The current issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association contains an article whose headline is:…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
The current issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association contains an article whose headline is:…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments9076 - kleigh us
presadent Obama said somthing about doctors will be reworded for keeping people well. insurance could dictate have screening. there is goigng to be push for well woman exams pap smears std screenings and domestic violance screening. i just dont know what to think i want to be able to see a doctor is i am sick but i dont want any of those screenings.
9077 - Elizabeth (Aust)
I hate to read these disturbing accounts, it makes we wonder how many women carry the memory of a disturbing exam. It's made worse because women have put their trust in these men, they've respected their professional standing and that's been used against them. We don't expect much from the man who lurks in the park at night, but it seems the wolf in sheep's clothing is a greater threat, we often don't see the predator within, until it's too late. Also, many women still believe the lines we've been fed for years, "they don't notice" or "they're professionals, just doing their job"...this is the fob off they've used for years, it started when we had no choice of doctor, almost all doctors were male, but now we have a choice. We can reasonably choose not to see male doctors, and no one has the right to comment or judge us.
I agree with you, Sue...seeing female doctors greatly reduces the risk of abuse, but we may still face coercion, pressure etc, so it's important to find a respectful doctor. I know some argue a female doctor may be a lesbian. I've never felt threatened by or feared a lesbian, but in my teens and 20s I had some frightening experiences with men. I avoided doctors and always saw them as men, as well as doctors. I saw the distress these exams caused to many of my University friends and you got “the works” if you wanted the Pill. It was absolutely OUT for me, I point blank refused to put myself through an assault (that’s the way I viewed it) just to get reliable contraception...I KNEW the exams were unnecessary. It was IMO, a boys club using their power to take advantage of young women. I've always disliked all things medical, but when I need to see a doctor, I see the female doctor of my choice, I just feel more comfortable with female doctors, nurses, medical technicians etc...my choice.
The unnecessary breast exam (the TUBE) has always been a problem, tacked onto a consult for a cold or pretty much anything, it's not quite that bad now, but some doctors still do them when you ask for the Pill or as part of a general check-up - it's unnecessary, there is no evidence of benefit, but it leads to excess biopsies.
I think our bodies have been up for grabs for so long boundaries simply don't exist or have become hazy. (conveniently for some doctors)
It's not "thorough" to check a woman's breasts unnecessarily; it says to me the doctor is suspect or incompetent. At the very least a doctor should ask you whether you want the exam, explain it's unnecessary, there is no evidence of benefit, only risk...you don't just do it or present it as helpful or necessary.
We have to establish boundaries, men don't have doctors going for their testicles when they enter the consult room and we should also be able to see doctors without opportunistic breast exams or pap tests. I don't know anyone who's been hounded in the same way about bowel or prostate screening...yet both of those cancers are far more likely.
Once you're being examined, a departure from what's expected takes you by surprise and it can be hard to react...is this really necessary? Should I say something? Some women go into shock, which IMO, also happens when we're assaulted in the workplace and elsewhere. Our reaction is sometimes judged, but no one knows for sure how they would react if they faced inappropriate conduct, especially if it's being passed off as healthcare.
Another reason it's safer to see female doctors - sometimes you can't be sure what might be required for your complaint…and I mean, clinically required. For example, a woman mentioned to me recently she was sorry she didn’t see a female specialist for an examination of her hip joints and pelvis…she said the exam was embarrassing and undignified.
Also, something clinically required can be done sensitively or not…some doctors listen to your heart without touching your bra, breasts or exposing your breasts or part thereof. Others lift the bra up exposing the underside of the breasts. Some women are even asked to remove their bra. (which is unnecessary and should be challenged) It’s interesting to see the variation…the cynic in me suspects the most exposure is reserved for the young and attractive.
New research from the Nordic Cochrane Institute:
"General health checks in adults for reducing morbidity and
mortality from disease" (Review) by
Krogsbøll LT, Jørgensen KJ, Grønhøj Larsen C, Gøtzsche PC
I haven't read through the entire article yet, but pap tests and mammograms were included in some trials. You'll find the article at their website.
