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Democratic Core Values

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Many strategists and pundits agree that in order for the Democrats to win elections, they must present the voter with a set of core values that defines them. Frank Rich of the NYTimes argues this point today, and suggests that even though Iraq may be a losing proposition, it's a winner if the opponent can't succinctly present an alternative:

…As long as the Democrats keep repeating their own mistakes, they will lose to the party whose mistakes are, if nothing else, packaged as one heckuva show. It's better to have the courage of bad convictions than no courage or convictions at all.

What are Democratic core values? Are they moderate or liberal? Let's take a look at what are often considered core values of "Reagan conservatives," who make up part of the base of the Republican party. Those values are frequently quoted by Sean Hannity on his radio program:

  • limited government
  • individual liberty
  • personal responsibility
  • strong national defense

Nancy Pelosi released the "New Direction For America" this week, attempting to define the party's position on current issues, which for the sake of argument I'll combine with the "Big Picture" also found on the same site:

  • Affordable health care: Invest in research, fix the prescription drug program
  • Energy independence: Support alternative fuel research and stop subsidies
  • National Security: More assistance for first responders
  • Domestic Employment: Stop favoring companies that outsource, raise the minimum wage
  • Education Affordability: Stop underfunding NCLB and Pell Grants
  • Retirement Protection: Funding SS for all as opposed to cutting taxes for the rich
  • Fiscal Responsibility: Budget Discipline
  • Environmental Protection: Protect without interfering overly with innovation

The "platform" does not directly address Iraq, which is one of the main criticisms expressed thus far. It's hard to find, moreover, a way to synthesize these items into "core values" as the Republicans have done so successfully. As an example, most people know the Republicans are for "limited government," regardless of whether they know what that means or whether the Republicans achieve it when they're in power.

Here's my attempt to condense the viewpoints expressed most commonly by the party — perhaps others would do so differently and possibly better. But eventually, someone's got to do it — so here's my proposal:

Both sets of "core values" (including the one for Democrats that I propose here) include "individual liberty," so the question becomes which party stands up for it better. Many would argue that after 9/11, Democrats have argued against many of the infringements upon freedom that Republicans have engineered in the name of "national security." This is how I'd approach the liberty issue.

"Effective Government" to me implies less of a focus on the raw size of government — big or small, unruly or limited — and puts more emphasis on how it performs. We are a results-oriented country. If something can be handled better by government than by free enterprise — natural resource protection, for example — it should be handled by government; if the converse is true, let it be handled by free enterprise. The optimal size of government is that which enables it to be most effective, whether it's large or small. Perhaps "controlled" would be a better adjective, but I think the most effective is — ironically — "effective."

Thirdly, the most controversial — and perhaps the one most in need of adjustment — is "shared responsibility." I don't think this counters the perspective that individuals should be responsible for their own actions. On the other hand, it implies that's still the case but that there's also a degree to which a society is responsible for its collective actions. Employees are often reminded that they alone are responsible for their future; I think it's time we remind companies that it's *their* responsibility to provide the employee with the opportunity and tools so that they can do so.

One can only take "personal responsibility" if one is able; the recent overkill on the side of assigining poor behavior to an alleged disease — "intermittent explosive disorder" as a prime example — should not take away from the fact that there are some cases where someone's behavior *is* truly a symptom of chemical or biological imbalance. Further, this also implies society's responsibility in protecting natural resources – something that profit-making free enterprise isn't always focused on.

National security is one where Republicans have long held the lead, but Democrats can offer a better approach. Wes Clark has done a great job of emphasizing the role of diplomacy and the importance of exploring all avenues before resorting to military options. Democrats need to propose a more thoughtful and less arrogant foreign policy.

What are your opinions? How does one condense liberal and Democratic values into core principles that could be drilled into the public's mind? Is my proposed list accurate, or does it need to be modified?

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About JP

  • chris

    Where you’re going to lose the most support is the shared responsibilities on an individual level. Shared responsibilities has a hidden meaning of “wealth redistribution” or quasi-socialism. I always point to the fact that when our ancestors arrived in the US, they were basically told “Good Luck”. I think we should stick to that. I’m all for helping people in limited fashion (especially veterans; we need to do more there) but some of this shit has gotten out of control.

    We as a society should not be supporting a women who has had 4 children by 4 different men (I know her personally only by the fact that my dead brother had a child with her). She knows that no matter how many she has, the check will be there every month. This is what you remind me of by saying “shared responsibility”.

    Just my interpretation though…

  • Democrat core values? There are none! The Democrat Party has been in free fall for decades. Unfortunately, the GOP is hardly any better. Their “core values” are whatever Papal edicts are issued from the Christian money changers throughout the South. The Union may have won the Civil War but the Confederacy walked away with the spoils.

  • JustOneMan


    Interesting view… two points…

    1. “Wes Clark has done a great job of emphasizing the role of diplomacy and the importance of exploring all avenues before resorting to military options.” huh….Wes Clark is a footnote..Not even the dems are taking his position, which is an antiquated pre-911 view of the world. Haven’t we learned from the French-German-Russian UN joke that the world opinion doesn’t matter what does matter are Americans safe from terrorist.

    2. Kind of funny that you are hawking Billy Carters brothers book next to the title of this article. In fact he has done more that any other president in the history of the US to soil and tarnish our image. On the international stage allies and enemies of the US spit him on. Now he parades around as some “moral” bell weather.

    The Dems need to do more than go through the motions — name one piece of legislation that the Dems have sponsored to address any of the platform issues…. none and you have told the whole story by exposing the fact that –The “platform” does not directly address Iraq!!

    Pathetic at best!

  • JP

    JOM – The Dems’ lack of support of Clark is one of their follies, IMO. As for Jimmy Carter, I don’t share the ridiculous opinions some people have of him like the one you expressed. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

    Chris – I think “Good luck” is too harsh, if you ask me. That’s why I’m not a Republican. Somewhere between unquestioned support for all and total lack of safety net lies the optimum, I’m just trying to find the words to express it.

  • JustOneMan

    JP…by not laying out an Iraq plan it is not ” one of their follies” it IS there follie!

    PS. Heres a classic Johhny Carson Joke summarizing Billy’s Brother

    Carson as Carnac the Magnificent held up the envelope to his head, divined the answer — “Yes and no, pro and con, for and against” — opened the envelope and said, “Describe Jimmy Carter’s position on three major issues.”

  • troll

    jom – interesting…that you would bring up Carter’s scholarly nature

    for a better understanding of his (castrated) presidency let me refer you to Peter Abelard’s “Sic et Non”


  • JustOneMan

    troll…looks like some heavy reading…what are the cliff notes?

  • troll

    jom – they go something like this:

    to get to the truth of a matter you need to examine it from conflicting points of view



    James Webb won his primary race against a fairly formidable Democratic opponent and will face Republican George Allen in the battle for Virginia’s U.S. Senate seat this November– Webb staunchly opposes the Iraq War and forthrightly campaigned on that issue and a handful of others– Some gnashing-of-the-teeth Democrats of the DLC AUB LDP ilk have carped about Webb’s obvious military legacy and criticized his ‘vagueness’ on many issues and an apparent refusal to take a stand on others deemed important to those critics– Those party purists think their candidates should have thirty-second sound-bites on seventy-five issues so smoothly rehearsed and slickly deliverable only the shoeshine-and-a-smile of America’s perpetual Salesman WillyLoman would dare a challenge–As if politics should be played as Jeopardy(Saddam for a thousand, please, Alex)– Other pragmatic demo.’s lauded Webb as their only opportunity (therefore there is nothing to really lose) to defeat incumbent Allen in the fall– Frankly Webb’s unvarnished choice to actually run stoutly on PRINCIPLE instead of an expedient POSE is what truly engenders fear and trembling among the faithless hacks and shills promulgating candidacies everywhere– One seems to know for dead certain that Webb will never have to recuse himself due to a gender identity crisis when the feces hit the fan and the beleaguered demo’s real fear is that such spineful behaviour could somehow someday be demanded of them– Webb may never magnetize the big-money needed to upset the well heeled incumbency of media ‘cash cows’ like Allen* but so far he is clearly the most interesting ‘bellweather’-type challenger to the current corrupt one-party order–
    From the other end of the Democrats’ specious spectrum runs the incumbent Iraq War supporter Maria Cantwell– Her marginalized anti-war primary opponents are former Marine family man Mark Wilson and the principled Vietnamese woman Hong Tran both of whom were initially denied speaking privilege at a recent Seattle Incumbent-Only Democrat Confab under the arrogant guise that incumbency actually bestowed upon Cantwell the rich privilege of being ordained rather than challenged– The Party somehow must exist to facilitate only the incumbent candidate even when former shoo-in status of her campaign begins volubly hemorrhaging local support– Even the Seattle Times runs a guest op. ed. extolling professorial advice on how Cantwell can re-right her badly listing ship– In another regular newspiece the Times recounts how Cantwell sought an updated Iraq War de-briefing from a high-profile Lawrence Korb D.C. think-tank cravenly admitting the stubborn ineptitude of Iraq-as-a-year-of-TRANSITION– Exposed as largely a political-stance-as-mirage since its’ frequently repetitive voicings have failed to garner any re-vivified campaign traction it also exposes the deeply misinformed nature of her own Iraq intelligence about what is authentically transpiring/expiring ground level in Iraq– Her poorly calculated subterfuge seeks to camouflage her disingenuous spin and only mirrors the incredulity of Bush’s futile ‘stay the course’ slogan– Transition to what, Mariah?– A Republican upset??– The rich and privileged Cantwell seems at a loss for what to do or say next– Because Cantwell has proven herself a confident and very capable fundraiser the media has granted her cash cow status* and now actively seeks to aid her troubled campaign with unsolicited political advice printed as an editorial service from the Op. Ed. page directly to the incumbent herself– Like Webb’s primary success Cantwell’s primary difficulties may also serve as an interesting possible Bellweather phenomenon–

