Today on Blogcritics
Home » Culture and Society » Democrats Send in the Shills

Democrats Send in the Shills

Please Share...Tweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Share on LinkedIn0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

There’s a common axiom that when accusations start getting thrown around, the accusers are often likely to project their guilt onto others and be engaging in exactly the kind of wrongdoing they decry. This seems to be proven very true by recent accusations from the left that protests against health care legislation were inauthentic “astroturfing” bought and paid for by the health care and insurance industries.

First they attempted to discredit the protests by describing generally well behaved protesters as an “angry mob” and ultimately as neo-Nazis and white supremacists based on distortions and the scantiest imaginable evidence, such as Nancy Pelosi seeing a sign with a swastika with a cross through it — indicating opposition to national socialism — and claiming that this meant the bearer was a nazi. This strategy fell apart when the extensive video of the protests made very clear that the protesters were peaceful and generally well-behaved despite the occasional passionate outburst. It even created the opportunity for humor at the expense of the Democrats with responses like the popular “I am the Mob” video.

The next response from the Democrats was to send in thugs to intimidate, assault and exclude anyone with a dissenting optinion who tried to attend a townhall meeting so that audiences would only ask approved questions and protesters would be kept out or scared away. Within a matter of days, union members and ACORN activists in matching shirts with identical printed signs were confronting grassroots protesters at every townhall. Now it has been revealed that these pro-health care advocates are not exactly what they seem. In fact, they are exactly what the left wrongly accused the grassroots protesters of being, a paid rent-a-mob made up of hired thugs an shills.

During the past week the evidence of this has become impossible to brush off. The presence of paid agitators from the SEIU, ACORN and Organizing for America has been too blatant to ignore. Their identical t-shirts and identical signs are designed to intimidate, but they also reveal exactly who and what they are. This became even more difficult to ignore early this week when it was revealed that these groups are advertising for paid protesters on Craigslist all over the country. They aren’t genuinely concerned about health care, they just want to get their $12 an hour for showing up.

Then there’s the issue of the undercover shills. It’s not enough to just send in a rent-a-mob. In several incidents Democrat operatives have been sent in undercover to ask softball questions or to stir up trouble and create negative photo-ops. This started with genuine constituents being excluded from meetings while bussed-in paid advocates had space reserved from them and it reached its height when Houston Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee was offered a leading softball question by a woman named Roxana Mayer who claimed to be a doctor from Lee’s district, but turned out to be a paid activist for Organizing for America, not from Houston and not a doctor. I guess Lee needed all the help she could get since she was so unfamiliar with the legislation that the had to call a White House hotline in the middle of being asked a question to find out what was in it.

Finally, in the most bizarre incident, a protester who appeared at Senator Dingell’s townhall carrying a poster depicting Obama as Hitler was spotted handing out literature supporting health care reform, with Dingell’s staff later in the evening. It turned out that he was a Democrat activist and had gotten the poster from a group advocating single-payer health care which feels that the proposed legislation isn’t radical enough.

Putting aside the irony of the Democrats being caught doing exactly the kind of fake, astroturf protesting they falsely accused groups on the right of engaging in, this whole sordid pattern of smears, thuggery and deception shows how desperate advocates of radical health care reform are getting. That desperation may also be revealed by the recent discovery that the White House is sending out spam email about health care. The protesters are winning and the left is getting desperate, because health care was the point of the spear which would lead to the introduction of their entire agenda of government expansion and socialization. Now public opinion has turned sharply against them. In the latest Rasmussen Poll only 32% of the public supports health care changes and that support is eroding rapidly. Even those who support the idea of health care reform find current proposals and the tactics being used by the left to be unacceptable.

Maybe it’s time to stop and reconsider. President Obama could show some real leadership and admit that his party has blown this opportunity through bully tactics and incompetence and open up an honest dialog on this issue with all points of view included. In particular he ought to repudiate the tactics and behavior of Nancy Pelosi and the unions and the DNC to reclaim some legitimacy for himself. If he and his supporters continue obstinately on the course they have followed so far they won’t have enough credibility left to pass a resolution confirming that the sky is blue, much less any kind of health care reform.

Powered by

About Dave Nalle

  • Franco

    Dave,

    I love the video. BTW, I am of the “angry mob”

    These blatantly deceitful tactics you have outlined by elected officials and their democratic progressive supporters/handlers is good work Dave.

    However, I do not happen to believer these intentional deceitfulness is unique to this health care issue, as you have framed it.

    These is just more of the same kind of lurid tactics we have seen the Obama handlers display ever since he came on the seen back in his campaign. ACRON was in on it then and they are in on it now. The MSM is going along with it now as they did before. It is dirty Chicago politics at is dirtiest and it has worked for them so far from the get go, why change it. Surly you can’t be serious in thinking Obama will change his ways if he still has the MSM enabling it all.

    Now I solute you for staying with this over the past few weeks and posting your pieces on it. You have covered a lot of ground and it has helped keep it sorted out. But for all the reasons stated above, I was disappointed in the solution to it you posted, which is really more just whishfull thinking. Here it is.

    Maybe it’s time to stop and reconsider. President Obama could show some real leadership and admit that his party has blown this opportunity through bully tactics and incompetence and open up an honest dialog on this issue with all points of view included.

    That is never going to happen.

    In particular he ought to repudiate the tactics and behavior of Nancy Pelosi and the unions and the DNC to reclaim some legitimacy for himself.

    That is never going to happen.

    If he and his supporters continue obstinately on the course they have followed so far they won’t have enough credibility left to pass a resolution confirming that the sky is blue, much less any kind of health care reform.

    It may not pass by the people, but Congress dose not care what the people want. And Nancy Pelosi shows it in spades every time she opens her mouth. She is a mainliner for this deceitful tactics.

    In your coverage of this you are calling attention to the most profoundly important issue in our countries history Dave, and it has nothing to do with health care. But your solutions are not going to change the dishonest democratic progressive left. Because quite frankly, they don’t give a dame how dishonest they are. The will do what ever it takes to win socialism. They have waited a long time to be this bold and now they have to pull all the plugs, because this is America, the last great bastion of individual freedom in the world. It is a big fish that requires all gloves coming off, and they are using brass knuckles too boot.

    You of all people should come up with much more powerful ideas for how to stop these decitul liers in their take over of this nation by there progressive socilist agenda that they are molding before our very eyes into what they want. And what they want never hand anything to do with what made this country great.

    So will you please subject something more in order for dealing with the deadly street fight this is instead of wishful thinking.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The will do what ever it takes to win socialism.

    They believe in it like a religion and that it is their historical destiny to take over society and government everywhere, regardless of the cost in rights and human lives.

    But I do think you misconstrued my concluding paragraphs here. I put forward my suggestions of what Obama should do not because I think he will do any of those things, but to highlight that he will NOT offer any of those reasonable responses to the situation. As an ideologue he will not behave like a pragmatic politician or like an honest representative of the people who would reconsider when it becomes clear that what he wants is not what the people want.

    As for stopping them, this health care issue is showing the way. If we can hold them accountable for their actions and proposals on every issue as we have been doing with health care and if they keep attacking and having those attacks backfire, the loss of credibility and political viability will continue, and November of 2010 is only 440 some days away.

    Dave

  • Franco

    OK, I got ya.

    This just in…….

    Aug. 15 (Bloomberg) — Two firms that received $343.3 million to handle advertising for Barack Obama’s White House run last year have profited from his top priority as president by taking on his push for health-care overhaul.

    One is AKPD Message and Media, the Chicago-based firm headed by David Axelrod until he left last Dec. 31 to serve as a senior adviser to the president. Axelrod was Obama’s top campaign strategist and is now helping sell the health-care plan. The other firm is Washington-based GMMB Campaign Group, where partner Jim Margolis was also an Obama strategist.

  • Franco

    Dave, another thing that matters is the ecomony. I think it is going to get worse, and frankly, a lot worse and this will start showing up going into the first part of next year.

    Given that they want ‘green jobs” what ever that means, cutting back our domestic oil supply, and “Cap and Trade” which no once else is signing on to, and on going war that could last for years to come, and other potentional wars that could surface, and all the trillions alread spent in the bail out, banking, and other bills passed, we dont have the money right now for a health care program. We just dont have it.

    And if I am right about the ecomony, there will be no revinews for the government.

    If the MSM keeps playing along with the administrations spin that things are getter better (and they have to, because no body is going to talk negitive about being so close to the edge of a depression cliff) then a lot of shit is going to hit the fan.

    You notice how every one of Obamas big ticket items is always a – rush ruch, got it do in now, can’t wait – song and dance.

    He has broken the bank and now is going to finish us off with health care. Once this thing gets set in motion, no matter how messed up it gets, they are not going to roll it all back to the way it was before.

    Maybe this is time for some new privite insuracne companies to start up and compete with the goverment. The government can not opperate that lean and mean, never has and never will.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Dave calling anyone else an ideologue is a joke in itself.

    A single-payer system could, arguably, be called socialist; it could also, arguably, at the same time be called common sense.

    But there is no single-payer plan even on the table. The 4 current bills, and most likely the fifth one, the Senate finance committee bill that looks most likely to pass, provide for insurance reform, and are ‘socialist’ only to an, excuse the expression, ideologue.

    Dave, after a brief respite in which he admirably shot down a lie/rumor [‘death panels’], is back to his usual propaganda mode. From his article, one might conclude that:

    • No supporters of the health care legislation who show up at town hall meetings could possibly be sincere or spontaneous; they are all, every one of them, either ‘thugs’ or ‘shills.’

    • All the protesters who show up at town halls are good, honest, well informed citizens.

    In other words, Their Side all stink, and Our Side all smell like roses.

    But…

    Don’t the [approximately] 40% of the population who support the legislation deserve a voice too? Does Dave deliberately ignore them? Is it his position that they should just keep quiet?

    [Dave repeats the inaccurate 32% figure in this article; the latest Rasmussen poll , Aug. 9-10, found 42% in favor.]

    Are the [approximately] 50% of the population opposed to the legislation really accurately represented by the loud, extremist voices who have gotten the most news coverage at the town halls?

    Isn’t it more likely that a large number of Americans are ambivalent about the bill, and uneasy about its costs and about the consequences of Big Changes — but highly unlikely to be inclined to shout “Traitor!” at their Congressman, or hang him in effigy, or carry a sign designed to look like his tombstone?

    Mr. Nalle has the gall to end his diatribe with a call for ‘honest dialog,’ after decrying ‘bully tactics.’ Wouldn’t it be more honest to say that both sides have used hardball political tactics?

    The ‘water the tree of liberty’ crowd may be perfectly sincere in their ranting; but national conservative groups, talk-radio demagogues, and the Republican party have all been more than happy to employ gross distortion, half truths and outright lies to unfairly attack the legislation.

    The utterly benign proposal to have Medicare pay for end-of-life counseling if people want it will now almost certainly be removed from the legsislation. Why? Because the lie about killing seniors, which Dave himself said was unfounded, stuck. Does he approve of this development?

    How many more lies will stick? Will Dave step up and fight those as well?

  • zingzing

    dave: “socialism: They believe in it like a religion and that it is their historical destiny to take over society and government everywhere, regardless of the cost in rights and human lives.”

    you want to rape your neighbor and bury your family in the cellar. there, it’s out there. the truth for all to see, because it was I, THE GREATEST MIND IN THE HISTORY OF ME, who sad it. therefore it is true.

    you’re just a fucking liar. you’re also a republican. ooooh. low blow on that “republican” shit, eh?

    as for your inevitable reply, go fuck yourself. you know what i write is true. you’re nothing but a blowhard.

  • zingzing

    as for your article, it’s again more “we on the right are righteous lambs, heading towards our knowing slaughter at the hands of those evil democrats, who are all shills and thugs and want to kill us with healthcare.”

    you’re either playing dumb or have an agenda.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Now, zing, you’ll catch more flies with sugar than with shit [or vinegar].

    But come to think of it…who wants to catch flies?

  • zingzing

    you can catch flies with shit. or so it would seem.

    i’m obviously just flinging poo around. as usual.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    you’re just a fucking liar….as for your inevitable reply, go fuck yourself. you know what i write is true. you’re nothing but a blowhard…..

