money coming into the treasury.

    I don’t know your opinion on immigration, but I know mine.

    Oh, puh-LEEZE, Red; it wasn’t the left that was molesting underage pages on capitol hill…

    I might just add, this time.

  • BriMan

    Nancy –
    I have not come out in support of illegal immigration. Read backwards. All I have been doing is pointing out the prejudice, bias, faulty assumption, and bigotry of the RW argument.

    Their outrage is misplaced as usual. Building walls wont solve the problem. I see no analysis coming from them. I see no discussion of cause and effect. I do see lots of denial.

    In other words, pointless idiocy on a topic that they FEEL strongly about but havent given much actual rational researched thought about.

    As far as “illegal” goes, who is the “decider”? (borrowed expression!) That has been my only point on the term. Worth considering if you really want to know about what is happening historically.

  • BriMan

    RedTard – you are really fired up about leftist propaganda. Class and racist warfare – wow!

    Look – the elites (and their apologists) would claim that I am talking about class warfare and they would be correct. I would claim they are waging class warfare and I would be correct. When 2% of Americans control 90% of the country’s wealth, only a slavish fool and apologist would deny otherwise. Let me finish the math for you – 98% of Americans are fighting over 10% of the pie.

    If you are tired of hearing about it, that is probably because it is an old battle. The rich elites are greedy to the point of their own demise. It is in their nature. Trickle down is nothing but trickle on. And when people get tired of being trickled on, they often do something about it. It’s how this country got started…

    Let me explain something about power to you and this will point out the world of difference between you & me – I am an antiauthoritarian. I dont apologize for any authority – unlike you. I dont care who is in power, they will hear from me time and again. I believe it is my duty as a citizen in a democracy to make sure that power understands that I am watching. Cheerleader – yeah right. You wish you could put me and those like me in such a neat little package. Not.

    I am not aware of who Israel Cohen is but your quote is hardly an indictment of any sort. Racial tension is a reality. Until you have been on the pointed end of the stick, denial just makes you look foolish.

  • Nancy

    Oh, puh-LEEZE, Red; it wasn’t the left that was molesting underage pages on capitol hill, despite Fox News’ best efforts to claim Foley is a Dem. Try taking your meds, & lay off the sauce, hey?

  • RedTard

    Briman is a cheerleader of the left’s failed ideology. Leftist regimes have resulted in the greatest genocides in human history, create shortages, starvation, and human misery on epic scales all the while continue to sing the siren song of equality and plenty with enough vigor to gain new converts.

    Class and race warfare are the left’s chief weapons fostering jealousy and envy are it’s greatest pulls. You can see the success it has had fomenting hatred within Nancy, Bri, and many of the others.

    They point fingers wildly at the evil right and long for the day when they can take the helm of the allmighty government and put those opposing viewpoints down.

    Simple logical exercises like viewing the glaring double standard become next to impossible once they progress down the road.

    Leftist Dems actually fondle and fuck real life underage pages and get reelected and standing ovations, an easily verifiable fact. The few remaining active braincells in a lemming simply can’t see that as being any different from a republican resigning in disgrace and being investigated over a few sexually charged IM’s.

    The right still has shame and confusion in these times because they still have morals, the left’s only moral is the desire for power which trumps all others. You’ll never see a leftist hypocrite becuase they don’t stand for anything. Fucking boys, letting you mistress die so you don’t get a DUI, and taking bribes is all right as long as you’re doing it for the only right cause – big government socialism.

    Here’s a little knowledge for you leftist lemmings, an insight into the age old manipulations being put to you not by the evil right, but by your own leaders. Bri invoked race above as a knee jerk weapon above describing the right as “racially motivated”. That’s a page from the early 1900’s commy playbook so eloquently spelled out by Israel Cohen.

    “We must realize that OUR PARTY’S MOST POWERFUL WEAPON IS RACIAL TENSION. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races, that for
    centuries have been oppressed by the Whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party…In America, we will aim for subtle victory. While enflaming the Negro minority against the Whites, we will instill in the
    Whites, a guilt complex for the exploitation of the Negroes.” – Israel Cohen, 1914

    Thanks Bri for being so steadfast, still spouting the same leftist propaganda 90 years after the manipulation was devised. (90+ years and still getting 90 percent of the ‘oppressed’ minority vote, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it!)

  • Nancy

    Briman, I’m on the left pretty solidly, and I don’t approve of or support illegals either. They have NO place in this country, simply & fundamentally because they ARE ILLEGAL. Period. As the tired old saw goes, what part of “illegal” do you not understand?

