(The following is a spirited discussion between myself - The Skeptic - and a Christian preacher.)
SKEPTIC: I came across this video on Tangle (formerly GodTube), a Christian video sharing site that is normally pretty conservative in its viewpoint. However, in this particular video, a Christian experiences an amazing epiphany after a gay business friend asks him, "Why do you Christians hate us so much?" As he ponders the question, he comes to realize that it's true that "Christians have treated gay people with distain and with hate." He goes on to reflect that "when someone doesn't agree with my Christian worldview, I can become unloving." And not once did he bring up the nonsensical "Love the sinner, hate the sin," which is the standard Christian canard used to explain their attitude toward gay people.
The problem with that, of course, is that by labeling gay people as "sinners," you are judging them and setting yourself up as morally superior to them. And that sort of judgment can lead to all sorts of bigotry and discrimination against gays. In any event, my hat is off to this man for his ability to come to grips with the true nature of his feelings and his apparent willingness to try to change them.
PREACHER: I can agree with the guy in the video. I am also very ashamed of the "Christians" who call gay people bad names, pick on them, and go around with placards and bumper stickers that say, "God Hates Fags." I believe they are reacting in fear to how the gay community might mess up our world for future generations and call down God's judgment. Unfortunately, their foolish actions and words are just causing more alienation, and not really helping the problem they are trying to address. (You may notice that I don't include myself with them. I am not aware that I have ever called a gay person names, picked on them or said that God hates them. I would never want to.) It is very unfortunate that Christians who are reaching out to gay people in love and helping them in many practical ways (I personally know of many who do) don't get very much publicity.
The guy in the video did say that you should stand up for what you believe. He was confessing his and many Christians' unloving actions, words, and attitudes towards the gay community. But he wasn't saying that homosexual acts and gay marriage were good things. Although he didn't use the words, I believe he would agree with "Love the sinner, hate the sin." That phrase is only nonsensical to those who find their identity only in what they think, feel, and do. I believe one's identity is much more than just those aspects. (Though maybe, as an atheist, that is all you have to go on.)
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Annon
When gays think that Christians hate them it reminds me of a four year old who thinks
his mother hates him because she won't let him eat just candy for supper.
2 - Silas Kain
Interesting. There are millions of gay Christians around the globe so a wholesale indictment of the entire belief system really isn't fair. Many "Christians" hate gays out of fear. Others out of a blind acceptance of that which they were taught. Harvey Milk believed that if gays were more forthright about themselves and put their own faces on the "identity" it would go a long way in furthering the cause. I agree.
There's a great scene in The Opposite of Sex where a young gay kid is trying to blackmail a gay teacher for personal gain. The teacher grabs the kid's pierced nipple (through his shirt) and says:
"Listen to me, you little grunge faggot. I survived my family, my schoolyard, every Republican, every other Democrat, Anita Bryant, the Pope, the fucking Christian Coalition, not to mention a real son of a bitch of a virus, in case you haven't noticed. In all that time since Paul Lynde and Truman Capote were the only fairies in America, I've been busting my ass so that you'd be able to do what you wanted with yours! So I don't just want your obedience right now - which I do want and plenty of it - but I want your fucking gratitude, right fucking now, or you're going to be looking down a long road at your nipple in the dirt! Do you hear what I'm saying?"
That about sums it up. The pioneers have led the way and it's time for this new generation of LGBT people to take it to the next level. Forty years from now they'll look back with pride on all that was accomplished and the perception of intolerance while remaining in certain pockets will be a thing of the past.
3 - Doug DeLong
Silas: There are millions of gay Christians around the globe so a wholesale indictment of the entire belief system really isn't fair.
Point taken. There are those Christians on the left side of the spectrum (the ones who dare to ordain gay Bishops, for example) who exhibit real tolerance. But I think for most mainstream American Christians (aka "born-agains"), the term "gay Christian" is an oxymoron.
4 - Silas Kain
Perhaps, Doug. When I was in my late 20's I read Troy Perry's The Lord is My Shepherd and He Knows I am Gay. At the time it had little effect on me because I wasn't ready to reconcile my beliefs and personal values. I reread this book four years ago and it made complete sense. Rev. Perry is a devout Christian and his Metropolitan Community Church movement has been well received in so many communities. I spent some time with M.C.C. in my personal vision quest but it just wasn't the right fit.
We have to remember that the LGBT community hasn't helped the cause either. The flamboyance of many "out loud" gays tend to shadow the mainstream gays who go about living their lives in quiet harmony with none of the negatives one would expect. I know plenty of LGBT couples who have been together for 25+ years and they're active members in their communities, have wide circles of friends and are well respected even by the most "Christian" of Christians.