    I have no dog in this race. If the leftists send in thugs or shills, you have it coming, and if it isn’t the case, it doesn’t matter to me either. Healthcare, shmealthcare. It’s all the same garbage to me…. America going down the chute.

    FLUSH!!

    I just wanted to admire your utter mastery of the English language, zing. As a past master, myself, I know whereof I speak.

    Love and kisses from Samaria,
    Ruvy

  • zingzing

    thanks, ruvy. i do pride myself on my eloquence. it’s a labor of love, to reduce it to a cliche. really, the word “fuck” has to be the most versatile word in the language. one of these days, i’m going to try to use it as a verb, adverb, noun and adjective in the same sentence.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    A single-payer system could, arguably, be called socialist; it could also, arguably, at the same time be called common sense.

    Well, it’s up to the people to decide how much socialism they are willing to accept. Right now it looks like it’s not so much. But if a reasonable single-payer system were offered instead of the steaming pile of crap in Congress right now that might change.

    But there is no single-payer plan even on the table.

    Which is why I can’t understand how anyone rational on the left can support anything currently being considered.

    • No supporters of the health care legislation who show up at town hall meetings could possibly be sincere or spontaneous; they are all, every one of them, either ‘thugs’ or ‘shills.’

    I’m sure some of them are legit. The point is that the promoters of health care reform don’t trust it to win on its own merit and have to use these methods to stack the deck.

    • All the protesters who show up at town halls are good, honest, well informed citizens.

    Good lord no. Hardly. But they are at least sincere and not being paid to be there.

    Don’t the [approximately] 40% of the population who support the legislation deserve a voice too?

    32%. And I’ve always believed the minority should get a hearing. Tyranny of the majority is unacceptable, but tyranny of an abusive, corrupt and autocratic minority as seems to be the case here, is truly unacceptable.

    [Dave repeats the inaccurate 32% figure in this article; the latest Rasmussen poll , Aug. 9-10, found 42% in favor.]

    Wrong. Check the link in the article. Your 42% figure is from a poll which was taken ONLY in Pennsylvania. The nationwide figure is 32%.

    Are the [approximately] 50% of the population opposed to the legislation really accurately represented by the loud, extremist voices who have gotten the most news coverage at the town halls?

    Well, they’re expressing that opposition, so what’s your beef? Why do you think so many people are turning out?

    Isn’t it more likely that a large number of Americans are ambivalent about the bill, and uneasy about its costs and about the consequences of Big Changes — but highly unlikely to be inclined to shout “Traitor!” at their Congressman, or hang him in effigy, or carry a sign designed to look like his tombstone?

    As the polls make clear, this is a very divisive issue. The number who are ambivalent is small and shrinking. It hits very close to home so it gets people stirred up.

    Mr. Nalle has the gall to end his diatribe with a call for ‘honest dialog,’ after decrying ‘bully tactics.’ Wouldn’t it be more honest to say that both sides have used hardball political tactics?

    Sure, but the ball is in Obama’s court now since he has sunk to the lowest depths. He needs to apologize to the people and make amends.

    The utterly benign proposal to have Medicare pay for end-of-life counseling if people want it will now almost certainly be removed from the legsislation. Why? Because the lie about killing seniors, which Dave himself said was unfounded, stuck. Does he approve of this development?

    I don’t care. The entire process needs to be scratched and started over. Period.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Zing. Here’s the non response your childishness deserves. Grow up.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    i’ll think about it. probably won’t come to any conclusions.

    that said, you should stop being so bitter. if you really think we worship socialism like a god and want to destroy america, you’re just a sad, sad man. thing is, i don’t think you really think that. i just think you’re lying through your teeth.

  • Baronius

    Dave, after careful review of today’s comments, I’ve determined that you’re an impartial observer when you critique conservative activists, but a lying ideologue when you critique those on the left. In the future, before you publish an article, you should ask yourself: could this article more neutrally support the Democrats?

    At the risk of being neutral myself, I have to defend Nancy Pelosi. To my knowledge, she only said that people were carrying images of swastikas, not that anyone was a Nazi. I think she was just referring to the Obama=Hitler imagery. Actually, I’m sure the idea that Democrats could be fascists would startle her far more than a bunch of Obama opponents praising Nazism.

  • zingzing

    baronius: “Actually, I’m sure the idea that Democrats could be fascists would startle her far more than a bunch of Obama opponents praising Nazism.”

    probably. i’m pretty sure you could reverse that and you’d agree. shrug. we both think the other is one step away from fascism, and that’s the way it’s always been and always will be. so maybe we should just give up on fascism and go back to our respective warmongering and socialism. at least those don’t cancel each other out, you nazi-loving fascist.

    “I’ve determined that you’re an impartial observer when you critique conservative activists, but a lying ideologue when you critique those on the left.”

    really? what do you expect? when dave lightly bashes those on the right, he makes sure to point out that he is talking about a fringe element. but then he paints the entire left with the same brush when he bashes on us. his view of the right is nuanced (if far to forgiving), while his view of the left is blunt and unfocused. so he comes off like an ideologue, only bashing on the left to bash on the left.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I appreciate Dave’s taking time to respond to my points.

    I just checked the Rasmussen site, however. Nothing about a Pennsylvania-only poll. It’s labeled very clearly “National Survey of 1,000 Likely Voters.” And these, again, are the results:

    Generally speaking, do you strongly favor, somewhat favor, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and the congressional Democrats?

    26% Strongly favor
    16% Somewhat favor

    9% Somewhat oppose
    44% Strongly oppose

    5% Not sure

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I know it’s unlikely, but I encourage our friends on the right to watch the Obama town hall going on in Colorado right now. I’m sure it will be available to watch online afterward.

    He’s just so good at explaining this stuff, and at acknowledging valid arguments against him and rebutting them fairly. The caricature presented in this article is refuted almost completely.

    I write this not knowing if a hostile question may yet come up. There have already been some mildly challenging ones.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But you know, Handy: it’s preselected.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I’m talking about what he says, not who is in the audience. But as I say, at least a couple of the questioners have been skeptical.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    One valid point was made – even by Hannity. It’s somewhat different when it’s the President who is speaking rather than any other elected official. Besides, he either seems better prepared to field the question or just plain more knowledgeable.

  • Baronius

    Zing, I’m not calling Pelosi a fascist or quasi-fascist at all. Please reread the comment. I’m saying that she seems to lack the introspection or empathy necessary for comprehending both sides’ thinking.

    Perhaps if you could give Dave a table or a schedule of some kind, he could know how often and how severely he should criticize his own side.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why should Pelosi have empathy for what’s a fringe, lunatic element? Even Dave doesn’t, and those are “his people.”

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    how often and how severely he should criticize his own side

    Give us a break. Dave is fully capable of making intelligent differentiation between a fair argument and a bullshit polemic on either side. When he fails to do so, it is perfectly fair game for us to comment on that failure.

    I’ll speak only for myself here: I react when I perceive he’s being unfair.

    You seem to imply it isn’t necessary to be fair. Dave should only build up rightist arguments, because that’s the team he plays on.

    This isn’t a football game.

    If I am misrepresenting your point, please enlighten us, because that is exactly how it sounded.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Very good point, Handy. This isn’t a football game where winning is everything. Doesn’t our common future matter?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I just checked the Rasmussen site, however. Nothing about a Pennsylvania-only poll. It’s labeled very clearly “National Survey of 1,000 Likely Voters.” And these, again, are the results:

    Again, Handy. IT IS NOT THE SAME POLL. The one I’m linking to is from the 10th and is titled “32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose” and it is on the Rasmussen site

    But there is a key difference, my poll is on single-payer health care, not the current proposals in specific. But wait, I did find your poll. At the same time they did one that asks specifically about the proposal in congress. And I think it’s the one you cite.

    But what’s most significant about it is the parts you left out, the 3rd question where 51% say that the quality of care will get worse and the 5th where 51% say the cost will go up under the plan. People are more informed on this issue than you realize.

    And I note that they have a significant new poll out that may be very important. It asks about 10 specific issues, and on every issue but one those polled preferred Republican ideas to Democrat ideas, in some cases by huge margins (taxes, economy, immigration, abortion). And in the case of Healthcare Republicans won 44% to 41%.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    “I’m saying that she seems to lack the introspection or empathy necessary for comprehending both sides’ thinking.”

    that’s the point i was making as well. when we don’t understand why someone is acting the way they are, politically at least, we have a tendency to just shout out “fascist!” and be done with it. i’m saying that’s pointless. so fascism should belong with hitler in the no-go zone.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Same poll, different question.

    So a single payer plan gets less support than the [non-single payer] Democratic plan.

    43% report for the proposed legislation, 32% support for the [not currently proposed] single payer plan.

    Both figures are discussed in the same article, titled “Support for Congressional Health Care Reform Falls to New Low.”

  • Baronius

    I’m trying to make a couple of straightforward points about fairness, but I must be doing a terrible job of it. Oh well.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Although fairness is sometimes in the eye of the beholder, it is not so subjective as to be off limits in a political opinion blog/bulletin board.

    It’s not uncommon for opinion writers to conveniently ignore counterexamples and inconvenient facts. I am more than happy to help them out when they slip up in this manner.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Presented without comment, an item from the truly excellent gay blog, Towleroad:

    A group called ‘The Pray in Jesus Name Project’ (led by Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt) has sent out an email to its followers warning them that the Obama health care plan will lead to a gay and transgender takeover of the health care system, The New Republic reports.

    Specifically: “Your tax-dollars will pay for preferential hiring of homosexual hospital administrators, who distribute $50,000 grants to gender-confused activists for unneeded elective surgery to mutilate their own genitals, (and force Christian doctors to perform it.)”

  • http://joannehuspek.wordpress.com Joanne Huspek

    “President Obama could show some real leadership and admit that his party has blown this opportunity through bully tactics and incompetence and open up an honest dialog on this issue with all points of view included. In particular he ought to repudiate the tactics and behavior of Nancy Pelosi and the unions and the DNC to reclaim some legitimacy for himself.”

    When donkeys fly…

  • Bliffle

    It seems clear that the rightists are embarked on a rule-or-ruin course.

    #25 – roger notes:

    “Very good point, Handy. This isn’t a football game where winning is everything. Doesn’t our common future matter?”

    No, The rightists don’t include everyone in “our common future”.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Not sure if anyone else watched this morning’s so-called ‘debate’ on health care on Meet the Press.

    My impression of the participants:

    Tom Coburn: surprisingly sensible and articulate. He should be a point person for the conservative position, and he might even occasionally convince me. [Is this partly because he’s a doctor?]

    Dick Armey: Lying extremist windbag. An embarrassment.

    Tom Daschle: Made a lot of sense, maybe too slick and full of sound bites for his own good. But a genuine, full-fledged debate between him and Coburn would be a good way to cover both sides of most issues.

    Many of you know I think Rachel Maddow is great, although this kind of roundtable may not be her best milieu. She and Armey just ended up yelling over each other — and she is not normally a yeller. But I was yelling at him too.

    Perhaps Rachel should have been the moderator. David Gregory, a good reporter, is a mediocre interviewer [mostly because he’s too nice, yet tries too noticeably to ‘be tough’] and a terrible moderator.

  • zingzing

    “”President Obama could show some real leadership and admit that his party has blown this opportunity through bully tactics and incompetence and open up an honest dialog on this issue with all points of view included.”

    jeez. that’s what happened last week? dumb hicks yelling loud enough to drown out every senator’s words? come on. the right wing is just as bad, and all you have to do is look at a video to see that.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    The president may have made some political missteps and miscalculations, but I’m not convinced very many people see this as ‘losing his legitimacy.’ And he’s done a superlative job at his own town meetings during the last week.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Handy, his numbers are going through a Carter-like decline. That’s losing legitimacy by any definition.

    Dave

  • Baronius

    Not by my definition, Dave. President Obama’s legitimacy is unalterable for the next three and a half years, barring an impeachment. It’s his credibility that’s taken a beating.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    jeez. that’s what happened last week? dumb hicks yelling loud enough to drown out every senator’s words?

    Says the elitist of the people who make up most of the population.

    And he’s done a superlative job

    Of cherrypicking the audience.

    Dave

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    The most recent RealClearPolitics average actually went up from the week before: currently 53.3% approval, 40.4% disapproval, with only Rasmussen out of the 8 polls included showing negative numbers [47-52].