  • BriMan

    BTW Big Dog –
    I have looked at the auto industry and the airline industry and several other industries.

    What I find are corporate executives skirting ethical (not necessarily illegal) behavior to claim imminent bankruptcy to squeeze wages while pocketing huge sums of cash. GM and Ford both did this when they had a collective $43 billion in cash reserves stashed away. When the unions conceded (which they did because they were being lied to), the execs rewarded themselves handsomely with stock and bonuses.

    While their behavior is unethical, the average person wont know what is actually happening until it becomes illegal because you have to actually look for the information and search out the truth.

    That is something you are probably not interested in though. You have already decided.

  • BriMan

    Big Dog
    Dont you love the cynicism of the right – govt sucks – watch us f— it up and prove it.

    Name all of the liberal presidencies of the last 40 years. If you name Clinton as one then NAFTA is liberal invention I guess.

    You assume that your audience needs your emotional and exaggerated analogies to understand you. You are explaining 2 + 2 while we are differentiating equations. Try to keep up if you can.

    Dont preach to me about law. Your current administration disdains them and ignores them at will. But they are rich elitists so it is OK I guess. You, like most racially-motivated wingnuts, want to apply a double standard. Where is your outrage that Bush is using terror as an excuse to wipe his ass with our Constitution? You are an apologist for lawbreakers on the right hand and scream about illegals on the left.

    I have been busy poking holes in your irrationalities and have yet to actually offer what my opinion about undocumented workers is. You see, I dont have to. Your position is so riddled with hypocrisy and overstatement that its much more fun to shoot the big dog on the porch.

    The money divide in this country is the largest it has been since 1929. CEO’s outspend labor unions on political issues 1000 to one. But labor unions are the problem. So are falling coconuts in Alaska.

    Shrub’s tax cuts for the wealthiest 10% cost twice as much as job training, college Pell grants, public housing,, low-income rent subsidies, child-care assistance, insurance for low-income children, meals for shut-ins, low-income energy assistance, and all other forms of welfare combined. (If anyone would like to see the links to this data – just ask) But people like you think liberal spending is the problem. You hear it so you believe it. You never bother to look at the objective data. It confirms your preconcieved world view – the strongest type of propaganda there is.

    As for education, Bush passed an unfunded mandate called “No Child Left Behind”. You can thank him for making a serious problem worse.

  • Bri Man, you really need to get new material and learn WTF you are talking about. First of all, the idea of taking over the house is to bring it to a level you might actually comprehend. When people enter ILLEGALLY, they are breaking the law. You need no more fucking reason to get rid of them or prevent them from entering. It is against the law is a good enough reason. I suppose if I were unemployed and starving it would be OK for me to rob a bank, because I need the money. Of course it would not just like NO EXCUSE is good enough to justify why they are breaking the law to get here. They are breaking the law. The problem is dumb ass liberals do not view laws as something to obey.

    As for the economy. Perhaps you should learn math. The donks were in control for those 40 years you talk about. The economy and the labor market has been ruined by labor unions and their demands for high wages for relatively unskilled work. Labor unions have caused a lot of problems and they are losing membership rapidly. Because of the high cost of union labor, many companies go elsewhere. Hint: Look at the auto industry and compare America to other auto manufacturers.

    Our economy works without cheap exploitable labor but employers are going to use it if it is available. If we had fewer of them the market would drive wages and the minimum wage you libs cry about would adjust to meet market demand.

    The last thing that your Joe six packs need to realize is that the American work force has been dumbed down by a tragic educational system. Our workers can not compete because they are too stupid. High tech jobs go to workers from other countries while our folks fight with the Mexicans for the unskilled work. Another wonderful thing, government run education.

  • BriMan

    Clavos – thanks for amplifying the debate. “Illegal” is just another label for someone when someone doesnt want that someone around.

    Big Dog continues with the base emotional ploy by continuing to talk about “people taking over his house”. The tactic is well-worn but easily got around. Any analogy taken to an extreme to make a point merely proves how baseless the point is to start with. If the point didnt require such exaggeration, it would be self-evident.

    The conservative economy would not work w/o cheap, exploitable labor. The RW push to gut labor laws that protect workers, the crony-filled bureaucracies (like the NLRB), refusal to increase the minimum wage and the backing by politicians of corporate elite’s efforts to redefine and exempt certain job descriptions from being union-eligible are all part of the effort of an immoral conservative economy.