The conclusion:
"General health checks did not reduce morbidity or mortality, neither overall nor for cardiovascular or cancer causes, although the number of new diagnoses was increased. Important harmful outcomes, such as the number of follow-up diagnostic procedures or short-term psychological effects, were often not studied or reported and many trials had methodological problems. With the large number of participants and deaths included, the long follow-up periods used, and considering that cardiovascular and cancer mortality were not reduced, general health checks are unlikely to be beneficial"
Very interesting...
9078 - Mary (uas)
I agree about lesbian doctors. They don't bother me either. It's the y chromosone I have a problem with. I hate to admit it but I just don't particularly trust male doctors.I feel it's discriminitory but at the same time, male doctors far outweigh female doctors in all sorts of misconduct cases so my bias is rooted in evidence. I suppose I started out being open minded and through life experience have come to have this preference for female doctors, so you can't blame me I think.
I agree about the breast exam. I read somewhere a woman saying when she has her heart listened to by a female doctor, she listens through her clothing on her back. When it was by a male doctor, he had to lift up her top and clumsily (on purpose) brush against her breasts.
9079 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Mary, I think trust is an issue for me too, the things that went on around me in my teens and 20s made a huge and negative impression on me. It made clear male doctors were not to be trusted and even more frightening, the system/profession facilitated and protected the abuse of our bodies and legal rights.
One example was making pap tests, pelvic and breast exams compulsory for the Pill...when they were completely unnecessary and even, harmful.
I know some women who endured these exams for years felt they were being punished for using the Pill, having sex before marriage, etc...judgement all round. I've also heard doctors and even some women say things like, "if you're happy to have sex, you shouldn't have a problem with your exams"...which is nothing short of warped and offensive thinking.
I've managed reasonably well by avoiding doctors as a young woman, never using the Pill and in later years, only seeing female doctors when I feel it's necessary. (and as you know I rejected cervical and breast cancer screening and clinical breast exams) Routine pelvic exams have never been an issue for me, it was an exam "required" when you asked for the Pill or often performed after a pap test, "this is the second part of the exam". I realized very quickly that asking for the Pill meant coercion to have pap testing, pelvic and breast exams. I saw a study a few years back that showed condom use and natural birth control methods were associated with un-screened women, they could "avoid" pap testing because they didn't need to see a doctor for contraception. Exactly...so they hoped they'd pick up these women opportunistically or when they needed pre-natal care.
It's always about capturing women, never about our health.
(of course, I know it's different in the States, Germany and in some other countries with the pressure to have annual well-woman fishing expedition)
9080 - Mary (uas)
Here's an inspiring site. It's all about famous trailblazing female doctors. I love the bio on the first American doctor:"Elizabeth Blackwell said she turned to medicine after a close friend who was dying suggested she would have been spared her worst suffering if her physician had been a woman."
Same old same old....
faceofmedicine
9081 - Elizabeth (Aust)
"Elizabeth Blackwell said she turned to medicine after a close friend who was dying suggested she would have been spared her worst suffering if her physician had been a woman."
That makes perfect sense to me, but I can't believe how nasty and judgmental some women can be and it seems like a lot of women are that way. (I hope I'm wrong)
I was just reading an article on male midwives and naturally some women are uncomfortable with them, not because they fear an assault, they just don't want the additional embarrassment when they should be concentrating on the delivery, they want a woman to deliver their child. Makes perfect sense to me.
BUT you always get the women who had a great male midwife and feel those who reject them are being silly. There seems to be this incredible inability to empathize with a woman who prefers to have a female birth partner.
If men want to be midwives and there are enough women happy to use them, fine, but my concern is many women (I assume) will reject them and then their services may be forced onto the most vulnerable woman on the floor. A young couple posted about their negative experience over on Dr Sherman's site...it upset them and ruined the birth for them.
Another woman posted she jumped through hoops to get her female doctor and was then faced with a male midwife!