    One could as easily say this is a ‘Reagan-like decline’ — driven by concern about high unemployment, just like 1981.

    Carter’s numbers actually stayed high during his first year and declined later. Reagan’s, of course, went back up along with the economy, in ’83 and ’84. [As did Clinton’s in ’95 and ’96 after declining his first two years].

    If/when unemployment goes back down, the president’s approval will go up again.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    He’s done a superlative job explaining and defending the health care plan at the town halls, whoever was in the audience.

    He did get two questions from articulate conservatives at the Colorado one: a small business owner and a student who challenged him to ‘an Oxford style debate.

  • zingzing

    dave: “Says the elitist of the people who make up most of the population.”

    i’m not sure that sentence makes any sense. might want to rephrase. i’m certainly no elitist, but i know dumb when i see it. they’re easily manipulated, loud and easily angered by palin-speak. and ugly. oh, how ugly.

  • Baronius

    Hee hee, hee hee hee.

    The new head of the Canadian Medical Association said that their health care system is imploding. Not “hee hee” for the Canadians suffering under it, of course, but “hee hee” to those who’ve been holding it up as a model.

  • Deano

    I think you might want to read a bit more prior to enjoying your moment of glee…

    Actually what she said was “Canada’s doctors are not opposed to medicare, [and neither of my predecessors was opposed to medicare by the way.] We don’t want a health system where people can be beggared, crippled and bankrupted by medical expenses. That is anathema to Canadian physicians.

    “But we can’t just sit back and smugly say we have the best health system in the world while our system is crumbling around us,”

    which is pretty much what most people agree about in Canada – the system needs work, needs funding and needs to do a better job of putting the needs of patients forward…it does not equate to an utter failure but rather a system seeking to improve itself. The other item you seem to have failed to note was the comment that her one unwavering principle was access to care regardless of a patient’s ability to pay.

    Keeping reaching for those dreams Baronius…keep on reaching….

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    What they won’t admit, just as they won’t in England, despite Daniel Hannan’s recent brilliant articles on the subject is that the problem is that the basic concept is flawed and no amount of money or reallocation of resources can fix it.

    Now, speaking of polls. Have you seen the latest Gallup poll? The majority of the people in EVERY state taken on a state by state basis describe themselves as “conservative” for the first time ever.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I like that, zing: “palin-speak” has made it into the vernacular. About time.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    That’s plurality, Dave, not majority. Even Alabama was only 49% conservative in the poll.

    And moderates outnumbered conservatives in 21 states.

    And yet Gallup also found this recently:
    “Gallup’s 2009 party ID results indicate that Democrats have significant party ID advantages in 30 states and Republicans in only 4.”

    So, lotsa moderate Democrats out there.

  • Baronius

    Yeah, Deano, I must be crazy, trying to spin the word “crumbling” into something bad.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Speaking of the UK health system, really excellent article in the NY Times yesterday, not a partisan diatribe but a personal account by an Amercian reporter who lives in England and has access to both the National Health Service and [unusual for Britain] also private insurance from her husband’s employer.

    It shook a couple of my preconceptions and may do the same for yours, whatever ‘side’ you’re on.

    Health Care in Britain: Expat Goes for a Checkup

    Before telling of her family’s own experiences, she starts the article with this:

    There are times when, viewed from afar, American political discourse looks like nothing more than a huge brawl conducted by noisy, ill-informed polemicists.This is one of them, as Britain found last week when the renowned physicist Stephen Hawking was, bizarrely, drawn into the raucous debate over the health care proposals of President Obama and Congress.

    Mr. Hawking, 67, has Lou Gehrig’s disease, is paralyzed, speaks through a voice synthesizer and needs a great deal of medical attention. He also lives in Britain. This makes him a spectacularly unfortunate choice to pick as an example of the evils of the National Health Service, which has provided free health care – to him, and to millions of other people here – for 61 years.

    But that is what Investor’s Business Daily did on Aug. 3, in an editorial opposing Mr. Obama’s proposals by accusing him of wanting to institute an N.H.S.-style system in America. Mr. Hawking “wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K.,” the newspaper declared, because the health service would declare his life “essentially worthless.”

    The paper printed a correction, and Mr. Hawking issued a statement saying that, actually, the health service had helped keep him alive.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Baronius, Canadians and Brits often complain about their own health systems, but they don’t like it when foreigners do the criticizing. And a great deal of the internal criticism [the part that isn’t ideologically based] is done with a certain amount of pride and affection: “This and this and this are sooo irritating and inconvenient. But I’m sure glad the National Health is there.”

    A lot of Americans would say the same about the screwy US system. In some ways it works, but we need to fix it.

  • Clavos

    In some ways it works, but we need to fix it.

    It does, handy, most notably in the most important way: the quality of medicine practiced, which despite all the allegations about life expectancies, is still (for those who have access) one of the best in the world.

    It’s our distribution system which sucks.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    The distribution system is likely to be the main target of the compromise bill that looks likely to pass.

    But there are also items like 62 million CAT scans a year. We can’t keep doing that. Not nearly all those are necessary or helpful. They might even be exposing many thousands of people to big radiation doses for no good reason.

    And that’s just one example among hundreds.

  • Deano

    “Yeah, Deano, I must be crazy, trying to spin the word “crumbling” into something bad”

    The point Baronius, is that you are cherry-picking a single word out of an interview and presenting it as the gist and focal point of the discussion. You are taking the context of the CMA’s position and applying your own partisan spin on it, as opposed to presenting it in context and engaging in a real and factual debate over the issue. You ignore the issues and comments that don’t support your agenda and apply the ones that do. This makes your comment and your observation just so much nonsense.

    In this context you share the exact same specious reasoning that BC’s resident self-grinding axe Dave does with his little statement “that the basic concept is flawed”.

    If you don’t believe me, feel free to contact the Canadian Medical Association yourself and put your question on whether they want to abandon the current “socialized” system in favour of a private one. You will get an earful of the problems and issues around the real state of health care in Canada but nothing supporting the abandonment of a “socialized” system of care that covers everyone in favour of American-style programs. They can be reached at Tel (toll free): 1-888-855-2555 or via email at cmamsc@cma.ca.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    To say that it’s distribution that sucks is like saying we make the best product – like a Benz or the Rolls – except that it’s available only to the few.

  • Baronius

    CAT scans are a lot cheaper and safer than exploratory surgeries. If you want to cut down on the number of unnecessary CAT scans, you should support tort reform.

    As for me, whenever I get a kidney stone, my first priority is as old-school as the poppy fields of Afghanistan, but to my knowledge I’ve never had any renal damage, and I’m grateful that the doctors have figured out a way to look at them. My kidneys are quite handsome and willing to do tasteful “art” modelling.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Tort reform is ok by me.

    I’m not advocating that CAT scans be banned, just that all the expensive treatments and procedures our wonderful technology makes available, be used efficiently rather than recklessly. And your tax dollars are paying for a lot of ‘em through Medicare and Medicaid.

  • Baronius

    Deano, we agree that a realistic appraisal of the Canadian experience would help the US discussion.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Jeez, we’re all getting awfully reasonable around here….

    Sing with me now: “Kumbaya…”

  • Clavos

    But there are also items like 62 million CAT scans a year. We can’t keep doing that.

    Agreed.

    This one has an easy solution: rein in the lawyers.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    That’s one aspect, Clavos, but I don’t agree with you that it’s the only one or even the only big one.

  • Clavos

    The problem of excessive tests has only one motivator:

    Protection (CYA) against the possibility of litigation.

    Reform the litigation process and you will eliminate that one problem, saving billions in health costs in the process.

    NB, I don’t advocate elimination of torts; patients must have some recourse against inept doctors, of which there are plenty — I’ve fired eight of them from my wife’s case in the past two years. But lawyers are really the only entity involved in torts who are making any money at it — often as much as 60% of a plaintiff’s award after the attorney’s expenses are taken off the top.

    Liberals (often rightfully) complain about what they love to call “obscene” profits earned by corporations, but I know of none that have a 60% (or even a 40%) profit margin.

    The big problem with this solution is two-pronged:

    Trial lawyers are among the biggest contributors to pols’ campaign coffers, and

    both chambers of Congress are replete with lawyers.

  • Baronius

    Any health care reform that doesn’t include tort reform simply isn’t proposed in good faith. We talk about the rising costs and the lack of UHC as the two uniquely American problems, but our level of legal payouts is another big thing that sets us apart. Fix that and wait a year, and we’ll see what the safety net looks like.

    Ditto immigration policy.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    So now we’re back to ideology.

    Doctors and hospitals also order tests because they have a financial incentive. They get to submit a fee for each service. Doctors frequently co-own the testing centers where expensive procedures are performed.

    Many health economists who know more than myself, Clavos or Baronius say that the key is changing the incentive from paying for each individual test or treatment, and instead paying for outcomes.

    If you insist on blaming everything on greedy lawyers, your argument loses legitimacy. Trial lawyers are associated with Democrats, and you hate them.

    Malpractice insurance rates are a factor. But don’t use them for a phony reductive, politically based argument.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    So, what are you all thinking? Limit attorney fees? Okay, I like it.

    Surely you can’t be thinking of, yet again, making it even more difficult for injured peopled to get what they deserve?

  • Clavos

    rial lawyers are associated with Democrats, and you hate them.

    I hate them, true, not for being associated with Democrats but because they are parasites.

  • Clavos

    Surely you can’t be thinking of, yet again, making it even more difficult for injured peopled to get what they deserve?

    There’s no need to, as bliffle often points out, actual awards aren’t a significant element of overall health costs.

    I would, however, limit awards to actual fiscal damages (including loss of income). “Pain and suffering” awards are bogus — they don’t help the plaintiff suffer any less, and the ambulance chaser gets most of it anyway.

  • Clavos

    Doctors and hospitals also order tests because they have a financial incentive.

    Not true of most doctors. Some do own testing equipment and facilities, true, but the vast majority of doctors don’t, they order superfluous tests with an eye on the lawyers hovering in the shadows.

    I’ve seen my wife’s bills, and there are hundreds of them; if her neurologist orders a brain scan, he doesn’t make any money on it, the radiology group does, and that’s true, as I said, of better than 90% of the tests ordered for her, perhaps more.

    Many health economists who know more than myself, Clavos or Baronius say that the key is changing the incentive from paying for each individual test or treatment, and instead paying for outcomes.

    That’s true, but is a much larger principle than merely heading off unnecessary tests, it’s aimed at improving methods as much as anything, and makes good fiscal sense.

    It’s not a coincidence that doctors are leaving high risk specialties in droves, the tort system is out of control, and not for the benefit of patients, for the benefit of lawyers.

    Class action suits are a perfect example of how perverted the tort system has gotten — only the lawyers get any real benefit out of them.

  • Clavos

    Malpractice insurance rates are a factor. But don’t use them for a phony reductive, politically based argument.

    I didn’t.

    I focused, as did you, on the millions of unnecessary tests performed every day, which dozens of experts have attributed to the spectre of malpractice.

  • Clavos

    The global cost of unnecessary defensive medicine far outweighs both the global cost of malpractice insurance, and the total of awards each year.

  • Bliffle

    Baronius:

    “62 – Baronius

    Any health care reform that doesn’t include tort reform simply isn’t proposed in good faith.”

    Any tort reform argument that isn’t backed with numbers showing the financial effect isn’t proposed in good faith.

  • zingzing

    yay! conservatives are bringing guns to the town halls! woohoo! nothing says “concerned” like a semi-automatic!

  • Baronius

    Handy, this ain’t political. The Republican-controlled House, Senate, and White House failed to act on tort reform, to their shame. They threw money at the problem by expanding Medicare. I don’t think I was on BlogCritics back then, but I’ve been complaining about that for a long time. Stupidity and laziness are not exclusive to either party.

    Does that provide you with enough cover to go back to your original position guilt-free?

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Wow, Handy, great take on Meet the Press and the participants. Now my take.

    Tom Coburn: Very sensible but a political whore.

    Dick Armey: Embarrassment is an understatement. He shares more in common with Adolf Hitler than James Madison.