    **** Incumbent Senators, conventional wisdom factoids around the web, need to average $10,000/day in re-election campaign contributions–Where does all that money go the MEDIA might but then again might NOT ask??–Why???– Because it goes to them largely paid out to generously enhance the incumbents chances through lavish state of the art campaign advertising purchases– The more moolah you generate the more ads you can purchase flattering your political image and attacking your lesser funded opponents — Why would the media interfere with a bona-fide five star fundraiser reinforced with deep-pocket personal riches (how gained is of little import) seeking ordination?? Your guess is good as Hong Tran or Mark Wilson–

  • Arch Conservative

    Democrats core values……….

    abortion on demand
    blaming the US
    trying to be more like europe
    un ass kissing
    gay marriage
    lax punishments for pedophiles

    did i miss any?

  • JP

    Gee Arch, I had no idea that was coming. Thanks for providing something useful.

  • RogerMDillon

    Nope, you puked up all the same cliches that you always do. What’s astounding is that you haven’t bored yourself yet, but then that must be one of the benefits of being simple-minded.

  • Arch Conservative

    I forgot high taxes and income redistribution.

    Anytime JP!

  • Your core values do have the appeal of being clearer and less muddled than Pelosi’s proposal, but it looks like you’re just trying to turn the Democrats into kind of a socialistic GOP-lite with your main change being the ‘shared responsibility’ instead of ‘personal responsibility’. Plus, that one leg of the four-legged stool of the GOP is the one which appeals to people who actually vote accross party lines. Only a small elite on the far left like the idea of government or the social network or big brother being responsible for everything rather than individuals cleaning up their own messes.


  • JP

    Dave, my intent was to make a clear contrast, as much as possible, with the points frequently recited on the R side. I can’t find a list of 3 or 4 bullet points on the D side, which is what motivated me to write this. Of course I’m not deluded enough to think I can speak for millions of Americans, but it’s a list someone needs to articulate.

    There’s no need to debate those of the right, because the Republicans have done a better job of marketing their set of talking points. The right is practically begging the Democrats to produce such a list, and if they intend to stand as a principled party then writing it should be a priority.

    As far as the term ‘shared responsibility,’ I must repeat my intent is not to suggest “being responsible for everything,” which is the way you interpreted and elaborated upon it. I think beating the “personal responsibility” horse to death leads to a lack of recall that there are things–the environment, for example–that, as a good TomPaine article expressed recently, are often not best handled by the free market. An excerpt I liked that deals with this philosophical difference:

    The conservative philosophical trick was to assert the existence of natural free markets and then claim an identity between markets and the interests of society. That trick worked well, but the fallacy of its assumptions is now showing up in the corruption in politics and the gross inequities evident in society.

    Just like tax cuts, the “free market” is not a prescription that fixes everything. A place where everyone fends for himself and nobody lifts a finger to help anyone else is not an America I’d be proud of or an America I would want to live in, and I think that is at least in the area code of what drives the moderate Democrat.

    And after writing that last sentence, I have a nickel for the first idiot who jumps up and yells “Love it or leave it! Go USA!”

  • troll sez…
    *to get to the truth of a matter you need to *examine it from conflicting points of view*

    Quoted for Truth

    an very Imporant part of It all…

    example: comment #10 spews a certain digital bile…

    pre-packaged propaganda posturing prejudicial punditry parading and prancing in prosaic perambulation proposing poopie

    let us examine the typical ad hominem attack from one point of View, as espoused in aforementioned comment… i will Respond in bold

    *abortion on demand*- true nuff, referred to as Freedom of Choice..a medical procedure between a woman and her doctor, a relationship defined by Law as well as peer reviwed professional Ethics…see Reagan points 1,2 and three

    *socialism*- please define your Term here, i don’t think you are using this Word correctly..i could be wrong….please cite some of these “socialists” in your Opinion…and why you label them so…otherwise, i call bullshit

    *blaming the US*- again, i’d like some examples..because i just don’t see this one…i know the Accusation fo doing so is slung around a lot, but i just don’t see any American “blaming” the US for shit…i know there is a lot of Questioning the Administration and other agents of our government about things…but that is NOT “blaming the US”..that’s questioning the people running the government and policy…or even actions…but far different than blaming the country…but it does sound ugly when you accuse decent people of it…

    *trying to be more like europe*-some do, some don’t…about some things, but not others…it’s more of a “learn what we can, where we can…especially from other’s Mistakes” kind of Thing..

    *un ass kissing*- puh-leeEEEEeeezzze…see above…a good foreign Policy plays ALL the Instuments in the “orchestra” of the world Stage…grow up

    *hypocrisy*-like being for “small government”, but growing it fasters than just about anybody ever…or like “fiscal responsibility” that goes from surplus to deficit…not even counting the disaster relief or two live military conflicts…that kind of “hypocrisy”?…both sides are stinky on this one…

    *gay marriage*- well yeah..again see Reagan’s points 1,2 and 3…ya know , the whole “pursuit of happiness” thing

    *lax punishments for pedophiles*- pure and unAdulterated bullshit..please cite examples of the democrats actually espousing such a position? are you talking about singular nutcases here? i was completely unAware of how this one got into the DNC’s party platform…

    Disclaimer: the Individual typing this does not now, nor has ever been, a member of ANY political Party…and thus has no “dog in this Hunt”

    now..if some raving left wing loony toon wants to sound off all rabid and raving…i’ll be just as happy to pop those balloons too…cuz the sterotypical broad brush rants against republicans are just as stupid, inane and innaccurate as the verbal vivisection above….

    to JP…

    point on your bullet points… keep personal Responsibility and ADD Civic Duty!

    those of you schooled in the US and under 40 never saw this in school…but you used to actually get taught Civics as a required subject…just like Greek or Latin were
    Civic Duty and Responsibility both to and from our Republic is sorely lacking in many areas…on this you can check the empirical data and see how it correlates EXACTLY to when it stopped being taught

    your mileage may vary


  • blast…

    seems i missed a “tag”



  • JustOneMan


    REpublican vs Democrat Core Values – Putting Ones Money Where Their Mouth Is – Let The Numbers Speak For Themselve

    Kerry’s returns from 1995 and earlier, before his marriage to Heinz, have sometimes attracted criticism over the issue of charitable giving. In 1995, according to published reports, Kerry reported a taxable income of $126,179, and charitable contributions of $0. In 1994, he reported income of $127,884, and charitable donations of $2,039. In 1993, he reported income of $130,345, and contributions of $175. In 1992, he reported income of $127,646, and contributions of $820. In 1991, he reported income of $113,857, and contributions of $0.

    As far as Bush is concerned, in 1991, the future president, then a private citizen, reportedly had income of $179,591, and charitable contributions of $28,236. In 1992, Bush reported income of $212.313, and contributions of $31,914. In 1993, Bush reported income of $610,772, and contributions of $31,292. In 1994, Bush reported income of $474,937 and in 1995, income of $419,481. Published reports at that time did not list Bush’s charitable contributions for those two years.

    In 1997 Al and Tipper Gore contributed just $353 to charity on a salary of almost 200k plus expenses.

  • JustOneMan

    Gonzo…”Disclaimer: the Individual typing this does not now, nor has ever been, a member of ANY political Party…and thus has no “dog in this Hunt”—

    Hmmmmmmm lets just keep to the facts…your diatribe says it all…Ill you were or still are a Deaniac….

  • RogerMDillon

    Of course, because Republicans never cheat on their taxes. Yawn!

    JustOneBrainCel, we know you believe whatever you are told by your party leaders and aren’t capable of your own thoughts, but get back to us after Bush’s records have been audited and you actually have facts.

  • Baronius

    OK, I haven’t read the article yet, but since I’m signing off I thought I’d point out one funny thing about Pelosi’s plan: fund, invest, stop underfunding, fund, support, and “fiscal responsibility”?

  • Good point, Baronius. It does look like the Pelosi plan is basically to spend us into oblivion.


  • troll

    geez – I think that we passed oblivion a while back…Pelosi’s plan would get us all the way to the gates of hell


  • JustOneMan

    [Edited] I didnt make these up…these were the IRS disclosures…whem you dont like the message from the Washington Post and The NYT all of of a sudden they arent credible sources…rather than address the FACTS you throw stones…a true Democrat…no plan, no solutions

    [I presume you enjoy visiting Blogcritics, JOM, so please leave out the ad hominems… Thank you. Comments Editor]

  • Are the gates of hell the exit after oblivion or before?

