The current issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association contains an article whose headline is:…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
The current issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association contains an article whose headline is:…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments9476 - Judy (US))
I read somewhere recently, though can't remember where, that women doctors often take birth control pills continuously to stop their periods. If its good enough for them, its certainly good enough for other women who wish to do this. And I'd bet the farm that these doctors don't have to go through invasive exams to get the pills.
9477 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Judy, the farm is safe.
I'm sure many female doctors choose not to have cancer screening, some have admitted it publicly and many/most would get the Pill with no doctor-made "requirements". I'd be surprised if many of our doctors were having 2 yearly pap tests and if they are, they're doctors to avoid at all costs.
Of course, most of these "non-compliant" (to use that charming phrase) doctors would still recommend/pressure or coerce their patients into these programs with no respect for informed consent/consent. To me it has always smacked of "those in the know" and the rest of us, female fodder for the screening industry.
We had the ex-wife of a doctor post here last year. Her husband advised her not to have well-woman exams, he arranged for her to self-test and to forget the rest of the exam. (I assume for HPV) I'll bet he's not as accommodating and honest with his female patients.
9478 - Kleigh (US)
I have read that must woman gyns admit they dont get pap smears. Thats very telling. also how many of them whould agree to leep or a cone bio that they push on woman?
9479 - Jacqui (Australia)
Hey guys, I heard on the news here that the TGA in Australia is handing out warnings about the Diane brand pill. Because 4 women have died in the last 25 years from blood clots. Yep, four of em. Don't get me wrong, I feel awful for their families. But, 4 over 25 years. I am waiting for the big push to come out now about how paps would have "saved" these women who obviously never had gyno checks. Not a word will be spoken about how a proper health check and history may have helped them though, I bet. It seems really weird that this has made the news now, do you think it has anything to do with the bigger numbers of outspoken, informed women about? A couple of years ago I would have laughed at myself and thought I was getting all "conspiracy theory", but now knowing the outright lies that pap screeners put out there, anything is possible.
9480 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Jacqui,
The profession is no doubt concerned about the greater awareness here of what's happening around the world. Pap testing is being wound back, population pap testing is likely to be scrapped in the Netherlands shortly and hrHPV primary testing introduced instead, they're already using the self-test device, the Delphi Screener. Now who would have guessed that American women might be able to buy the Pill over the counter, although if that happens, it's obviously years away.
All the while our program remains medieval and being fiercely protected by most...from doctors, women's groups, survivors to politicians.
Now the profession here were seriously against pharmacists being permitted to give women a small supply of the Pill until they could get in and see their doctor. Now anything that whittles down control of the herd would be a major concern...how do you push screening? (over-screening) Some doctors here still push breast and pelvic exams on women who just want the Pill.
On Margaret McCartney's blog one of the posts mentions that UK GPs may be offered financial incentives to get more women into breast screening. I think that's likely here too, they've used GPs to get women into cervical screening, so why not breast screening?
So the system is using our doctors to get to us....they'll fight anything that threatens that arrangement. (that's why i doubt we'll ever see the Delphi Screener here, unless it's locked behind a script....that needs to be provided by someone getting a target payment for pap testing...like Tampap very few women will get their hands on these products.
So we have a long list of people who rely on women being captured for their benefit...their profits. This is not about healthcare, IMO, it has never been about healthcare. How does outdated testing with no informed consent, over-screening, over-examining, over-diagnosis and over-treatment benefit women?
9481 - Mary (Aus)
How do they attribute the 4 deaths to the Diane pill? Kind of seems just like a coincidence to me. There seems to be such hysteria over the pill still. I can kill myself by ODing on paracetamol bought from the supermarket, and people have died from ODing by accident, but noone says that should be banned.(Apparantly it just got banned in France). To me the reason for the overreaction is because it's only for women.
I read that you're more likely to get a blood clot from being pregnant than being on the pill.
9482 - Mary (Aus)
I mean the Diane pill got banned in France not paracetamol.