    Tom Daschle: The only reason Sen. Daschle has amassed so much power is because he was Senator from a piss-ant, insignificant state that could be bought off for short money as he rose in Senate leadership. He’s sold out his constituents, his party and the American people. Daschle is the ultimate special interest bitch.

    Rachel Maddow: If I were female, I would ask for her hand in marriage. Straight Ultra Right males better watch out. She’s a great alternative for yo’ wimmin folk.

    David Gregory: The WORST moderator in Meet the Press history. He was at the door of NBC management sucking ass before Tim Russert’s body was carried from his office. He’s an opportunist, hack reporter. I would have loved to see Gwen Ifill get the moderator’s job. Even Rachel Maddow would have been a brilliant, albeit controversial, appointment.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    yay! conservatives are bringing guns to the town halls! woohoo! nothing says “concerned” like a semi-automatic!

    I wish they would just be suicide bombers — that’s a way to get rid of them.

  • Cannonshop

    #71 It doesn’t count as anything but an oversight unless they’re also bringing the buckets of tar,wooden rails, and the chicken feathers for the congressman.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    ZingZing,

    You’re on to something. If we keep seeing right winged anti-Health Care Reform types toting assault rifles, semi-automatic handguns, and signs using the same quotes as found on Tim McVeigh’s t-shirt, (Tree of Liberty/Blood of Tyrants) I don’t think you’ll have to worry about this Bill passing. I have confidence we’ll get a public option.

    This kind of nut-wing radicalism is back-firing on the conservatives. Reasonable people don’t bring firearms to a Town Hall Meeting with the President. When Bush had rallies 5 short years ago, people were arrested for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts and John Kerry Buttons.

    Remember…What did President Obama say last year during the Campaign that got everybody a twitter?

    “So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

    Priceless and TRUE.

    –Cobra

  • zingzing

    chris matthews: “was your gun loaded today?”

    kostric: “wow. who would be silly enough to carry an unloaded gun?”

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I used to read your comments Handy..but then I read…Most of you already know I think Rachel is great…and that’s now the end of it…if you listen to her and still think she’s great well…all I can say is…you may be a …this is a word we’re not supposed to use in VA anymore…RETARD!

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    You may of course read or not read whatever you wish, Andy. I’m flattered that you at least used to read me.

    I’m sure Rachel Maddow is not our only point of disagreement. I also know how popular she is among many of my fellow liberals, and apparently even a few conservatives.

    Although she is unabashedly partisan, she manages to ‘disagree without being disagreeable’ more skillfully than almost anyone else in current political discourse.

    [President Obama would be another example; he can make pointed political comments without coming across — to most people — as an asshole.]

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    That’s where you liberals are gonna lose this whole thing…now you and the slobbering idiot known as Chris Matthews are gonna make a big deal out of people exercising their constitutional right to bear arms.

    Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t make it illegal or even wrong! I don’t personally carry a gun, but if I wanted to, it still is a right in this country…for now anyway!

    Everybody that carries a gun now is Tim McVeigh? Yeah, okay, and Obama is Hitler reincarnated! Didn’t he take the guns away from his people too?

    Maybe the thought of someone carrying a gun might just stop some of those SEIU thugs from putting their hands on people…

    And I love these liberal pols that I’m hearing now who are saying they’ll vote for a public option whether their constituents want it or not!

    That’s what I call a representative govt!

    Just in case you were all wondering…there really are other news sources than MSNBC! You have to know this, they report on one of the other channels all fucking day long!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I used to think that too Handy…about Obama I mean…until that “acted stupidly” comment…

    I’ve always had another word to describe Ms. Maddow…actually, two, they’re interchangeable with her…

    …and I’ll probably still read the first line or two…so if you keep ‘em brief…just don’t tell anyone.

  • doug m

    “Retard”? Wow, you’re a regular George Bernard Shaw. Look him up.

    Is is just me or the discourse on this site deteriorate with each visit?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    It’s just you!

    It’s fairly obvious what side of the debate you fall on…retard is bad…but asshole is okay? I guess it’s good that you can defend yourself like that…I on the other hand would have to defend being an asshole! Sorry, it’s indefenseable…

    But then again…you did tell me to look up a socialist…pretty obvious which side of the bus you should be pushed under…it amazes me that an irishman could put down the pint long enough to write that many books!

  • Clavos

    Is is just me or the discourse on this site deteriorate with each visit?

    Well, that line certainly didn’t contribute much to the “discourse.”

    Use the preview window.

  • doug m

    Apples and oranges. you called Handy a retard. He refered to Obama appearing like an asshole.

    Actually, I told you to look up a playwright in response to your “wit”. I made no reference to his political associations or ideology, but you appear to be like so many of your countrymen whose vision is skewed to only see through a left/right prism.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    When 70 plus percent of Republicans rely on FOX news for their information I cringe. It’s no wonder the GOP is becoming the Intellectually Impaired Party (and, please, I mean no disrespect to the intellectually impaired).

  • Clavos

    and, please, I mean no disrespect to the intellectually impaired

    Well I do.

    Every one of those clowns should be voted out of both the Senate and the House.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Every one of those clowns should be voted out of both the Senate and the House.

    I take it you mean all 535, from both parties. No one spared, eh? And you think their replacements will all be like Jimmy Stewart in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington?

    I’m afraid politicians will always be politicians, but I do find some a lot better, and some a lot worse, than average.

    How about we just keep Barney Frank and Tom Coburn, and they can duke it out. At least it would be entertaining.

  • Clavos

    I take it you mean all 535, from both parties. No one spared, eh? And you think their replacements will all be like Jimmy Stewart in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington?

    Yes, I do. No, I don’t.

    But just imagine how much fun we’d have!

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Andy Marsh writes:

    “Everybody that carries a gun now is Tim McVeigh? Yeah, okay, and Obama is Hitler reincarnated! Didn’t he take the guns away from his people too?

    Maybe the thought of someone carrying a gun might just stop some of those SEIU thugs from putting their hands on people…”

    Do you know the American History concerning Presidents and assassinations?

    Do you know that President Obama has received the most threats in American History…400% higher than President Bush?

    Do you THINK that the sight of people, who are NOT vetted law enforcement, or Secret Service openly carrying semi-automatic weapons at a Presidential Town Hall meeting is no cause for concern or alarm given the two previous statements?

    Given the fact the people were arrested at Bush rallies 5 years ago for just wearing T-Shirts, it strikes me as absolutely amazing how someone could draw YOUR conclusion from these needlessly provactive acts made by people you, in all probability, can’t vouch for as far as mental state, drug or alcohol influence, temperance or demeanor–nor can you assess the same of the PEOPLE SURROUNDING THESE INDIVIDUALS in a heated rally crowd.

    That is…

    Unless you’re spoiling to see a tragedy of some sort at one of these events.

    Then I understand you PERFECTLY.

    –Cobra

  • Cannonshop


    Do you know that President Obama has received the most threats in American History…400% higher than President Bush?

    Notably, folk on the Left tend to interpret more things as “Threats” than folk on the right, so the figure’s questionable imho.

    “Do you THINK that the sight of people, who are NOT vetted law enforcement, or Secret Service openly carrying semi-automatic weapons at a Presidential Town Hall meeting is no cause for concern or alarm given the two previous statements?”

    It does make them somewhat easier to spot than the guy wearing a flak vest loaded with semtex and ball-bearings under his coat, or the guy hiding a rod in his jacket pocket (or the guy sitting a quarter mile away with the sniper rifle.) It’s easy enough to move on someone you KNOW is armed (or keep an eye on him so you CAN move in time), it’s the guys you DON’T SEE that are the real threats, Cobra. Some dumb jackass goes to a meeting with a gun on his hip, you have to ask two questions:

    1. Is this an open-carry state?

    2. is the guy you can see carrying as much of a threat as the one you can’t see?

    That’s all on the question of morality, really. ON a practical level, if Secret Service didn’t move on some asswipe who’s carrying a gun to the presence of the President (any President), they’re not doing their jobs.

    OTOH, Congressmen really ought to have more spine than that…then again, they should be more literate and actually read bills and understand them before trying to sell them to the public of their districts, and they should have the intestinal fortitude to deal with unfriendly crowds.

  • zingzing

    cannonshop: “Notably, folk on the Left tend to interpret more things as “Threats” than folk on the right, so the figure’s questionable imho.”

    iraq’s gonna nuke us to shit! [call bullshit on yourself first.]

    “It does make them somewhat easier to spot than the guy wearing a flak vest loaded with semtex and ball-bearings under his coat, or the guy hiding a rod in his jacket pocket (or the guy sitting a quarter mile away with the sniper rifle.) It’s easy enough to move on someone you KNOW is armed (or keep an eye on him so you CAN move in time),”

    oh my god. you’re nuts. [really, look at what you’re saying.]

    “if Secret Service didn’t move on some asswipe who’s carrying a gun to the presence of the President (any President), they’re not doing their jobs.”

    and if the secret service did, you’d call obama a fascist. [right?] correct me if i’m wrong.

    “they should be more literate and actually read bills and understand them”

    hey conservatives! listen to yourself!

    [secrest, out.] [fuck me] [what the hell]

  • zingzing

    seriously, cannonshop, life isn’t a fucking video game. you make guns sound like you’re playing halo or something. get a grip.

  • WTF?

    “Notably, folk on the Left tend to interpret more things as “Threats” than folk on the right, so the figure’s questionable imho.”

    WTF?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Sorry, you on the left need to get a grip. Guns are legal in our country…learn to live with that…or not, you can always keep whining about it.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    zingzing,

    Do you see? Do you see the nature and attitude of the people we’re debating?

    There is no reasoning. They are blinded by partisanship and ideology.

    You called them out on exactly what game they’re playing. They WANT law enforcement to confront them at these rallies, so they can say–“See? Obama really does want to take our guns away!”

    It is feckless, reckless and SHAMEFUL.

    –Cobra

  • Clavos

    It is feckless, reckless and SHAMEFUL.

    I’m so ASHAMED!

    /sarcasm

  • Mark

    (well, notoriously shameful anyway)

    To what extent do you think Zing/Cobra’s point that, They WANT law enforcement to confront them at these rallies, so they can say–“See? Obama really does want to take our guns away!, is accurate?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’ve told you, zing. Some of them, even the reasonable ones, have gone wacko.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    All I know is that all my friends that ARE armed are stocking up on ammo because they’re convinced that our new pres is gonna tax the hell out of it any time soon at a minimum, that’s what they believe is gonna happen…

    …and reading the way you on the left think here at BC why wouldn’t any sane individual honestly believe that all of you (including the pres) want to take the guns away from law abiding Americans?

  • Clavos

    Mark,

    They’re pushing the envelope, sure, but that’s a grand American tradition, dating all the way back to the 18th century.

    “feckless, reckless and SHAMEFUL.”

    Is just a tad over the top.

    The only recklessness that guy had was for his own life, the SS might have shot him on sight, and there are probably those (not I) who would say that would have been a good thing.

    “Shameful?” Oh, please.

    “Feckless?” The guy was making a point; he broke no laws and hurt no one.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    #78

    Too bad everyone isn’t retarded. How very much better people they are.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    And if someone called me a retard, I’d be honored. Of course it would be a lie, I couldn’t imagine being half as good or kind or honest as most retarded people I’ve had the extraordinary pleasure to meet.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    To comment #90…none of what you bring up matters.

    Those shots that hit presidents never come from the guy wearing the holster…do they? Maybe it’s YOU that doesn’t know the history of this country.

    I remember a story when I was stationed in SD. The CHP was trying to find a killer, they interviewed one of the LE’s that drove the corridor where they’d found the last girl strangled to death…funny, he had a scratch on his face the night they interviewed him…that “vetted” police officer ended up being the killer everyone was looking for…

    The fact is, that guns are LEGAL in this country and I suspect they always will be…you know why? Because the people that want them to be legal have most of the guns.

    And somehow, you get the idea that I ever gave a shit about what may or may not have happened at a bush rally how many years ago? That bush did it line is probably the biggest line of horseshit you liberals have come up with yet! You’d never let a conservative get away with saying…well, Clinton did it…so why do you think that anyone will let you get away with trying to turn it around?

    I never said that the SS shouldn’t have checked out anyone that heads to a pres rally with a gun, all I said was no matter how much you whine like a little baby about it, GUNS ARE LEGAL IN AMERICA!!!