  • troll

    our politicos don’t know either and refuse to stop to ask…it’s a macho thing


  • That was good troll…hadn’t even considered the stopping to ask for direction thing!


  • troll

    does everyone think that the basic Democratic values express in Roosevelt’s Deal and ‘good neighbor policy’ and the founding documents of the UN are dead – ?

    these express ideas about the responsibility of governments to ordinary people: to ensure delivery of health care – social security – work at a ‘fair’ wage – time off – food – clothing – a roof – education – freedom from perpetual war

    isn’t it time for the mistakes of JFK to be put aside and for citizens to start asking what their governments are supposed to do for them – ?

    civics is a double edged blade


  • i can only gape in Awe when everyone’s favorite troll sez…
    *isn’t it time for the mistakes of JFK to be put aside and for citizens to start asking what their governments are supposed to do for them – ?

    civics is a double edged blade*

    Quoted for Truth

    remember kiddies , in american Society the State has NO power in and of itself…it is a construct based upon our agreement under the social Covenant of our Constitution and granted clearly delineated and limited powers in our name…

    thus, when something like the checks and balances built into the system to aid in protecting We the People form possible abuses and over reaching of those charged with weilding said power occur…

    we get to toss them feet first into a wood chipper on prime time live TV…

    do that during sweeps week a few times and not only will the System clean itself up, but everyone else will stop fucking with us after they see what we do to our own when they are “bad”

    just a thought while having coffee…


  • talk about reality TV! What’s in that cawfee gonzo?

  • troll

    (yup – back in the day a public drawing and quartering (and tying bows with intestines) went a long way toward keeping folks on the straight and narrow

    unfortunately it’s hard to put the brakes on when We The People run amok with license


  • good point, troll…but since i will be chief justice according to the other Thread, i can stop the practice when i am ready to retire!!!


    kidding..a Jest…

    really….i’m being cereal now….

    oh yeah..and nothing in it Andy, except half and half with some sugar…i am not a morning person


  • Nancy

    JOM (#3) made a good point that the Dems need to stop just going thru the motions; he’s right that they talk & posture (as do the GOPs) but actually DO nothing that might possibly finger them come election time as having taken a position on anything, let alone tried to get anything passed in a serious manner, even in a stacked congress. They haven’t done anything even when there was a majority Dem congress, except enhance their own positions of privilege, power, and opportunities to plunder the public trough, which the GOP gleefully hopped right into once THEY got in.

    They could start by refusing to engage in Earmarking. Yes, it would seem to put them at a disadvantage initially in that their districts might miss out on the pork plunder – but I think it would make up for it by being something they could use to powerfully embarrass the GOPs in the long run.

    Ditto keeping their noses clean respecting “free” trips, perks, goodies, gimmies, campaign donations, etc. That would include no pal-ing around with lobbyists. Initially, there might be some negatives, but in the long run, it would be a powerful weapon in the public perception, IF they’d get off their asses & USE it instead of sitting on their thumbs. IMO getting rid of Jefferson was the correct thing to do, race or no race (& I think Jefferson is just playing the race card to try to weasel out of getting caught & punished, aka another criminally inclined politico brother, one Marion Barry, or more recently Rep. What’s-Her-Name the Cop Smacker).

    The Dems could also buy some credibility by actually fighting for – in a meaningful way, by taking as much action as they can – increasing the minimum wage. The House just gave itself a $3,300 salary increase. THAT alone would be a powerful tool for embarrassment & some significant arm-twisting, if they’d just USE it.

    As it is, as JOM pointed out, they have no credibility because they won’t do anything that might even possibly pin them down on record; and he’s right in that even a bad or wrong position, strongly held, is better than none at all.

    As it is, they’ve become the Party of Weenies. I can’t vote for any of them, and I WON’T vote for the GOP, whom I regard as hopelessly corrupt at this present stage.

    The Dems have 5 months; they’d better get off the pot & get their moral asses in gear.

  • ummmm Nancy..one thing…

    the Minority cannot even put forward an amendment to a bill under study without the Majority’s permission…watch C-SPAN sometime, and then compare the proceedings to what was the norm when the Dems ran the House or Senate…the difference is breathtaking

    let us just say that IMO, under the current Rules as applied by the Majority…Gingrich and all his buddies would still be back benchers in a Minority with no one ever having heard of them…THAT is how big a difference there is

    at least the Dems used to pay lip service to the idea of fairness…under the GOP leadership, spearheaded by Rove…it’s pitiful to observe

    i understand that it is very obscure and not easily noticed by the public at large, but this Issue alone is possibly the single greatest observable Symptom of the inernal rot in DC today

    again, it comes to checks and balances

    come November…vote gridlock


  • troll, the only thing the vast majority of Americans want their government to do for them is leave them the hell alone.

    And gonzo, fairness is an illusion, and there is nothing more unfair than imposing one vision of fairness on people and thereby depriving them of the fair opportunity to advance themselves as best they can on their own merits.

    The reason America works as well as it does – and it’s still not perfect – is that we’re basically a meritocracy. The doctrine of imposed fairness as proposed by many on the left destroys that one remaining strong virtue of the nation by saying ‘if you succeed, if you work hard, the government will punish you’.


  • Nancy

    I like your idea better of just picking up a Uzi & blowing all the bastards away. It saves wasting time of trash that doesn’t deserve the time of day.

  • to comment #35…

    an “illusion” eh?

    good thing i’m gonna be CJ of SCOTUS, and yer the POTUS



  • Nancy

    Gonzo, I have to agree: it is an illusion, in that the richer you are, the fairer things are for you, here in the US of A. Look at congress.

  • troll

    interesting that people would consider sharing wealth for humanitarian purposes a punishment rather than a personal responsibility…

    *the only thing the vast majority of Americans want their government to do for them is leave them the hell alone*

    perhaps because that government has been doing other than ensuring the fundamentals


  • troll – I’m more than willing to share YOUR wealth with everybody! I personally have no wealth…so leave the little bit I have alone please?

  • Nancy

    Alas, the only “wealth” most of us have is the individual share of the National Debt run up for us, ostensibly on behalf of the feckless & ungrateful Iraqis by Junior & Co. What is it up to now – about $13,840 apiece, man-woman-& child is the figure I heard on WTOP yesterday?

  • I’ll admit to a little wealth when I have one car in my driveway with under 100K on the odometer…

    and a boat…and a jet ski…and a quad…and all the other toys I WANT…

    …as it stands…I have none of this…therefore…I’m poor!

    HELP ME…redistribute some wealth my way!

  • Nancy

    From what I was once given to understand by The Troll, you might not don’t want to share his wealth, perhaps. The concept of ‘wealth’ can be very subjective….

  • troll

    Andy – I’m confident that you will prove the exception and take yours with you

    (just kidding…xxoo)

    but which is it…no wealth or a little – I suspect that you like me are an Ugly American blithely watching the world starve because no effective (er – profitable that is) mechanisms can be agreed on to prevent it

    would a voluntary system of taxation make life better for you – ?


  • how many folks do you suppose would “donate” to a voluntary tax system?

    Maybe if I was told, you have to pay X amount of dollars and then given a list of how and where my money could be spent…that might work for me! Sort of like that box on the 1040 that asks if I want to put 2 or 3 dollars into the federal campaign fund…yeah right!

    and yes troll…they’re gonna have to dig a really big hole to pile all my crap right on top of me when I die! I think a really big bonfire would be better though with me or what’s left of me at the top!

    I’m not starving…my family’s not starving…so, I guess…it would be a little. I also share a little of that…probably not as much as I should…but I still share.

  • troll

    *I also share a little of that…probably not as much as I should…but I still share.*

    me too

    *how many folks do you suppose would “donate” to a voluntary tax system?*

    that would depend on what they were buying I guess


  • JustOneMan

    Editor…I assume by your edits you only edit those poster and posts that you do not agree with>

    hmmmm RogerMDillllin___ in #20 can post without an edit but if I disagree with him and respond in kind..only my comments are edited…hmmm I guess we have free speach here as long as we agree with the editor…sorta like the Main Stream Media …ehhh…I guess tha blogosphere is staring to grow up…too bad!

  • RogerMDillon

    You must have trouble with reading comprehension. I never said you made anything up. My point was that just because something is written down on a tax form doesn’t make it a fact. Is that the number they declared? Yes. Do you know if the number is correct? No.

    “whem you dont like the message from the Washington Post and The NYT all of of a sudden they arent credible sources”

    Sounds like conservative complaints over the past few years. But, I’m no Democrat. I’m not registered with them, they are screwing up California, and I vote for them as often as I do a Republican, which is rare. The only candidate that I already know I’m voting for in the fall is Republican Tom McClintock for Lt. Governor because I agree with most of his positions. Both parties and the political system are a joke in this country.

    The blogosphere is waiting for you to grow up; however, I doubt it will hold its collective breath.

    Although to quell your conspiracy theories, let me show that I also can be censored by calling you one of the d*mb*st, f*ck*n’ r*t*rds I have ever witnessed stumble across this site. I am amazed that you are able to drag your knuckles off the ground and type readable sentences. Not only are you the guy that Anthony Grande stands next to when he wears his “I’m with Stupid” t-shirt, but Pro-Choice protestors hold up signs with your face on it to succinctly prove their point.

