In the wake of the Virginia Tech horror, many will ask Where Was God?
There's a dyin' voice within me reaching out somewhere
Toiling in the danger and in the morals of despair
Don't have the inclination to look back on any mistake
Like Cain, I now behold this chain of events that I must break
In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand
In every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.…
Article comments
26 - JC Mosquito
Got a lot (or some at least) of the same participants, too.
27 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Got you message, Rick.
Thanks,
28 - Baritone
A writer I heard in an interview with Terry Gross on her Fresh Air program a few years ago whose name escapes me told of once watching the telecast of Broadway's Tony Awards - of how each succeeding winner would take the stage and often thanking, among others, god. The thought occured to him that god had nothing to say about the Holocaust, but he involves himself with the Tonys.
Food for thought.
People who claim to "know" of god's existence are the ultimately deluded and brainwashed. They "know" nothing. Faith is not a virtue. Humans are capable of rationalizing about anything. All throughout our history man has believed in some myth or other, each in its own time being discarded. As Richard Dawkins states, christians, muslims and jews are atheists regarding all gods but one. True atheists just take it one more god.
Michael Onfrey, in his wonderful book Atheist Manifesto states "Well-conducted introspection dispels the dreams and delirium on which gods feed. Atheism is not therapy but restored mental health."
The sooner mankind chooses to throw off their slavish fealty to gods, the greater the possibility of our survival.
Baritone
29 - JC Mosquito
Define myth.
Sure, Zeus, Odin, whatever - now, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but I don't believe any of these cultures were self aware of their reasons for believing and/or constructing these myths. They had no better explanation for day and night other than Apollo driving the sun chariot across the sky. Of course, I personally don't buy that explanation - I know it's all about gravity and centrifugal force & mass & stuff. After all, we live in a world that can largely be explained by science. And I don't but this Earth was created in six days and it's only a few thousnad years old hooey. That's figurative language in Genesis, not scientific process. And the Bible writers knew that, and modern people ought to know that too. Unfortunately, there's a lot of illiteracy out there, and even more unfortunately, there are those who choose to be willingly illiterate when it comes to religion or ethics or morals - and that includes both believers as well as non believers.
But there are still some things left unanswered. Until science can provide an explanation for why there are school shootings, holocausts and 9/11, or love at first sight, the kindness of strangers and that feeling you get sitting in from of a fireplace with a cup of hot chocolate on Christmas Eve, people will be looking for other answers.
I think it's about matching the right questions withi the right answers. To deny the existence of a higher being may seem like "throwing off slavish fealty to gods," but maybe what humanity needs is to throw off is its sense of self importance and accept that we're not in any position to be masters of the universe.
Sorry - it's all over the place this morning. My own version of a few stray thoughts.
30 - Baritone
Well, no. Humans can hardly be considered to be "masters of the universe." At least not yet. While I believe that there is likely other intelligent life - having perhaps far greater intelligence than we - in the universe, to this juncture as far as we know, we are at the top of the intellectual food chain.
As to science providing explanations for random killings, 9/11, or the kindness of strangers, those answers may well be coming. However, in the interim I see no reason to fall back on a belief in some god or even more nebulous higher power. It is not hubris for us to believe that humanity is the nearest thing to god we know of. That is the only thing for which there is any concrete evidence. To date, we have encountered no higher beings or greater intelligence. There is no concrete evidence for god. It is only rational to accept that we are IT - warts and all - we are on the top of the heap and in that respect we carry all the privileges and obligations that come with it. We cannot pass the buck to god. It's all on us.
Baritone
31 - JC Mosquito
Frankly, I would agree with a lot of what you said about not passing the buck - and we are it as far as we know. So we have to be responsible for taking care of what we got.
But when are all knowing, and always right, and able to explain everything, and live forever, and change reality (through time travel maybe?) and omniescent, then I'll certainly cede you the point - we will be God. I just don't see that time coming anytime soon, or ever, really.
If we ever do become those all powerful beings, I think we'll be pretty bored - everything's been done & anything broken can be fixed & anything we want we can create - there would be no limits.