    And yes, I do think that a person at a presidential rally with a semi automatic weapon is no big deal. I’m an American and I understand the idea of the second amendment. I think that the more armed people there are in a conversation the more civil those conversations tend to be!

    You might want to look something up…find out where the safest places are in this country and then find out how many of the citizens in those towns and cities are armed…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    When did this become a debate about gun rights and not about security at presidential events?

    Of course the bloke with the pistol strapped to his leg, and the two guys with assault rifles in Arizona, were within their legal rights.

    I’m intrigued, though, as is Cobra, as to whether people think that Bush’s Secret Service agents were within their legal rights in arresting people for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts.

    It seems to me that the perspective as to what constitutes dangerous behavior around one’s president has changed in an odd way.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Doc – it became a debate about gun rights when your friends on the left here at BC took up with the slobbering idiot known as Chris Matthews and started bitching about people with guns.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    What does arresting people for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts have to do with anything? I don’t see how that affects right-wing Libertarians.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Nothing, Cindy. Their survival instincts are kicking in. You see, when a sub-species is about to become extinct it tends to go out whining like the girlie men they all are. Speaking of girlie-men, what do you think of Tom Delay joining Dancing with the Stars? I think it’s hysterical and would only had been happier if his dance partner was Barney Frank.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Andy,

    Again, all right, those guys had every right to be carrying. I don’t give a fuck, in this context, about the gun debate.

    I do, however, suspect that these guys would not have dreamed of packing heat near the president five years ago – because to have done so would likely have landed them in a very cold deep hole.

    I also suspect that such people would have been among those who applauded when the Secret Service took down those lethal T-shirt wearers.

    So. What. Has. Changed????

    I’m truly curious.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I guess the fact that, all hysteria to the contrary notwithstanding, the president has not taken away anyone’s guns and has not raised anyone’s taxes is just…a minor point.

    And that he has repeatedly said he will keep his campaign promise of limiting tax increases to people who make over $250,000 a year.

    And that last Nov. he received a majority of the votes of people making over a million a year.

    So I guess Andy’s gun-totin’ army of angry taxpayers consist almost entirely of people who make more than $250,000 and less than $1,000,000 a year.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Actually Handy, the promise the president made on hundreds of occasions was that he was gonna lower taxes for 95% of us…anyone here get their taxes lowered yet??? Anyone??? Bueller???

    Now I have an army? You hurt my feelings Handy…I’d never have an army of anything…I may have a navy’s worth though!

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Everybody who has an employer that withholds tax from their paychecks has been having less withheld since April. That’s where the 95% figure came from. The amounts are small, on a weekly basis per individual, but they are not fictional.

    This added up to a major chunk of the stimulus package, which also included tax breaks for R&D for businesses.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    So, kinda like Horton Hears Who…a penny’s a penny, no matter how small?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    lol, Silas

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    So I guess Andy’s gun-totin’ army of angry taxpayers consist almost entirely of people who make more than $250,000 and less than $1,000,000 a year.

    If the latest Tea Party here in Fresno, which appeared to consist mainly of ag students, is anything to go by, I doubt it.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Perhaps I should have added, Doc:
    “[consists of those income groups] plus many, many misinformed people who don’t know what they’re talking about and who actually have had their taxes lowered, will not have their taxes increased, and who still have their damn guns.”

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Andy,

    President Obama (aka the Dalai Bama*) is no dummy. All he has to do is reduce taxes by a nickle a week and all his proponents will be so focused on using this evidence in winning their arguments to support him, that it’ll hardly matter that this cut is meaningless (actually, it’s worse than meaningless as it actually works).

    *Oh my, I couldn’t resist. Handy is gonna throw me to the lions.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Sorry Handy, but I have no employer taking money out of my checks any more…I’m newly self employed and if by chance my business takes off and I end up hiring about 15 to 20 people our new president wants it to cost me two arms and a leg…yeah, in my line of work, 15 employees would make around a half a mil a year…and that’s Barry’s magic number!

    You and others like you want something for nothing at a time when this country really can’t afford it!

    Yeah yeah I know, not reforming health care is killing this country…no, it’s not, you wanna know what’s killing this country? it’s all the unessary health care costs because of stupid shit like diabetes, that a lot of stupid people end up with because they don’t take care of themselves and personally, I don’t want to pay for that. It’s illegal aliens going to emergency rooms for routine health care issues, those are the things that are driving up health care. It’s assholes like John Edwards and other lawyers like him with their class action lawsuits that are driving up the costs of health care and all the govt will do is drive them up even more!

    You can call it heartless or whatever, but I really don’t want to pay for your health care needs or anyone elses! I take care of me and mine, you take care of you and yours…and we’ll keep medicare for the old folks that can’t take care of themselves.

    I don’t want to hear about the children…the poor poor children…can’t afford them, don’t have them.

    Look, I know I’m a prick, I took a test…the results said Andy, you’re a prick! I’m cool with that! Actually, the results said..Andy, You’re NOT a bleeding heart liberal. But I knew those would be the results…

  • Cannonshop

    and if the secret service did, you’d call obama a fascist. [right?] correct me if i’m wrong.

    No, Zing, that’s called “Doing their Job.” The JOB of the Secret Service is to protect the President. If he’s there, and some jerkoff has a gun, said Jerkoff is going to be detained, thrown out, or arrested-that’s how it works in America, or anywhere else on the frigging planet.

    the precedent for them doing so was President Garfield, who was gunned down early in his term by a guy with a pistol. (admittedly, this allowed a much better President in the form of Theodore Roosevelt, but still…shitty way to get the job.)

    In the case of the U.S. President, if secret service didn’t move on a guy carrying in the open, I’d have to wonder who’s paid them off/subverted their agency, because it is their JOB to do so. Presidents DO get special treatment, Zing. Congressmen? not so much, nor does their position merit it, nor history support such treatments.

    As for GW’s behaviour and detaining people for wearing “Anti ______” tee-shirts, Bush got it from Clinton, Clinton? who knows where he got the idea-probably Johnson or somebody.

    If I were to show up at a rally wearing an anti-Obama shirt, I’d expect to be detained too. It’s the way the Executive has rolled since Nixon.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    you wanna know what’s killing this country? it’s all the unessary health care costs because of stupid shit like diabetes, that a lot of stupid people end up with because they don’t take care of themselves and personally, I don’t want to pay for that.

    Fine. Then do you want to pay for preventative healthcare – like healthy school meals, nutrition education, PE, subsidized gym memberships, pollution cleanup, free health screenings…? No? Then what’s your point?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Cindy, I would never throw you to any carnivorous beasties, especially for a bad pun. But I do take exception to this:

    All he has to do is reduce taxes by a nickle a week and all his proponents will be so focused on using this evidence in winning their arguments to support him, that it’ll hardly matter that this cut is meaningless (actually, it’s worse than meaningless as it actually works).

    You have turned into such a cynic about everything, it appears. Neither Obama nor anyone else would ever satisfy your, um, unrealistic demands about national security.

    But extending your criticism to the stimulus tax cuts is a new one, and it seems based on suspicion and rhetoric rather than facts.

    [And hey, it’s $8 a week. The idea is that people will spend it, in the aggregate. I don’t know if that’s working yet, and neither, actually, do you.]

    But if you insist that it’s a political distraction created by a liar in order to deceive — prove it, don’t just assert it.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    If we don’t include preventative health care in the overall deconstruction of the current system, we’re wasting our time. A pound of prevention will lighten the cure.

  • zingzing

    “admittedly, this [garfield’s assassination] allowed a much better President in the form of Theodore Roosevelt, but still…shitty way to get the job.”

    except it was arthur… maybe you’re thinking of mckinley, who was also assassinated by a man with a gun (funny how they do that).

    “If I were to show up at a rally wearing an anti-Obama shirt, I’d expect to be detained too.”

    of course, carrying a big ol placard that says obama is hitler/satan/killing grandma, etc., is just as bad, and yet people aren’t being detained for it. so i dunno why you’d expect to get pulled for a t-shirt. i’d say that’s a ridiculous and sad thing to expect.

  • zingzing

    that last one (#123) is for cannonshop.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “I think that the more armed people there are in a conversation the more civil those conversations tend to be!”

    It’s an odd notion of civility, Andy, induced at the point of a gun.

  • zingzing

    wow, yeah, that’s “retarded” to say the least.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “What does arresting people for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts have to do with anything? I don’t see how that affects right-wing Libertarians.” (Cindy)

    “Nothing, Cindy. Their survival instincts are kicking in. You see, when a sub-species is about to become extinct it tends to go out whining like the girlie men they all are. Speaking of girlie-men, what do you think of Tom Delay joining Dancing with the Stars? I think it’s hysterical and would only had been happier if his dance partner was Barney Frank.”

    This is a gem!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I’ve gone through the comments here – and the Democrats don’t have to send in the shills. The commenters here have sent in the clowns. If it weren’t so pathetic, they’d be more fun than a barrel of monkeys

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Well, if that’s not the pot calling the barrel black….

  • zingzing

    yeah, thanks for the insight ruvy. file that one away in my file cabinet… yep, right in the “i” section! that’s gonna be a useful one one day.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Yer welcome, guys.

    It’s just my survival instinct kicking in. When the bullshit meter hits a certain level, I hit the “clown” button – since that’s what the lot of you are….

  • zingzing

    we got it the first time…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    we got it the first time…

    I always knew you were a genius, zing. your mastery of English (especially capitalization), clear incisive commentary , and delightfully clean language are always a delight to read.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Handy,

    Well sure I am a cynic about govt, Handy. What do you expect from someone who is opposed to govt? Support for its efforts? Efforts to do what, maintain authority over people?

    What should I say, ‘hooray’, the govt’s gonna work better now because of Obama?

    Neither Obama nor anyone else would ever satisfy your, um, unrealistic demands about national security.

    Of course no one would. I figured that was understood. What are my unrealistic demands about national security anyway? I must have forgotten.

    I don’t know if that’s working yet, and neither, actually, do you.

    Well, I’m not sure what ‘working’ means. It likely means different things to each of us. I am not interested in salvaging Capitalism. So, if by, working, you mean getting things back to the way they were before the latest Capitalist crisis, then I don’t know if they’re working for you. But, if they aren’t dissolving the govt itself, then they sure aren’t working in any way I’m interested in.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “I always knew you were a genius, zing. your mastery of English (especially capitalization), clear incisive commentary , and delightfully clean language are always a delight to read.”

    maybe i’m just lazy. actually, sometimes i actively uncapitalize (decapitalize? hyphens, maybe?) stuff to keep it consistent. which kinda goes against the point.

    (that said, when one is criticizing another’s writing, it’s best not to write “clear incisive,” as there should be a comma there.)

    and my language is delightfully clean, i must say. shit. it’s damn near squeaky. i squeak, you squeak, we’re all squeaking.

    and if i’m not a genius, i’m at least clever. i learned it from country music. or maybe i’m just humorous. which i also learned from country music. country music is the font i found it at. see, that’s not grammatically correct, but it just works better that way. which is the way i roll with rules and fools and duels and swine flues.

    all that said, i wouldn’t trust your judgment on your own poops (if such a thing ever came up, i’d have to check em out meself in order to be satisfied, at which, of course, i would still be very far from satisfaction,) so you’re sarcasm doesn’t phase me in the least.

    keep on keepin’ on, ruven. you service only yourself.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    . . . which is the way i roll with rules and fools and duels and swine flues.

    almost poetic, zing. But don’t be too harsh on punctuation. Gertrude Stein detested commas.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    interesting take on country music. would like to hear some more.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    actually, from all the dramatis personae which populate this little microcosm we call BC, I find you the most enigmatic.

  • zingzing

    “almost poetic, zing.”

    too bad i misspelled “flues,” although i coulda pretended it was on purpose. although i don’t know what a “swine flue” would be… maybe some macabre contraption involved in making bbq.

    “actually, from all the dramatis personae which populate this little microcosm we call BC, I find you the most enigmatic.”

    that’s because what i say is meaningless, but i mean it.

    “interesting take on country music. would like to hear some more.”

    lyle lovett. “if i had a boat, i’d go out on the ocean. if i had a pony, i’d ride him on my boat. and we could all together go out on the ocean. me upon my pony on my boat.” what?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “that’s because what i say is meaningless, but i mean it.”