    Now that will quickly be cleaned up regardless of whether or not Mr Rose agrees with me, which I’ll wager a small amount that he does, so please spare the complaints and whining about how unfairly you are treated because you asked for this lesson and have no one to blame but yourself.

  • JustOneMan


    Why cant you answer the question and address the issues…You couldnt kick my ass on your own..you needed your boyfriend –

    [Edited] just answer the question and address the issues [Edited]

  • Great response, Roger. I hope it doesn’t meet the capricious axe of the mighty comments editor.


  • RogerMDillon


    I understand I’m supposed to be insulted by your gay references, but it has no effect.

    You are either not too bright or insane because every time you use that name it gets deleted. Are you expecting a different outcome?

    I did address the issues. You think whatever someone writes on their tax form is a fact. You must have been the guy auditing Enron’s returns. You think I’m a Democrat and I explained I wasn’t. You think that you are selectively being edited. Mr Rose being in Europe is probably still sleeping, but he will attend to this column soon enough and prove that wrong as well.

    Feel free to set the example of maturity and I’ll follow.

  • RogerMDillon

    Thanks, Dave, but I intended it to cross a line, so I’d be surprised if it stood. However, I am thinking of opening up a CafePress store and putting it on mugs.

  • RogerMDillon

    I know I should let it drop, but you are so dumb it baffles the mind. You should really donate your abby normal brain to science.

    I made no particular mention of women or any minority? Do you think only women are Pro-Choice? Once you lose your virginity, you might have a different take on it. Anthony Grande is a commentor on the site, not some generic caricature like The Frito Bandito. And if a person is mentally disabled, would they have the self-awareness to think they were being insulted if they read that? Who’s the oversensitive lib now?

    I have already voted for Republican candidates and conservative issues, but that’s when I feel they are the positions that make sense to me. Feel free to prove I haven’t or move along.

    What other issues other than your ignorance need to be responded to? I’m let slide yet another gay refernce on your part by not questioning why you have a need to mention my balls.

  • JustOneMan

    Balls..you have balls…who would have guessed! Never in a million years…

  • RogerMDillon

    and you seem preoccupied with them.

  • JustOneMan


  • I’m not picking sides here, but the fact that comment #49 got edited and #48 didn’t really does say something about the comments editors around here…

  • JP

    Troll, you said it all in #39.

    Dave, “troll, the only thing the vast majority of Americans want their government to do for them is leave them the hell alone.” Not sure which vast majority you’re talking about, but I believe the government is often chosen to play neutral 3rd party in disputes brought to the judicial branch. There’s also things like public parks and libraries taken advantage of by millions. One gets out what one puts in.

    Finally, I’m not reading all the back-and-forth here, but boy did this stir up some shi*!

  • Andy, as I believe you already know, there is only one Comments Editor – but if you LOOK more carefully, you’ll see that they were both edited, each in their own appropriate way, based on the merits of each case, to the best of the Comments Editor’s abilities, such as they may be.

  • so Christopher…if I replace a couple of letters in an insult with astericks I can throw it any way I want to?

    I did look…that’s why I made the comment in the first place. You might see it differently than I do…obviously you MUST see it differently than I do…one comment is edited so it can still be read the other comments are completely edited out…just because the words dumbest fuckin’ retards has no vowels in it in the comment…does that make it less offensive?

    And no, I didn’t know you were the ONLY comment editor…I figured you were the more liberal comment editor is all…no offense.

  • on a side note Christopher…I feel for you…having to read through all of this…stuff!

  • Andy, personally I can see a lot of difference between a known BC character making a deliberate point and some anonymous person making persistent and repeated childish insults although your mileage may vary.

    There is also a persistent delusion on this site that I am some kind of liberal. That is a major error of judgement. Personally, I’d delete far more drivel off this site but the owners want a more open house and a policy of toleration of almost any opinion. I live to serve their wishes and am happy to follow their directive to the best of my abilities.

    As to the Comments Editor, just like in Highlander, there can be only one, lol!

  • I suppose you’re as liberal as I am conservative!

    I think what bothers me the most is that I see the comments before and after the edited ones and miss ALL the good stuff! It’s like driving past the accident AFTER they’ve picked up all the bodies!

    Even the guy that wrote the comment expected it to be edited…didn’t realize that regulars had a more liberal comment policy than the rest of the world…guess my mileage varies. Calling someone a knuckle dragger and the dumbest fucking retard…is a personal attack…even if he is one! Not saying he is or isn’t…just trying to figure out how this works is all….

  • I don’t know how conservative you are, Andy, but I do know I’m not a liberal. I guess if I was pressed I would admit to being an ethical pragmatist and that I absolutely don’t trust dogma, whether it’s secular or spiritual…

  • Alix

    Democrats can not take a position on values because they are so tied to the ACLU. This group has no values and they are made up of the left fringe which gives so much money to the democrats. Until the democrats are willing to stand up against the ACLU, no one will ever believe the democrats have values.

  • Alix sez..
    *Democrats can not take a position on values because they are so tied to the ACLU.*

    blatant falsehood…that woudl be like trying to say everyone in the GOP is directly tied to Jerry Falwell…

    since your thesis postulate is fallacious, the entire point of your “axiom” is proven false, and your ability to Reason coherently is called into Question…

    thus you show your “values” are not defined, and the comment cannot be taken seriously as anything else but a muddily thought out attempt at propaganda

    thanks for playing, please try again


  • Until the democrats are willing to stand up against the ACLU, no one will ever believe the democrats have values.

    Until Republicans are willing to stand up to the Neo-Nazi Right Wing Religious Conservative faction of the party; the United States of America will continue down the slippery slope to anarchy and revolution. You would have thought that the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave would be the first to realize that oppression breeds revolution. As far as I am concerned people like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the rest of their cult are traitors to our Founding Fathers. They are a cancer on our society and to the world as a whole. As far as I am concerned, Al Quaeda is right on one point. Our troops are crusaders. Unbeknownst to the fine men and women who serve us, they have been used as pawns in a silent Holy War bred and fed buy the Moral Majority.

  • Arch Conservative

    Well considering the ACLU sticks up for NAMBLA, pedophiles and illegal aliens and the christian right sticks up for jesus, traditional values, and babies in the womb.. I think I’ll throw in with the christian right.

    Given the ACLU’s penchant for defendign the most vile, perverse elemnts of our society I am surprised more are not so vehemnetly opposed to them. I wonder what it would take to get certain people to start blowing up ACLU offices ala Planned Parenthood………

  • MCH

    Actually, there are probably more phonies and hypocrites with “the christian right” than the ACLU, Archie…

  • Arch….do you actually read and believe what you type?

    i mean, seriously, i am genuinely curious…

    does your actual worldview really believe that drivel, and why? or do those kinds of baseless lies suit your partisan purposes?

    you do realize there are hard core conservatives in the ACLU (like former rep Bob Barr, etc) who are there to protect the Rights of citizens…even those you may not like

    now, i fucking DEFY you to find me an example of them defending a lawbreaker rather than them standing up for the underlying principle of someones Rights (such as Free Speech)…i also don’t l;ike the idea of defending certain assholes in our society…but i know their Right to be assholes needs to be defended until they cross that line and break the Law…
    that you throw in with the “christian right” whole hog…rather than deal with things issue by issue, shows the intellectual bankruptcy of your dogmatic opinions

    not to worry. yer gonzo is here to pry open the metaphorical “third eye” of Reason…no matter how long it takes to get you to join the human race in the 21st century

    there, ain’t that comforting?



  • Arch Conservative

    now, i fucking DEFY you to find me an example of them defending a lawbreaker rather than them standing up for the underlying principle of someones Rights

    there are countless examples but ill just offer one

    the aclu threatened to sue the the minutemen (legal american citizens) on behalf of illegal aliens crossing the border if the minutemen in any way interferred with thier illegal journey

  • Alix

    Well Gonzo and Silas, let’s take the legal system for example. The judges that decide to let molesters go free because they think there too short for jail, they need counseling instead of jail, they don’t think the child may have been seriously injured, the ACLU believe that these molesters have rights to live where they please and should not be monitored. There are Republican Senators and Govenors throught the country that are trying to put laws into effect such as Jessica’s Law, however, the opposition comes from The ACLU and Democratic Govenors and Congresional leaders. Why is freedom of speach protected by the ACLU and the willing Democrats when Christianity is attacked, however, it is harmful to create negative images of other religions, most notably Islam. I find it interesting you call the far right neo-nazi, when it is Republican’s have done more for African American’s then any other president. Look at home sales among African American’s as well as business ownership. Look at the Cabinet of President Bush compared to President Clinton. As far as Jerry Falwell is concerened, it is quite obvious that we don’t carry his water considering some of our most popular Republicans are pro-choice and also believe in civil unions among gays. Name a pro-life democrat who spoke at the convention.