If you are able to enjoy the world without believing in God, I'm not one to convince you otherwise. I think there will always be things we don't know, and things we can never know. For me, to deny God is to deny beauty, wonder, mystery, and maybe most importantly, humanity (warts and all).
Sk.
32 - Baritone
JC,
I don't deny wonder and beauty. We embody all that and more. Science is a wonder. We don't need anything outside ourselves and the universe we abide in to realize great things. We don't need a god to do, and be good. We define morality.
The notion that there MUST be something that is perfect, something all knowing, all powerful just muddles everything up. People are terrified of the responsibility. If we can believe that we are subject to some "higher power," we can abrogate our responsibility by claiming that something was "god's will" or part of "god's plan." or that "the devil made me do it." That is all a bunch of baloney - the good stuff, though, not any of that watered down turkey baloney crap.
The universe houses wondrous beauty. Watch the Discovery Channel's Planet Earth series. There are wonders on this planet beyond belief. And its all evolutionary.
Baritone
33 - JC Mosquito
The debbil made me do it...!
No, I don't think choice involves supernatural forces playing a supercomplicated game of Barbies - that's some other version of belief - likely the version to which your remarks apply.
You reason with accuracy & goodwill - a potent combination. I don't know how else to explain myself... other than to say I believe my life's been richer for the belief. That's a pretty subjective view for a discourse style that's based on objective arguments developed in sequence, but I think a certain amount of subjectivity - a randomness, a chance, an unknown quantity inherent in the world - an idea like quantum theory, even - at play in our lives. I wonder what's in those pockets of incoherence unreachable through rational thought?
Hmm... I sound like a dime store mystic. Doesn't matter - they have their place too, just like the fundamentalists, who I wish had more fun and weren't so mental. I wish you the best in your battles with them, of which you'll probably have many in the future if I remember your bio sheet correctly. You'll probably disagree, but maybe if you straighten at least a few of them out, there are some who might say you're doing God's work after all.
Skeeter.
34 - Arch Conservative
Leslie the actual existence of a god and religion have absolutely nothing to do with one another.
Just because one can disprove the ideas of man made religions does not mean that the existence of a diety can be disproven and to this day it hasn't been disproven.
I am tired of hearing people like Christopher say the onus is on believers when non-believers have no more proof for their point of view.
Christopher states.....
"However, not having the trusting mind of a child, I'm not prepared to accept it just because some other humans make the assertion but can't support it."
So I take it you don't give the big bang theory or any other science based creation theories any more creedence than you do the notion of a diety Christopher? After all the big bang theory can no more be proven or disproven than the existence of a god. One second nothing existed and then there was a big bang and the universe was born? No rhyme, no reason, no cause? I'm sorry but that's blind faith pal. Maybe you and your ilk should try being a tad bit condescending in addressing people who believe in god lest you run the risk of sounding like a hypocrite.
35 - Arch Conservative
that should read "less condescending"
I don't even knwo why I bothered to offer the correction as people like Chris are obviously incapable of doing what I suggested.
36 - zingzing
well, of course there is the possibility that a man in the sky created the universe. it's also a possibility that all we are is the fart of a blade of red grass (yes, red grass can fart in this supposed universe) and that fart has lasted billions of years (or 6,000, whichever).
i don't pretend to understand the big bang. it does lead one to question things. it's possible we'll never know. evolution though... i think that's pretty easy to understand. and it looks like a damn good theory to me.
37 - Arch Conservative
Does it surprise you that many many people who believe in god also believe in evolution zing?
Too many atheists/secularist commandos view all christians in this nation as believing that science and faith in god are mutually exclusive concepts when this is not the case.
Another thing I don't understand is why the atheist secularist commandos feel it necessary to ridicule and belittle religious people and the way they live their lives all the time. While it may not be possible to prove the existence of god there is an abundance of evidence that illustrates how religious belief helps people get through tough and trying times in their lives and dictates how they behave as a member of society in accordance with their religious beliefs.
Now I'm not talking about rabid christians who will tell you you're going to hell unless you accept jesus because those people deserve to be treated with contempt if they're not going to have respect for others different beliefs. I am talking about average Christians who keep to themselves in practicing their beliefs and aren't in your face but who the atheist secularist commandos still feel it necessary to demean and look down thier noses at.
