I just don't get the gay marriage debate. I really don't.
I'm going to start with a statistic. 91% of young people say they frequently hear things being referred to as "gay" that are bad - negative, things they don't like. A survey found 84% of young people say they frequently hear the words "faggot" and "dyke" in reference to other students (In The Life, Logo Channel). In a piece where I'm addressing gay marriage, you'd think those things aren't necessarily important. But that is my point. Often when debating the issue of gay marriage, or the issue of gays in the military, or any other gay rights issue, we are arguing the topic and not the issue. …
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - gonzo marx
Xenophon sez...
*Religion has a surprising and important role in the U.S. *
a decent, if debateable point...but you miss somethign huge here...where religion does have influence on Culture...in America it has no bearing on the Law...see the difference?
again and again the Question has been Asked...
"how does recognizing the Rights of individuals to enjoy legal freedom of association in governmentally recognized "marriage" impinge, impugn or diminish "marriage" for ANYONE else?"
and NEVER has anyone been able to answer that Question...
since the writing of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, our Nation has always sought to expand the Liberties of it's citizens, with the basic guideline that if it does not harm or infringe on the Rights of others, then aforementioned Rights shoudl be recognized legally...
examples; ending Slavery and allowing women to vote....both of these Recognized basic Rights for a minority against the "tradition" of contemporary culture, and also against the desires of the majority...in both cases the Rights of the minority were Recognized as basic and did not infringe on the Majority's Rights , but rather re-enforced the principles of the Republic
civil recognition of gay marriage is NO different from tha legal standpoint
good Article, Chris
/golfclap
Excelsior?
27 - Freeforall
Excellent article!
The sheer silliness of the religious-right and this argument of the "gay agenda" is stupefying.
It is not as if, once gay "marriage" or "civil unions" become legal, all of us heterosexuals in the world will be trading in our mates for one of our same gender.
After all, once we have all been recruited to be "gay," the human race would die out in short order.
You are what you are! Why would anyone, deliberately choose to be a pariah?
Do these people ever think? It seems their lives are directed by rote, just as those of the hateful, bigoted Islamofascists. Any religion that demonizes the "other" is a cult! A cult that states: "Everything for those who believe as we do, and nothing for the 'other' "
Just another side of the same religious extremism coin.
The God of all creatures did not exclude homosexuals. Homosexuality is rather prevalent in Nature--in more creatures than not. Why should man be the exception?
---"Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it."
Keep thinking! Keep posting. :))
Véronique
28 - Jet in Columbus
More people throughout history have been hurt, downtrodden, or killed/murdered in the name of God and Jesus Christ than for any other reason.
There will always be people who would rather put words in God's mouth, than to follow the ones they already have.
Solus mei sententia
Jet
29 - Ivy
If I were at all religious i'd give a great big AMEN right now.. Very well done! Great article!
30 - Arlene
One angle that I never see considered in the argument concerning gay marriage is this: Is banning gay marriage based on the fact that the two people are of the same sex not discrimination based on sexual gender? There are already standing laws in effort to protect people against sexual discrimination. Why this does apply to EVERY person I cannot understand. Please be reminded that the Constitution does not say "We, the people (except homosexuals)..."
31 - Drover
Isn't this whole thing just a matter of semantics dealing with how the word "marriage" is defined?
Since the word has sacred connotations for so many people, why not just replace it in the law books with "commitment" ... and apply it to all unions whether gay or not.
Divorce would then be defined as "failure to keep your commitment" (which is what it really is).
32 - gonzo marx
fair enough..as long as you change it from a legal "marriage license" to state a "civil union license"
there's the point... equal treatment under the Law
some would try the "seperate but equal" bullshit of the old Jim Crowe days...which we , as a nation, have since determined was against the principles of our Constitution
therefore, if you are going to call it something,as is legally recognized by the government (note i say NOTHING about churches, who are free to do as they please within the ocnfines of their congregations)...then it needs to be the same for ALL...gay or straight
Excelsior?
33 - Ivy
Yes Drover you are correct.. I've been married to my husband for 7 years now. Yet I do not believe in god or religion. So according to the way marriage is trying to be defined.. Then my marriage shouldn't be legal should it.. Because marriage in the EYES OF GOD is deemed between a man and woman and its considered a christian/religious thing one way or another.. While I've got the married to a man part down, I do not believe in god or religion. Certainly not the Christian form of religion does that make my marriage any less valid?