  • well i will say thaks for the effort Arch..much appreciated

    however what you offered was an alleged threat of an action that was not, by your very statement, actually put into any kind of action

    is that correct?

    that is NOT “Given the ACLU’s penchant for defendign the most vile, perverse elemnts of our society I am surprised more are not so vehemnetly opposed to them.” as you put it…not by a long shot

    and as i already pointed out, what the ACLU tends to defend in these instances are the Free Speech cases, which is free to even the most vile pigfuckers in our Nation… that pesky “equal protection” thing again…

    what really bloggles my mind here is when you say things like..
    *I wonder what it would take to get certain people to start blowing up ACLU offices ala Planned Parenthood………*

    that is actively advocating terrorism…you know that, right?

    so what makes your position advocating blowing up innocent people different from al Qaeda?

    terrorism = terrorism , no matter the theoretical “cause”

    and if you need to resort to that level of tactics, not only have you lost, but you prove your position is morally and ethically bankrupt as well

    here i had thought better of you than that…

    ah well


  • ok..Alix posted again while i was typing…

    again, you show no internal Logic in your writings…and thus make it very difficult to communicate meaningfully with you…

    example: Alix sez…
    *The judges that decide to let molesters go free because they think there too short for jail, they need counseling instead of jail, they don’t think the child may have been seriously injured, the ACLU believe that these molesters have rights to live where they please and should not be monitored.*

    you have squashed multiple incidents into here, and made absurd allegations with NOTHING shown to provide evidence for said accusations..
    1) the guy that the judge let out for being too short…what was he indicted and convicted for? now, i can agree he should not have been let out…but this is an isolated incident of one Judge…and the prosecutor can easily appeal the ruling…it had nothing whatsoever to do with the Topic…so it remains a non-sequitor
    2)you say “they don’t think the child may have been seriously injured,”…please provide who said this bit of silliness, because i think you just make some of this shit up, or are repeating what some moron said…again no facts..

    on and on, you confuse and conflate incidents and make unsubstantiated claims

    now, are there some problems? of course…but thes eproblems are not made worse by the process of protecting Rights, instead they are given a clarity of definition and helped through the process by these very discussion in Court…and our review system is there to ensure that no SINGLE person makes these decisions alone

    i realize some want a system to enforce christoid taliban style Law…but, fortunately, our Constitution prevents it…and there are folks who utilize the system to protect it

    just as there are some on BOTH sides of the aisle who abuse it

    checks and balances…you may not like it, but that’s the American Way


  • Alix

    The short child molestor plead guilty to molesting a 13 year old girl. READ the Nebraska news. It was the Ohio judge who didn’t feel a man who plead guilty shouldn’t serve jail time because he thought the molestor needed counseling instead. If you read the transcripts, you will also read his opinion of the boys he molested as not being seriously hurt. In case your a little slow, punishment for molestors is a part of a values that Republican’s have and look for in Democrats. When Republican’s try and make mandatory sentencing such as Jessica’s law and are receiving opposition from Democrats, it speaks volume. In case your not sure, but this country is about 85% religious and you may not like it, but it is. When the ACLU have a problem with Christmas Carols being sung in schools (Maplewood, NJ) and the democrats are silent, it speaks volume. When the ACLU have a problem with a muslim woman not taking off her head scarf for a driver’s license picture(Florida) and Democrat’s defend it, it speaks volumes. When the ACLU have a problem with a student wanting to mention God or where a t-shirt with god and is not allowed and nothing is said from Democrats, it speaks volumes. These are some values that American’s look for in Democrats.

  • Nancy

    Nnnnnnaaawwww…I remember a few of these cases Alix cites, Gonz; they did indeed occur (altho I can’t call to mind the specifics), BUT as you said, it was a question of individual looney-tune, idiot judges, not the ACLU, as I recall with my admittedly spotty, aging memory.

    Even tho it’s come up in previous threads, I still admit the ACLU has me perplexed: occasionally I consider they do Good Work; the rest of the time I wonder where the hell their minds are. It’s like they have no discernment whatsoever, no understanding of what the implications are of what they’re defending. THEY may think they’re defending free speech, but that’s not how it comes across to the 99.99% of the rest of the world, including the some of the deviants they’ve defended, who take it as a benediction to go forth & Sin. The problem is, that being typical lawyers, they focus so narrowly on the letter of the law & the issue, they wear blinkers & are blinded to the rest of it. So, they may end up defending freedom of speech – a good thing, I guess, in most instances, especially if it’s mine 😉 – but they sure do alienate a lot of people otherwise because their successful defenses often do carry implicit attending rights, etc. with them.

    Haven’t heard about the minutemen thing, but I can’t see how anybody can be sued for preventing or interfering with lawbreaking, unless they were planning on using deadly force. Why did the minutemen back down? Sounds like a “bring it on” moment to me.

  • thanks for citing more accurately Alix..it does help when more coherence is utilized and specific incidents are cited for review…

    as Nancy said, it still remains single idiots Judges, and you have yet to demonstrate where the ACLU was involved

    as for your “values” bit..again you hit non-sequitor by broad brushing the GOP on oje side and the Dems on the other…to make matters worse, you conflate Dems with the ACLU..

    two…different…organizations….look it up, in case you are a little slow (to quote you back at yourself)

    a last parting shot, since Alix likes ot generalize…when you say the Dems silence speaks volumes on some of these Issues that focus on either Free Speech, or seperation of church and state…does the converse also hold true?

    when warrantless searches and torture are done by the government, does the Republican silence also speak volumes?

    ah yes, those good christian Inquisition values…

    spare me the drivel


  • Alix

    I conflate the Democrats with the ACLU because they are interwinded. It is a long tradition that ACLU are big Democratic supporters. The ACLU came in these cases because of the opposition of the Republican’s. repub. wanted mandatory sentencing and the ACLU does not. Repub. leaders want more greater monotoring and the ACLU does not. I’m glad you brought up the last 2 items. When Clinton used a warrantless search ona Russian spy, there was no outrage from either the media or Democcrats. Don’t recall the ACLU getting involved. Don’t remember the Russian guys name, but it can easily be checked from Google. Also, if the MSM didn’t hate Bush so much they may have put the fact that FISA judges, actual FISA judges stated that a warrent is not needed for what Bush is doing. Freedom od speech is not being violated in these cases. Regarding torture, it is 2 fold. #1, most of the prisioners are not entitled to the Geneva Convention since they are not recognized uniformed soldiers for a country and #2 Please define torture for me. Listening to loud music or raising the tempature is not torture. If you can cite for me where an American either cut a limb or beat someone or drowned them I may agree that is torture. STRIPPING SOMEONE NAKED I WOULD WELCOME OVER HAVING MY HEAD CUT OFF OR MY EYEBALLS PULLED OUT WHILE I’M STILL ALIVE.

  • There is also a persistent delusion on this site that I am some kind of liberal. That is a major error of judgement. Personally, I’d delete far more drivel off this site but the owners want a more open house and a policy of toleration of almost any opinion. I live to serve their wishes and am happy to follow their directive to the best of my abilities.

    If Christopher were a liberal he wouldn’t edit the comments at all, because liberals believe in free speech.


  • Alix..again, your statements are in direct opposition to both Fact and Logic…

    has it slipped your attention that many of the ACLU’s staff and court room lawyers are Republicans…former Rep. Bob Barr comes to mind…a rock solid conservative that now works at the ACLU full time…there’s more..go and look them up

    then perhaps you will treat each organization as seperate entities…it’s like saying the Crystal Cathedral is the same as the GOP…apples and oranges

    as for the FISA bit, quote your source, because it is widely documented the opposite way…there are many legal opinions , including at least one recorded officially from a FISA judge, stating that what was done is in direct opposition to the FISA statutes… i am interested in reviewing your source..

    1) prisoners and the geneva conventions – you are using Gonzalez’s justification which have yet to stand judicial review…we will see how this plays out, either way..they are american prisoners , yes?

    2)define torture? ok..let’s jst take ONE example of what Gonzalez, the WH and our Administration sez is ok…
    now the WH doesn’t see it as “torture” and yet in the Maleficia (the handbook used by the Inquisition)..it is listed as one of the most effective tortures the Inquisition has/had

    hope that helps…

    suggestion, try critical thinking


  • Alix

    Gonzo, Dave, Silas or Nancy: If liberals(Democrats) believe in free speech, why was Pro-life Gov. Casey of PA not allowed to speak at the Democratic convention when Pro-choice Guiliani, Arnold, Pataki and others were allowed to speak at the Republican conventions?

  • Alix..did any of those folks you mention speak about being pro-choice?

    answer carefully, i watched both conventions

    and again, your Logic is non-existant in that you confuse an organization and their promoting a political agenda with a Citizen’s Right to free speech

    if i am selling widgets, and paying for a big widget convention… as a private function..i am under NO obligation to give my competitors time at my private function

    try thinking things out rather than spewing AM radio host drivel

    until then…



  • Alix

    Gonzo, these are the following FISA judges who spoke in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee in March and said the President broke no law:
    Judge Allan Kornblum, Stanley Brotman, John Keenan and William Stafford. This is verafiable with a Google search. Gonzalez justification has not been found to be illeagal. You can’t say it is illeagal just because someone want’s it to be. Waterboarding has been around for years and has not been challanged as torture. People are still alive from it. I’m waiting for a cut limb, beating or a head cut off.