9483 - Jacqui (Australia)
Wow! A great article right here on BlogCritics. Rethinking healthcare
I love the paragraph:
Even more alarming, an article authored by Gary Null, Caroly Dean, Martin Feldman, Debora Rasio, and Dorohy Smith describes in excruciating detail “how the modern American conventional medical system has bumbled its way to becoming the leading cause of death and injury in the United States.”
9484 - Jacqui (Australia)
Mary, I think the pap bean counters and the flat earth society get together and throw a whole heap of "outrageous lies to tell women" into a hat, and pull one out for the next press release. They probably have a door prize for the one that gets the most outrageous fallacy published as "fact".
9485 - Elizabeth (Aust)
The four deaths can "conveniently" be used to make the point, the Pill should remain on script. Quite right, Mary, every day people use off the shelf things to overdose or take them incorrectly...yet we don't have calls to lock these things away. The attitude though has always been....women can't be trusted, we might get confused, others have to supervise us and make decisions for us, just because we're women.
9486 - Torrance * Connecticut
No Judy (#9476) That Glamour magazine article's reporter interviewed a female gynecologist who said, and I quote, that she's "been period-free for twelve years". I swear, and I've spoken to countless doctors and women and was always told the ONLY way I could stop those monthly cycles was to have a hysterectomy and I begged for one and every doctor refused. Until I read that article, which was kicking around my former employer's office because he'd advertised one of his products in there and the magazine sent him an issue for the tearsheet, I NEVER heard The Pill could be taken continuously and I went through 22 straight years of pain and nonstop bleeding. I am furious. I bought pills online within a week of reading that article and have been period-free since September of 2000 and have never felt better in my life, after wasting more than two DECADES of my life in nonstop pain and misery and embarrassment.
9487 - Torrance * Connecticut
Jacqui (#9477), the four women who allegedly died while on Diane pills had to get them from their doctors and no doubt had exams and Pap crap forced upon them.
9488 - Kleigh (US)
Its about money. They want to do as many historectomys as possible.
9489 - Kleigh (US)
Also every time a woman goes to the doctor they ask the date of last period. im guesing they think woman are stupid and doctors want to keep woman haveing periods so they will know if they are prgnant or not.
9490 - Mary
People in Australia, there's a big feature today about screening tests and preventative health in the SMH. I don't know if it is online,but try to get the print version if you can. It lists all these doctors and what screening tests they wouldn;t have,including mammography and PSA tests but would you believe pap smears are left out again! One partof the artcile even recommends them. They quote Gilbbert Welch but not Margaret MaCartney. Why do pap smears get off scot free. Do you think because of the huge scale damage that it's already done that it's dynamite?
9491 - Elizabeth (Aust)
If women could get the pill OTC perhaps, more women might choose to stop their periods, or take up that option now and then, if they're going on holidays, hiking, long haul flying, athletic training etc
That may mean fewer women seeing the doctor for menstrual issues....it's interesting, whenever you hear outrage from the medical profession, it's usually about them, not us. I always sit back and wonder, "now why are they sooooo concerned"...when the govt. decided to make emergency supplies of the Pill available OTC we heard the real reason for their concern from a few places...several doctors (a couple very senior) all made similar public comments...they didn't just write a script, they might do a pelvic and/or breast exam and checked the woman was up to date with pap tests. Why? None of these things are clinical requirements for the Pill.
So some are still targeting this consult for excess, these exams are unnecessary and no longer recommended and cancer screening has nothing to do with the Pill. We wouldn't hear doctors up in arms over men getting Viagra on the net, "we do prostate exams and a genital check before prescribing"...they'd be promptly told they need to do a refresher course. By continuing to allow doctors to link excess and screening with the Pill...makes OTC access unlikely, acts as a deterrent for some who want the Pill and is a violation of our rights and risks our health. It also means some women remain convinced these things are necessary for the safe use of the Pill. Unnecessary exams and tests should never be encouraged or tolerated, excess is harmful and screening is our decision. These doctors should be challenged, not allowed to carry on...the lack of action to stop doctors linking excess and screening with the Pill says to me the system is content with this conduct...they'll "say" the Pill has been delinked from screening, but nothing has changed in many consult rooms around the country. The gesture of delinking is pointless unless it's enforced by the medical associations. These comments made clear this consult is still targeted by some/many doctors and they're happy to publicly state that's the case, and of course, target payments don't help either.