    Any worker who backs the Republicans is ultimately backing his own demise. Even after 40 years of conservative economic policy, the RW noise machine does a great job of convincing Joe Six-pack that all of his problems are due to limosine liberal policy. That he is willing to believe something like this even though it is coming from the mouth of a millionaire is really sad.

  • Clavos

    ILLEGAL immigration is not so old, at least not in this magnatude.

    True, but not the whole truth. When my Irish ancestors came over in the mid nineteenth century, there were no laws regarding immigration (so, technically, no illegal immigration). No quotas, no visas needed, no security checks–nothing except:

    When they landed, the only thing that happened was their names were recorded (usually incorrectly by the semi-literate government employees doing the job), and then they were cursorily checked for communicable diseases. If none were found (which didn’t necessarily mean they were disease-free), they were allowed in and that was it.

    And why was this so? because they were needed to do the work that needed doing–in other words, exactly the same reason why all these people are coming today, and why so many already here want to see them come.

    And once they were in? They got work, sure (and begorra!), but they were heavily discriminated against and treated like second class citizens for a couple of generations. What did they do about it? At least in New York, where my ancestors settled, they did a very American thing: little by little, they TOOK OVER the city–they elected their own (remember Boss Tweed?), they sent their sons to be cops so that all their shenanigans wouldn’t be interfered with. Some were so good at stealing, they became very rich (Joseph Kennedy?-I know, he was in Boston, not NY), and very powerful. The All-American story.

    That said, the present chaotic non-system sucks.

    BD says:

    We should not be the dumping ground for every country with people living in poverty.

    I agree.

    But the vast majority of those coming are, like my ancestors, looking for work. Work which exists, and which in some parts of the country, is not being filled (Miami & South Florida, for example).

    We need to establish and enforce a viable guest worker program attractive enough to both the immigrants and native workers that everybody’s happy. It CAN be done. But first, we need to stop throwing invective around (from both sides) and sit down and formulate a workable plan.

    The plan MUST include ways of identifying and deporting those who don’t work and become a burden on our infrastructure, it must be limited in scope, and it must be limited as to the amount of time a worker can stay, it should not culminate in citizenship, and it should allow the government to determine WHERE in the country the guest workers will go, to prevent surpluses in some areas and shortages in others, and so that native workers willing to take the available jobs are not displaced.

    There is a need, and there are people willing to fill that need.

    It should be a no-brainer…

  • Dr. Kurt

    I know that this is kind of off-topic, but if the KKK and the Neo-Nazis are avid fans of the Minutemen (which they are), then I have a hard time supporting ’em, regardless of any other facts. What’s the old line about “if you’re for it, I’m against it?”

  • Sorry, when the your first act in this country is an ILLEGAL one then you have no foundation. Immigration has been an issue for a long time, ILLEGAL immigration is not so old, at least not in this magnatude. People started taking advantage and the government helped them. You can call the Minutemen what you want. If someone were to invade my house and decide they were going to live there and the government would not remove them or prevent them then I would resort to taking matters into my own hands.

    The issue with the country is the same but on a much larger scale. We should not be the dumping ground for every country with people living in poverty.

  • BriMan

    “There is a legal way to get here, they should use it. Screw them, we did not cause their economic problems, their corrupt government that is full of rich guys who screw their people did. Let them fix that mess and stop sending it here.”

    It is very arguable that we are not part of the cause for their economic problems. How many farmers have been driven out of business because its illegal to save their seed thanks to genetically-modified products and the questionable patent laws surrounding them. There are numbers of these kinds of circumstances brought on by American-based multinationals involving land, water and other resources that have exacerbated poverty south of the border. Are you really not paying attention or you just dont hear what you dont want to hear?

    “Yeah Briman you ought not to regurgitate rumors and offer them up as the truth.”

    I didnt offer it up as truth – I said:
    “I dont know if the claims are true or not but they are in essence terrorizing people who are more appropriately referred to as economic refugees.”

    Everyone who commented on the veracity of this statement has chosen to overlook my point which is you dont need truth to terrorize people – especially ignorant people. The KKK didnt need to hang but a few blacks and talk about hanging more in order to terrorize hundreds of thousands. That in fact was their goal. Terror.

    And the Minutemen are no different as far as their goals are concerned. They are terrorists – just the kind that the RW approve of. The list of approved terrorists is quite long. You really should study more objective history.