I have no problem with with atheists believing what they believe. My problem is with the ones who look at all people of faith and say "oh you're so ignorant, i'm so superior to you because I don't believe in or need religion in my life like weak ignorant people like you."
38 - bluefire
I believe that God exists but not confined to any particular religous system. The quote below needs to be corrected.
"God could force you to love and obey him, but what kind of love would that be? He wants you to come to Him of your own free will and love Him because you want to and not because you have to."
Excuse me but don't you go to hell if you don't believe? And doesn't the bible speak of terrible plaques and punishment awaiting mankind? I wonder what kind of love this is? Punishment if you don't believe. And the loving god will cast you into hell where you will suffer and burn and never die, but continuously and sadisticly tortured for all eternity! Love must never hurt or inflict pain upon the person that is being loved.
Bluefire
No longer in Christ!
39 - Baritone
Christians are so put upon, so maligned. They are forced to keep their faith in silence, out of the limelight. They can't let anyone know they believe in god because of the ridicule they receive from all sides. They are forced to bear their burden alone and secretly for fear of reprisals, the loss of their jobs, or perhaps even physical harm. Woe is... Hey, wait. I got it backwards.
Christians rule the damn roost, don't they? It is atheists and agnostics who are so often forced to hold their piece. Atheists are condescending? Christians just tell us that we're damned to hell. From the religious perspective that's about as bad as it gets isn't it?
Baritone
40 - JC Mosquito
Hell?... hell no....
True scholars out there, correct my definitions if you feel I'm totally wrong here, but my understanding is that the Bible uses two words to describe hell - "Hades" and "Gehenna." Hades is simply "the place of the dead" or where the souls of the dead await. "Gehenna" is actually a place - a valley outside of Jerusalem (I think) that was used as the local garbage landfill - there was junk and refuse and there were always fires & stuff burning in it. The local residents believed it was used by ancient peoples as a place of human sacrifice - and since no one wanted to live there, it became the town dump.
References to people going to hell are basically like saying "this person is useless - out with the trash!" Like when the Bible says something happened for forty days and forty nights, it's an idiom - a saying. Or like when your mother used to say, "I told you a million times..." Unless the references are about Hades, where the dead wait, usually for judgement.
Once again, an example of how inaccurate translations are used in a literal but not literary sense by people who don't know the richness of the figurative language of the Bible.
Modern theologians define Heaven as being in the presence of God and Hell as reject the presence of God. And it's your choice - just like you don't have to live in Timbucktu if you don't want to.
41 - Christopher Rose
Arch, what you clearly fail to get about the scientific approach is this:-
We don't adhere mindlessly to any idea if it becomes untenable in the face of the facts. Anybody worth their intellectual salt would update their understanding if new information became available.
So far, the Big Bang theory - and people are generally humble enough to accept that it is, in part, just a theory - is our best explanation of the physical evidence we have discovered to date.
On the other hand, you are apparently perfectly willing to believe absolutely in the existence of a god despite zero evidence to support the idea.
Naturally that makes people who don't share that unsupported view question the wisdom of your perspective. It also displays a level of arrogance that many would rightly find offensive.
You have also confused two different aspects of the Big Bang theory, Archie. There is clear physical evidence out in the universe that such an event occurred.
On the other hand, what happened before this mother of all explosions is unclear - and understandably so. We are talking about a very big bang and it was all a very long time ago, so it is no surprise at all that some things are as yet unknown.
Understanding the universe in which we find ourselves is an ongoing project and nobody is arrogant enough to claim that we understand it all yet, far from it.
However, let's contrast that sharply with your approach, wherein you seem happy to assert that there is a single god without anything at all to suport that view. You also seem content to believe the idea, despite the fact that the very concept is of far more recent origin than humanity itself.
I don't believe that I am superior to you or other people of faith. Indeed, if you were paying attention to what I say, rather than the things you wrongly choose to rage against, you'd know that I welcome the idea of a god. I'm just not prepared to believe in an unsupported conjecture.
If there is a god, I do hope that it has more of the qualities of awe and love displayed by Baritone in parts of comment #32 above than the constant aggression, hatred and resentment that you proffer on these pages on a regular basis...