It's the closeted gays who hurt the community more than the Baptists. When gays live in fear of reprisals, family shunning and blackmail what results is irrational thought and behavior. The self loathing and self doubt hurt more than anything else. BY living in the shadows and hating one's self, it gives license to the anti-gay movement to continue. Like in the movie Network, it's time for LGBT land to collectively scream I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more!
5 - Ruvy
You know, Jews tend to be on the tolerant side when it comes to homosexual behavior - there are a variety of reasons for this, but if you are wondering why I'm commenting on this, I remind you that it is our Torah, that lays out moral behavior for the Children of Israel in Leviticus, Cap. 18-19. It lays out the penalties for breaking that code in Leviticus, Cap. 20, and declares that those convicted of homosexual behavior shall be put to death. But that's where you all stop! Not only do you fail to read all of Leviticus 18-19 to understand the meaning of that chapter, you fail to look at the laws of evidence in the Torah.
In Deuteronomy, Cap. 17, there is the key point that makes private homosexual behavior off-limits to the courts - even among us Children of Israel. By the testimony of two witnesses or three witnesses shall the condemned be put to death; he shall not be put to death by the testimony of a single witness. [Deuteronomy 17:6]
Nowhere do I see any of this mentioned in the article. Nowhere do I see the implications of these verses when taken together brought forth.
First, you Christians arrogate to yourselves our code of holiness, pretending that you even have the right to (the Torah is not for you, it is for the Children of Israel), and second of all, you misinterpret it all miserably.
It's pathetic.
Nevertheless, there is a cogent comment on sexuality in this article, and it is on page 5:
From your comments, it seems to me that you place great value in sexual fulfillment. You seem to make it the apex of life, as if it were the ultimate good. I would even go so far to say that you have made it your "god." I suppose that anyone who makes sex their "god" would want to have that completely fulfilled. And, that would include being able to satisfy those irrational feelings that we call sexual orientation. Your sexuality then becomes your primary identity. Instead of being something you do, it becomes you.
That drives the point home with a hammer. All of us are far more than the hormones coursing through our bodies, or that which we lust after. When we forget that, we demean ourselves.
6 - Annon
I believe that both Jews and Christians believe in a God who sees and knows all, including our most private acts and thoughts. That being the case, whether the act is seen by human witnesses or not has nothing to do with whether our Creator approves of it or not.
7 - Carole McDonnell
I'm a Bible believer pretty orthodox and I don't hate gay people. One can believe something is wrong and not hate people. Lots of gay folks are in orthodox Christian churches. They're choir-directors, or just folks in the churches and no one bothers them. On a day to day level People generally do not care about people's business in churches. It's only in the realm of politics and the media that hatred pops up.
8 - Doug DeLong
Carole, Thanks for your comments. Do you believe gay people should have the right to be married?
9 - handyguy
Perhaps a more meaningful way to phrase the title question would be:
"Why do politically-minded conservative Christians feel the need to single out gays for hostility?"
And "Why insist on voicing this hostility so loudly, so publicly, and with so little regard for facts?"
As for individual Christians: if this shoe fits, own up to it.
In many cases, gays are just a convenient political football, a focal point around which conservatives can try to flex their political clout. It's opportunistic bigotry rather than heartfelt bigotry, but no less repugnant for that.
Fortunately, changing public attitudes have already begun to make this a losing battle for conservatives: Most Americans prefer to live and let live.
And while gay marriage is still a step further than many moderate heterosexuals are willing to go, a majority of Americans now accept the principle of civil unions.
It's only a matter of time.
10 - Silas Kain
...whether the act is seen by human witnesses or not has nothing to do with whether our Creator approves of it or not.
Doesn't that spit in the face of the Divine directive of humanity's free will? Is it a matter of God or man's approval?
They're choir-directors, or just folks in the churches and no one bothers them. On a day to day level People generally do not care about people's business in churches. It's only in the realm of politics and the media that hatred pops up.
Amen to that! Without the choir directors the joyful noise unto the Lord would not be as sweet.
11 - Ruvy
a God who sees and knows all, including our most private acts and thoughts. That being the case, whether the act is seen by human witnesses or not has nothing to do with whether our Creator approves of it or not.
All this rather misses the point. What the Divine Court does in judging our actions is very different from what a human court does. Leviticus 18-20, combined with Deuteronomy 17:6 describes a human court judging the Children of Israel.
And that is the point.