That's what they are trying to prove isn't it? That marriage is defined by religion or christian values? Since I don't believe in god or christian values.. does that mean my values are any less? That my marriage or commitment is any less? That my children should be shielded from me and my husband because they wont get the moral upbringing they should have?
34 - Reed
I'm (not violently, but strongly) anti-religious and couldn't care less who had sex with who as long as I didn't (necessarily) have to watch. It's safe to say that I'm fairly heterosexual.
So gay marriage, eh? Consider me naïve, but I still don't get what the point is. Why can't dudes that love each other just love each other? As you said, marriage ain't too sacred, Chris. I don't even know how willing I am to get married because it seems like it kind of takes away from that whole aspect of "love" more than anything else.
I understand the whole concept of comparing it to slavery, women's rights, civil rights, and whatever else, but being able to marry your lover seems like it's only a big deal because it's something the establishment won't let you do. However, it's not like you're out picking cotton and being prohibited from voting on presidents.
What are these benefits that come with marriage that you're so longing for? And, again, forgive my naïvete, Chris, I'm just a bystander here. Is it the financial benefits? I'd guess so, unless you can enlighten me on anything else. Obviously I haven't thoroughly researched all of the positives and have only, like everyone else, heard about the negatives, but your article seemed passionate enough to warrant a response.
Lastly, it seems to me like there's one thing everyone's missing about the situation and I didn't see it addressed in your writing. There's one argument, outside of the religious aspect, that can (at least as far as I'm aware) be made fairly easily.
Say you open up marriage (and all of its benefits) to homosexuals. What's to stop any two buddies, roommates, guys that play video games all day, from getting married, just so they can share the benefits (that I'm still unsure of, but certainly the financial ones). Will they have to prove that they're gay in court? Anal sex on the exhibit table, Chris? I'm sure a couple of guys wouldn't mind kissing each other just to share taxes if they're going to take their joke all the way to the marriage courts. And who's to decide? Imagine the lawsuits.
Maybe this is an argument that's been gone over many times and solved and if so, excuse my ignorance.
In any event, good article.
35 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Joshua Drake writes, "Asking that traditional Married couples except same sex couples as Married is a slap to the tradition."
With all due respect Mr. Drake, speak for yourself.
This "traditionally" (a.k.a. heterosexual) married woman feels uncomfortably privileged and undemocratic, and finds marriage inequality to be a slap to the cherished tradition of liberty and justice for all.
To some of us, marriage actually means less when our rights are recognized merely because we happened to have been born heterosexual. We don't feel right about enjoying the benefits of rights that are arbitrarily denied to our fellow Americans who happened to have been born homosexual.
Every argument made in defense of this continued oppression of gay and lesbian people is offensive to the institution of marriage, for those assertions degrade and denigrate that institution by reducing its meaning to the basest element of demographic biology.
Marriage does indeed need protecting and defending, not from homosexuals, but from those people who make it into something meaningless for the purpose of supporting anachronisms that have no practical place in modern society.
36 - gonzo marx
Reed asks some decent Questions...but they all revolve around the same Answer...equal protection under the Law...
he asks what's to stop two buddies from getting married just to share benefits...why nothing, just as marriages of convenience between men and women that did not involve sex have been recognized for all of history
the root Question here is once again....how does recognizing this for the minority, hurt or harm it for anyone else
nobody has even come close to answering that one
until then, there is NO legal justification for NOT allowing same-sex marriages...as the Supreme Court of Massachusetts found in their ruling
what scares the hell out of some folks is that if ever pushed to SCOTUS, the ruling would be the same, and for the same reasons...hence their desire to force unconstitutional Amendments into law
Excelsior?
Excelsior?
37 - Chris Evans
Reed, I understand your point--but there's one problem with it. Replace one of your "dudes" with a female.
38 - Ivy
Reed. I think the other look at opening marriage up that you mention is a lil silly.. Under the same "theory" that could go for any couple. JUST to share the benefits.. The benefits are more than just financial. There is being recognized LEGALLY as the persons spouse. And with being named spouse you have the benefit of if anything happens to your spouse and they are unable to make decisions regarding their future (health, ect) then being their spouse you have hte right to speak for them. There is not being left out because you are not the spouse. Then there is also the legal aspects of financial means but thats not the whole issue. If marriage is all about financial aspects then lets do away with marriage.. Whats the point. Before you can acknowledge your arguement you have to re evaluate what you are making of marriage or commitment in general..