9492 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Yes, I think so Mary and also, because a very small number might be helped that seems to justify the damage....which has always been dismissed as minor anyway.
All we've ever heard is the benefits exceed the risks, pap tests save lives...but they don't say how likely it is you'll be helped or harmed.
I think Prof Baum and Dr McCartney are the only two who have ever presented pap testing as a choice, not something we must do. Angela Raffle came close saying if you're confident of your health and would be unhappy to have a colposcopy or biopsy, (acknowledging the high risk of over-detection) you might choose not to screen. (or similar words)
Gilbert Welch acknowledges over-detection and over-treatment, but like many doctors believes the issue is more about frequency of testing and reducing the risk of false positives and over-treatment, not testing itself. I know his books disappointed me, saying very little about pap testing.
The fact is when very few benefit and huge numbers end up over-treated some (if they were given the opportunity to make an informed decision) might choose not to screen. Even if a few are helped, that doesn't change a thing, but that seems to justify mandating screening for all women. Even with HPV primary testing...HPV+ women may still choose not to have pap tests, it's still a small risk.
It's the lack of respect for the individual woman that escapes them, because a small number are helped, probably less than 0.45%...doesn't mean everyone will be content to accept an invasive test with a 77% lifetime risk of even more...colposcopy, biopsies etc and we know these treatments can and do harm women.
I'll try and get my hands on a copy of the paper.
9493 - Elizabeth (Aust)
The other thing, it's not for them to say a procedure is minor, that's my call. Breast screening and over-diagnosis may mean unnecessary surgery, radiation and chemotherapy...but cone biopsies are IMO very nasty things and anything that involves freezing, cutting or burning of a very private part of our body is a big deal for many women. A major thing, nothing minor about it...and some women are left with horrible damage. Anxiety and fear are important considerations as well.
9494 - Jane (UK)
As Elizabeth has mentioned, I have just read on Dr McCartney's blog that my GP may in the future be paid an incentive to pressure me into having breast screening.
I wonder how long it will it will be before I get a phone call from the Practice Nurse asking me to come into the surgery for a little chat to discuss overcoming "my barriers to screening" . I received a similar phone call a while back about smear tests.
I have managed to dodge the Pap Police by avoiding health care. I intend to do the same with breast screening.
9495 - Alice (Australia)
Regarding that Diane pill and 4 women who died in the last 25 years from blood clots... I just can't comprehend how could anyone with logic and brain take 4 deaths of a relatively common cause (blood clots) over 25(!) years as a sound reason for banning the pill?
4 blood clot cases in 25 years out how-many-thousand women taking Diane! Isn't it just as many as in non-Diane-taking population? Sounds like dodgy statistics to me.
However, if the medical profession is so sure that the deaths were caused by Diane, it puts the doctors in even crappier situation. Because surely those 4 unfortunate women had Diane prescribed by their doctors. They went to see the doctors, perhaps have even been pressured into "required" pelvic exams and pap smears. And... Did it help anyone? Did it save those women?
So, the conclusion is:
Even if the medication is prescribed by a doctor, even if the patient is forced to see a doctor to get a certain pill, it does not help or benefit the patient. The only benefiting parties are the drug company (they sold the drug, even if it turns out to be harmful later) and the doctors (they got paid for consultations, "check-ups" and "tests").
The patients are always at loss:
- they waste their money and time on visits to doctors;
- they suffer through unnecessary exams and tests;
- they do not benefit from any of that and die.
Locking most relatively safe medications behind doctor's prescriptions is only good for doctors. How on Earth can anyone be saved from blood clot death by being forced to see a doctor for the Pill prescription, where the consultation will inevitably be focused on the women's vagina and pap smears?
Are they going to tell us now that pap smears can save women from blood clots???
9496 - OverItAll
Just an FYI: When you take ANY Hormonal shot, pill or ring, you do not have periods. The "bleeding" you're seeing is called "hormonal withdrawal bleeding" and occurs during "breakthrough bleeding" or when you get on the placebo pills (or take the ring out). It's basically your body freaking out going, "OMG!! No hormones!"