If a male midwife was prepared to accept a refusal and leave, fine, but if they claim discrimination or try to pressure women, that sets off an alarm for me. A genuine and professional male midwife IMO, would understand that some women are not comfortable with his care. Some argue they've been trained the same way as the female midwives...so? That says they've missed the point completely. I note the Royal Women's also use that argument when they can't guarantee a female doctor. (in surgery, L&D and for emergencies)
A colleague made me laugh though...they were faced with a male midwife when they arrived at the hospital to have their 4th child, they declined his services, but my colleague enjoyed the male company watching the cricket in the visitors lounge. (the male midwife was having a quiet night) His wife said that's another reason why male midwives should not be in labour and delivery.
9082 - María
diane, sorry for the late response but I find it difficult to believe that doctors think patients requesting pain medications want to get high. Omg, if there's an extra reason to avoid male doctors there's one. Still, psychiatric medications are notorious for causing addiction, and shrinks push them. Interesting that patients aren't drug seekers when it comes to the meds they want to push. Or worse, force.
9083 - Bridget
I will ask the doctor to draw blood to see if I carry cancer cells when I go. She tried to give me a pap, but I could not relax and I was actually apologizing to her because she had to stop. I have no kids and have never had sex. The only time I have access to sex is when I read "50 Shades of Grey" or when I read about it in magazines or books. Women who are responsible enough to have a healthy sex life or promiscuous women should get these exams.
9084 - Bridget
I also remember the book and movie "My Sister's Keeper.". Anna Fitzgerald was an 11 year old girl who was conceived in a lab with her mom's egg and dad's sperm so she could be a genetic donor for her poor, cancer-stricken older sister Kate. Anna loved Kate and gave her blood, tissues, and other things she needed from her body. Anna's mom wanted her to give Kate a kidney and that was when Anna said, "No, it's my body" and she hired an attorney to gain medical emancipation from these intrusive, painful procedures she had to do starting from infancy. Anna wanted to be a cheerleader, play soccer, and eventually have children. She won her case and in the movie, Kate died because she was tired of what the evil cancer was doing to her family. In the book, Anna died in a car crash and they gave her kidney to Kate. My point is, an 11 year old girl and a woman who is 10-20 years older both have a say in what they want to do with their bodies and no one has any right to say otherwise unless the owner of the body is causing themselves harm.
9085 - Confidential (UK)
Hi Elizabeth, my wife and I will be having a child soon, here in the UK, under our National Health System.
After going through IVF in order for my wife to conceive, I'm pretty sick of male doctors investigating my wife's genitals and reproductive organs but my wife is just happy to be pregnant.
I feel that some of the male doctors have taken advantage & performed unecessary intimate procedures on my wife, some of them seemed to have the wrong intent (just a hunch), anyway I'm left feeling quite unsettled when a male doctor gets too close to my wife!
After IVF I became ill, emotionally ill, I was prescribed medication for anxiety and depression along with sleeping pills. It took me six months to recover and has affected my sex life probably permanently.
The only way that I feel that I can deal with the way the procedure has left me feeling is to campaign against male doctors that carry the speculum and have the authority over women to use it! I can't understand how it has been accepted, allowed by husbands and married couples? Am I crazy, over sensitive, posessive, controlling I asked myself? Not in any other area of my wife's daily living!
I am quite confused, traumatised in fact. Now we have the birth of our 1st child on the horizon we've been told that we cannot be guaranteed a female through labour! This is ruining the pregnancy for me, I'm in fear every time my wife goes for antinatial checkups etc.
Male doctors have ruined the most precious time of my life.
If only they understood or even cared.
9086 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Confidential, giving birth in the public system means you have less control and often your request for a female doctor falls on deaf ears or "can't be accommodated".
Most of my friends and colleagues gave birth in private hospitals and selected their own obstetrician. Several of my friends only use female doctors and they were able to arrange all-female care in the private system.
I can certainly understand why these exams might upset some men, they certainly upset many women. I understand though...some women really don't care, a male or female doctor/midwife/nurse is fine with them. Other women feel differently and that can be a real battle. If a couple feel the same way that helps a lot, a united front, but it can still be a minefield to be negotiated, especially with childbirth and surgery.