    There you go again. For some reason, I think it’s deep. Ticklish is a better term.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    ‘flues’ is poetic, it was the best part, imo

  • zingzing

    “There you go again. For some reason, I think it’s deep. Ticklish is a better term.”

    glad i’m as entertaining to you as i am to me. i’m my own best audience. i signal my own applause. and hear myself clapping. good thing i live in 2 dozen swimming pools.

    “‘flues’ is poetic, it was the best part, imo”

    fluesy. doo-pee-doo-pee-doooo.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s a double entendre. I sensed there was something there – especially with Ruvy as the the object of reference.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s the ticket, zingeroo. You’ve got to like your own stuff if others are to like it too. Ain’t that what the artist’s standard is about?

  • zingzing

    i thought the best part was the parting masturbatory shot: “you service only yourself.”

    of course, the thought of ruvy masturbating makes me…

    oh, g-d… oh, g-d…

    mmmm-o-n-e-y.

  • zingzing

    alright, that was a bit much. i snowball that one right back.

    can’t stop myself…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I had better call it a night. Don’t want to press my luck.

    Manana

  • Clavos

    faze…

  • zingzing

    i think i’ll learn how to drive.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Andy Marsh writes:

    “Yeah yeah I know, not reforming health care is killing this country…no, it’s not, you wanna know what’s killing this country? it’s all the unessary health care costs because of stupid shit like diabetes, that a lot of stupid people end up with because they don’t take care of themselves and personally, I don’t want to pay for that. It’s illegal aliens going to emergency rooms for routine health care issues, those are the things that are driving up health care. It’s assholes like John Edwards and other lawyers like him with their class action lawsuits that are driving up the costs of health care and all the govt will do is drive them up even more!

    You can call it heartless or whatever, but I really don’t want to pay for your health care needs or anyone elses! I take care of me and mine, you take care of you and yours…and we’ll keep medicare for the old folks that can’t take care of themselves.”

    You don’t get the program, do you? It’s not just illegal aliens who go to the emergency room and can’t pay.
    It’s the WORKING POOR who can’t afford health insurance.
    It’s the under insured as well.

    Take for example, Kenneth Gladney, the conservative activist from St. Louis who claimed that SEIU members roughed him up at a Town Hall Meeting.

    “Gladney did not address Saturday’s crowd of about 200 people. His attorney, David Brown, however, read a prepared statement Gladney wrote. “A few nights ago there was an assault on my liberty, and on yours, too.” Brown read. “This should never happen in this country.”

    Supporters cheered. Brown finished by telling the crowd that Gladney is accepting donations toward his medical expenses. Gladney told reporters he was recently laid off and has no health insurance.

    Hello? Gladney is exhibit A. A night’s stay in the emergency room (for dramatic effect, IMHO) probably rang him up for $10K + easily.

    You’re forgetting about the UNDERINSURED, Andy. Not every company offers a bullet-proof, gold-plated ivory-tower policy.
    Many businesses, especially smaller businesses offer high deductable HMO’s, many set at anywhere from $5,000-$10,000.

    Which means if the doctor says you may have cancer and need a $2500 colonoscopy, plus an MRI/x-ray or two, you’re on the hook.

    Perhaps that explains why…

    “Sixty-two percent of all bankruptcies filed in 2007 were linked to medical expenses, according to a nationwide study released today by the American Journal of Medicine. That’s nearly 20 percentage points higher than that pool of respondents reported were connected to medical costs in 2001.

    Of those who filed for bankruptcy in 2007, nearly 80 percent had health insurance. Respondents who reported having insurance indicated average expenses of just under $18,000. Respondents who filed and lacked insurance had average medical bills of nearly $27,000.”

    That’s the system you’re fighting to preserve, Andy.

    As far as the “I like guns at Town Hall Meetings” types in here go, I wonder what their opinions are on warrantless wiretaps, extraordinary renditions and the more illuminating portions of the US Patriot Act?

    I mean…is one Amendment in the Bill of Rights sacred, and less expendable than others?

    –Cobra

  • zingzing

    “I mean…is one Amendment in the Bill of Rights sacred, and less expendable than others?”

    as important as the second amendment is to these people, they had better be using their guns as dildos.

    there are cheaper dildos.

    dildi?

    excuse me. they can be used as buttplugs as well. just covering my bases.

    show me yer guns!

  • Clavos

    It’s the WORKING POOR who can’t afford health insurance.
    It’s the under insured as well.

    Isn’t Medicaid for the poor?

    Actually, those of us with Medicare and gold-plated insurance go to the ER too. It’s the only way to get into most hospitals on an ad hoc basis, insurance or not.

    I’ve been in an ER eight times in the past 14 months. Average length of time to see a doctor: 3 hours. To admission: 6 hours; one time, because of a lack of beds, we waited in the ER for admission for 40 hours.

    With top-of-the-line insurance.

    Once the government starts handling it, the wait will probably go up to weeks or even months.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    dildi?

    Dild.

    they can be used as buttplugs as well

    They just have to remember not to sit down heavily.

  • Clavos

    the more illuminating portions of the US Patriot Act?

    Would that be the Patriot Act Bam has chosen not to rescind?

    That Patriot Act?

  • zingzing

    clavos: “gold-plated insurance”

    what is this?

  • Clavos

    Top of the line, the best you can buy (and expensive), zing.

  • zingzing

    “dildi?

    Dild.”

    dil.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s getting to be colorful.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Perhaps a dill was what was meant?

  • Clavos

    Uh, no Rog.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Mmm, dill.

    Slap some on a bit of salmon with dijon mustard and olive oil, then shove it under the broiler for a few minutes.

    Loverly.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Just go back to sleep, Roger. We’ll wake you if anything exciting happens. ;-)

  • Clavos

    I’m not real big on salmon, Doc, but I think I’ll try that on dolphin one of these days.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was thinking more along the lines of a dill pickle. But on that note, I’ll take the advice.

  • zingzing

    “Top of the line, the best you can buy (and expensive), zing.”

    gold-plating is too cheap-sounding for the top of the line. shouldn’t it be platinum then? and shouldn’t it be more than plating?

    it should be platinum-encircled-by-hell (so you can’t get in unless you traverse the multiple layers of inferno), etc, etc. (and each of those etc’s has another religions ideas of after-death torment attached to it).

    actually, i thought it was an actual legal term for a moment. with vip passes and shit. it’s a good thing that insurance doesn’t work like that, but that’s really shitty that you had to wait 40 hours. stop living in miami. too much cocaine there.

  • Clavos

    Well, if the docs would only share, waiting 40 hours wouldn’t be so bad.

  • Clavos

    Gotta do an early meeting tomorrow morning, so I’m outta here.

    Buenas noches, Gringos…

  • zingzing

    cocaine= ecstasy

    except both are better at different things.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m not real big on salmon, Doc, but I think I’ll try that on dolphin one of these days.

    Ah, bless yer, Clav. Politically incorrect as always!

    Nighty night.

  • Cannonshop

    “of course, carrying a big ol placard that says obama is hitler/satan/killing grandma, etc., is just as bad, and yet people aren’t being detained for it. so i dunno why you’d expect to get pulled for a t-shirt. i’d say that’s a ridiculous and sad thing to expect.”

    For some reason, and maybe it’s tied to the constant stream of protest “Movements” since the sixties, nobody really gives a flying whoop about placards anymore…but they DO react to Tee-Shirts for some strange reason.

    Maybe because it takes more organization to create a shirt, than a sign? who knows?

    At any rate, please recall-being pulled aside by authority is the BEST outcome. The more likely one (unless it’s near a news-camera) is getting beat the shit out of by Obama’s supporters. (Some of whom, as seen with SEIU, aren’t even camera-shy.)

    Now, I’ll have that nice meal of crow about the shot president comment-that’s one I should NOT have gotten wrong and did-what can I say? I went to a public school in a Democrat stronghold, it’s a wonder I don’t think (as our Prez does) that there are 57 States…

  • STM

    Doc: “Shove it under the broiler”

    American term “broiler”, of course, being the word that I find of real concern here. I’m getting worried about you, Doc. You are falling under the spell. Either that, or you’ve just been conning me into believing you’re a fair-dinkum Pom. Been taking classes in SSL (Seppo as a second language)???

  • STM

    Dill.

    Everyone knows what “dill” means in ‘Strine, too, don’t they?

    As in: “That bloke is a complete dill”.

  • Clavos

    Doc @ 169,

    WTF? What was politically incorrect about me comment, mate?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Dolphin is a fish aka mahi mahi or dolphin-fish.

    btw Dr.D,

    Thanks for the tip! I usually oil the salmon then broil the skin side and flip it over and do the other side. Then sometimes I make sauces with various things like low-fat sour cream, horseradish or whatever…dill, wasabi, mustard, herbs (for a green goddess sauce). But, I never tried putting mustard and dill on with the oil before broiling.

    I will try that next time and I will get back to you.

  • Mark

    …I never tried putting mustard and dill on with the oil before broiling.

    …hmm, I bet it’ud work for ‘the other other white meat’ as well

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Cobra – It’s YOU that’s not getting it. You and all your liberal whiny friends want health care for free and I don’t want to pay for it.

    But I love how you pick and choose the comments that you think you can argue and just leave the other ones alone…no comment on the former democratic savior John Edwards?

    Pre-existing conditions…are they those conditions you get later on in life after you decided you didn’t want to pay for health insurance because you believed yourself to be some kind of superman? I keep hearing these horror stories about people being denied coverage for this and that, but it’s my personal belief that it happens a lot less than it’s being whined about. But you know what? Maybe, just maybe, like the car insurance companies, the health insurance companies don’t want you running around with no insurance and then when you come down with something try to go buy it. Is that how you insure your car? You just wait until you rear end the guy in front of you and THEN you try and get insurance? I know this is how most illegals do it, yes, I’m speaking from experience and it’s also why car insurance companies make us pay for uninsured motorist coverage.

    I know of plenty of people WITHOUT any kind of health insurance that have had kids on the state and everything else…

    It’s what My America was founded on. Self-determination, taking pride in ones’ own actions. Some people should just take responsibility for their own actions. How many of those forty whatever million are uninsured because they CHOOSE to be? How many of them will be forced into a program and forced to pay into a program they don’t want?

    And lastly, for you disengenuous types that try to paint everyone with this monster broad brush…”that’s the system that your fighting to protect Andy” types…I’m not trying to protect anything but my own wallet.

    I’m trying to keep you liberal/progressive types out of my pockets. Redistribute your own fucking wealth and leave mine alone (as if I had any).

    All you liberals need to think of those words that a former savior of yours uttered back in the sixties…you remember and for those of you to young to remember, I’m sure it’s in or was in your liberal text books..”Ask not what your country can do for you…” blah blah blah

    In other words…get a fucking job!

  • Clavos

    Cindy,

    Dolphin is a fish aka mahi mahi or dolphin-fish.

    Bingo. Its scientific name is Coryphaena Hippurus, of the family Coryphaenidae. The other dolphin, the mammal, is a member of the order Cetacea, which also includes whales. These dolphins are members of the family Flipperea. :>)

    In Spanish, the fish is known as Dorado, because of its beautiful, iridescent coloring, which fades very rapidly when it dies.

    In English, the males are commonly known as Bull Dolphin (for their blunt snouts), and, as you pointed out, Mahi-Mahi.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Pretty tasty too!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Yup:

    Send in the clowns, like I said. Tens of garbage comments here while one of the very few intelligent articles here, Joanne’s, gets ignored.

    Talk about “servicing oneself!” The number of masturbatory comments here is enough to make a grown man blow his er wad….

  • Clavos

    After Swordfish (Oops — “politically incorrect” again!), my favorite, Andy.

  • Clavos

    Ruvy-One-Note dares to criticize the rest of us?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’ve never had it Clav, but I’ve heard…I’m actually pretty fond of a very plentiful fish around here…Striper/rockfish/striped bass. Tons of fun to catch and great tasting too!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Ruvy-One-Note dares to criticize the rest of us?

    If you’re going to make clowns of yourselves, yeah, I will.