Also, in order to never bleed, you simply have to skip the "placebo" pills (the "sugar" pills you take to bleed, the 7 pills out of 28 in standard bc packs). Just know that you may have breakthrough bleeding (random bleeding).
Found out from my midwife today that I had a Vasa Previa AND Velamentous Cord Insertion (both unknown at time of birth and both should have killed my son). I also found out that I did NOT tear until the manual removal, the excessive bleeding I saw was from the Vasa Previa (a symptom of the condition). My midwife gave me what I'm calling the "Virgin Stitches"; she stitched me a bit too much (I'm dreading my first postpartum period since scared to pop a tampon in)! I'm healing super-slowly so I have yet to break-in my new vag (by my partner/hubby/boyfriend/whatever, not a speculum, now how many women can say THAT)!
9497 - Torrance * Connecticut
Elizabeth, regarding your comment #9493, perhaps Gilbert Welch et al haven't tackled the pap crap stuff is because you and I and the other ladies and gents on this board seem to be trying to research every angle because it's either directly affected us, or in the guys' cases, their wives and daughters. Unless a doctor has been negatively affected, I doubt he (or she) will delve into any research regarding the alarming rate of false positives or whatever because they believe the same hype we've been saturated with. I can recall precisely where I was standing, when I was talking on the phone, in 1989, with my former boyfriend, who IS a doctor, demanding to know, #1, why he wouldn't prescribe The Pill for me and he insisted an exam was "required". I was 22 years old and I stated: "Just what exactly is it that you're looking for, that when you FIND IT, you will then prescribe The Pill for me?" He blew me off by stating that this is "just what is done". That wasn't good enough for me then and some almost 24 years later, it isn't good for me NOW.
9498 - Kleigh (US)
Its a load of bs. I dont know who came up with the idea to use birth control to force an unrelated cancer screening esp a very invasive one on woman. it blows my mind in this day and age no one has changed it. They must not know what rape is. Also i hate that bc is all on the woman and thin to have a pap smear forced. if this isnt sexism i dont know what is.
9499 - Kleigh (US)
I mean sexist.
9500 - Kleigh (US)
And Torrance, did you tell your ex how violating most woman find this exam? I think it still being taught in mead school to force pap smers for birth control. It shows how outdated the Obgyn field is.
9501 - Mary
Well that would be right. They publish a letter to the paper by a man just repeating how the PSA is inaccurate and it causes harm, anxiety and unneceesary treatments- that was already mentioned in the original SMH article I was talking about yesterday.Got to hammer home how bad the PSA is and ignore pap smears.Sheeesh!
9502 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Interesting over the decades no one has noticed the pap test and mammograms are inaccurate and cause harm, anxiety and unnecessary treatments...great concern about PSA testing, but the risks are apparently worth it for women, even if very few benefit.
Talk about a glaring double standard. It does show that every effort must be made to stop programs being set up before they've been through randomized controlled trials and reviewed by someone independent, like the NCI.
I think men have been lucky to escape a formal program, but the current situation is unsatisfactory with some GPs recommending it, others not...and a lot of men left confused. There was also a bit in Australian Doctor recently...more men are suing GPs who haven't recommended prostate screening after being diagnosed with prostate cancer. It was mentioned to the men in my family, and most received an information sheet containing REAL information. The decision to screen or not was left up to them, how nice! My husband has decided not to screen, he feels the test is far too unreliable and is not convinced the benefits outweigh the risks. He'll respond to symptoms...this was accepted without argument by his GP. (again, how nice)
It's unhelpful to have cancer awareness and other groups screaming about prostate screening when most medical associations and specialists don't recommend it.
My BIL is having PSA testing, just watching his levels, but what do you do if those levels start to rise? He says he'll take advice from a urologist. So he presents with rising PSA levels, what does the urologist do? Watch and wait...for how long? (with anxiety and fear)
Maybe suggest a biopsy...what if that shows cancer, do you have surgery and remove the prostate? There is a lot of cancer in the prostate gland that will never progress, never worry the man or threaten his life. Prostate screening does lead to high levels of over-treatment. (like pap tests and mammograms)
It's the slippery slope that worries me, few have the strength to walk away and forget an "abnormal" reading...most will feel compelled to take the next step.