    “Immigration has been an issue for the past 4 or 5 administrations.”

    Immigration has been an issue for the greatest part of American history. If you bothered to actually read about the subject, you would come to understand that the excuses being trotted out by Nancy, for instance, are as old as the issue itself. Havent you heard of the Great Potatoe famine that resulted in waves of Irish immigrants? These people were vilified as well – and so were the Italians and European Jews and…

    Lowering every person who enters this country illegally to the least common denominator is a prejudicial scare tactic. It attempts to appeal to people’s base emotions of fear and insecurity. You have all obviously reacted to that. Reason not only no longer prevails – it isnt even part of your equation.

    I admit to the appeal of most RW ideology – it is simple, black-n-white, confident in its conclusions and assumptions and essentially colorless. I personally reject this because I believe the world is complex and colorful and interesting. There are many causes for various effects – some of which none of us are privy to. That is why I dont assume that just because someone is illegal that they are bad, drug-running degenerates. Not everyone fits in your RW shoes – bruthuh.

  • Well, I think it is clear. The SCOTUS has had differing interpretations with regard to the issue and finally settled on the current one.

    I think it can be legislated without an amendment. I believe that jurisdiction was originally used because of the issue of slavery. I do not think it was meant for every person who walks in. Certainly they are subject to the jurisdiction for legal issues but once again, if they are breaking the law there should be no gain (like a murderer not being able to cash in on a book about the crime).

  • Clavos


    I understand your point, but the question you raised was:

    The Constitution is clear that if the person is not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, then the baby can not be a citizen.

    And my point is that anyone living in the US or its territories, regardless of how they got here, is subject to its jurisdiction.

    It HAS to be that way, otherwise, we would not be able to prosecute foreigner criminals who live here, nor require foreigners to abide by our laws. In fact, that’s the essence of jurisdiction–the right to require residents to abide by the laws.

    Furthermore, every sovereign nation on earth considers the question the same way–If you live there, you’re subject to its jurisdiction.

    If you want to close the “anchor baby” loophole, simply make it illegal for children born of illegal residents to automatically become citizens.

    However, I think that would require a Constitutional amendment.

  • Well, certainly the SCOTUS has decided that but it is not implicitly written and earlier rulings did not address it. That is why there is legislation to keep anchor babies from being an issue. The changes will require at least on parent to be a citizen.

    I think the SCOTUS decision is flawed. No person is supposed to be allowed to benefit from an illegal act.

  • Clavos


    If the parents are residing in the country, legally or illegally, they are subject to its jurisdiction.
    If they commit a crime and are caught, they will be prosecuted.

    All foreigners resident in US are subject to its jurisdiction, with the possible exception of persons with diplomatic immunity.

    I was born in Mexico of American parents, as were both my siblings. All three of us (but not my parents) hold dual citizenship.

    And not just US, either. Try committing a crime in say, England, or Australia and see what happens.

  • I don’t know why we need a bill. The Constitution is clear that if the person is not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, then the baby can not be a citizen.

    Amendment XIV Section 1

  • Nancy

    The irony is that Foley was pushing a bill to withdraw automatic citizenship to children born in the US to illegals. Wish the stupid jerk had stayed long enough to get it through, pages or no pages. IMO illegals are more of a threat to American than any terrorists. The terrorists are just more theatrical about it.

  • Nancy,
    I agree with you about 50% of the time and this is one of those. I understand your hatred for the current administration and that is something you are entitled to. However, I would caution that the immigration problem is not some new thing that popped up during Bush’s watch.

    Immigration has been an issue for the past 4 or 5 administrations. When we had our last immigration reform sponsored by Ted Kennedy it allowed a lot of immigrants to stay through an amnesty program. This, we were told, would curb the influx because the Congress would put a tighter grip on it. They failed in that and now we have about 3 times as many ILLEGALS as we had then.

    Bush is not blameless because he has a weak stance on the issue. Congress, concerned about pandering to the ILLEGAL as well as the legal Latino vote, is limp wristed over the whole issue. This is a problem that goes back years and will probably take years to repair.

    How effective does Congress think it is to put up a 700 mile wall on a 2000 mile border? Next time some Congressman wants pork money for a road or a bridge what say we limit him to 35% of the project. Imagine a bridge in Alaska that only covers 35% of the span. That is about how effective a 700 mile wall will be.

    We need to get rid of members of Congress who will not take this issue seriously (regardless of party).