42 - Baritone
I don't believe that when some fire and brimstone evangelist declaims that all dis-believers will be consigned to hell for eternity, that he or she is referring to a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. Could be, though.
If you think about it, god's requiring unfaltering fealty to him (her, it) to gain entrance into his (her, its) realm is repugnant. That requires one huge ego. Also consider, what's in it for god? What possible reason would an all knowing, all powerful entity have for creating this universe and placing us puny little humans on an insignificant little planet and putting us through all this pain and suffering? Does god require the subjugation of millions of clueless, hapless souls to salve his (her, its) ego?
By the way Christopher, you have said that you'd welcome a god. If a god did present him (her, it) self to us, I think there would be a lot of (as Ricky Ricardo would say) 'splaining to do. To use a metaphor, god would have to do a lot of tap dancing around all the crap that humanity has been forced to live through. I put it thus because if some god is in fact at the helm, then it's all his (her, its) fault.
Baritone
43 - JC Mosquito
No, you're right - the fire & brimstone evangelists usually don't have enough honesty to lay that particular line of thought out to their congregations.
Maybe the perspective needs to be turned around - instead of focusing on the "God vs. no God" positions, we should be focusing on the "so how are we supposed to act" aspects. I would think that all men and women of goodwill would want pretty much the same things. The problem is in the details, which we all should've learned by now don't usually mean much.
Tolerance is what I'm looking for in the modern world - but do we tolerate the intolerant?
44 - Christopher Rose
I blame the Goa'uld.
45 - Baritone
Christopher,
Say what?
Baritone
46 - JC Mosquito
Ahhh.. beam me up, Scotty.
47 - zingzing
arch: "Does it surprise you that many many people who believe in god also believe in evolution zing?"
no.
"Another thing I don't understand is why the atheist secularist commandos feel it necessary to ridicule and belittle religious people and the way they live their lives all the time."
i think you answer your question later on. there are those ("commandos") who will ridicule and belittle. there are also those ("rabid christians") on the other side who will do the same.
i don't think christians are necesarrily stupid. in fact, i know several very intelligent christians. i just think that christians are a little eager to believe in something. and a little foolish to believe in what they choose to believe in. and sometimes, that foolish eagerness to believe in god can get dangerous, because god has never told anyone what to believe... some men did, many years ago, in a book that has been translated by a power-hungry organization, and is interpretted literally.
48 - JC Mosquito
"... and UNFORTUNATELY is OFTEN interpreted literally" is how I would put it.
49 - zingzing
hrm. i suppose that last phrase of mine is a little harsh. but, it's when the bible is interpretted literally that christianity gets dangerous. that's what i was trying to point out.
christian belief in and of itself is not dangerous at all. REAL christianity stresses forgiveness, love and witholding judgment on a personal level. lovely stuff. it gets dangerous when biblical words are cherry-picked to spread hatred and judgment, especially when such cherry-picking is organized by the Church.
50 - Christopher Rose
Baritone: The Goa'uld were the alien race that came to Earth and used their advanced technology to trick the humans into falsely believing they were gods in the movie and TV series Stargate...
51 - Baritone
Christopher,
Thanks for the edification. Stargate - both incarnations - slipped by me. I was always more of a Star Trek guy myself, expecially TNG & Voyager.
zingzing,
I understand what you are saying about, what some would think of as "mainstream" christianity. However, your identifying it as "real" christianity, I imagine some would take issue with. The fact is that mainstream christianity is losing numbers in droves, often to the very attractive and slickly run "mega-churches" that are popping up like mushrooms all over the country. Most if not all of these monster congregations lean both religiously and politically far to the right. They tend to be fundamentalist and/or evangelical and solidly in the conservative republican camp.
As I noted, it is perhaps these folks who would define "real" christianity in a different fashion than you have here. These, and other fundamentalist churches tend to eschew being in any way ecumenical. They insist that their adherents toe the line as they preach it or there will be hell to pay.
Oh, and I don't think your "power hungry" comment was too harsh or out of line at all.
Baritone
52 - Rick Vassar
Okay. Here we go. This is what I believe. It is my beliefs and mine alone.