I think you should discuss the matter frankly with your wife. It's her decision, but I'd let her know how this experience is affecting you. My husband views my choice of doctor as my business, but understands why I choose to see female doctors and I don't have things like pap tests or breast exams, I'm just talking about general things like blood pressure and cholesterol checks.
If I ever needed an invasive exam, it would be a female doctor. (and hopefully, one I can select)
Like some other women, I don't feel comfortable with male doctors. The things that went on around me as a young woman, watching friends being taken advantage of (IMO) and left traumatized by male doctors affected me deeply. I suppose that I lost trust very early in my life. I think trust is an important part of a healthy relationship with your doctor.
I really think planning is vital if you want all-female care, nothing left to chance. The public system also carries other hazards, like medical students, so women need to stand up for themselves if they don't want an audience. (or someone there to stand up for their rights)
It's one of the reasons giving birth in the public system would have been out for me.
It's a shame a happy time has been turned into a distressing event for you, you're certainly not alone, I suspect many men and women feel the same way. At the end of the day though, if your wife doesn't care about male doctors, that's her choice and all you can do is discuss the matter with her.
9087 - Diane (US)
Maria, that's such a great point. The docs have no problem pushing anti-depressants which have dire health consequences (some people do need them but they are way overprescribed and doctors offer them WAY too easily) but if you need pain relief, oh, you must be a druggie and they can't help you.
With gender and doctors, I think everyone should have the right to ask for whatever gender they feel comfortable with. If I were having a child, I would not see myself being even remotely comfortable with a male midwife. I'd question motive there, the same way I'd question a male who went into OB/GYN as a specialty.
However, when I get massage therapy for my back pain, I don't really care what gender the therapist is. They're not doctors, though, so it's a different philosophy and MTs don't tend to have the same attitude problems as doctors. Likewise, I've had male PAs who have been wonderful, but again, they do not have the same arrogant, predatory attitude that doctors have - and frankly they are usually infinitely more competent.
9088 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Diane, it's interesting that we're often verbally attacked if we say something like, "I'd question motive there, the same way I'd question a male who went into OB/GYN as a specialty"...but if a man wanted to fit bras and swimwear, he'd be viewed suspiciously by most people or if he wanted to work in the ladies changing room at the local pool or do brazilian waxing. They could argue, "well, women see male doctors, so what's the difference?""I've been through the same training"...arguments used by some male nurses, technicians and others. As a society, we're not comfortable with men in certain places (or women for that matter) - why should medicine have a different and more casual standard?
Predators tend to find access to children or women, whatever they fancy, we find them in teaching, scout movements, the priesthood and yes, in medicine. These men (they are usually men) look for the perfect cover...there have even been problems with male orderlies. These men may not assault people, simply observing may be enough for them.
In the UK recently:
"a male nurse at one of Britain’s most prestigious Catholic boarding schools has been found hanged after he was accused of being a peeping tom.
Neil Riley, 54, had been arrested on suspicion of voyeurism after claims he set up hidden cameras in a bedroom to spy on female colleagues." It's alleged he was filming female teachers getting undressed in their bedrooms"...(in the Daily Mail for those interested in reading the whole story)
Peeping toms would find some hospital settings very accommodating. I know women often complain that their husbands are excluded during prep for a c-section, while male orderlies and theatre staff are present. I think it's a disgraceful way to treat someone, it's not that difficult to pull around a screen while someone is being scrubbed, shaved, draped or having a catheter inserted...they just don't care. When we have poor standards, IMO, it increases the likelihood of predatory conduct. It also comes down to treating people with some respect...our bodily privacy and dignity matters. We know that breaches of bodily privacy cause lasting psychological damage. I'm sure with a bit more care we could cure the body or deliver the baby without destroying or damaging the soul and spirit in the process.
9089 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Looking at a forum for male nurses, a couple of things jumped out at me. There are men I'd say sound balanced who clearly put the patient's wishes first and understand the need for sensitivity (cover the breasts with a hand towel, ask the patient if he can shave her etc) and that they might be refused, nothing personal, the woman simply doesn't feel comfortable. There seems to be a clear divide between this group and another more worrying group. The latter are quite abusive, into name-calling, aggressive, very sensitive and often state, "a nurse is a nurse" "it's discrimination" "outdated thinking"...this group worries me very much, I pray we never meet them or they'll receive some firm refusals.