If we attempt to divine what Lev. 18:22 is getting at, and realize that it is public (or witnessed) homosexual behavior that is condemned as an abomination, we then need to look at where we would have found this behavior in Canaan, the Land that was holy and to be kept so by the behavior of the Children of Israel (it wasn't, but that is not quite the issue here).
Witnessed homosexual relations were generally found in pagan temples where temple prostitutes "serviced" worshipers. And you got any flavor "service" you wanted, so long as you made the necessary sacrifice, or paid the requisite fee.
James Michener illustrated this concept rather well in early chapters of his book The Source about Israel's secrets stripped bare in an archaeological dig in the Galilee. Though a work of fiction (written from a moderate Catholic POV), The Source was based on archaeological studies of practices at Canaanite temples.
12 - Ruvy
To make a long story short, the crux of most of the moral code in Leviticus 18 is G-d saying to the Children of Israel, "don't do what the Canaanites do, for they have polluted the Land and I Am kicking them out - and if you do what they do, I'll kick you out too!"
13 - Silas Kain
Thanks for your contributions to this discussion, Ruvy, they've been insightful.
14 - Jet Gardner
"The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals...
...they just need more supervision."
15 - Jet Gardner
Leviticus 18-20, combined with Deuteronomy 17:6 have a much more simplistic explanation with the perfect example in today's American.
Hispanics will soon become the majority.
Back in biblical times the Israelites were a severe minority and thus easy to conquer. Laws were set up meant to make sure that Jews were fruitful and multiplied-safety in numbers, thus biblical admonishions on ANYTHING either hetero or homo that didn't produce children.
Rather than recognize this biblical fact, those who choose to hate use it as an excuse. Ignoring how many of the teachings of the bible are dated and/or outdated such as animal sacrifice during religious ceremonies and multiple wives.
16 - Silas Kain
I'll keep that in mind when I sacrifice my cat tonight. She's in heat and I'm ready to strangle her. After one wife, I can't fathom how ANY man would want more at once. Now a woman with multiple husbands -- THAT I can see. After all a hard man is good to find and it's rare these days without Viagra.
17 - Jet Gardner
Silas you'd love Eddie Izzard's new DVD where he illustrates the dopler effect by having firemen throw cats out the window of their firetruck instead of a faulty siren.
I however love my cat Mischief, and wouldn't do such things
18 - Silas Kain
Sophie, my cat, is named after the late great Sophie Tucker. And let me tell you she lives up to the last of the Red Hot Mama's reputation. I want her to have one little before she is spayed and I have 7 potential homes for the kittens so it's all good. I will keep one of them, pof course, and I will name it Bette if it's a girl or Max.
I just love firefighters, Jet. I've made a few of them howl like a siren in my time.
19 - Jet Gardner
Any gay man will tell you there's no such thing as an ugly fireman. I used to deliver pizzas to several firestations and to get to their lunch room you had to go through their bunk room...
...gay heaven
As for Sophie Tucker, one of my favorite stories is when Sophie's best friend comes up their fence as asks
"Soph, how is it that you never get caught in the rain when you're hanging up your laundry like the rest of us."
Sophie replies, "That's a perfectly simple proposition; When I wake up in the morning I roll over and look at my boyfriend Ernie's crotch.
If it laying on the right it's going to rain, if it's laying on the left I know it's going to be a sunny day"
After a moment of pondering the friend asks, "But Soph, what if it's standing straight up in middle?"
and she replies, "Who the hell wants to do laundry on a day like that anyway?"
20 - Silas Kain
Sophie Tucker, Rusty Warren, Totie Fields, Bette Midler. It doesn't get any better than that!
21 - Silas Kain
If I am correct, all 4 ladies mentioned above are Jews. Does that mean Christian women have no sense of humor?
22 - Annon
What a lot of interesting comments humorous and thought provoking. I see a common thread in much of it, though. I believe it is called moral relativism. I don't think that a moral relativist can categorically say whether anything is right or wrong. He can only express his opinion. Conservative Christians who seem rigid to moral relativists seem that way, because they appeal to a higher Authority than their opinions.
23 - Jet Gardner
Actually Annon, they refer to a higher authority to validate weak opinions
24 - Annon
So, assuming that you are a moral relativist, does that mean your opinion is stronger than a conservative Christian. What objective standard do you use to demonstrate that?
25 - Baronius
Doug, I don't know what that exchange was supposed to illuminate except that people on both sides of an issue can make faulty assumptions about each other. Both of you were arguing against positions which (as far as I can tell from the excerpt you provided) the other guy didn't take. You never answered him on the question of moral authority, and he never answered you on the subject of tolerance. And you both highlighted and responded to relatively inconsequential points made by the other one. It's a pretty good demonstration of the problems of internet debate.