Yes I am some kind of an atheist. I am a skeptic. I simply do not hear the seductive songs of any gods these days. I have become wonderfully deaf to the myriad siren voices of our pop-pantheon: Neo-Marxism, Political Correctitude-ism, Gender Feminism, DSMIV-ism, even Neo-Conservatism. I also no longer hear the grand deep baritone of that big old daddy God: the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
I am that kind of atheist who found that where there is God-talk, there are people with power lording that power over others they either pity or disdain. When I hear God-talk, I tend to hear more clearly these others, the unloved ones.
And there are always the others. They are the outsiders and the uninvited.
When I hear God-talk, I hear those who just don’t get it - I hear the other-minded, the other-sided, the other-others. I hear the bad people, the demonized people. I hear those who either must be helped with this god, or must be crushed with this god’s blessings. That is the kind of atheist I am. I don’t hear the call of these gods. I really am one of those men who just don’t get it. Anita Hill and N.O.W. - I just don’t get it one little bit, but I certainly do understand it.
Atheism is often misrepresented as a faith in the non-existence of God. That is not the sort of atheism I embrace. It is not a faith, and I am not a faithful atheist. Rather, I am an atheist who accepts that, as a human being, I have unavoidable and periodic mystical experiences of the infinitude of the universe and a periodic awesome feeling that I, as a smidgen among smidgens, somehow fit within this awesome infinitude. I am, I know, going to be all right regardless of how it all goes, including my own death and the death of all that I love. I also know and accept that all I love will, in time, be lost.
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— go to most recent comments1 - JP
You could also argue that we are incapable of defining "God", if it indeed exists; no human words could describe it, so any word we use is by definition incorrect. In a Gnostic sense, God is no thing that can be described; no thing we can describe is God, therefore God is no thing.
Your thesis is true--having a "mystical experience" does not prove there is God, or a spiritual connection between us. I believe there is anyway, even though I can't prove it; it's coincidences and similarities such as those in the Tao of Physics that intrigue me.
2 - Jim
I would argue that if you use words, those words whatever they are, are based on faith and believe in something, what you sense - even the words you use.
I think your words show a faith and belief that makes sense to me, for the most part.
I agree with you when you say,"...where ever there is God-talk, there are people with power lording that power over others they either pity or disdain." I think that is the case much of the time. That is the problem I have with Churches and one reason I don't go to Church.
The problem that we all have though, is that our knowledge and understanding of what is, is so limited. And I wonder, what don't we know? Look at the history of earlier generations of humans; I am sure they thought they knew so much. So much of what they 'knew' was wrong. That could be the case regarding what we 'know' when future generations look back at us.
Most of us can only believe and have faith in germs, black holes, the big bang, that planets are spheres, that there are atoms, quarks, that we evolved, that time can stand still at the speed of light. I have faith and belief in all these things because I have belief and faith in the results of science.
What does it matter to you if someone has faith or belief in God, Jesus, Santa Claus, whatever? Now organized religion, I agree, that is another matter.
Saying this, it took me fifty plus years to discover that I have faith in Jesus. It was a faith I acquired as a little kid and it guides me. My faith may be as silly as a belief in Santa Claus, it may be child like for me to believe.
So what?
My belief is mine alone. It is a mystical belief. It leads me where it leads me. So far it has lead me to live the most normal of lives.
3 - Arch Conservative
Sounds like you not lonly do you not belive in god but you also don't believe there needs to be a reason for our existence and you're happy with that?
Am I right?
Many atheists say they don't believe in God because they believe in science and that God can't be proven scientifically and the existence of a supreme being isn't logical. These same atheists subscribe to the truth of the Big Bang theory. I find this quite contradictory. They refuse to believe in God in any of the forms mankind has chosen to represent him/her/it etc.... but they have no problem believing that at one point nothing at all existed, not time, not matter, not space.... .. there was nothing.........and then from this nothingness was a hyge explosion that created the universe?