I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, breathed through its writers over thousands of years. We as humans are sinful and cannot enter the kingdom of heaven because of our sin.
God, knowing that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven, sent His Son, Jesus, who was God in human flesh. He was born, he lived a sinless life and then dies as the sacrificial lamb. All those who put their faith in Jesus will be judged, and although having led a sinful life, because of the profession og faith in the Messiah, Jesus will stand and say "he's with me".
I don't try to live well so I can get into heaven. I try to live a good life because I truly believe that I am going to heaven
I do not belong to a religion. I have faith. Since all churches are made up of humans, bad things will happen. I like to say that the main problem with Christianity is Christians. Judgement of others is probably our greatest failing.
If you've been burned by a Christian, join the club. This does not destroy my faith, although it is sorely tested daily.
If you would like to have a conversation with a fairly "rational" Christian, you may (or may not) have found one. I don't scare easy.
I know I'm not the shapest knife in the drawer, but it makes sense to me. It didn't always make sense to me, but it does now.
I would challenge all of you, though, to study the Bible, and look to disprove it with an open or closed mind. That's really the only way you can have an objective and intellectual dialogue.
I can't quote you chapter and verse. I try to live my life so people will look at me and want to know why I have the peace I do. I fail miserably more often than I succeed, but I'm a work in progress.
As are we all...
53 - bluefire
According to what I have read in the bible, everything is a creation of god, including the devil. What about thoughts, though? When we think of something defined as evil, are we the one who created such a thought or did it pre-exist? Since god created "everything", is god not the creator of evil? If evil was our own creation, it suggests that we have the power to create. Are we then gods? Remember that we are supposedly created in "his" image meaning that we are everything that god is.
Can god choose a certain people to become "his" people? Does it suggest that god does not play fair? It also means that other people were not good enough. Clearly a racist notion!
Thou shall not kill. Why did the god of the bible kill and even order "his chosen people" to kill. Even the apostle peter witnessed the killing of ananias and shapira in the book of acts - maybe even to the point of suggesting that they die.
Why must this god even create hell? Hell apparently is some rubbish dump according to some of you but according to the bible, the devil will be cast into hell including all who follow the devil. This can be read in revelation. Also revelation suggests that the devil will be locked up for 1000 years before being let lose again. Why does this god want to watch the fun? As such I cannot believe in a religion that "chooses people", where god does not follow the commandments, where we are doomed to hell if we choose not to align with this god, where there is sadistic pleasure in watching humanity curl up and cry. Can you imagine if a human did this to us? The US will probably bomb the crap out of this person.
Looks more like an alien war that took place and somehow we got sucked into it. We are remnants of a superior alien race and somehow the other aliens/gods decided to suppress our powers by using religion.
Please set yourself free from religion. I'm not saying don't believe in god. Be free. Know the truth and be free. You have so much potential as a human being. Let's not get caught up trying to justify religion. If god truly cares, he will not want to tie you up with religion. You are the temple of god. You either worship from within or distort everything and setup your own religion. Now's that's your real choice.
Bluefire
No longer in christ!
54 - JC Mosquito
I'm starting to regret mentioning the connection between Hell & Gehenna....
Look, a person can read the Bible from a simplistic, narrow, literal point of view and can find all sorts of evidence to support God as a concept, Christianity as a religion, or Jesus as a divine being. As well, one can easily look at the Bible with a narrow viewpoint and find all sorts of reasons to see God as vengeful, Christianity as divisive, and all believers as deluded. But the Bible wasn't meant to be interpreted literally - the Jewish people had a fine oral tradition and after that a fine written tradition, and therefore understood the metaphoric meanings behind the stories and images.
Think of an important document like the US Constitution or the Magna Carta in England or the Charter of Rights & Freedoms in Canada. Anybody can read them and get a surface understanding, but it takes teams of scholars, lawyers, poiliticians and historians to define what they mean in a practical sense. If you had to go to court, would you want someone knowledgeable about the language to represent you or some Jethro Bodine with a sixth grade education?