Another thing.. Do you have to prove in court to get married that you are straight????? That really is kinda silly.
39 - Bliffle
There's a lot of money and power tied up in the concept of marriage, and the heteros don't want to share it. It's part of the Straight Agenda.
40 - Tony G
Yes!!! A gay marriage thread!!!! Where should I start?
"instead of saying, "Well how does gay marriage affect you?" why not ask, "Well, what is wrong with being gay in the first place?""
O.k., I'll tell you.
* Males are born with certain parts and females are born with certain parts and these parts fit together like a puzzle so we can reproduce. No Accident.
* Fifty-One percent of humans are Female, Forty-Nine percent of humans are Male. If you take in consideration that Females tend live a little longer than Males than it would be 50-50. Hence, one woman for every man. No Accident
* Only five percent of Americans go against the first two bullets, the majority (Fify-Seven percent) of Americans with AIDS or HIV got AIDS or HIV by going against the first two principles. No Accident.
* Anyone that goes against the first two bullets needs help and support from their peers, not special rights.
* Genes are inheretied from parents, so since gays don't reproduce how would a "gay gene" exist??? It doesn't.
* Humans aren't special, we are just animals. So why don't we see gays among lions or zebras or geese??? Because they don't exist.
* The only way a child can be born is by a male and a female. This is no accident, because it was intended that these same two male and female bring up this child.
41 - David Chester
Excellent article. You covered it all. You asked the questions and answered them with better questions. Yes, let's have an amendment against divorce, Britney, or better yet, Paris!
Thank you for taking time to write this and now, if every hate-filled Christian in this country would read this and get the message, maybe people would focus on things that really matter, like health care and gas prices.
Thanks again!
42 - straight guy
I thought it was a very well written article with very well made points. Leave out the "brainwashing" part at the end, and it's even better...good luck, most people don't like change...
43 - Andy Marsh
very well written piece here...
It's pieces like this and comments that I've read on other threads that have changed my mind on this issue...
I used to argue that I didn't care if homosexuals got everything but the word...after reading this and other well put arguments and some folks comments around here...I've had a change of heart...after all...it is ONLY a word.
...and spending some time in the military...I've seen tons of convenience marriages...it was a helluva pay raise if you got married in the military! I mean a serious pay raise...thousands a year! Back when I got married, I think my pay almost doubled! and it was all tax free money too!
I also knew a few guys that got paid to marry women that weren't US citizens...so...you guys/gals/whatevers...go ahead...marry away...I've decided...you can have marriage...but not divorce...so that's the next fight! I'm kidding!
But think about it...I don't know the numbers, but I know they're high...if marriage is such a great thing, why are there so many divorces?
I read a sign once that said...Marriage is a mutual misunderstanding! Do you really want to get involved in a mutual misunderstanding?
44 - Barbara
Conservatives are just afraid gays will do better in the whole marriage business. Seeing as how men and women have tragically failed with 1 in 3 marriages ending in divorce.
Also, to whoever mentioned Democracy in America.. sure Tocqueville mentioned religion. He also mentioned this tiny little thing that happened to be one of his main arguments called soft despotism and the tyranny of the majority and he calls for ways to put checks on this to protect minorities. Way to read conveniently! You remind me of How Republicans read/quote the Bible. FYI, I talked to God yesterday. He's really mad at you all for using Him in the name of bigotry.
45 - Daniel
Gay married couples can adopt. I don't want any kids growing up in that adnormal environment.
46 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Well, Tony G, there is nothing wrong with being gay, it is a natural variation of the human condition and society has recognized this -- even if a few people still have trouble accepting it -- since 1973 when homosexuality was removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
Is there a rift in the space-time continuum?
47 - Tony G
Margaret, nope.
48 - Jet in Columbus
Tony like his evil twin ArchBingBat is still trying to spread the lie that AIDS is a gay disease.
I've never read such a load of self-righteous horseshit as comment 41 in my life.
49 - Bill Spry
I agree that gay marriage should be legalized, but to point out a few anal things...
While marriage predates Christianity, it appears that the tradition actually did start as a religious institution, most likely among early polytheistic peoples such as the Sumerians and early Semites. Throughout all of the early history of marriage, it was defined as one man & one woman with no thought toward anything else. Gay sexual relations were kept strictly out of marriage (see ancient Greece for a good example).