For example: this in response to a question: is it appropriate for a male nurse to place ECG cables on the chest of a 15 year old girl? (he had decided to ask a female nurse to place the cables) Others raised bathing female patients...and other intimate procedures.
"Are you a severely jealous man, a well meaning son/spouse or just that clueless about why people become Nurses?
If it isn't perverted for a MALE Doctor to do a vaginal exam, or a FEMALE Doctor to check a mans prostate what do people have against a man bathing a woman. I do it all the time. I have been a nurse for quite a while, and I have bathed all ages of both men and Women,from teen to twentysomthing and beyond all the way up to a 106 year old woman the only thing different about these women was the fact that they were different ages, and No my Wife has not got a problem with me doing this. The only thing they have had in common (besides the obvious) is that they needed to have someone do it for them because they could not do it for themselves.
I see a patient and thats what its all about. This notion that men become nurses to get a cheep thrill is preposterous. if they got as far as the N-CLEX exam they were doing it for the proper reasons not the perverted ones"
Yet the same query does not enrage the nurses who put patient comfort first...mmmm
Not sure about that argument either, we have a dermatologist sitting in prison here...for sexually assaulting a number of his patients.
9090 - Diane (US)
That is SUCH a good point. There have been so many cases of sexual abuse at hospitals, and I've never seen one in which a female doctor/nurse/orderly was the predator. It was always male employees preying on patients. There was one recently I read about two male orderlies sexually abusing a mentally disabled woman in her bed. And there have been so many others. It's to the point where if you're under anesthesia at all, you are vulnerable.
The only place I've ever seen a hospital actually acknowledge the risks and take action about them was in a veterans' hospital, oddly enough. My Mum, who is a military veteran, was in for heart surgery. She was the only woman on the floor and the nurses, who were all female, took charge to make sure she would be okay. They gave her a private room with a locking door and her own shower and lavatory, also with a locking door - and they put her right next to the nurses' station, which was manned 24/7, so they could always watch and be sure that nobody entered her room.
Sadly, I think if a woman ever asked for those sorts of precautions in a regular hospital she'd be called paranoid, strange, uptight, etc.
9091 - Chrissy (UK)
I chose to have children, but my experiences with the medical profession have left me with long term psychological damage. It was, quite frankly, dehumanising and I would not wish my experiences on anyone. I literally became just a uterus, a birth canal and a perineum. I ended up with post natal depression, not because of becoming a new mum, but because I felt I had lost something of myself in the process. It felt as though because I was pregnant that they somehow ‘owned’ my body and there was nothing I could do about it because, after all, you have no option but to seek healthcare for the sake of your baby. Trying to fight the ‘system’ when you are scared and vulnerable is very hard and mostly fruitless. For many years I can honestly say that I hated being female.
I have not ‘got used’ to gynaecological exams and I never will. They are perverse and disgusting.
When I was younger I trusted the medical profession and believed what they told me. It took a lot of negative experiences to alter my trust in them.
I no longer trust them and will give them no more opportunities to humiliate and hurt me.
9092 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Chrissy, I wonder how many women hate being female, i think the number might be fairly high. I know some women fear the things they think go along with being female, they dread what they'll "have to face"...you read that a lot on American health forums, women fearing the first "pap and pelvic".
When women walk away from childbirth feeling hurt and humiliated, something is very wrong. We're supposed to feel grateful for modern medicine, but we certainly lost something when we moved away from midwife-managed maternity care. I've spoken to older women who gave birth at home or at bush nursing hospitals, it sounded like a gentle, caring and supportive environment...not one said she felt hurt, violated, degraded or humiliated after the delivery. An elderly family friend said the first thing her midwife did was stoke the open fire and make a pot of tea for them. Women caring for women....what a terrible loss.