That's why we need to think about the consequences of screening tests BEFORE we have the test...am I prepared to accept the risk and consequences of an unnecessary biopsy, radiation, chemo or surgery? If the answer is no, then having the test may be a bad idea.
9503 - Torrance * Connecticut
Kleigh, I always flat-out told Rez that I would NEVER have ANYTHING done in a gynecological fashion and he pooh-poohed me and said: "Every woman sees a gynecologist." I staunchly said: "Not THIS woman!"
9504 - Kleigh (US)
thats the attitude that hate. That all woman see a gyn. That might be what mead doctors and students are taught to belive. but there brainwashed. and why the heck should woman go when they are healthy symptom free? Doctors used to be for sick people. until these screenilng test came on the seen. thats why they expect pap dates from woman over 21. I think they use that time to scold those who say they dont have a date or they havent tested in forever. I can say that there is nothing like being weak and sick and haveing to hear the word pap smear wich makes my skin crawl. thin to have to deal with a nurse being a B to me cuse i refuse to be violated.
9505 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Jane, I find that amazing, they'd actually call you, and i know some New Zealand women get a surprise home visit. The resources that go into this screening are limitless, with most clinics very busy, this is a priority? Talk about a misallocation of resources. Just goes to show what money will do and why we should not pay GPs to reach screening targets. Why not spend that time checking on elderly patients who haven't been well? I know the local private hospital does that....community care.
If they spent less time trying to strong arm women into testing that will benefit very few and harm large numbers and respected the right of individual women to real information and to accept or decline as they see fit, we'd be much better off.
I wonder how many women feel they can't see a doctor for anything to protect themselves from this crazy pressure to screen. Also, her expression makes clear the attitude, all women are expected to screen, "overcome your barriers"...what a cheek. Can I ask how you handled the call? Did you make a complaint? Have they now accepted you've opted out of testing? As far as possible, I know you can only opt out for 4-5 years and the letters start again....harassment. We shouldn't have to opt out when we didn't join the program to start with...and sending an unsolicited appointment is grossly inappropriate...it clearly shows the deep level of disrespect that exists in women's cancer screening. Rounding up the rogue members of the herd....
9506 - Jacqui (Australia)
Oh it's enough to make a thinking, strong woman want to set up an island where no (or hardly any) men are allowed, and doctors have to be, well, screened before they are allowed to work there. Pro pap, pelvic, screening for screenings sake attitude will be turned away. Only doctors like Joel Sherman etc are allowed to work there, and no sheep allowed either. I was looking at some sites last night, and I just didn't have the energy to deal with all of the "You MUST have a pap", "It's what women do", "Paps test for and cure bloody everything" etc etc so I just logged off, and went to bed and read a book instead. I am so glad we have this site and Sue's site to go to. Someone left a comment on Sue's site linking to a website about patient modesty and how they are trying to protect these rights etc. It was really good until I got to their pap smear page. I nearly had a stroke I was so angry, and left a comment for them on Sue's site. FFS, is there no one who will tell the f*cking truth to women?
9507 - Jane (UK)
Elizabeth,
I got the phone call about the smear test at approx 7pm one evening.
Nurse: "Hello is that Jane"? (note the use of my first name)
Me:"Yes"
Nurse: "I'm calling about your smear test"
Me: "Sorry"?
Nurse: "I'm calling to make your appointment for a smear test - you're overdue"
Me: "No thanks - I'm not overdue, I don't want one"
Nurse: "I can fit you in early morning before you go to work?"
Me: "No thanks"
Nurse: "I have got an appointment next week after 6 - is that any good for you"?
Me: "Err - not really - I don't want an appointment - thanks"
Nurse: "Would a lunchtime appointment be better for you?"