Morality and religion actually do go hand in hand. Only the most primitive moral values exist outside of religion, and that's even just a conjecture. Again, pointing to Greek society we can see that their moral values included leaving unwanted babies in the elements to die and the necessity of grown men having intercourse with male toddlers. Our current moral values are a direct result of Judeo-Christian values.
Another point is that our founding fathers were primarily Deists, not Christians. Thomas Jefferson, for example, said that Jesus's main flaw was that he didn't live long enough to achieve the heightened state of wisdom one gets in old age.
Also, the Constitution does include a 9th & 10th amendment which give the states and local governments full authority to legislate on anything that isn't mentioned in the Constitution. Therefore there is nothing unconstitutional about states banning gay marriage. And with the unlikelyhood that an amendment dealing with gay marriage will ever be passed at the federal level, this is our only way to change the status quo in either way. Of course, then there's the fact that only the 3rd amendment truly still holds force in the real world.
I disagree with gay marriage on religious grounds, but it would be anathema for me to say I opposed it on legal grounds. If the rights of any non-violent people are taken away, then my rights can be just as easily removed. And that sounds like bad news.
50 - Tony G
AIDS is a human disease, not just gay, but gays seem to be more prone to getting it. I wonder why?
51 - Andy Marsh
Come one now Jet...there's plenty more self-righteous horseshit all over BC...that one can't possibly be the worst!!!
52 - Tony G
That is the only answer you give me after all that typing I did, Jet?
53 - Dave Nalle
As with BoingBat, shouldn't you be in church?
I believe they favor traditional values. In America that means loudly professing religion while actually doing nothing to observe it.
Dave
54 - Dave Nalle
AIDS is a human disease, not just gay, but gays seem to be more prone to getting it. I wonder why?
It involves the anus, Tony, an area of your body which God does not love.
Dave
55 - sollipsist
I don't disagree with the points raised, but I feel cheated when I click on a link from a major news website and get amateur writing with unoriginal thoughts. Aim to contribute something worthwhile to the debate instead of just agreeing with what everyone else has said many times already. See URL for an eye-opener about problems with aggregate websites.
56 - Barbara
Tony, don't even get started on AIDS. Society forced gay relationships underground and due to this a subculture of promiscuous sex began. But right now at this point in time, most people infected with HIV are women and children. So did they commit some sin too? Is God trying to punish them too? I don't even know why I bother when I know that the US is full of bigots whose lives revolve around religion and demagogue ministers. Try thinking for yourself for once in your life. What has a gay person ever done to you?
57 - Jet in Columbus
To spread such blatant disinformation about HIV and to link it to an obvious hate-mongering message is the untimate in irresponsibility.
That's the only answer he deserves. Only in the U.S. is AIDS considered a homosexual disease because of people like him spreading their irresponsible lies.
Period
58 - Dave Nalle
Males are born with certain parts and females are born with certain parts and these parts fit together like a puzzle so we can reproduce. No Accident.
You're quite right. Only men and women should produce children together. As for raising them or having relationships, that has nothing to do with matching body parts.
Fifty-One percent of humans are Female, Forty-Nine percent of humans are Male. If you take in consideration that Females tend live a little longer than Males than it would be 50-50. Hence, one woman for every man. No Accident
Except that studies suggest that humans are naturally polygamous, so in reality a certain proportion of men should have multiple females, leaving too few for the rest which is okay because the differnece is made up by the portion of men who are naturally gay.
Humans aren't special, we are just animals. So why don't we see gays among lions or zebras or geese??? Because they don't exist.
Except that you DO see gay animals in all sorts of species. And BTW, I used to own a goose who would have gay sex with my dog. That's gay bestiality, all in the wonderful world of nature. Fear it.
The only way a child can be born is by a male and a female. This is no accident, because it was intended that these same two male and female bring up this child.
Many societies and many communities of animals raise their young in a group environment or have only the mother raise the young with the father not involved at all.
Dave
59 - Tony G
Gays only make up about 5% of the population. Let's make a wild guess and assume that only 2.5% of those are male and the other female.
Statistics show us that 57% of AIDS victims got it from male on male contact.
This means that only 2.5% of this male on male population is makes up a TOTAL OF 57% of the AIDS populationn.
What a coincidence!!!!
60 - Jet in Columbus
Where did you get you 2.5 percent from Jerry Falwell or your uncle Bing? it's closer to 10-15 percent.