  • Nancy

    The Minutemen are hardly vigilantes, nor are they the KKK; they are concerned citizens who are enforcing immigration LAWS that BushCo & the cowards in congress refuse to enforce. If illegals get hurt in the process it’s their own fault for breaking the law to begin with. A goodly percentage of these “poor, brown men” some of you are so sympathetic to are drug runners & coyotes, bringing in cocaine & heroin that destroys Americans of all colors. Perhaps you should reconsider your sympathy, because it’s certainly wildly misplaced. Just because these people are poor does NOT give them the right to overrun this country at will, nor does it give mismotivated,foolish citizens the right to likewise violate the laws & become co-conspirators & confederates by aiding & abetting them. IMO any such persons citizens or not should be charged not only with felonious harboring of criminals & abetting drug running or human trafficking, but with treason as well. In any event, we certainly shouldn’t be putting out water or other comforts to assist these vermin with their criminal trespass.

  • Arch Conservative

    Yeah Briman you ought not to regurgitate rumors and offer them up as the truth.

    Would you like to provide some eveidence of the Minutemen

    1. being armed
    2. terrorizing brown skinned men
    3. engagign in any other racist behavior

    it is all the rage ont he left to make stuff up about their opponents when they cannot beat them witht he facts. The types of students who attacked the minutemen at Columbia are the same types who believe that America’s borders must be subject to the desires of any person in the world who wishes to enter our nation for any purpose.

    if you want to take the word of a bunch of whacked out socialist.communist malkcontents who are so very out of touch with what the average american believes that’s your perogative Briman.

    As for the minutemen hitting the protestors first. Well if that is the case I’d say it’s justifiable self defense. I mean there were what 5 -10 minutemen on stage and they were being rushed by at least 50 – 60 screaming bonehead protestors.

    These protestors are a bunch of self absorbed losers. they take one or two classes in world affairs and are lectured to by some leftist zealot professor and all of a sudden they are saviors of all the opressed and downtrodden in the world. Hey you in the che shirt “you’re parents still paying for everything you do? Give me a fucking break will you.

    I can only imagine the uproaor among the liberal media that would occur as the result of a bunch of conservative college kids behaving toward a liberal guest speaker as these columbia imbeciles did.

  • Viva la 9mm and 45 cal

  • Lumpy

    Viva la revolucion!

  • BriMan, That is a bunch of horse shit. We are not terrorizing “brown” men. We are trying to keep people who do not belong here out. Only a dumb ass would allow uninvited guests to take over the place. If we have people in this country doing wrong things then we have laws to take care of that. They are citizens and we can deal with them.

    I guess if it is OK for ILLEGALS to walk on in you would have no objection to a homeless family showing up and entering your house without your permission and then staying and sponging off you.

    There is a legal way to get here, they should use it. Screw them, we did not cause their economic problems, their corrupt government that is full of rich guys who screw their people did. Let them fix that mess and stop sending it here.

  • Donnie Marler

    “The Minutemen are armed vigilantes. There have been claims that they are harming and killing people. I dont know if the claims are true or not but they are in essence terrorizing people who are more appropriately referred to as economic refugees.”

    Claims made by whom, may I ask? Make up your mind, brother. First you say there have been claims, then you say you can’t verify the truthfulness. Make up your mind.
    To help you along a bit, an unsubstantiated ‘truth’ is called a rumor.

  • BriMan

    The Minutemen are armed vigilantes. There have been claims that they are harming and killing people. I dont know if the claims are true or not but they are in essence terrorizing people who are more appropriately referred to as economic refugees.

    There are some very rich people in this country who are doing all sorts of illegal things. If we took up arms against them, we would soon be termed all sorts of bad things. Who lobbies for the poor right?

    The vast majority of people they are terrorizing are brown-skinned. Why? To make us all safer? The 911 attacks were carried out by people who were legally immigrated. The border protection excuse is exactly that.

    This is another hypocritical aspect of RW policy. It starts with Reagan’s “Mr. Gorbachev – tear down this wall!” to Shrub’s “We gotta build a wall to keep ’em out – heh, heh”.

  • And all this time I thought the malady Minutemen suffered from was premature immigrant rejection.

    Thought I was going somewhere else, huh? If you want to know about P.E. see Frist, Hastert, Robertson or Falwell.

  • I don’t know how you figure the Minutemen are the KKK without the sheets. They are watching the border and reporting people who are coming here ILLEGALLY.

    Sorry, but that does not equate to someone rounding up legal citizens and hanging them for the color of their skin.