  • again…selective cherry picking… 4 out of 11 Judges on the FISA court…and this commentor chooses the 4 that agree, and yet ignores the 7 who disagree

    bah…keep waiting, you have managed to confirm that not only can’t you stay on topic, but your feeble attempts are not worth my time…

    into the ignore bin


  • Nancy

    Actually, if you’re talking about people we cop who are fighting us, I don’t care if we DO skin them alive. In fact, I was delighted that someone had the brains to avoid the Geneva Convention by ensuring that Al-Zarqawi was taken dead, not alive. Pity no one thought of that when they dragged Hussein out of his hole. And if they have any smarts, it’s a carcass they’ll be parading of bin Laden as well, I hope.

    As for the ‘illegal’ issue, the problem is that BushCo. is over-using & abusing discretionary non-observance; currently, it’s whatever he says it is, and that stinks, even to Republicans, while on the other hand, BushCo is also trying to say that things are illegal just because they say they are. Y’can’t have it both ways, which is what Junior is trying to do. He out-Nixons Nixon.

  • Alix

    Please name your 11 judges. I find it interesting you have not cited 1 freedom of speach violated or supported by Republicans, not 1 act of torture involving a cut limb, beating, drwoning or even a broken bone or a violation of search and seizure. Maybe you are not worthy on this site if you can not provide facts with your generalizing.

  • Alix

    Nancy, please tell me what Bush says is illeagal that you disagree with and what non-observance you disagree with.

  • Mr Nalle, as ever your logic is flawed, at least in that you are consistent. As you already full well know, I don’t set the comments policy, I apply it.

    If you have any problem at all with that, you also know who to take it up with. In the meantime, I’ll thank you not to make such blatantly misleading statements. If you can…

  • Nancy

    Weeeellll, except for his recent comment that parents are the first & last line of responsibility, I disagree with his entire existence & everything he’s ever said or done, but that’s a little personal twitch of mine.

    Let’s see. Let’s start with the NSA spying, shall we? That should be enough to go on with; room here is limited.

  • JR

    Christopher Rose: Mr Nalle, as ever your logic is flawed, at least in that you are consistent.

    Please elucidate the flaw(s) in his logic.

  • For the Record…according to an excellent entry in Wikipedia this is the current FISA Court

    Colleen Kollar-Kotelly (presiding) District of Columbia May 19, 2002 May 18, 2009
    Dee Benson District of Utah May 2004 May 2011
    Robert C. Broomfield District of Arizona October 1, 2002 May 18, 2009
    James G. Carr Northern District of Ohio May 19, 2002 May 18, 2008
    John E. Conway District of New Mexico May 19, 2002 May 18, 2007
    Michael J. Davis District of Minnesota May 18, 1999 May 18, 2006
    Nathaniel M. Gorton District of Massachusetts May 18, 2001 May 18, 2008
    Claude M. Hilton Eastern District of Virginia May 18, 2001 May 18, 2007
    Malcolm Howard Eastern District of North Carolina 2005 2012
    George P. Kazen Southern District of Texas May 18, 2003 May 18, 2010
    John D. Bates District of Columbia February, 2006 May, 2013 ?

    those list the dates of appointment as well as when their terms expire…

    former FISA judges are….

    James Robertson District of Columbia May 19, 2002 May 18, 2006
    (resigned December 20, 2005)
    Harold A. Baker Central District of Illinois 2005
    Stanley S. Brotman District of New Jersey 2004
    William H. Stafford Jr. Northern District of Florida 2003
    Royce C. Lambeth District of Columbia 2002
    John F. Keenan Southern District of New York 2001

    note that ONLY 3 of the Judges form comment #83 are on the lists at all, and all 3 are on the FORMER judges list (which includes current Chief Justice Roberts)

    this is like hunting in a petting zoo

    just to drive another nail in

    cutting off someone’s head is not torture…it’s killing…

    the Persecution rests…


  • Nancy

    Torture would be forcing someone to watch the congressional channel on TV 24 hours a day.

  • ooops…correction of myself…a bit confused on my part…i switched CJ Roberts with Robertson…both served on the DC district court…and i am dyslexic

    hence my confusion…mea culpa

    but the lists are copied directly

    there ya go


  • Alix

    Gonzo, your judges are impressive. However, 1 of my judges is a co-author of the 1978 law. Since he is a co-author, that would give him more credability then the other current FISA judges.

    Still waiting for the torture of someone!

  • JR: The reasoning is flawed because whether I am a liberal or not has no relevance to the issue of comment editing.

  • ok..allow me to break it down..a secret court…sealed documents..only those actively on the Court see

    since NONE of the Judges you talked about are actively ON the Court, that’s a strike..and one of the judges you list has never been on the Court according to the source i cite…

    as for your “torture” rantings…try looking up “extrodinairy rendition” or the pics form Abu Grahib for starters…

    there is also the bit just out on Reuters concerning the charges brought against some troops for murder and the like ( to go with your beheading bit)

    a Quote form Reuters..
    *WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. military will charge seven Marines and a Navy corpsman with murder and other crimes in the April 26 killing of an Iraqi civilian in a village west of Baghdad, a defense official said on Wednesday.

    The charges include murder, kidnapping, conspiracy, making false official statements and larceny, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the charges have not yet been announced.

    The incident took place in the town of Hamdania in central Iraq, and is a separate case from the November 19 killing of 24 civilians in Haditha in which other Marines are suspected.

    Military criminal investigators examined whether the servicemen fatally shot a 52-year-old disabled Iraqi man in the face, then planted a rifle and a shovel next to his body to make it appear he was an insurgent placing a roadside bomb.*

    there’s more…but you can look it up for yourself

    now…if you want ot get into this, write an Article yourself and let’s stop derailing JP’s thread?

    my Apologies JP


  • JR

    Christopher Rose: The reasoning is flawed because whether I am a liberal or not has no relevance to the issue of comment editing.

    But the fact that you edit comments has relevance to the issue of whether or not you are a liberal, which is what Nalle was addressing. And it seems to me he got it right.

  • Alix

    Impressive! However, Due you recall Lt. Ilario Pantano who was charged with murder and villanized in the media and was found innocent after an autopsy. You may not remeber this since the media doesn’t think it needed front page coverage when found innocent, just when accused of murder. Accusations don’t make you guilty. Also you may want to look at the photograph the London Times used on 06/01/06 to describe a massacre in Iraq by USA, however, it was found out the photograph had nothing to do with the accusations they were accused of. Let a trial happen before you condem the soldiers of murder. Why is all of a sudden when more evidence comes out about Haditha that shows a different light on the situation, is the media not covering it so much.

  • Alix

    Once again Gonzo, He may not be currently on the court, but he wrote the law. I think he should know how to interpret hiw own writings.

  • “he wrote the Law” ???

    source please…

    as far as i am aware, the Law was written and passed by Congress in the 70’s in response to Nixon’s abuse of wiretapping

    was this person a member fo the committee who drew up the Law? on the congressional panel? added an amendment?

    you see, it’s Congress who writes the Law according to the Constitution…show your proof , please


  • Clavos


    What happened to “/ignore?” (#82)

    Not being argumentative, just thought that was a good idea.

  • and you are absolutely correct Clavos…

    i’m just weak…weak i tell you

    when i experience blatant silliness and factual innaccuracy…my fingers go nuts and start pecking away…

    but there is no 12 step program for Thinking

    and i thank Bog and JuJu for that


  • JR: “the fact that you edit comments has relevance to the issue of whether or not you are a liberal” -what on earth does this even mean?

  • I’d say the whole comment policy as enforced by YOU is flawed.

    The guy on this post that you’re agreeing with in your own comments calls someone who you disagree with on the same post a knuckle dragger and whatever else it was….oh yeah…dumbest fuckin retards to ever stumble across this site…and you let it slide!

    That’s a personal attack…as you put it all the time in your edits…stick to the topic! But I guess if you agree with the personal attack then it is on topic?

    Who edits you? Bunch of BULLSHIT! That’s what it is…edit away! Comments editor…worst idea you guys ever had on this site!

    later! much!

  • Andy..don’t get yer panties in a twist over this one

    i’ve been through the whole “free speech” thing on this site before, remember?

    that being said, realize that Christopher has a thankless and non-paying job with his editing, and critique that if you will (you did..and raised a very excellent point)…but without knowing what has gone on behind the scenes…it is difficult to pin the blame singularily

    however, allow me to add my puny Voice to the din…even Roger knew certain comments shoudl be edited, he did it deliberately to get edited and thus show that the Policy was enforced equally…

    the editor(s) do no Justice in not enforcing whatever Policy is chosen equally

    your mileage may vary


  • gonzo – I made the observation in comment #63 that the person making the comment expected it to be edited.

    Behind the scenes? You mean like…he may really be the dumbest fucking retard knuckle dragger to ever stumble across BC? If it were true…it’s besides the point isn’t it?

  • i understand Andy..and noted the same thing ..

    and by “behind the scenes” i mean the editors and owners of the site discussing the Incidents and people in Question among themselves to determine the policy case by case in some circumstances…

    that’s just an educated Guess on my part

    and yes, it IS besides the point…but JuJu knows i can get pretty harsh sometimes, but there is a certain line even i don’t cross

    who knows? i said clearly i stand with those who only want the Policy to be carried out equally, no matter who it is…and woudl much rather any censorship was kept to a minimum

    fair enuff?