61 - Barbara
Tony, don't even get started on AIDS. Society forced gay relationships underground and due to this a subculture of promiscuous sex began. But right now at this point in time, most people infected with HIV are women and children. So did they commit some sin too? Is God trying to punish them too? I don't even know why I bother when I know that the US is full of bigots whose lives revolve around religion and demagogue ministers. Try thinking for yourself for once in your life. What has a gay person ever done to you?
62 - Tony G
Dave, I don't know any polygamists, do you?
So where did you get that bullshit from?
As for gay animals:
I do infact believe in freaks of nature in animals. Which is why the number is too few. A big chunk of the human population claims to be gay while a very very very small percentage of animals shows some odities.
63 - Chris Evans
Mark, maybe gays wouldn't have to talk about their sexuality AT ALL if people like you and Tony didn't exist.
64 - Jet in Columbus
Tony's URL goes to a Right to Life website, that explains his faulty information quite nicely.
Please stop pounding your bible and read it!
I pity you Tony
I really do.
I think we all feel sorry for your ignorance and your misguided attitudes...
Solus mei sententia
Jet
65 - Dave Nalle
I do infact believe in freaks of nature in animals. Which is why the number is too few. A big chunk of the human population claims to be gay while a very very very small percentage of animals shows some odities.
Sadly for your delusional worldview homosexuality among animals is enormously common, probably far more so than among humans. Almost all animals engage in some form of homosexuality at least at some point in their lives. They also masturbate endlessly.
dave
66 - Jet in Columbus
You know, I was going to make a few cheap shots at Marky about wearing fat Marilyn dresses, and childish obsessons, but why state the obvious.
Solus mei sententia
Jet
67 - RogerMDillon
"AIDS is a human disease, not just gay, but gays seem to be more prone to getting it."
Tell that to Africa.
68 - Tony G
Dave, I am an animal lover and have owned and kept probably a thousand animals (fish, reptiles, birds, rodents) in my lifetime and I have never encountered a gay animal. So I know that that piece of information is false.
69 - Tony G
"Tell that to Africa"
You can't speak to a landmass.
70 - Tony G
Barbara, please refer to comment 73.
71 - gonzo marx
just to point out an obvious error..
Ant G sez...
** Genes are inheretied from parents, so since gays don't reproduce how would a "gay gene" exist??? It doesn't.*
now, anyone want to explain what a recessive gene is to our young boy here?
it's kind of like how two parents with brown eyes can have a blue eyed child, Ant...pay more attention to biology class...cuz yer wrong....again
Excelsior?
72 - Chris Evans
Okay...so Tony, you take your personal experiences with animals over scientific studies?
73 - Matthew T. Sussman
Why can't more people listen to Tony G? Since he's never seen a gay animal, then surely nobody else has and it doesn't exist.
74 - SteveS
That is why people got married throughout time, societally speaking. It provided for the raising of children in a stable environment. The man went out and hunted the meat and protected the family (and tribe) in war, while the woman raised the children, farmed, and took care of the household.
and times change. We don't have to live like cavemen anymore. It's no longer necessary in our economic and technological times to live like cavemen. Biologically, we used to be covered in hair. That became no longer necessary for our survival so our hair has retreated (for most anyway). We do change and evolve. The woman's place is no longer in the kitchen. The man's no longer the one who has to hunt. People can choose to adhere to those values if they wish, but nobody should be forced to, wouldn't you agree?
Marriage and stable families is the foundation of a stable society. So-called "Gay Marriage" does not provide for either.
wrong, society has never given it the chance. I'm in a 20+ year relationship and raising a child. In spite of the fact that society makes it difficult for us to get insurance, medical treatment, legal protections and all that, we are still FAR more stable than many heterosexual marriages we know of.
Gay Marriage has never been a factor in any society until now. Why?
because society has never given it the chance and is mostly opposed to homosexuality out of fear and ignorance which manifest as disgust.
It brings nothing to society and it does destroy the special nature of marriage by bringing them emphasis away from stable family and children, the foundation of any stable society.
completely 100% wrong. We bring just as much to society as the next family. We have a child who's biologically mine, we reproduce too. My partner did a step parent adoption just like millions upon millions of heterosexual families. We give my daughter more stability than you could ever fathom. And as LEGAL TAXPAYERS we demand our full rights.
75 - Jet in Columbus
Barbara, I love you dear, but you really must do something about that stuttering problem!