Do you remember hearing “You throw like a girl” during your childhood?
Today is a day to blog against sexism, but I admit I am getting to it a little bit late since I just put my daughter to bed after a long day. Lisa McKay encouraged me to write on this subject, so this is my shot at acknowledging this worthwhile effort.…
Article comments
26 - Victor Lana
Yes, Sister Ray, you're right that female students have the opportunity to play sports in school: on girls' teams. I'd like to see girls be able to try out and make the male teams if they're good enough. Give them the option. If they can strike out the boys, hit as many baskets, score as many touchdowns, or hit as many homeruns, why shouldn't they be on the team?
Conversely, boys shouldn't be ostracized or intimidated to explore areas that are not traditonally male. Wouldn't we all be happier if we could do what we want to do and not what society says we should do?
27 - MCH
Re Victor's #24;
Yes, wouldn't that be fun to watch...but it would never happen, being against the code of "Words speak louder than action"...
28 - DJRadiohead
Why does a girl need to try out for a boys' team if there is a girls' team? If the goal is opportunity to play, in that scenario she has one. Why does she need to play on the boys' team at all?
If there is no girls' team (for example, many schools do not have girls' football teams) I can see making the case girls should be allowed to compete for an opportunity to play.
29 - TA Dodger
I understand what you're trying to say with this article, but I think you could have picked a better example of using some varient of "woman" as an insult.
How about one man calling another man a "bitch" or a "pussy" if he is perceived as weak or unmasculine? Notice that women are never insulted with terms that mean "man."
TA Dodger
a girl who can't throw
30 - Al Barger
Now Victor, I like you and all, but you're just so completely blindered by your frankly nonsensical egalitarian ideology that you're just being SILLY. Yeah, a daughter of Muhammed Ali could absolutely put the hurt on ME, but even she- perhaps the top female fighter on the planet- probably wouldn't last a round in the ring with ANY professional level male.
I appreciate not wanting to hold women back artificially by telling them they can't do things that they can- but it's wrong about a dozen different directions to insist that people pretend that reality doesn't exist, and to pretend that men and women are the same. They are not, and they have in some ways significantly different aptitudes, abilities and interests as a matter of genetics. That's the facts, Jack.
People sometimes use the phrase "you throw like a girl" because girls by and large clearly and obviously cannot throw as well as boys. It's just foolish to pretend otherwise. No woman in the land is physically capable of actually competing in equal competition at the professional level of baseball, or such would be my estimation of reality. I would be highly impressed if a woman came along who could prove me wrong, and I would be happy to eat my words.
And I find it difficult to believe that you honestly think that my view of women is in any way similar to wicked Muslims oppressing women. If there's anyone oppressing women through their physical abilities, it's God who made them weaker and more physically vulnerable. Wasn't my idea.
I'm not trying to promote some strictly defined idea of what is properly "masculine" and "feminine," but your PC re-definition is, frankly, ridiculous and just wrong. You can say you define a dog as something that purrs and says meow, but it's still a pussy.
31 - Dan
"Will Steinbrenner hire her or not?"
Of course he would. She probably wouldn't need such a stellar performance. If she could get a 100mph fast one across the plate, she would probably get hired just out of sheer novelty. If Steinbrenner was too stupid to take advantage of her talents, other managers would jump at the chance.
It's like tilting at sexist windmills to think otherwise.
32 - Al Barger
The real sexism here from my viewpoint is the apparent idea of Victor's that little girls are so fragile that a little phrase like "throws like a girl" would ruin their competitive ability. If there's a girl who does NOT throw like a girl, then I'd expect her to take such comments as a challenge. Throw like a girl? I'll show you!
33 - Victor Lana
Al, are you familiar with the line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" from Hamlet? Well, oddly enough, I think it applies to your commentary.
Equity is equity: it has no race, religion, or gender.
34 - Al Barger
No Victor, I don't see how that Hamlet quote in any way applies to me. However, Hamlet was the source of my domain name, and that quote might apply to your little egalitarian worldview "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
What's this "equity" crap? There's one thing of striving to have equality under the law, but that doesn't mean that men and women are equal in nature. It doesn't mean they have equal aptitudes, nor necessarily the same interests.
And again, it's pretty insulting to womankind to act like the least little mundane passing implicit acknowledgement of such things ie throwing like a girl is enough to hold them back. YOU are the one here treating them like the weaker sex.
Whereas on the other hand, I would be a big advocate in particular of encouraging independence and strength for all. If'n y'all get to Indiana, I'd be happy to get together with you and start teaching your girl how to shoot a gun. Packing a pistol in her purse- and having the training and confidence to be able to handle it- would be a lot more valuable to her than throwing a damned baseball in the first place.