  • I suppose I’ve crossed a few…I’ve been edited, so I must have…I didn’t like it…and if I had seen that others weren’t being edited when I was…I really wouldn’t like it…I’d think it sucks…sort of like I’m thinking now!

    I’d think someone was picking sides…it’s not the picking sides thing that bothers me…it’s that both sides don’t get an eraser.

    I suppose I can be done venting for the time being…

  • JustOneMan

    As a conservative I would like to offer my opinion and enter the debate on this issue…

    In my conervative opinion I [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] …in addition…[Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] futhermore [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited] [Edited]

    Thank you and my [Edited] bless America!

  • JustOneMan

    And may [Edited] Bless America!

  • Just to round this off, I too like comment editing kept to a minimum but there are some standards in the policy which call for a certain amount of interpretation.

    It may well seem desirable to treat everybody the same but in practice that gets complex. For example, if a registered writer for the site with a long track record with the site occasionally loses it and goes too far, a little understanding can surely be deployed.

    At the other extreme, if some anonymous commenter on their first visit adds a whole ton of off topic obscenity to a post, which happens quite frequently, you can be fairly sure it is going to be deleted.

    In between the two is a whole world of grey of course, like the people who only have one thing to say but like to say it as often as possible or the people with the well worked out and supported opinions that are in fact simple messages of hate in fancy clothes.

    Making the correct call every time probably calls for more wisdom than any one human can muster but please don’t blame a guy for trying.

    In the case that started this off, RogerMDillon deliberately made a point in response to JustOneMan’s much repeated childish name-calling. If they don’t seem qualitively different approaches to you guys then I’m obviously seeing nuance where there is none.

    “Politics” and “sides” don’t come in to it as BC is a politically neutral zone between the Klingon and Romulan empires, so to speak.

    On the other hand, JustOneMan does seem to have re-discovered how to be funny, as his #109 shows.

    Finally, let’s return to JP’s original issue, that of the challenge of defining Democratic core values.

    The differences between the two parties seem to have become so blurred as to make any real choice nigh on impossible, so it’s obviously a major challenge for the party not in power to differentiate themselves from their opponents.

    Without some new defining issues or at least a better way of dealing with the current ones, it looks very hard for the Democrats to defeat the Republicans.

    Ironically, the political situation is reversed in both my old homeland of England and here in Spain, where the opposition parties of the right are struggling to grapple effectively with the incumbents, despite their many and obvious problems.

  • RogerMDillon

    As the instigator and benficiary of the decision, I must admit I agree with Andy. Some of my intented comments should have been scrubbed a little cleaner since they were blantant attacks. I thought I had done enough without using guarabteed racial or homophobic slurs. I would point out, though, that entire comments by both JoM and myself were removed that you might not be aware of. I referred to a small vehicle for special kids.

    Andy, I got a huge kick out of “You mean like…he may really be the…” Very funny.

    Also, I have only seen rude, vile words cleaned up, never ideas, so comment #109 while amusing is wildly inaccurate.

  • If liberals(Democrats) believe in free speech, why was Pro-life Gov. Casey of PA not allowed to speak at the Democratic convention when Pro-choice Guiliani, Arnold, Pataki and others were allowed to speak at the Republican conventions?

    Good question. It’s obvious that on the surface the GOP does come across as the party with the big tent, doesn’t it? But underneath that pristene facade exists hateful, spiteful, malicious people who will stop at nothing to damage anyone who gets in their way. I refer you to the treatment Senator McCain received in South Carolina as a clear cut example. The Jumping Jesus Freaks come across as the Compassionate Conservative Christians but they are as evil as Osama bin Laden. The means to their respective ends may differ, but both Fundamentalist propaganda machines (Muslim & Christian) are dangerous to the very core of humanity.

  • JustOneMan

    Psycho Kain

    “Jumping Jesus Freaks come across as the Compassionate Conservative Christians but they are as evil as Osama bin Laden.”

    This is why the Dumbacratic Party will never be a party of ideas or ideals! This form of warped hate speech shows that this faction of the Dumbacrats TRULY believe that a lunatic mass murderer has the moral high ground over Americans practicing their freedom of religion and speach…

    Hey EDITOR — If Post 113 use the terms “Dirty J_w” or “Ni-gr” or “Spi-K”, would you have left those derogatory hate words in??? I think not! I guess its ok to use hate speach as long as you are bashing conservatives and/or Christians…

    Is it me or is there a definite pattern developing here..hey Arch are you out there!

  • Dude, don’t you realize that I am REPUBLICAN and not a Democrat. Anyone who reads my work knows damn well that I loathe both parties at this stage in my life but prefer to be associated with the Party of Lincoln. My comment was far from a flame at any particular poster but a blanket indictment of the Far Right. To that end, I have never made any secret of the fact that I abhor extremists on both sides of the aisle. So, before you jump all over me freaking out, be sure you get your ducks in a row.

  • JustOneMan

    Psycho Kain,

    How can you compare…

    “the treatment Senator McCain received in South Carolina as a clear cut example.”


    “hijacking 3 planes and killing 3000 innocent people”

    In addition, stop the facade– “I used to be a Republican, but,,,,” You have outed yourself as a schill for the Dumbacratic Party. These are straight from the talking points that the Dumbacrats pass out to kooks calling talk radio and post phoney blogs!

    he he LOLO “Anyone who reads my work” dude..get real we aree posting comments on a blog site not researching a cure for cancer…”my work? pleeeaase…

  • RogerMDillon


    if you and “Alix” are going to pretend to be two people, you shouldn’t both misspell an easy word like “speech”.

  • In addition, stop the facade– “I used to be a Republican, but,,,,” You have outed yourself as a schill for the Dumbacratic Party. These are straight from the talking points that the Dumbacrats pass out to kooks calling talk radio and post phoney blogs!

    Do you feel superior now? I hardly am a mouthpiece for the Democrat Party. This is what I love, get nasty with Fundies, I’m a Democrat. Get miserable with Liberal Fundies and I am a demagogue. That’s what’s wrong with this country. We’re so damn busy polarizing that we’ve forgotten how to communicate. And, from my point of view, the kooks calling talk radio seep out of the false Christian lairs across rural America.

    “the treatment Senator McCain received in South Carolina as a clear cut example.”


    “hijacking 3 planes and killing 3000 innocent people”

    Hmmm. Using the victims of 9/11 like Coulter says the widows do. How original. My question is something we will never know: How would President John McCain have handled 9/11 or would there have even been a 9/11? Now that McCain has sold out to the Bushites, he’s lost my support. Christie Todd Whitman looks better every day.

  • Only a Democrat would say that.

    (Runs away)

  • I liked you once, Suss.

  • You almost fooled me with that past tense, you know darn well you get a kick out of my hit and run trolling.

  • Indeed I do. I feel violated yet fulfilled.

  • I’m finding JoM to be increasingly tedious. Is he Anthony Grande by any chance? And Silas, IMO you’re the essence of a good republican unlike these far-right RINOs. Keep hope alive for the party of lincoln.


  • For Texas – For the Nation

    Nalle for Congress in ’08

    Can we start the BCers For Change Party?

  • JustOneMan

    Psycho Kain,

    How can you compare…

    “the treatment Senator McCain received in South Carolina as a clear cut example.”


    “hijacking 3 planes and killing 3000 innocent people”


  • JustOneMan

    he he LOLO “Anyone who reads my work” ….

    sorry Psycho Kain its just too funny!…”my work”…I heard their starting a fan club for you over at MoveOn.org…

    PS–I aint Alix..

  • JOM, please refer to my comment above. The treatment Senator McCain received was reprehensible. It was gutter politics at its lowest Rovian form. Morally, I see no difference between the slaughter of 3,000 innocents in God’s name vs. the destruction of a good man’s reputation for God’s cause. You fail to see that the Ultra Right practices intellectual guerilla warfare vs. the old violence method. Different means. Same diabolical end.

  • JustOneMan

    READ THESE WORDS REAL SLOW…you still dont see the difference between “freedon of speach” and “mass murder”

    “I see no difference between the slaughter of 3,000 innocents in God’s name vs. the destruction of a good man’s reputation for God’s cause.”

    “That’s it Mister! You just lost your brain privileges!” Plankton – Sponge Bob Square Pants

  • Well, you’ve exposed your little self. Freedom of speech? Is that how you view the wholesale slaughter of John McCain’s reputation by that thug Rove and the Far Right? When you look at the number of people slaughtered over the last 2,000 years in the name of two of Abraham’s religions, those 3,000 people are but a drop in the bucket. Let’s be real here. Thanks to mass media the tragedy of 9/11 has been made larger than life. Let’s put it all into context and look at the big picture.

  • RogerMDillon

    “I’m finding JoM to be increasingly tedious.”

    I’m selling that on a t-shirt at my CafePress store, Dave. Gonzo seemed to think he was Al, but Al never seemed to be one to hide. JoM claimed to be from NJ, which I believe is where AG’s family is supposed to be from, so there might be a connection. I’m still leaning towards Alix because it seems quite a coincidence that two new people with similar views consistently spell “speech” wrong.