And that's the way it was in the church for years - priests were the specialists. But they found that being literate put them in positions of power and the liked being there at the expense of their various flocks. In the modern world, people are more literate and should be taking more responsibility to make the world a better place. Unfortunately, there are those who refuse to be literate - they take pride in their own ignorance (personally I think it's because as a society we glorify idiots, but that's another topic for another time). There can be no meaningful dialogue with people who can't make the jump to the next level. A literate athiest and a literate Christian have some common ground and can discourse - fundamentalists and godhaters have their own agenda and simply perform simultaneous monologues.
55 - Baritone
Blue,
I agree with much that you say above. The US seems to glory in ignorance more than about anywhere else - at least in the industrialized world. Many people carry around an "aw schucks" attitude eschewing "book larnin."
It is unfortunate that so many people who choose to take the bible literally are currently holding sway. Many of their followers are the aforementioned illiterates.
Some of my posts and comments here and elsewhere have been heavy handed and accusatory. I don't apologize for it, sometimes you gotta smack somebody upside the head as it were to get their attention. However, I do agree that reasoned discourse between opposing factions - in whatever arena - is more likely to move the discussion forward to make possible some acceptable compromise through a greater understanding of the other's perspective or position. Some of the head banging we do here is probably in the end pretty useless. I'm likely to do more of it in the future - sometimes ya just gotta vent - but I think I have brought and will bring some reasoned discussion to the table as well.
Baritone
56 - Pope Silas I
From the Gospel of Thomas: "Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
From the Aprochryphon of James: ""Become haters of hypocrisy and evil thought. For it is thought which gives birth to hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is far from the truth."
Gee, I wonder why these texts and thousands of others never made it to Christianity thanks to Iranaeus? Could it be that the perpetuation of the first Christian Schism between Paul and Peter was guaranteed by this so-called Doctor of the Church? Seek and ye shall find my friends. The answers are all around you and not contained in James' version of things.
57 - Baronius
Bluefire, Christianity has traditionally held that evil is separation from God. So, in that sense, “God doesn’t create evil” means that God doesn’t create distance from Himself. That might be more intuitive for you. God permits people to wander away from Him, but He doesn’t create barriers between us and Him. (All of which is the same as saying that God is love.)
Continuing on, evil isn’t a creation, it’s an absence. So God can be said to have created everything, but not to have created evil. Also, since God cannot be missing from Himself, He can’t sin.
You mentioned “thou shalt not kill”. The Hebrew word is actually “murder”. Killings are permitted in self-defense and war, as examples. You also talked about Hell as being unfair. Hell really only makes sense if it’s voluntary. Hell is the ultimate separation from God, and some people choose it. Or, rather, some people choose all their lives to be as separated from God as they can be, so I imagine they’ll have no problem choosing Hell over Heaven.
58 - JC Mosquito
Thank you, Baronius. You did a better job of encapsulating the fine points than I ever could have.
59 - Dr Dreadful
JC Mosquito, comment #23:
Evening. Sorry to backtrack so far, but I just came on this thread and your comment caught my eye. Allow me to...
if there's no God, we're all dust. If there's God, he'll be forgiving and all will be well.
Ah, Pascal's Wager. With which the obvious logical flaw is: Suppose you take the wager and when you die it is confirmed that there is, indeed, a God. Just one problem: he's the God of Islam and not Christianity*. You're screwed anyway.
*I'm assuming you're a Christian for the purpose of the argument. My apologies if you're not.
We'll all get a chance to find out if Eddie Van Halen really is as good (or better) than Hendrix.
That seems to be a bit like saying Anna Kournikova was a better tennis player than Billie Jean King...
60 - JC Mosquito
No prob, Dr. D. - yes, I supppose for each of us, if in the end God isn't what we think he/she/it to be, tha's a problem - suppose all that H.P. Lovecraft Cthuulu stuff is right after all? Urk.
I would like to think God, hoping he/she/it exists in some form, will be able to truly see into the heart & soul of each of us. Judgement - simply the exposing to the light of truth all the things that make us who we are, so we can see where we succeeded & failed & truly know ourselves without any self-deception.
Earlier Baronius spoke of Hell as a choice. So does the most evil human whoever existed (whoever that is) get to choose whether he or she will be forgiven & get into heaven despite all they did? Sure - but you know how it is - you become what you practise. I think he or she would be extremely selfish and wouldn't want to be part of anything where they weren't in charge, and therefore their choice would be Hell - total separation from God (and everyone else).