9093 - Bridget
I know by looking at a person's blood doctors can figure off if they have an STD, diabetes, or anemia. People with cancer have the carcinoma cells in their blood stream as well. Hell, blood tests can figure out if you took home the wrong baby! The cases I have in mind are the switched at birth cases of Kimberly Mays and Arlena Twigg in 1989 and the 1995 case of Callie Johnson and Rebecca Chittum. Doctors weren't testing the vaginal discharge of these young girls in these cases. They just look at the blood for the answer they needed.
9094 - Mary (uas)
I think our postings are making an impact . The cancer council's site talks about all the stuff we've been going on about. I wonder if they were afraid of getting sued for putting out all that crap and thought they better start being honest.
9095 - Mary (uas)
They even admit there were no RCTs!
9096 - Mary (uas)
I'll give you people the link. They even mention HPV self sampling is as effective!!
We can now link this page to all the naysayers. Vindication everyone!cancercouncil
9097 - Mary (uas)
Me again. I am just so shocked at the info they put out. It even sounds like they have been quoting Elizabeth.
eg.
"Even minor abnormalities can cause anxiety for some women. Women who receive false negative results may experience delays in diagnosis or treatment. False negative results may also create a false sense of security that may cause warning symptoms to be ignored.
Abnormal test results can lead to more frequent testing and invasive diagnostic procedures. Risks associated with procedures such as colposcopy and cervical biopsy include vaginal bleeding, pain, infection and failure to diagnose (due to inadequate sampling)[10].
In addition to the inherent risks of surgical therapies, some treatments for cervical abnormalities are associated with adverse pregnancy outcomes including preterm delivery, low birthweight and perinatal death"
9098 - Sia
Mary it's great that the cancer council are now officially giving us the risk factors, I wonder if this is a follow on from Australian College for GPs advising against recommending prostate screening because of the associated risks. At least there's a bit more of a gender balance. Though they are still promoting that women should still be screened, and I'm not convinced that self screening for a rare cancer will lessen the over treatment and harm caused by it.
9099 - Graeme NZ
Mary thanks for that link. It is amazing they are so honest. I browsed through the section on prostate cancer and the implications of screening and will read thoroughly when I get a chance. On this matter we should not compare prostate cancer with cervical. They are 2 completely different types of cancer and for the majority of men old age gets them before the cancer. there is a parallel for women with so called breast lumps picked up by mammograms. 805 of men who get treatment are in some way affected by impotence and incontinence. For a man impotence is basically the end. Women may find that hard to understand. In the 1st world war men in the trenches often placed their helmet over their genitals instead of their head. I do understand why the medical profession has backed off over prostate screening as a formal program. Cervical screening needs to be changed in the way it is delivered.
For our last 2 children my wife had midwives. a different 1 for each birth. No internals were verr done. she was well treated by them and at the hospital theer was only the midwife.and yours truly in attendance. No other staff present. It was great. also during the pregnancy the midwife always visited my wife at our home. all in all a very good system but I can tell you doctors in nz are still furious that midwives took over pregnancy care. I assume government went for it because it was a cost cutting exercise? Midwives have been going for some years now and so far there are no measurable changes in mortality rates. We do have a couple of male midwives but why a man would get into this is beyond me. 1 male midwife here was struck off for handing out wrong medicines and such. he also did some other stuff that I do not recall. I have a lot of contact with local people in africa and I can tell you male midwives are common place in black african hospitals. I am not sure of the reason but suspect men get first crack at the jobs (no pun intended). It is still very patriarchal there.
9100 - Sue
You said it Graeme, it is VERY patriarchal in Canada as well. Conservative government is similar to the Romney way of thinking. In my province especially, drs fight to keep midwives out of the picture. Again, money, control and access to vaginas viciously protected at all costs. Government is on board with this way of thinking. I have heard there is a growing list of women on a wait list for access to midwives that are never produced. Women are catching on to the horror of hospital birth. Medicalized, harmful, cruel, humiliating, dehumanizing, and often leads to PTSD.
Birth in hospital often includes:
-being given medications/hormones that are most often unnecessary and harmful to mother's health and health of baby
-being put on display in degrading manner against woman's will
-catheterized against woman's wishes leading to chronic urinary tract infections
-cesarean section risk leading to a host of health issues
-"examined" unnecessarily
-risk of nosocomial infections
-psychological harm
Chrissy, I agree that the traumatic experience of giving birth in hospital is the real culprit behind postpartum depression.