    And to get this back towards politics I pose this question, does anyone deserve a freedom they can’t spell correctly?

  • Roger sez…
    *And to get this back towards politics I pose this question, does anyone deserve a freedom they can’t spell correctly?*

    yes Roger…they do

    even if they can’t spell it, even if they don’t understand what it means, even if they don’t know what it is or can’t say it or hear it or you don’t agree with it or like it or know about it

    they do




  • Gonzo only says that because he can’t capitalize and he knows that after they come for the bad spellers they’ll come for the bad punctuators.


  • RogerMDillon

    Don’t tell me I have to start using a 😉 or jk around here. Gonzo, I am surprised that you couldn’t see that I was being completely facetious. Of course, you don’t know all my positions on issues, but surely, and I promise to stop calling you “Shirley,” you didn’t think I was serious. You are spending to much time in front of your montior, son, and not enough time persuing pleasures that are closer to the heart. Take a week off. It will do you good.

  • Hey Silas, I’d watch out for CTW…my pop up in NJ said she was a waste up there…but then again…I can’t think of a pol that my father would speak nicely about anyway…

  • JP

    Gonzo, I’m just watching the entertainment now! 😉 No worry about my little thread.

  • bah..they will come for me and my weird Capitalization, creative punctuation and fucking abysmal spelling…

    but they won’t catch me…

    i’m really…the gingerbread Man!



    and Roger..here’s yer leg back, it seems to have come off in my hand…



  • JustOneMan

    Silas Insane….

    Based upon your “logic”????

    The Swift Boating of Kerry was equal to the 6 million Jews that were killed in the Holacaust”

    Gee….you liberals are devoid of any sense..

    keep thrownin stones…you and your buddies have a nice circle jerk on each other just clean up the mess when you done…

  • Karen

    What the hell is Excelsior? Are you a child or a grown man?

  • It’s my belief that Excelsior is the name of his mule. Think of it like riding off into the sunset. That’s him calling his faithful steed.

  • Clavos

    Does he tilt at windmills, too?

  • Sancho gets the mule…my horse may be old, but he hates windmills as much as i do


  • Is this some kind of reference to Don Quixote?

  • dingdingdingding!

    Silas get’s the cookie for getting the Cervantes sub-ref

    here ya go…

    ————————-> @

    and some coffee

    ———————–> c|_|



  • What the hell is Excelsior?

    It’s a packing material made from wood shavings. It’s used to stuff the most high quality straw men.


  • Another Liberal

    nice daisy chain boysssssssss…whos turn is it to teabag gonzo…

  • yer confused..i’m the str8 one around here

    but if ya really need someone to piss in yer mouth, i know some folks who like that kinda thing…they are relatively inexpensive as well…

    but ya do look yummy in the gimp suit


  • Another Liberal


    Isnt that a code word for a “cuckold”?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    I’ve been reading through the mess this comment section has become. While I rarely agree with you, I could see my Bolshevik instincts coming out were I comments editor.

    [Ruvy bows with respect – hand over fist]

    To quote Subliminál “Shir haSticker” – the Sticker Song

    Káma ró’a
    Efshár livló’a?
    Ábba! TiraHém!
    Ábba! TiraHém!

    How much evil is it possible to swallow?
    Father! Have mercy! Father! Have mercy!

  • Stu In Staten Island

    Chris..I agree with Ruvy..I too would like to add a song praising all of the intellectuals posting on this article

    La cucaracha, la cucaracha
    Ya no puede caminar
    Porque no tiene, porque le falta
    Marijuana que fumar.

  • JustOneMan


    Whats your opion on Silas applying moral equivalecy to –

    ” no difference between the slaughter of 3,000 innocents in God’s name vs. the destruction of a good man’s reputation for God’s cause.” and The Swift Boating of Kerry was equal to the 6 million Jews that were killed in the Holacaust.


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    It’s all just rhetoric to me. The people are dead; the damage is done to McCain’s career, etc. etc.

    Silas is a Republican. Heck, once many years ago, I was a Republican. When I was 14, I got my dad, z”l to vote for John Lindsay. Heh, I saw just what kind of man I had gotten my dad to vote for when the inaugural victory dinner I was supposed to attend was cancelled due to transit strike, and Lindsay went on TV proclaiming that “I am the mayor” While Nelson Rockefeller quietly but effectively castrated the guy in public.

    Reality. Reality was the cancellation of that victory dinner.


    The prime minister wants to cut Jerusalem apart and if the bum gets his way, the border will be a half kilometer from where I’m sitting and our lovely Arab cousins will be sending Qassams flying into south Jerusalem. That, unfortunately, is not rhetoric. I wish it were.

  • JustOneMan

    Ruv..the hoax is that Silas PRETENDS to be some sort of “enlightend Repblican” that is where the fraud is….he is supposedly one of those who has seen the light…

    “He is nothing but a fake, phoney, fraud” Bob Grant WOR NYC

  • JustOneMan

    Thanks Ruv..the hoax is that Silas PRETENDS to be some sort of “enlightend Repblican” that is where the fraud is….he is supposedly one of those who has seen the light…

    “He is nothing but a fake, phoney, fraud” Bob Grant WOR NYC

  • Frazier

    I think one positive thing that the democrats can learn from the Rebublicans is that people like simplicity and a majority of voters don’t want to be bogged down with homework to decide on who to vote for. Outlining the core values and making sure that these are the basic messages that are replayed over and over accross the entire party will hopefully make the principles on which the democrats stand become clear in the public eye. I don’t mean to say that we should dumb down the message but make it easier to digest. People already have enough to worry about. Stay positive and respond intelligently and decisively when attacked. John Kerry made the unfortunate mistake of letting the Swift Boat ads go too long without a clear and decisive rebutal and it cost him the election. GO DEMOCRATS!

  • JP

    Frazier, my point exactly. Thanks!

  • lordholly

    Perhaps these should be the core values of the party.

    Fundamental Beliefs
    Life: A person’s right to life can’t be violated except if your life or the lives of others is threatened.

    Liberty: This includes personal freedom, political freedom, and economic freedom. This is the freedom for people to gather in groups. They have their own beliefs, ideas and opinions. People also have the right to express their opinions in public.

    Personal Freedom – the right to think and act without government control.
    Political Freedom – the right to participate in political process.
    Economic Freedom – the right to buy, sell and trade private property and the right to employment without the government interfering.
    The Pursuit of Happiness: As long as you don’t interfere with others you have the right to seek happiness in your own way.

    Common Good: Working together for the welfare of the community or the benefit of all.

    Justice: All people should be treated fairly in both the benefits and the obligations of society. No individual or group should be favored over another person or group.

    Equality: Everyone has the right to Political, Legal, Social and Economic Equality. Everyone has the right to the same treatment regardless of race, sex, religion, heritage, or economic status.

    Diversity: The differences in culture, dress, language, heritage and religion are not just tolerated, but celebrated as a strength.

    Truth: They should expect and demand that the government not lie to them and the government should disclose information to the people. The government and its people should not lie.

    Popular Sovereignty: The power of the government comes from the people. The people are the ultimate authority over the government.

    Patriotism: The people or citizens show a love and devotion for their country and the values. They can show this by words or by actions.

    Constitutional Principles
    Rule of Law: Both the people and the government must obey all laws.

    Separation of Powers: The executive, legislative and judicial branches of the government should be separate institutions so no one branch has all of the power.

    Representative Government: People have the right to elect others to represent them in the government.

    Checks and Balances: The powers of the three branches of government, executive, legislative and judicial, should be balanced. No one branch should be dominate. Each branch should have powers to check the actions of the other branches.

    Individual Rights: Each individual has the fundamental right to life, liberty, economic freedom and the pursuit of happiness. These rights are outlined in the Bill of Rights and the government should protect these rights and not place undo restrictions upon them.

    Freedom of Religion: The right to practice any or no religion without persecution by the government.

    Federalism: The states and the federal government share power as outlined by the Constitution.

    Civilian Control of the Military: The people control the military to preserve democracy.

    I got them from this site.


  • Don Mitchel

    American core values and the economic globalization being pursued by our country, as a value are in direct contrast.
    Our country is an experiment in cultural Globalization that currently is not providing enough jobs for its own people. Currently there would be very little world economic globalization without China. Sadly it seems then, that world economic globalization is dependent on a country that controls the size of the middle class work force, the have and have nots, to manipulate their currency valuation in the world, for the benefit of a privileged few, in direct contrast to what our core values are suppose to be. Unfortunately this loss of peoples freedom is now happening to the American Dream as a results of two decades of politicians interlacing our free market democratic values and our core values with the economy of a communist country through currency valuation, treaties and debt. This loss of our ability to be a free nation can not be illustrated more, than by our country not being able to create national laws to protect our environment from polluted discharges and the carbon footprint of foreign ships bringing foreign goods to our country while Americans out of work, despite the House of Representatives, the largest elected legislative voice of the people voting 395-7 for this to happen. This administration knows that a report for congress prepared in Dec.2009 states this would cause the cost of foreign imports to rise, and would hurt the plan for our country to recover on the coat tails and ability of a communist countries to produce consumer goods for our largest employers. Sadly if we do not address this piper now we are head to a nation of second class.