Both beliefs seem like "faith" to me.
While it is true that there may be some people of faith who engage in "god talk" and want to lord it over others the converse is also true. There are many who engage in "non-god talk" that look down upon and seek to enforce thier will upon people of faith.
4 - Jim
Yes, Arch Conservative I agree with you about the non-god talk too. With regard to the need for our existence, that is outside the realm of my knowledge and likely my ability to know.
My point here is that if you use words at all, you are expressing a faith and belief in something. I think that is what words are all about.
5 - Jim
Arch Conservative, I re-read your first sentence and I am a bit confused by it.
To clarify my belief as childish as it may be, it is a belief in Jesus, who represented himself as one aspect of God on earth (the son part of the father, son and the holy ghost) or God on Earth, I think.
I believe in God. That belief I don't think is totally childish as it is informed by my life experiences, some science, etc. I would call this belief more speculative, but none the less I believe it without a doubt. Why should I doubt it? Why should I doubt Jesus either?
6 - gonzo marx
ummm..the Jury is out as to how Yeshua(Jesus) portrayed himself...
most careful study woudl say he NEVER referred to himself as any kind of "god"..other than as part of the "divine" that resides within ALL humans
this is far different from the dogma of many christian sects, which does attribute divinity to the Annointed
Ben Franklin was quoted as saying ..."I do believe there was a Jesus, it is the Divinity of a man I question"
there are those who will point to a singular quote from the New Testament "the Kingdom of God is within you" and note that this is identical to the Teaching of gnostic chriostians and their choice fo scriptures
just sharing some Thoughts for pondering...
Excelsior!
7 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
So help me out here, Gonzo. You view Jesus (assuming evidence could be found for his existence) as a teacher, but not a "divinity", or a "person within a three headed divinity"?
Not looking for arguments, just curious and inquiring
8 - gonzo marx
you seem to have the Idea, Ruvy...
my personal gnosis is that no Man, and ALL Men are Divine...
Yeshua, Siddhartha, the Dalai Lama...and many others have pointed the Way....same as the 7 Taoist Immortals
"the Kingdom of Heaven is within you"
it is the spark of Life that links us in many ways (see Jung, or Joseph Campbell...for example)
in other words...i view Yeshua as another Enlightened Teacher, who tried to share this with others...
note, if you will, the very dichotomy of his accepted Teachings against those fo his cultural and religious environment...
a far difference between "an eye for an eye" as was accepted under Sanhedrin Law, and "turn the other cheek" as taught by Yeshua
in my studies...it has occured to me that it is possible Yeshua was influenced by Eastern philosophy...living on the Silk Road as he did...and this opened him up to other Ways of thinking than the much more narrow View fo his cultural Philosophy
in my Thought..it was against the Pharisees that he was trying to forment Revolt...not the Romans
example: "render unto Ceasar" as opposed to his actions against the "moneylenders" in the Temple
by comparing the various Coptic texts...or gnostic scriptures with those compiled by Iraneus and ratified at Nicea under Constantine...one sees a clear difference between a dogmatic organization, deliberately placing a "priest class" between Man and "god"....as opposed to teachings (the Gospels of Mary, (Coptic) Thomas, Judas Iscariot..the Hymn of the Pearl...etc) which are similar in many ways to Buddhist thought that Enlightenment is found within
oversimplified..i know..but hopefully my little screed opens some "Doors" for others
Excelsior!
9 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Thank you, Gonzo. This does clear up a lot of what you seem to say elsewhere.
Just a thought for you to bear in mind. You might wish to use a different analogy when comparing Jewish law to Christian concepts. "Eye for an eye" terminology always has referred to money damages in Judaism, not the physical vengeance implied in the words.
This was true in the days of the Sanhedrin and before as well.