9101 - kleigh us
watching woman give birth on tv shows like tlc,s a baby storie. the woman on her back feet up in stirups with doctors coming in with out asking shoving there hand inside the woman and her screeming in pain. if i was put thru that i know i whould feel raped. i do think the medical comunity knows that a woman will have more problems pushing in this postion so they make more money from woman taring and c sections when the woman cant get the baby out cause they have her on her back.
9102 - Sue
Kleigh yes it is a very unnatural position to give birth in. Gravity works against the woman rather than for her.
Women are expected to be fine with groups of onlookers watching them give birth. Imagine a woman in a restaurant being put on her back, naked, legs help up and apart, and being expected to be fine with strangers staring at her. Just because the woman is in a different setting does not change what is happening, or change what people are looking at. The very fact women are expected to be fine with this situation is traumatizing and dehumanizing in and of itself.
9103 - Sia
I googled ‘dignity in childbirth’, and a large number of results are forums where women in their first pregnancy where asking for advice on how to maintain dignity during labour, and the majority of 'mothers' felt obliged to tell these frightened women that they don't need it.
“Dignity - oh dear, that gets left at the door when you go into the labour ward...BUT...you really won't care when it comes down to it. All that matters is a healthy you and a healthy baby.”
“I'd say once you've had children you have a different attitude to people seeing your bits as it has happened and you've not only had perfect strangers looking at you, but also with their fingers in there too.”
“On the grand scheme of things it is the most dignified thing you will ever do and the delivery of your healthy baby should be all you focus on.”
It's not just entitled male doctors that are a threat to women’s bodily autonomy its also other women, who have been indoctrinated by constant (unnecessary) medical maintenance to their bodies and accepted that lose of dignity and privacy, and so, expect other women to conform and get over their childish belief that women have human rights too.
9104 - Confidential (UK)
Hi Elizabeth (Aust), I feel that you are probably empathetic towards Husbands and how terrible some of us feel after our Wives have had an intimate examinations, pap/smear tests or fertility treatment conducted by a male physicians/doctors.
As you know, through IVF procedures, I've become quite suspicious of male doctors and physicians are around my wife, especially when intimate procedures/examinations are insisted upon (but not always required in my opinion).
I have been given a link from a fellow campaigner that I'm sure will interest you along with others who post on this forum...
The link is in the form of a YouTube video where a pregnant prostitute admits that some of her clients are male doctors and male gynecologists that required her services for intercourse whilst she was 6 months pregnant!
Please do a YouTube search for: 'Pregnant Bunny - Tyra (part 1)'
To be honest, following the attitudes of my Wifes fertility doctors, I'm not in the slightest way shocked or surprised by the prostitute's confessions within the YouTube video clip.
9105 - Diane (US)
Sia, you're so right. Women have been so indoctrinated into beating the drum for annual "well woman" exams. Most of the social pressure outside the doctor's office comes from other women. It comes from mothers who take their young girls in for these exams so they "get used to it" - and from every single one who claims that paps saved their life when in fact they had harmless cell changes that would have gone away without treatment.
And with those comments from mothers about the lack of dignity in childbirth - it's sad, and telling, that none of them think that the mother's feelings and bodily autonomy are tied into her health.
9106 - kleigh us
I think the well woman exam idea came along when birth control came out. the two got tied together. i do think that doctors use this time to push woman who do not use or want to use birth control to go on the pill. i hear all the time gynos trying to shove the pill at woman that say they do not want to use it. they say it prevents female cancer. before the pill came out woman did not go for well woman exams when they were healthy. the idea came along when birth control was introduced. i think the feminist idea was so woman could have care free sex like men , woman whould be free from pregnancy and at the same time tested for stds and cervical cancer. i have a problem with these exams presented not as an option but as a requerment fall woman. i think the medical comunity needs to be put in there place when they think its okay to impose vagenal exams on all healthy woman.