Me: "No. Thank. You"
Nurse: "Oh ok, I'll tell you what I can do. I'll book you a double appointment and you can come in and we can talk about why you are having such a problem with this. Come in and meet me. I can talk through what happens at an appointment and I can find out about why you don't want one and about some of your reasons, you know, like you're embarrassed or shy - don't worry we ALL feel like that. I want to help you to get over this. You'll be surprised how quick and easy it is. You'll feel so much better once its done"
Me: "NO"
Nurse: "Will you at least think about it?"
I have written to the surgery to ask them not to call me again. I don't expect them to take any notice. I know that GPs receive a QOF incentive payment for screening up to approx 70/80% of eligible women at least once every 5 years. There is too much money to be made. If you read comments on the Practice Nurse website, nurses telephone patients to ask if they smoke, to come in for BP and health checks, to come in to talk about long term contraception etc - all to tick boxes for QOF to reach targets and get payments.
Screening incentive payments must be stopped. So much money is being wasted by the NHS on chasing targets. The screening industry is huge. Think about many people are employed in labs, clinics and hospitals chasing a rare cancer. These resources could be spent elsewhere.
There is a new QOF incentive. GPs were paid £4 for a healthcare check consisting of BP, weight, blood tests for diabetes, cholesterol etc. This payment has now been increased to £18 per patient.
I await the call.
9508 - Jacqui (Australia)
Jane, you are soooooo much more polite than I would have been. Depending on how long ago this happened, I would be putting in a complaint with the relevant medical authority/board. Hex has some ripper form letter on this site that we are able to use, and I think Rob has put a couple of examples here too. I would not even contact the practice to advise them you are doing this. Just let the f*ckers deal with it when the complaint lobs on their desks. I am so proud of you for sticking to your guns, so many other women would have caved in. Go Jane!
9509 - Kleigh (US)
Jane, I do not see how UK woman put up with that. I whould have screemed at her, and told her to shove her smear test. How do they get away with harrasing woman. I know there has to be somone there who has complaned before?
9510 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Jacqui, I like the sound of that island.
Jane, you did well, I think quite a few women would have agreed to test, something they didn't want; that's so unfair. (to put it mildly) These people haven't a clue and take no responsibility for all the negatives that flow from testing, but grab any perceived benefits. Of course, they've probably never heard of over-treatment and lucky for them many women will never know they were over-treated - so they'll rarely (if ever) face an angry and injured woman pointing the finger at them. Of course, a woman bullied into testing might produce an "abnormal" result and then everyone rejoices that they finally got that silly woman to test and no doubt, saved her life...when all along it's a false positive. That's often enough to scare some women into regular testing, having been taught a valuable lesson, avoid pap tests at your peril. It's so frustrating...
A workmate has decided not to have any more pap tests, a decision made after her second false positive - she's one of the group that has had enough of pap testing. No more worry, fear, pain/discomfort, exposure/indignity, colposcopy, biopsies, she really doesn't care about cancer at this point, she just wants OUT. Her GP disagrees with her decision, but has left the subject alone. Recently she saw a new young doctor at the same Clinic who gave her a stern talking to...
"EXPERTS have gone over the pros and cons and know the benefits are there and that's why it's recommended, it saves lives, it's a terrible disease, are you saying you know more than these experts? I don't and I've studied medicine".
She stood her ground and refused to test...feeling like a stubborn child.
I suspect my workmate knows a lot more than her GP, (having now completed my suggested reading list) but she doesn't need to, she's decided she doesn't want to test, is happy to accept whatever risk that follows and that should be respected. As I said on Sue's site, doctors need to hear NO more often and understand some women will choose not to screen...and not see that as an opportunity to overcome this woman's "personal barrier to testing".
Jane, I think the attitude shown by that nurse was disgraceful...she expects all women to test, just as the Tax office expects us to lodge a tax return every year...she needs to be reminded that screening is not compulsory, a law, like taxation, we have every right to decline for any reason. We don't HAVE to screen. It's not her job to round up women...of course, that's the way women's cancer screening has always been presented to us and that needs to change. So pleased you kept saying NO. I guess her spiel has been tested many times and is usually successful.