10 - gonzo marx
glad to help Ruvy...
and i DO comprehend the difference..i am being colloquial for those not as familiar with the depth of material we are talking about here...
still, stoning and other forms of physical Vengance as part of a Justice system were part and parcel of Judaism in the time we talk of
a diametric opposition when compared to the "turn the other cheek" pacifism espoused by Yeshua
me?...i fall somewhere in between in that i think it is ethically required to Defend when appropriate....
but i digress
Excelsior!
11 - Timmy
Overthinkers, all of you. But you can't overthink God. It's faith you lack, clear and simple. You can rationalize your position all day long, but when the shit comes down you'll be left with a strong feeling of regret. Just have a beer and chill out.
12 - gonzo marx
no regret on my part, Timmy...
but you are correct in that it IS faith" that i don't have
i have no "faith" in ANY who claim to know the mind of "god"
whether it is the snake oil salesman with a collection plate...
or an ancient tribal Leader, attempting to keep his People whole...
or an early bishop trying to unify a "church" into a political entity
on and on...
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
13 - Jim
I'm old enough and from that 60's generation that was exposed to sooo many alternative beliefs... I have been a Zen Buddhist, loved Alan Watts, read Chaos Theory, The Tao of Physics, The Tao Te Ching, been through the New Age, rebirthing, past life regressions, channeling, etc, etc, etc.
But my conclusion after this journey is that faith is simple.
Gonzo, I am not saying that I am right and you are wrong. I am just saying that with all the different beliefs, ideas, and speculations that I have been exposed to in my life I find that my faith was established when I was a child and it has been there all along and after all these years I was able to figure that out.
I did not do this alone or in a vacumm. On the internet, I have been exposed to other Christians who have expressed the same core beliefs I share. When I read what they had to say, how they saw Christianity, I realized that the distance I thought I had from my personal faith in Jesus was an illusion. It is other people's interpretations that I was having problems with. It was the diversity of other peoples faith's and beliefs that created problems for me. I thought they were Christians and I wasn't because they went to Church and I didn't.
When I realized that my faith is valid as it is, it gave me strength.
It is a mystical idea - not logical. You have every right to see it as foolish. That doesn't change who I am. That doesn't change the child like reasons I believe in Jesus, that the book I read about him reported he said something like, 'Love is the greatest commandment', and that he said 'anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.'
As he was described in that book, he was a good guy. For me, I have yet to meet anyone or read or heard about anyone who I thought was better. The three buddhist priests who burned themselves up to protest the Vietnam war - they were inspired no doubt and I respect what they did to express themselves. Soldiers who sacrifice their lives for what they believe in, I respect that even when they are wrong. But when you take Jesus's story as a whole, he decided to make his sacrifice for all mankind, a sacrifice that had incredible symbolic importance, was part of an incredible history, and was a gift to me that reached deep into my heart and saved me because as a child I understood what as an adult is hard to understand.
14 - Carmine
JP and Jim,
You both are exactly on to the problem that I too am troubling over. There are two philosophers, who have set me on this path, and I am an expert in neither. The first is pseudo-Dionysius the second is Erigina. These are the guys who developed apophatic or negative theology. This is the idea that it is impossible to make any positive statement about God. Erigena is quite like Jim in that all words must issue from God in that God is the ultimate creator of all terms, which means any statement is already evidence of the Logos that allows for all words.
But my bigger concern is the development of so many new secular religions with their most innane idols. In particular the tripe that gushes from so many of the social sciences. My sense is that Humanities: Philosophy,Literature,Theology and History have been hopelessly seduced by the social so-called sciences. The fact of the matter is despite the death of God-spoken, the silliness of things like the MMPI should never be allowed to replace good theology. To expand this example, the MMPI uses hundreds of purely arbitrary questions and then with a wave of the hand an a religious faith that statistical averages will uncover truth from chaos, the Psycho-Priest gives a so-called scientific insight into one's soul. God has been replaced by faith in Rorschach, TAT, Carol Gilligan, junk social science of every stripe and pattern.
We all, it seems, have now become vulnerable at any moment to a spotaneous Politically Correct drive-by psycho-analysis. Duck! The newest Inquisition has arrived. Good-bye Torquamada, Hello Nancy Hopkins and Kim Gandy!