Anna K & Billie Jean King? I don't know much about tennis, but I know which is easier on the eyes. Maybe that's as good a proof for the existence of God as I'm going to present to anyone tonight.
61 - Belle
JC, I bought, read and loaned the book you recommended a while ago titled, "When Bad Things Happen to Good People". The points made in this book made so much sense to me. I wish I had it here to cite, but I still don't have it back. I added a lot of yellow highlight's throughout the entire book. It was a quick read and full of insight.
I was raised in a loving family with a strong connection to a community based church. So far I have been able to balance my beliefs in God with my scientific approach to life. I agree with you, the Bible is NOT meant to be read like a textbook. A long time ago I took a World Religion course where I came to realize the major religions have lots in common. People keep getting lost in the details.
62 - JC Mosquito
Glad you got some good reading out of that, Belle. It's book that I should reread myself, having not read it for a few years now.
63 - bluefire
Hi! This seems like a great place to share ideas without getting shot down. Thanks!
Anyway, let's begin looking a little deeper into our belief patterns. Why are you a Christian and not a Hindu or Buddhist or any other religion/belief system? I am guessing this is due to the fact that the church system is the only exposure one gets in the western world. Have you read any other religious books beside the bible or have you decided that the bible is a be all and end all? Maybe it's time to explore other religious thoughts. Sometimes we get so caught up with what has been taught to us that we judge everything by that very wall. Consider bringing the wall down and looking at what has been written to teach us about god. Is Christianity a western thing, most definitely not as it's Jewish in origin and should be considered Eastern.
And by the way on the issue of kill vs. murder, was that used to justify the killings / murders of slaves since the slaves were considered lower class humans? How does one justify the act of kill / murder? Little babies were killed, mothers had their pregnant stomachs ripped open because god wanted it that way. Check the Old Testament for every type of bloodbath known to man. Surprisingly the devil didn't seem to kill anyone except maybe Job's kids and that after getting permission from god. You got to be kidding me when you separate evil from god since god has to give permission to even the devil to perform any type of evil! Buddha told his people not to harm even the lowliest of creatures including ants because all is life and all must be revered. I am not a Buddhist, by the way. There are killings even in so-called Buddhist countries.
You got to look beyond yourself and your current belief system to enjoy the freedom that comes in believing god.
Sometime we look at things from the surface and forget that the hidden deep parts that are under water are the ones that reveal the real thoughts. Look at Islam, looks nice and fine on the surface but as one digs deeper, one realizes that one can get access to 72 virgins and 15 little boys after completing the jihad. The same with Christianity, try digging deeper. It's important because that defines us - who we are and how we behave.
64 - JC Mosquito
Each religion is rooted in its own unique ethnocentricity and history. The question is whether it has the flexibility to adapt to changing times, and whether its adherents are willing to reinterpret the details in order to make the generalized ideals work. A lot of that old stuff no longer applies, or never addressed today's issues.
I think when people are scared they get all literal and by the book (no pun intended): it's an easy way to separate wrong from right and furthermore absolve themselves of personal responsibility. When people's lives are relatively calm they're more willing to live and let live.
Yeah, these threads are nice when poeple aren't trying to character assasinate each other.
65 - Baronius
JC, thanks. Actually, I'm pretty disappointed with my explanation. You did a good job in pointing out that the choice we make (for heaven or hell) is an ongoing part of our lives. There's also the central role of Jesus, but I felt like He would have been too much to handle in three paragraphs.
I'm not a Biblical literalist. I believe that the Bible is uniquely divinely inspired, but it has to be interpreted correctly. So I'm probably much closer to literalism than you are.
Bluefire, I don't know how many people are Christian by cultural heritage. I guess we're going to find out, as a big chunk of the current generation is growing up unchurched. I personally have looked at a good number of religions. My Christian upbringing didn't guarantee that I'd be a Christian (although my mom was certainly relieved).
66 - SonnyD
Skeeter, Baronius, Pope S., et al: Thanks for the interesting, rational conversation.