    Using this “logic” we can equate the students to the Islamofascist idiots who riot every time someone farts. Students there are nothing more that Islamofascists without the Mohammad in their name.

    And BTW, the minutemen report everyone they see crossing regardless of color so the example lacks foundation.

  • BriMan

    Arch – they already got a fistful of teeth. I watched the tape and the student protesters were violently attacked by the Minutemen.

    I dont agree with the method the students chose to use even though the Minutemen had the floor for 45 minutes prior to the protest. A protest outside of the event would have been most appropriate.

    And for a group (the RW) who continually shoot down conspiracy theory, I find it hypocritical to suggest that professors and school administrators put the students up to this. That is ideological claptrap and simply speculative at best.

    The Minutemen have a right to say want they want and I would defend that. But they are, simply put, the KKK w/o the sheets. They are provocative on purpose much like the KKK and their marches down Main St. southern USA.

    The willingness of the RW world to overlook this aspect of the debacle and indict say the University administration for allowing something they had no control over is simply astounding to me. Talk about in your face cynicism…

    Besides who named the Minutemen anyway – their wives? (see I can wallow in the gutter with all yall too)

    PS Arch – I think you have invented a new ideology – left-wing fascism!
    You need to get a dictionary – those are incompatible terms. The term would be left-wing SOCIALISTS. Watch your oxymorons…

  • Nancy

    I went to college when I was a few months short of 17, and I didn’t act like that, any more than I do now. I guess in the Old Days we wuz raised better’n that.

  • And to think two years ago people were speculating about the complete demise of the Democrat Party. Oh what a difference a blow job makes.

  • Donnie Marler

    Any fool is free to exercise their right to free speech.
    Only I can make myself listen to them.

  • Did you notice the anti-freespeech posters? That’s what I found most offensive. One of them read “no free speech for racists”? Which I hope will be followed by “no free speech for socialists”.


  • Arch Conservative

    AHHH Columbia University………

    Yes the elitist intellectualist leftists response to an opposing argument?

    Throw a temper tantrum and scream and yell so the other side can’t be heard.

    Thank god those magnificent leftist champions of free speech that we are giving 20-40K a year to educate our children are truly ensuring open and honest debate and free speech for all.

    This just makes me sick as does any moron who would deny the left wing facist culture that permeates our higher education institutions like a deadly cancer.

  • JustOneMan

    Great example of the “tolerance” of the left! These punks should have been arrested, suspended and/or thrown out of school! Even free speech has consequences

  • Clavos

    Sorry, Nancy, but people who behave like that are children even if they’re 60.

    College students in general are pretty immature and still VERY impressionable, which is one reason why their leftist professors are able to induce them to behave like spoiled brats.

    In any case, they may legally be adults, but I’ve met few youngsters below the age of 25 that I don’t think are still children.


  • What if they are in college but are only 17? Are they still young adults who should know better?

    Admittedly, there are not a lot of people who are 17 in college but there are some depending upon when their birthday is.

  • Nancy

    It used to be in the stone age when I went to college that if you disagreed with or despised the speaker, you boycotted the speech, but you still gave the speaker the courtesy of letting him/her speak. And if they’re college age, they aren’t children, they’re young adults & should know better.

  • Clavos

    It’s disgusting and appalling to see the results of what these children are being taught as the appropriate way to exercise their freedom of speech.

    This “demonstration” was so egregious that even the university’s liberal administration was forced to issue a statement deploring the behavior of these hooligans and bullies.

    If I had a child of college age, I would sooner send him/her to the local junior college than allow the kid to be exposed to that kind of thinking.

    Ivy league indeed.

  • That incident where the Minutemen were attacked at Columbia really exposes the ugly underbelly of the academic left. Here’s a link to the Columbia Spectator which features video and images of the protestors and some of the signs they were holding up. Very disturbing.


  • Nancy

    We need to crucify EVERYONE involved, of either/both parties, who glossed over Foley’s behavior in order to retain power. Unfortunately, that seems to be solely the province of the Republicans this time around, since they refused to even advise the few Dem members on the various committees of what was going on. Talk about setting themselves up to be hanged with their own ropes.

    If you do know of any Dems involved, BD or Arch, then please post the names. I promise I’ll call for their heads as well.

  • Mohjho

    You may be on to something Big Dog.
    Its obvious the Republicans don’t have the courage to turn in one of there own even when children and sex are involved.