15 - Jim
Timmy, Fear was never much of a motivator for me. Love and sacrifice, that is what motivates my simple faith.
16 - Jim
Carmine, I don't know who Erigena is but I wasn't trying to say that I think all words issue from God.
What I am saying is that we must have faith and belief in our words and in language - that its use will communicate something, that other people will understand what we are trying to communicate, etc. If I didn't have that faith and belief then I would keep my mouth shut and I wouldn't bother typing.
17 - Jim
Since I have mentioned Zen Buddhism several times and I do not want to show any disrespect for that ancient, profound and beautiful religion, I wanted to share this link:
18 - gonzo marx
Jim..my Appreciation for your Thoughts and Words...truly...
we differ in our Views on some fundamental levels though...as you have easily observed, yet each of us seems quite content to allow the other thier Way
which is as it should Be...
i do not see your Faith as "foolish"..mere;y as your own...if you understand the Difference, we are halfway towards meaningful Communication...even if we disAgree
for instance, what you perceive, as an article of Faith...that Yeshua's "sacrifice" was for all of Mankind...i interpert as an Act exactly like those buddhist priests you cite
to me..Yeshua ben Miriam the Annointed (Jesus Christ) was the first recorded non-violent Revoloutionairy...not against the Romans..but against the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees
his Sacrifice was to prove the extent of his commitment towards the Ideal of persojal Responsibility and Enlightenment...NOT as a "scapegoat" to carry some unfounded burden of "sin" for Man...that particular canard is part of latter day dogma...the Myth after the Man
yet it IS a very powerful thing, and if it aids a person, then how can that be bad?
yet, when such dogma is used as a Weapon, as has been so often the case in history...how can that be good?
we do appear to Agree that one of the highest Achievements a man can attain is when he deliberately scarifices himself for another, or an Ideal, or in Defense...
would that more had your Understanding and Tolerance...
Excelsior!
19 - Jim
gonzo - We are on the same page.
20 - My Opinion, That's All
I grew up as a Christian. I can't imagine not believing in God. I guess I'm not very smart because I couldn't really follow everyone's posts. Of course, I'm no theologian. Atheism to me sounds fatal, like there's nothing to look foreword to. I kind of like having a guide for life.
21 - Jim
My opinion, I can understand that.
You see, a difference between you and me is that I was raised as an Atheist. I rebeled by going to Church for one year as a kid against my parents wishes. My father questioned my every belief and played devil's advocate. It was quite a journey for me to get back to a point where I had a simple faith.
22 - gonzo marx
to "My Opinion"...it's ok...
"there is more on heaven and earth than dreamt in your philosophy" Shakespeare
"atheism" is not fatal....
Life is...
just a Thought
Excelsior!
23 - Christopher Rose
The word atheist is itself a religious term used by faithists to include what they consider non-believers with their world view.
Just as there is no word for people who don't believe in astrology, we don't need a word to describe the majority and we have a word for the members of these cults: FAITHISTS!
*wanders off muttering to self*
;-)
24 - troll
Christopher - here we are again...what makes you believe that faithists are a minority - ?
troll
25 - Christopher Rose
Church attendance figures?
Whenever religion has come up in conversation with Spanish people, I've taken gentle advantage of the opportunity to ask them about the Catholic faith and the answers tend to vary between respect for cultural tradition amongst the more thoughtful to a vague idea about "just-in-case-it's-true" amongst the more pragmatic.
Many of these people go to church on Sundays and even take part in the particular rituals of their communities, like parading through the streets at Easter time carrying massive and heavy icons through the streets.
They actually compete as to who has the best icons and tributes and it all becomes wrapped up in local community values and civic pride.
We go along to watch along with loads of other spectators and all the streets are packed with both local and foreign tourists.
I've not met any real hard core believers or any of the members of Opus Dei yet, although they are definitely around.