  • Clavos

    This from Mr. “Nuke Tehran…”

    It is to laugh, Clarabelle.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Clarabelle! Man, you’re really freaking old!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Yup:

    I still say, “nuke Tehran, Clavos” Persia delenda est. Not to laugh, dude. I don’t joke when I call the curse of death on an enemy’s head. More to the point – to hit the nail on the head – YOU HAVEN’T GOT A BETTER SOLUTION, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU SNEER.

  • Clavos

    Clarabelle! Man, you’re really freaking old!

    Recognized it, though, did’nt cha, Andy?

  • Clavos

    You’re batshit crazy, Ruvy.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I did, but I don’t think I ever saw the show live…you on the other hand…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Clavos,

    Calling me crazy does not change the fact that you have not got a better answer to the existential threat that Iran creates for my country. Either find a better answer or don’t criticze my solutions.

    PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

  • Clavos

    I didn’t either, Andy, it never ran in Mexico.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “You’re batshit crazy, Ruvy.”

    yay! we agree on something!

    ruvy: “Calling me crazy does not change the fact that you have not got a better answer to the existential threat that Iran creates for my country. Either find a better answer or don’t criticze my solutions.”

    your “solution” is just as bad as the problem. it’s like overdosing on heroin in order to stop drinking too much. if you were to nuke tehran, you’d make israeli-arab problems 100 times worse, which, of course, is what you want. but the rest of us don’t want that, because the fallout would (quite literally) drift over on us. peaceful means of stopping this conflict, even if they take longer, will ALWAYS be a better idea than just committing genocide. it’s like you willfully are trying to get yourself killed.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Stan: American term “broiler”, of course, being the word that I find of real concern here. I’m getting worried about you, Doc.

    I’m merely using the vernacular, mate. I was addressing my comment to our linguistically-challenged Seppo friends, who as you know constitute a significant majority of the BC community. If I’d said ‘grill’ it would have meant a completely different cooking method, and I’m not sure the salmon would turn out so well.

    Then again, they do have a habit of bottling indescribable liquids and claiming that they’re beer, so they probably wouldn’t have noticed. They are a bunch of dills sometimes…

    Nothing wrong with my English, as you’ll have noticed from my occasional comments on your own blog. I merely tailor my dialect to the circumstances.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Clav: I forgot that there was also a type of tuna known as dolphin. I thought you were being an agent provocateur!

    When we were in the Peruvian Amazon last year they served something they called Dorado, which was the most delicious fish I’ve ever tasted. Since it’s a river fish, I don’t suppose it’s the same species you’re referring to. Pity – I was getting excited there for a moment! Guess I’ll just have to go back to Peru…

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    175

    Pork chops or Chicken? With dill? Really! Hmmm, never thought of that. I will try that too.

    and above 175–

    zing,

    that was pretty funny stuff.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    What do Brits call a grill then?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy:

    When you get together with your friends and neighbours, do you spend the entire time talking about the Palestinian conflict? Or do you occasionally have a bit of inconsequential chat?

    It’s not against the rules here – or in any other informal setting – to go off-topic, nor to stop talking about politics altogether if the mood so takes us. That’s the way human conversation works. We’re an undisciplined species. So the fuck what?

    Still, if it makes you happy…

    Andy: interesting you should mention car insurance. What are your thoughts on the fact that it is legally compulsory to have insurance if one owns and runs a car? Do you object to that? If not, why not?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Cindy @ #196: depending on the type, a griddle or a barbecue.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Clavos writes:

    “Isn’t Medicaid for the poor?”

    Yes it is. If you make less than 133% of the poverty line ($10,830 per individual) you’re elligible in most states for Medicaid. 133% comes out to be $14,403.90.

    In Ohio, a full time minimum wage job gets you $15,184.

    The average family premium will rise from $12,672 to $21,623 by 2019 in Ohio without health care reform.”

    Do you see how the current system is designed, Clavos? That’s why this “get a job” attitude by Andy Marsh is so misguided, because in many employee benefit plans, the employer pays in upwards of 80% of the premium costs. How many are going to DROP coverage at the prospect of each worker costing $17,298.40 a year to provide it?

    This is a MATH argument.

    Andy Marsh writes:

    “…MY America….”

    Well, that just about says it all for some of the right wingers, huh?

    –Cobra

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    If the dominant culture, rather than controlling the media and schools, were instead able to install chips in people so that they’d be prevented from thinking and would just spout off the propaganda desired by the elites, they couldn’t get a better model than Andy, I think.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The average family premium will rise from $12,672 to $21,623 by 2019 in Ohio without health care reform.”

    Yet in Wyoming that same coverage costs about $3600. Do YOU see what the real problem is here, Cobra?

    Dave

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Not sure where Dave gets that figure. Here are figures from Kaiser’s table:

    Average Family Premium per Enrolled Employee For Employer-Based Health Insurance

    Ohio: $10,967
    Wyoming: $12,087

    and for further comparison:

    the highest premiums
    Delaware $12,601
    New Hampshire $12,686

    the lowest
    Hawaii $9,426
    Nevada $9,746
    Mississippi $9,769

    These are 2006 figures, which, as Cobra points out, have been rapidly increasing — as has the percentage paid by the employee rather than the employer.

    The stated purpose of a public option is to provide competitively lower rates and fewer holes in coverage, with the idea of compelling private insurance to match them.

    If, as Clavos worries, public insurance sucks, then people won’t choose it. But if private insurance insists on keeping some of its less savory practices, it won’t be able to compete.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Doc – comment 197, I don’t really know Doc. Other than to say if it was mandatory it would only serve to line the pockets of the health care industry even more. And what would be the punishment for “living uninsured”?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Insurance mandates would be enforced by one of your very favorite agencies, Andy: the IRS.

    By the way, I appreciate the fervor with which you state your position, hostile and ugly though I think it is.

    But you do realize that you are considerably to the right of even most Republicans on this issue? They at least pay lip service to the need to insure a larger % of the population, and most Republicans join most other fair-minded Americans in finding the [yes, very real] ‘pre-existing condition’ exclusion to be despicable.

    Even the insurance industry agrees it should be abolished, along with lifetime coverage caps.

    Do you really think it’s ok for people to go bankrupt because of their health? What if it’s an injury or cancer? Will you blame those on the patients too?

    It’s one thing to support self-reliance and responsibility; quite another to insist on being hateful beyond all common sense.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    You really think that’s what it is…being hateful? Because I don’t feel the need to worry about how you’re getting along means I’m hateful? I’m not hateful, I’m self obsorbed, or obsessed or something like that, but I’m not hateful! I made the family that I’m responsible for. I don’t want my kids raised by YOUR village idiots! You wanna take care of all the poor needy people good on you, but leave me and my money the fuck out of it!

    How do you know who would handle the mandates, the IRS doesn’t do it for car insurance!

    And what larger percent? There’s already more than 85% of the country that’s covered…damned place is to freaking crowded anyway!

    I’m not a Republican Handy. I’m a non-denominational prick.

    It’s always been my experience that when you just give someone something as opposed to making them earn it they tend to respect it a whole lot less…I could site examples, but then you’d call me a racist too.

    They’re really seem to be plenty of you that want to give your hard earned dollars away so others can have something for free…maybe we can get you all together and you can start your own little fund. One seperate from where MY tax dollars are spent.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “It’s what My America was founded on. Self-determination,”

    except for Indians, women, slaves, etc.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Yeah, and I’m personally responsible for all of that Bitch! That is what el bicho stands for isn’t it?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    You really think that’s what it is…being hateful?

    Yup.

    Because I don’t feel the need to worry about how you’re getting along means I’m hateful?

    Yup.

    Call yourself hateful or selfish. The result is exactly the same as hatefulness, no matter which words you prefer.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    206

    El B makes an excellent point.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    That’s the problem with you liberlas…you take everything personally. The fact that I worry about my family and not yours bothers you and the fact that you worry about everybody elses family and not your own bothers me.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Yeah, and I’m personally responsible for all of that Bitch! That is what el bicho stands for isn’t it?

    Right again!!! You are on a roll today.

    You are absolutely personally responsible. Because it is your thinking that made it all possible and continues to keep it ongoing.

    I mean doesn’t it make sense if we had no hateful, selfish bastards in the world, it wouldn’t be the cesspool of soulessness it is?

    Can you see that without you personally and everyone like you, the world improves immediately?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Andy, you are not actually making your case more convincingly by going apeshit, believe it or not.

    Health care reform is about a lot more than wealth redistribution, or taking things from you so other people can get it ‘for free.’ That’s just your reductionist caricature.

    The system the way it is now could take more of your tax money and eventually bankrupt the government. Something has to change.

  • zingzing

    andy: “The fact that I worry about my family and not yours bothers you and the fact that you worry about everybody elses family and not your own bothers me.”

    take out the second “not.” that’s your problem, andy… you’re so myopic that you fail to see the point. when you run into trouble, you’re going to be all alone in it. then you’ll see.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Highly recommended: Betsy McCaughey’s appearance on Jon Stewart last night. Both hilarious and informative.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “I merely tailor my dialect to the circumstances.”

    Exactly, Dreadful. Why cast pearls before the swine?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So Andy, would you really like your kids turn up exactly like you – all so selfish and uncaring? I should hope you’d like to instill them with other values as well.

  • Cannonshop

    Cobra, Minimum Wage, ANY minimum wage, no matter how high you set it, will always be insufficient to support a family.

    Always.

    Raising it just cuts back on the number of employers willing to hire people who’re just starting out, and increases your cost-of-living (i.e. makes everything more expensive, cutting back on the number of customers.) Arguing minimum wage vs. insurance costs for FAMILIES is, therefore, a red-herring, and fundamentally disingenuous.

    “Mandatory” Health insurance is also fundamentally dishonest. Growing up in rural areas, I knew a LOT of people who lived “Gray Market” by working “under the table” to avoid taxation, including Social Security taxes, a “Mandatory” health-insurance law just expands that problem by making it even MORE attractive to work ‘cash only’ with no documentation.

    The idea is to have a system that Works, not one that generates scofflaw attitudes and burdens the honest and ethical with MORE burdens.

    Insurance NEEDS to be regulated, and the huge trusts that have arisen in the last fifty some-odd years since the Insurance Industry was exempted from antitrust law NEED to be reined in-what we do NOT need, is compulsory charity at the point of a gun with a Federal company that can, using Tax dollars and compulsory-with-threat-of-violence participation monopolistic behaviours.

    Remove the huge sump, reinstate anti-trust laws, discourage the practice of frivolous lawsuits and cut back on the highly profitable industry of Lawyers filing class-action suits (perhaps by guaranteeing only a tiny percentage for the lawfirms, or requiring it be pro-bono in all cases…)

    Affordability and quality come from honest competition, not from government. If they came from government, then the Steel Industry would still be Nationalized as it was under Eisenhower or (for Brits) Thatcher.

    There are a host of reasons (not all of them good) why Health-Care costs are higher than they reasonably should be. Un-necessary testing is one, lack of providers is another, but one of the largest is the presence of Oligopolies/limited monopolies-and adding Government to that pool as a provider won’t fix the problem.

    The Problem will be fixed only when the system is forced to be competitive within itself. Replacing some guy with Uncle sam isn’t going to remedy the real issues-as they’re discovering in Canada with THEIR national-health-care issues (which are lack of quality based.)

    No reform is worth it if it is self-defeating, no matter HOW good it makes the proponents feel about themselves.

  • Clavos

    If, as Clavos worries, public insurance sucks, then people won’t choose it.

    It’s not public insurance that worries me, it’s public medicine, and that’s what obama really has in mind. He’s smart enough to realize that he can’t get it all at once, so he’s approaching it incrementally.

    I know he says otherwise, but I simply don’t believe anything he says.

    And increasingly, neither do most other people, which is why he’s losing their support.

  • Clavos

    Doc,

    The fish I mentioned is not a tuna; it’s of a separate family (and maybe even order); it’s found in tropical waters worldwide as well as along the coasts of North and South America from SE Brazil to Nova Scotia, so it’s not the fresh water fish you found in Peru.

  • Clavos

    Doc,

    The fish I mentioned is not a tuna; it’s of a separate family (and maybe even order); it’s found in tropical waters worldwide as well as along the coasts of North and South America from SE Brazil to Nova Scotia, so it’s not the fresh water fish you found in Peru.