I think we need to prepare ourselves, all of this is on the way if we adopt a call and recall system.
I think that nurse should be selling steak knives or vacuum cleaners, she's great with the manipulation and hard sell.
9511 - Mary
Unbelieveable Jane. I read out the exchange between you and the nurse to my husband. He could not believe it. If it was me I would be as passive agressive as possible to waste the nurse's and doctor's time as much as possible. I would say I was coming in and just keep not turning up and see how long it would take before they sacked me.I wish everyone did that then they would have a lot of empty appointments.
9512 - Jacqui (Australia)
I know Mary, I agree. Also, just put them on the phone to a chatty 4 year old or something. I'm more of a blow my rape whistle down the phone at them though, although I would like to think I would try less drastic methods first. (I know myself too well however. As soon as the words pap or screening were mentioned I'd be blowing that whistle like there's no tomorrow! :-) )
9513 - Jacqui (Australia)
Or I'd be "Scott, guess what they want to do, even though I have repeatedly told them I have made an informed decision not to screen. Get the tape recorder, quick, so I can record this harassment and we can go to the lawyer" in a voice loud enough for the dill pickle on the other end of the phone to hear.
Elizabeth, we could call the island "Pap Free Paradise", or "Ratbags Retreat", or "Balmy & Bean counter Free".......
Any sheep that sneak on and try to dictate to us would be tazered and shipped off of the island ASAP.
9514 - Jacqui (Australia)
I just came across this post. I commented on it ages ago, but it is still going. The last comment was put up 2 weeks ago. It is horrifying. All these women having pap smears and then miscarrying. They may be open to our comments since they have had nasty experiences with the stupid crap smear. miscarriage after a pap smear
9515 - Graeme NZ
Our surgery is now giving out pens with cervical screening marketing on them. I was in the other day to get my ears checked and our female GP handed me one to give to my wife! I cracked up but also said to my wife she should now be on the alert for a call from the nurse. By the way the pen writes well.
9516 - Jacqui (Australia)
Hi guys, I have written on this girls blog before, and she seems pretty interested in what we have to say over here. She did mention she was going to be writing another article about how traumatizing her first pap smear was. I just found it, and thought we could comment, as there are a couple of sheep handing out their usual craptacular advice. traumatic pap smear
9517 - Jacqui (Australia)
Wow Graeme, how did you refrain from shoving it straight in her eye? (The nurse's eye, not your wife's eye!)
9518 - ADM (Canada)
I cannot believe that phone call. I would have hung up on her. It is absolutely ridiculous the amount of money and time that is spent on screening for a rare cancer. It is staggering how unethical it all is especially paying Doctors to reach screening targets.
Anyone want to comment on this:
http://www.realage.com/anti-aging/regular-cancer-screenings-improve-awareness-and-statistics?eid=1010677955&memberid=16108454
9519 - Dee
Where can I buy a self-test kit in the USA? And then, where do I send it for the testing? I've googled this up and down, and found nothing. The Delphi Screener is in other countries it sounds like, but not the US, and I can't find a source who sells it online. Any information or tips appriciated!
Thanks
Dee
9520 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Dee, welcome.
I don't think the Delphi Screener is available in the States, it's not in Australia.
Countries that seriously over-screen with the pap test, like the States and Australia, have huge over-treatment rates...this is not evidence based testing. These programs IMO, benefit vested interests and their profits, not women. These countries will not welcome new developments, unless it adds to excess and boosts profits. (or doesn't affect profits) Like adding liquid pap testing, the HPV vaccine etc
If used properly HPV primary testing (or self-testing) should take 95% of women aged 30 to 60 out of pap testing. (and we shouldn't be testing women under 30)
Hardly surprising it was Dutch gynecologists who invented the Delphi Screener, the Netherlands and Finland have evidence based testing. These countries try to prevent this cancer without harming the masses and wasting scarce health resources. The Delphi Screener is available in the Netherlands, Singapore and Malaysia, but I'd contact them, they're rolling it out and you might find it closer to home. (check out the Delphi Bioscience site)
Even if improved testing and self-testing is introduced, unless it's accompanied by accurate information and easy access it makes little difference. We see in the States pap AND HPV tests are performed on women 30+, which just causes confusion and leads to the most over-investigation. (great for profits) Excess is harmful; the HPV test should stand alone.