    Please give us the names of the Democrats involved with exposing these scumbags so we can thank them for doing the right thing.

  • BriMan

    For Justoneman – so the word “black” automatically conjures up visions of racism for you?

    You really need to expand your worldview, undacova bruthuh.

  • BriMan

    So Abramoff had a few Dem lobbyists on his staff and he did what for the Dems? Funneled them hundreds of thousands? Payed for overseas vacations? What did he do?

    Let me tell you – he hired a couple of Dem lobbyists because every lobbying firm has lobbyists for both parties. It gave him the sheen of credibility and allowed him to market his bipartansanship. But his financial dealings do not lie! Follow the money!!

    Undoubtedly, the Dems do get Indian gaming money. But were they taking gambling money with the right hand and then using the left hand to fund anti-gambling, pro-Christian groups with a big cut for themselves?

    If you believe they did then you are a buffoon or are in a serious state of denial about what Abramoff was doing.

  • zingzing

    no, i’ve never heard that at all.

  • Clavos

    For zing and any other doubting thomas:

    Here’s a link to Columbia University’s official Public Relations Office website in which the administration deplores the behavior of their students during the Minutemen presentation.

    It says, in part:

    This much is a matter of core principle at Columbia: The freedom to speak, to pursue ideas, and to hear and evaluate viewpoints totally objectionable to one’s own is an essential value of this university and, indeed, of our civil society. We defend the right to peaceful protest and expression of opposing views. But it is never acceptable for anyone to physically take to a stage and interrupt a speaker.

  • JustOneMan

    “never heard such a thing”

    Liar, liar pants on fire!!!!

    PS – Is that calling or “IMing all Gays”

  • zingzing

    do they? have they? never heard such a thing. please expand upon this.

    HEY, GAYS!!! calling all gays! were you molested by an older gay man?

  • JustOneMan

    Briman…your racists…
    “The pot trying to say the kettle is black.”

    black is no longer acceptable its African American!

    Gee how insensitive!

  • JustOneMan


    “are you saying that gay men are pedophiles? or whatever you call it…”

    Well why do the majority of gays claim to have been molested by older gay men?

  • zingzing

    well, i certainly didn’t look for bill oreilly or front page. ick. i’m sure there is another side to the story.

  • Arch Conservative

    Oh and here’s a link to the washington post for you Briman

    [Arch, if you’re posting links, please follow BC protocol and make them active. This is a reminder of how. Thanks. Comments Editor]

  • Arch Conservative

    zing all you have do do is go to google news and type in columbia

    either you’re an idiot or you havn’t been looking long

  • Arch you don’t have a hell of a lot of room babbling about double standards…

  • zingzing

    archie, show a link for this minutemen-columbia showdown. i’ve been looking for anything about this, and can’t find a thing.

  • BriMan

    Puhleeeez – your source is the RNC???

    The pot trying to say the kettle is black.

    I like the way they said “linked”. I guess that means the dollar in my pocket is “linked” to Abramoff too since it was printed in the same place his money was.

    You are going to have to do better than that. Try an objective source if you even know of one…

  • Arch Conservative

    Oh and yes there were Dems who took Abromoff money.

    Hate to break it to you Briman.

  • Arch Conservative

    You make some very valid points about the double standards applied to Dems and Reps Big Dog.

    I mean Foley sends sexual emails to an underage page so he has to resign but it’s ok for Bill Clinton to pardon Mel Reynolds a member of congress who was convited of having sex with minors.

    Trentt Lott says something about Strom Thrumond and the left cries racist yet joe Biden says “you can’t walk into a 711 without bumping into an indian and the left says nothing.

    Most recently left wing moonbats at Columbia University interuppted a speaking invition at which the minutemen were invited to speak by callling them racist and rushing the stage and gettign violent. The irony was that when a black man was speaking on behalf of the minutemen, the moonbat protestors did not feel they were being racist by hurling racial epithets at him.

    Just goes to show you whata bunch of hypocrites the American left is.

  • BriMan,
    Before you come around spouting off you need to get out of the kool aid line for a while. You stated not a single one took money from the likes of Abramhoff. Read on and learn.

    Dirt runs across party lines and when we allow them to live in Congress instead of limiting terms this is what we get.

    Dems who took Abramhoff money

  • BriMan

    What is rich about this whole party of values argument is that anyone would consider that any political party has a monopoly on values. People that vote based on values need to get some of their own. For instance, stop being so lazy and do your duty as an informed citizen. The hypocrits in the R – party are just that. They are addicted to power – the massive amounts of money they are willing to spend to perpetuate it proves me out. The level of corruption that they stoop to to get their money proves me out.