I'm just saying that my kind of womenfolk aren't meek little wimps who will be easily discouraged. Whereas on the basis of articles like this, I would more expect a daughter raised by you to give up and sit there all hurt cause some mean old guy said that girls can't do this or that.
Hopefully your girl is made of tougher stuff than that, and won't allow herself to held back by her loving Daddy's nonetheless foolish lefty ideological baggage.
35 - Victor Lana
Al, your comments (#34) prove my argument in comments (#33): you're protesting way too much.
Of course, you're entitled to your POV as much as anyone is. Peace and happiness, man!
36 - Al Barger
It's all good, Brother Victor. However, I'd characterize YOUR column and comments as more the "protest" here. I'd call my comment 34 more clarification, but I think we've both pretty well explained our positions by this point.
37 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I dunno, Victor, I gotta side with Mr. Barger here. I remember being on patrol at French Hill in the northern end of town, me and my carbine and blue cop's uniform. This little thing from the Border Patrol (in khaki), with her M16 slung over her back, started making conversation with me. And then before continuing on her way to her post she slapped me on the back.
Man! That hurt like a bitch!! I didn't dare show any pain, and just smiled at her, but that little thing was nobody to mess with.
Could she throw a baseball 100 mph? Who gives a crap? Let's just say I wouldn't want to have to have a violent argument with her.
There ain't nothing wrong with wanting the sky as the limit for your daughter. And there is nothing right with discriminating against women in pay or status on a given job or in opportunities in the job market, etc. Maybe one day your daughter will be floating around up there in a spaceship while you're kvelling with pride. But she is a girl, and she has functions you don't.
If you really want to insult a woman, tell her she gives birth like a guy.
38 - Victor Lana
Ruvy, your line "If you really want to insult a woman, tell her she gives birth like a guy" is about one of the best I've read that sums up the male-female situation. Thanks!
39 - Al Barger
Oh Ruvy- you're breaking my heart. How could you be so cruel? I wanted to give birth to a child, and now you're telling me that I couldn't do it as well as a woman. Look, it's not my fault that I'm a man. Plus, men and women should be equal. I do NOT appreciate you discouraging me like this. Why are you such a sexist?
40 - TA Dodger
well, I support your right to have babies
41 - Al Barger
Thank you for your support, TA. In response to your comment #29, I might still confess to a lack of proper automatic outrage at all uses of the terms "bitch" or "pussy." Depends a lot on how they're used. Note for starters that never would it be a perjorative to call a woman a "pussy." That seems to be only an insult as applied to a man. It's not an insult in the same way to say that a woman has one- they're SUPPOSED to.
Also, I fear that I risk my credentials as a gentleman in the necessary service of properly praising the wondrous skills of Sinead O'Connor, who is as good a singer as there is.
But that doesn't properly pay tribute to her skillz, so I find myself saying stuff like that Sinead O'Connor is the singingest bitch walking the Earth.
To whom might I plead for forgiveness for this sin against womankind and all of humanity?
42 - Victor Plenty
I too support Al's right to have babies, but I bet he won't want us to call him Loretta.
43 - Al Barger
Actually Victor, if I could have a baby, Loretta would be just fine- or you could call me "June" or "Dolly." Just don't call me Natalie Maines.
44 - Natalie Bennett
Great post! And it is very telling that "girl" remains (in many arenas) still a term of abuse.
But men won't ultimately be able to keep women out of "male" sports. How can you justify the restrictions on an individual's earning capacity and opportunities just because of gender discrimination?
And imagine the first woman to play football (soccer) for Manchester United. British football clubs have for some years been chasing players from East Asia because of their potential marketing power. Just imagine the marketing power of that woman.
The clubs, and equal opportunity laws, will make it happen.
45 - Al Barger
Problem is Natalie, women and men are not in fact equal. "Equal opportunity" under the LAW we can work on, but for women to be GOOD enough to play professional soccer or football they would have to not be chicks.
Your problem isn't the law, nor mean ol' Al: it's GOD. If you can get the courts to apply their demands for equal opportunity to the deity, then women might start qualifying as firemen and football players.
Now, I can imagine some of your more pinko courts presuming to make such a presumption of jurisdiction. Perhaps the famous San Francisco 9th District Court of Appeals would make rulings demanding that God make men and women equal, ordering a re-design offering women equal physical strength to men- and giving me the ability to have a baby.
The obvious problem, of course: How are they going to enforce their edict?