In the UK women can use the self-test kit, Tampap, but are told they still need pap tests regardless of the result. This is nonsense, HPV negative women, most of us, are not at risk and cannot benefit from pap testing. These women should just be offered a chance to re-test for HPV in 5 or 10 years time. (depending on age)
Tampap was available in this country for a while, but few women managed to gain access, it was locked behind a GPs script. Our GPs are rewarded for reaching a pap testing target, not for prescribing self-test kits. Placing it on script protects pap testing and maintains control of women. It means women can be talked out of the test and into pap testing or simply denied access.
At the time those protecting the program and excess stated it "might" be unreliable (to scare women), "might confuse women" (rubbish) or "was unnecessary as we have a highly successful pap testing program". I disagree, our program is great for profits, but a lousy deal for women and could only be viewed as a success if you don't care about worrying and harming huge numbers of women.
Self-testing and real information gives women more control, something that has always been strongly resisted by the medical profession and others.
HPV and pap testing is not recommended in those under 30 in evidence based screening. Young women are simply told to watch for unusual and persistent symptoms. The fact is pap testing young women does not help, the same cases will occur whether you screen or not, but huge numbers will end up with false positives. HPV testing is not recommended in those under 30 as about 40% would test positive, transient and harmless infections, by age 30 the number drops to 5%...
So, good luck
I know a couple of women (and one on the way) who've used the Delphi Screener in Singapore, both were HPV-...one had to challenge her GP who told her she'd still need pap tests until age 70, nonsense, she's HPV- and no longer sexually active and can now confidently scrap all testing. So, access to the best information is very important, we're most unlikely to get that from the medical profession.
9521 - Dee
Thank you Elizabeth for that valuable information! I really wish we had it here in the States. It does seem manipulative to keep making us do paps, when this valuable new cheaper technology is avalible.
9522 - Elizabeth (Aust)
You're welcome Dee.
The argument is made that HPV testing is more expensive than pap testing, true, but if it's used properly it would be much cheaper in the long run...most women (95% of those aged 30 to 60) will be ruled out of pap testing when they test HPV-....these women will be offered re-testing to cover the possibility of a new infection every 5 to 10 years. So, false positive and over-treatment rates will plummet and IMO, we'd see fewer premature babies, c-sections, miscarriages and we'd probably save more lives by identifying the 5% at risk....and only about 5% of women would be offered a 5 yearly pap test.
It only becomes expensive when it's used inappropriately.
So used properly (the new Dutch program) it will be much cheaper in the long run and is a much better program for all women...those HPV+ and HPV-
I think more and more women will be heading to Singapore and the Netherlands to use the Delphi Screener. Why would any woman wish to endure a lifetime of unnecessary pap testing with the risk of over-treatment? More women will take matters into their own hands when all they're being offered is outdated testing and harmful excess. I think many women would prefer a self-test option, we're told women are "used" to invasive testing, IMO, that shows a very disrespectful attitude to our bodily privacy and dignity. Who have them the right to speak on our behalf?
9523 - Graeme NZ
Jacqui...I tried to leave the pen behind at the end of the consult but she handed it to me again and said "You need to take this because you dont get much for free these days". It will be interesting to see if there are any developments or calls etc. It seems they are in a round of trying to catch up with non compliers but I have to say I was shocked and maybe she is trying to enlist my help in getting my wife onboard. How little she knows.
9524 - Eline (Europe)
Graeme, great for you that you've got a good pen for free. Now, get yourself a piece of sandpaper and remove all of the propaganda on it...
9525 - Graeme NZ
That is a very good idea Eline. Now for some breaking news. I have a cop-y of the NZ sunday star times where on page 3 there is an article reporting that there is growing pressure for the pill to be over the counter in NZ! Have I died and gone to heaven? Please google it and see what you think.
I was also wondering if they could regulate it in such a way that it was for every woman in NZ except for my daughter?!! ....just joking...sort of!