  • Clavos

    Doc,

    The fish I mentioned is not a tuna; it’s of a separate family (and maybe even order); it’s found in tropical waters worldwide as well as along the coasts of North and South America from SE Brazil to Nova Scotia, so it’s not the fresh water fish you found in Peru.

  • Clavos

    Just in case you needed copies, Doc…

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Apparently happy hour started early at Andy’s place. I am not sure how from my comment you took it to mean you were responsible, unless you were one of the DoI signers and are just now informing us. What you are responsible for is getting your history right when using it as support.

    El Bicho doesn’t stand for bitch, but it is the first thing people latch unto when they are running a deficit in the wit column.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    209

    Cindy makes an excellent point

  • http://blogcritics.org/sports Matthew T. Sussman

    Aw, shucks. 200+ comments and we still haven’t fixed health care yet?

    Well, you folks just keep at it!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #223 certainly isn’t short in that department. Good object lesson, Andy, take heed.

  • STM

    Doc: “Then again, they do have a habit of bottling indescribable liquids and claiming that they’re beer … They are a bunch of dills sometimes…”

    I discovered recently that Foster’s is actually an American beer. The Foster brothers came out to Oz from the US in the 1800s with a recipe for cold beer which took off like wildfire, and later sold the operation to Carlton United.

    (Suddenly, it all made sense!)

    No one knows what happened to them after that, except that they went back to the US.

    They vanished in the mists of time, never knowing that if they’d stayed, they would’ve made a squillion … and been the object of scorn from beer lovers the world over.

    Actually, an icy-cold DRAUGHT Foster’s isn’t that bad on a really hot day. It’s the canned stuff that tastes like possum’s piss.

  • STM

    Nothing like a nice big slab of dolphin.

    Sorry, make that mahi-mahi. Nice “cooked” in a marinade, and best eaten at sunset overlooking the gentle waves of the south pacific on a remote Fijian island sitting in a jeweled sea.

    Yeah, that’s the life …

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Ape shit? Wow, you really do read into things! I disagree with you and I’m going ape shit…

    You folks just keep watching MSNBC with the rest of your friends…

    Happy hour runs 24 hours a day at my house..you’re not invited!

    I asked a question about your name, sorry I don’t speak what you liberals believe should be our national language. But since I babble fished it, I guess it’s really the nickname all your old girlfriends gave you…to bad about the tiny part…they always called me grande pistola!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    handy – I agree that things have to change and I gave you plenty of areas where it can change…but mandates and govt run BS isn’t the way to fix it. Giving it to nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to figure out will NEVER be the way to fix it. Their political views don’t come close to representing the wishes of the American people. When I hear congressmen say that they’re gonna vote for it no matter what their constituents say, and most of them haven’t even read it, I get really pissed!

    Maybe, just maybe, if this new president took SOMETHING other than the Cambridge police and grabbed it by the balls and said, this is the way I want it, then people might be able to get behind him. But all he’s done is spew bullshit and let the most liberal part of our govt try to fix things and that doesn’t work for me or many of the people I talk to on a regular basis…here I go…apeshit again!!!

    Ruvy may be right when he talks about nucking something…damn shame I live so close to DC!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Highly recommended: Betsy McCaughey’s appearance on Jon Stewart last night. Both hilarious and informative.

    Yes, that was lively, wasn’t it? So much so that they ran out of time! Haven’t got around to seeing the full segment online yet – have you?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I have not, Doc. Rachel Maddow offered some highlights last night. It couldn’t have been better if it was a scripted comedy sketch [and some may say that’s really what it was].

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    I loved it. How things have changed… comedians provide raw, factual news and journalists provide comic relief.

    A very interesting exchange between Jay Leno, Chuck Todd and Jeremy Scahill where Schahill pointed out that the media has been complicit in this shell game not only by the previous Administration but the present. With the release of Gov. Ridge’s book I sense the widening of division. What Ridge claims is something that requires a Special Prosecutor. We have several serious charges being made here. While Barack Obama urges us to look forward, we need to stop and take stock before we invest in this government any further.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I loved it. How things have changed… comedians provide raw, factual news and journalists provide comic relief.

    Perhaps Fox News is really just one big, endless comedy skit. :-)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    A very interesting exchange between Jay Leno, Chuck Todd and Jeremy Scahill

    Don’t miss my new article on the dismaying but unsurprising ignorance of the Constitution which Scahill displayed on that show.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I was off the computer for a couple of days – but I noticed that for all of zing zing’s whining, Clavos, when told to put up or shut up – shut up.

    That made me smile.

    In the meantime, you clowns are still clowning around, with a very fishy smell, to boot.

    Do carry on….

  • zingzing

    let’s all give ruvy a round of applause. he’s right! nuking tehran is a wonderful and pleasant idea. when it’s safe, let’s go and play with all the little dead kids’ blood and juggle skulls around. we could make necklaces out of their finger bones and sit the more complete corpses around tea tables texas chainsaw style and have a little party. on the living ones, we could have a contest to see who can spot the biggest tumor or who can make the largest ball of skin from just one person’s peelings. what fun!

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Actually, I’d rather nuke Afghanistan. Or better yet let’s give Afghanistan a 2 state solution. The southern half can become Pashtunistan and the Northern half can be Talibanistan. If women want to live in Talibanistan they do so at their own peril. In the meantime let’s delay nuking Tehran just yet; I’d rather send in a missionary force from Blackwater to try and convert them to Christianity.

  • zingzing

    silas: “If women want to live in Talibanistan they do so at their own peril.”

    well, that would take care of the taliban in a generation or so, which might be faster than we could do it. also, talibanistan would most certainly have the highest beard per capita in the world. also, heroin would be cheaper.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Cannonshop writes: #217

    “Cobra, Minimum Wage, ANY minimum wage, no matter how high you set it, will always be insufficient to support a family.

    Always.

    Raising it just cuts back on the number of employers willing to hire people who’re just starting out, and increases your cost-of-living (i.e. makes everything more expensive, cutting back on the number of customers.) Arguing minimum wage vs. insurance costs for FAMILIES is, therefore, a red-herring, and fundamentally disingenuous.”

    I point this out not to protest how low the minimum wage is, but how expensive employer provided health insurance is in comparison. Even with jobs that offer TWICE the minimum wage it would be hard pressed to justify paying $20,000 to cover one employee.

    If by 2020, as analysts say, health insurance costs are indeed twice the cost of what they are now, how many employers will drop insurance coverage altogether, or switch to plans with impossible co-pays and deductables?

    –Cobra

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Precisely my sentiments, zing. If they’re unable to reproduce they’ll take the gay paradigm and go out to recruit new members kindda like Menonites with attitude and turbans.

    Besides, Talibanistan has such a nice ring to it. The national anthem should be a hoot.

  • Cannonshop

    #240 The rising cost is an artifact, in large part, of the problem I’ve pointed out before-due to ins. companies being immune to antitrust law, you’ve got a serious case of no-competition going on, also price-fixing, and adding Government just means you also add in additional Bureaucracy and price-fixing along with the delights of Government Graft, government corruption (which is both more refined, and less easily removed, than Corporate corruption thanks to there being no effective way to shut the Government down, break it up, dismantle it, or prosecute it employing a neutral third party who can’t be favour-traded into laying off when the press finds something else to look at…)

    Other externalities include the Lawyer-Bonanza available in our Tort system, and the jackpot awards that drive up both un-necessary testing (and re-testing, repeatedly) driving up costs, added Bureaucratic red-tape (which will, guaranteed, be even Worse with Universal “Care”), and Medicare cost-overruns provide an artificially high “What the Market will Bear” for Drug companies (given what the percentage of prescriptions are going to recipients on the Government dollar already-Uncle sam is often willing to pay ridiculous prices because Uncle Sam doesn’t negotiate…he pays what’s demanded no matter how ridiculous if the right forms are approved…witness the 50,000 dollar claw hammer or the five thousand dollar SAE hex-nut for examples.)

    Flatly, Government doesn’t PROVIDE competition when it enters a market, it ELIMINATES it in favour of Government Monopolies that are often worse than Corporate monopolies and always far less answerable to..well… anybody.

    Break the Monopoly, and reform the Tort system, and costs will fall down to where they should have already been-this was shown with the break-up of the “absolutely necessary” Ma Bell monopoly on telephone service, as well as the breaking of railroad, oil, and steel monopolies, and the post-depression breaking up of banking trusts (which were, regrettably, re-allowed under the last five presidents, resulting not only in the present Economic maladies, but also the S&L scandals of the eighties).

    The other problem with that projection, (possibly THE problem) is that we’re set up for an inflationary spiral thanks to the “Stimulus” packages sponsored by both Bush, and Obama, and the whole ludicrous idea of “Too big to fail”. Our currency is devaluating and will continue to do so since economic production does not line up with our debt load as a nation. EVERYTHING is going to cost more, and wages will continue to be dropping in real-dollar amounts (That’s adjusted FOR inflation) as a result of these types of policies, along with the constant increase in what Uncle sam is willing to step in and offer easy credit terms or other short-sighted non-solutions (Spending, increased taxes, assuming tacit monopoly, etc etc.)

    We’re heading for where Britain was in 1977 economically, or Ireland at about the same time, and it’s for the SAME REASONS.

  • Clavos

    #242,

    Damn well put, Cannon.

    Excellent comment.

  • Diningroomtable

    ‘externalities’…fucking things…if we could just get ‘em then we could have some pure capitalism

    …wanders off giggling to play whack-a-mole

  • Cannonshop

    244 “Pure” Capitalism doesn’t work in the long-term any better than Socialism or Communism. There DO have to be limits-but the limits need to make sense. Preventing single enttities from buying their way to Monopoly status, for instance, makes sense. Protecting contracts with Law makes sense. Enforcing “Good Faith” negotiation in Labour makes sense, and consumer protection from fraud makes sense.

    Methods like price-fixing, quotas, and central planning do NOT MAKE SENSE-the reason for this, is that they don’t WORK-at least in the positive sense of providing protection for consumers and labour. Price-fixing generates shortages and low quality, the british steel industry’s fall demonstrates the problem with never-ending subsidies and government being in bed with industries. (the Soviets, of course, are so hammered upon that it’s become kind of pointless, but isn’t it interesting that the Chinese abandoned central planning in their economy in order to build one that functions?)

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Cannonshop writes:

    “Break the Monopoly, and reform the Tort system, and costs will fall down to where they should have already been-this was shown with the break-up of the “absolutely necessary” Ma Bell monopoly on telephone service, as well as the breaking of railroad, oil, and steel monopolies, and the post-depression breaking up of banking trusts (which were, regrettably, re-allowed under the last five presidents, resulting not only in the present Economic maladies, but also the S&L scandals of the eighties).”

    You can find the genesis of almost all of these deregulatory nightmares on K-STREET. Lobbyists for Big Insurance, Wall Street, etc. set the table. Common sense, and the historical precedent of trusts and monopolies in this nation would dictate that your logic, well versed here, should be followed.

    Problem is, Washington doesn’t run on logic. It runs on campaign donations, commercial ad buys, and walk around money.

    Were you, “Congressman” Cannonshop, to annunciate your ideas at a Town Hall meeting, you’d have Insurance Company cheerleaders show up with Mao signs decrying that you’re an “anti-capitalist”, and you’re trying to “knee-cap free enterprise.” You’ll have Fox News hating on you, that’s for sure.

    But you make a lot of very good points. I just don’t think that against the sea of lobbyist money, trust-busting reform like you suggest could happen.

    –Cobra

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    The excellent economics columnist at the NY Times, David Leonhardt, writes today about the interest that employers, unions, and drug companies, as well as insurance companies, have in keeping the system uncompetitive, i.e. monopolistic.

    The administration shied away from the type of competitive health insurance marketplace proposed by Sen. Ron Wyden as well as Rahm Emanuel’s brother Dr. Zeke. They believed it might prove too disruptive and cause strong opposition from a public wary of big changes.

    Unfortunately, that has happened anyway, so a system with increased insurance competition probably should have been proposed after all. Maybe it’s not too late?

    Real Choice? It’s Off Limits in Health Bills

  • Clavos

    Here’s Ezekiel Emanuel’s paper on the allocation of medical resources to patients, published in The Lancet in January, 2009.