    Dems arent saints either but not a single one took money from the likes of Abramoff – if you want to keep perpetuating a lie then all I can say is that you have been bamboozled so long you refuse to see your own failed ability to grasp at truth. Your state of denial makes you look like a fool and a charlatan with a keyboard. Keep thinking the way you are and the problems in this country will only get worse.

    The Repubs have painted themselves in a corner. When they are out of power (and they will be – maybe soon) and they disagree with how the Dems are running the war the R’s started, they might just be considered unpatriotic and unAmerican by their own warped logic. Stay the course indeed!

  • As if there was any doubt Zing? Please don’t confuse him with facts!

  • zingzing

    jom: “I am amazed that the same party that they are “open minded” concerning sexual orientation are bashing this guy because he is doing what Gay men do…..look for some action and recruit new “younger” members….”

    wait, wait…. are you saying that gay men are pedophiles? or whatever you call it…

    the fact that this guy is gay has little to do with this case. legally, all that matters is that the guy was contacting underage (whether that mean under 18 for sex or under 21 for alcohol) kids in ways that were vastly inappropriate.

    it’s only in the media and in politics that it matters that the guy was gay.

    and your statement (“…doing what Gay men do…”) shows your sentiment quite well.

  • JustOneMan

    Now Nancy…lets stop the Queer bashing!

  • Nancy

    And this is something the Republicans haven’t done themselves in the past? They can dish it out but they can’t take their own medicine? What bullshit. The Dems have NOTHING to do with this whole charade, and the GOP knows it. Even Hastert has backed down from his ridiculous far-fetched claims of a Dem conspiracy. No – this fiasco is entirely GOP made, by GOP arrogance, secrecy, & lust for power, and therein lies the entertainment value of it for all non-Republicans: they’re hoist with their own petards, all by themselves, and have only themselves to thank this time. But by all means, DO keep on blathering about Democrat involvement; it kills what little credibility you still have & makes you sound increasingly desperate & unbalanced. It also doesn’t help your cause that JOM thinks your theory is just peachy; kind of like having Kim on your side, or Chavez, y’know? With allies like that, you don’t need enemies.

  • Not ONE person has provided proof (beyond posts like yours) that ANY Democrat was involved.

    It has certainly been proven that ABC News sat on the story for months so that it would be positioned to do the most damage for the elections.


  • As stated in the post, there will a few morons who attack the writer. Jet, I don’t care what you believe. I waited for a week so I would not foolishly rush to judgement like so many others. Yes, Foley is scum but there is more to this and one bad guy does not reflect the whole party. Each day there are new items coming out and they contradict what was out the day before. Besides, waiting a week allowed me to hear, for a whole week, how much the Democratic Party stands for values. Now, who exactly are you all trying to fool with that bullcrap?

    “Not one person has provided proof that any Democrat was involved.” I believe that I indicated that they should look at how long it was known and 2004 was not part of what I wrote. I said the IMs took place in 2003, not that they were released then. News reports indicate that the group that Soros is involved in (CREW) had the IMs in April of this year and held them. The FBI is investigating that.

    You know as well as I do that everyone know everone else’s business in Congress.

  • JustOneMan

    Dog…the truth will come out…the Dems will be connected to the story…once the CREW story breaks this will hit the dems right in their little balls….

    In addition I am amazed that the same party that they are “open minded” concerning sexual orientation are bashing this guy because he is doing what Gay men do…..look for some action and recruit new “younger” members….so whats the big deal…The Republicans didnt out a guy that wanted to keep his sexual life private…

    To be a bonafide “queer” must none march in the Gay Pride parade in leather or in drag…or proclaim that they are a “gay american”…

    The true color of the Dumbocrats!

  • “I wanted to hear more about this before I formed an opinion.”

    Who exactly are you trying to fool with that Bushit?

    Certainly not us I hope?

  • Keep Reading

    I suggest you keep reading. And try reading a few things that aren’t Republican propaganda. If you really believe that any Democrat would have held this story during the 2004 presidential campaign, you aren’t thinking clearly. It just doesn’t make sense, but I’ll give it an “E” for effort.

    Not ONE person has provided proof (beyond posts like yours) that ANY Democrat was involved. However, every person known/proven to have been involved so far, has been a Republican. Like I said, keep reading. There’s more out there than RW media!