46 - TA Dodger
Re: #41
Al, I followed this link you included in your first response to this post, and I think calling Sinead O'Connor the "singingest bitch walking the earth" is probably the least of your problems. I'd be more concerned with the fact that you refer to women who get abortions as "whores" and gay men you don't like as "fags."
To be honest, I'm not sure you're too concerned with your credentials as a gentleman.
Also it would be pejorative to refer to a woman as a "pussy" just like it would be pejorative for me to call you a dick.
47 - Victor Lana
TA, I'm sitting on the sidelines enjoying the comments, but I had to give you the award (nothing substantial but the recognition) for best comment for this post. Thanks!
48 - Al Barger
TA, you have absolutely no just cause for being offended (#46). You carefully take the two words "whore" and "fag" out of context to pump them up. You're carefully not getting the point of what I'm writing.
It obviously does not apply to every every woman who gets an abortion (and I emphasize that I am pro-choice). Nonetheless there are irresponsible whores, dumb slut titty dancers getting multiple abortions. I might have to tolerate this, but it is totally appropriate to express moral disapproval of such behavior.
That is certainly NOT a sign of prejudice or generalized disdain for womankind, and it strikes me as less than honest to try to paint it as such. I was making a pretty clear distinction there, and with the Act Up group, and I find it hard to believe you read the story and didn't get that.
"Bad form" as Dustin Hoffman's Captain Hook would say.
49 - Scott Butki
Victor - Excellent piece. And this is exactly the type of discussion I aspire to have when I start teaching. What grade do you
teach? It is interesting to watch those reactions.
I recently did some student teaching in a primary grade. As part of a lesson democracy I asked the students who wanted to
vote on something to stand. Everyone stood. Then I told the girls to sit down.
I asked, "Ok, how does that make you feel, the idea that you can't vote because you're a girl?"
I explained about women's belated right to vote and had them talk and write on the question: Should girls be allowed to vote?
I Was pleased they - even the boys - not only said yes but some said the girls are nicer and smarter and might make better
presidents.
Now if only they would hold on to those positions as they get older....
50 - Victor Lana
You're going to be a great teacher, Scott (judging from your little experiement). I've taught all levels (4th grade to 12th grade and most recently at the college level) and there is so much you can do with this kind of topic.
Here is another little experiment you might enjoy. It goes like this:
Tell the class they're going to choose a class president. Have everyone write down on a piece of paper the name of a person he or she wants to nominate. You collect the papers and go through them, discarding this one and that while saying, "No, this one is out. This one too."
Finally, when the class is going crazy about why some were disqualified, you say, "Those people can't run for president because they have blue eyes." Wait for the reaction. You'll love it!
51 - Scott Butki
Thanks, Victor.
Yes, I did an experiment like that too to teach a class about discrimination.
I recreated the classic experiment where some are
given something special while others are not.
Then as some are outraged and others feel guilty I ask all of them to try to express what they are feeling.
Second grade, fourth grade and sixth grade students - each in separate experiments by me - all had smart things to say.
The only problem.. it's so well known that in each case one student would say, "Oh you doing the thing where some get something and the others dont but later we all get it?"
Um, you be quiet.
:O)
52 - Scott Butki
Dang did I kill the conversation?
53 - Victor Lana
No, Scott, it's just I don't stay on top of the posts after a time. You're always going to have one or more students who thinks he/she knows what's happening. Throw a monkey in the wrench and change the dynamics somehow. It will still work if you keep it fresh.
Example: a science teacher I know starts off one class a year by showing the students three test tubes filled with liquid (one orange, one blue, and one yellow).
He tells them that the orange and blue are chemical solutions and the yellow is a urine sample. Before the class is over, he drinks the urine sample. After all the screaming and yelling, he reveals it was only lemonade. The aim is to think about observation and experimentation (and have some fun too).
54 - Scott Butki
Oh my god, that is too funny!
55 - Scott Butki
I want to try to revive this one since it was such a great piece.
56 - atalaya
If you'll excuse me, I'd just like to submit two thoughts. One, I am in the army and there is a female in my squad who is quite good at doing physical training. she runs her two miles faster than most men I know and she does more pushups, however(!) despite all this she cannot manage the simplest of carries for wounded comrades. The weakest male in my squad can do every lift no problem and although they may not be able to run as fast or do as many pushups, I know who I would want with me if I were wounded.
Last: As a student of karate and a member of the army I've met my share of tough people. However, the single toughest was a woman teaching Goju Ryu karate. This woman could flatten you with a glance and was truly dedicated to her art. Out of all the people I might end up fighting, she might be the last I would ever try to take on.
57 - shasha
that was so ngood