9107 - kleigh us
and i think the question "when was your last pap smear" shows how the medical comunity sees woman. its a demand for a date. the last time i saw a gp the nurse used a computer and it whould not let him go to the next question with out filling in the number bloks for a date. i told him i hade never had one and the computer only esspted numbers for a date and whould not let him go to the next health question untill it was filled in.
9108 - Graeme NZ
so kleigh ....how did the GP manage to sort that out and move foward with the computer?
9109 - Susanne (USA)
Out of boredom, I sometimes read newspaper advice columns such as Dear Abby on the internet. One such column, Dear Prudence, comes out twice weekly, including an internet "live chat" advice session on Mondays. In today's chat, one woman wrote in to ask what to do regarding a situation with the surrogate who is carrying a baby for her and her husband.
Apparently, the woman's husband wanted to be present for their child's birth and is upset that the surrogate has declared only women will be allowed in the delivery room, thus leaving him (bio dad of the baby being born) out in the hall. I can understand the surrogate's wishes for privacy and modesty and at the same time understand the dad wanting to be present at his child's birth. I do think he should respect the surrogate's wishes and wait outside while she is laboring/giving birth, but I don't think he was wanting to be in the room out of perviness or anything like that.
What got me about this letter was how many people commenting on it blasted the woman's husband for being upset and called him a pervert, creep, etc., for wanting to be in the room for the birth, but seemed to have no problem with male OBGYNs who spend all day looking at and poking around women's private bits. Many of the commenters said the only males they'd want in the room with them would be their husband/boyfriend and the doctor. Funny how perfectly fine they all seemed to be with a male doctor being in the room and didn't think that would be at all horrible or pervy.
9110 - Mary (uas)
More vindication! I just got my online copy of Medical Observer. And here's the heading of an article. "Cervical cancer screening in women under 25 causes 'more harm than good".
9111 - Sue
Mary that is good news and it's a start. The article states:
"Cervical cancer in women under 25 is extremely rare and many abnormalities in women in this age group will clear up of their own accord.
Screening these women means that a high number of them will experience anxiety and undergo further investigations and possible treatments for no benefit, causing more harm than good,” Dr Falconer said."
This part is all good, BUT the article then goes on to state:
"Regular screening for women over 25 remained vital, he added."
This part irks me as it still is telling women what to do and still no mention of informed consent. Is the age of 25 some magical age where cervical cancer suddenly becomes rampant? Very annoying.
9112 - Mary (uas)
I have to admit I didn't really read it very carefully. I got too excited by the title.
9113 - Sue
Mary I did too! When are they just going to get over and leave our vaginas alone?!! They should all go see Pregnant Bunny at the call girl ranch. Or maybe we should start charging them money to look at our vaginas - and extra for letting them put fingers and objects in there!
9114 - Alice-AU
Thanks for the link! Looks like the Cancer Council has finally started revealing the truth. They finally admitted that "life-saving" Pap-smears are unreliable, that "recommended" 2-years screening intervals are too frequents, that "painless" cervical biopsies are painful, and that "simple treatments" are dangerous. They also finally admitted that HPV primary testing is way more reliable and helpful.
Finally! Scandinavians have known it all for years and stopped torturing and raping their women ages ago, while Australia have been trying to protect its failing pap-screening enterprise.
I'm sure these changes wouldn't happen if the fighters like many people here are didn't rise their concerns, questioned the current screening program and confronted the system.
9115 - kleigh us
Graeme, the nurse had to type in that i had not had a pap smear. i coulnt really see how he did it but some how he finally bypased the question. somthing else i just rememberd was the next question was " have you ever had a mamogram." at the time i was 24 and it seemed because i was over 21 i was expected to have had a pap smear and because i was under 40 not expected to have had a mamogram yet. the way the questions were asked its as if woman at a cetain age are suposed to be having screenings after the recomended age witch in the US is 21 now. theres no respect for concent when its just expected of woman to comply by a certain age. its really inhuman and disrespectfull esp when it involvs tools and hands in a womans vagina.
9116 - Yazzmyne
Sue, I had to laugh at your funny comment, lol!
I always thought that the official prostitutes who only spread to get paid, are the smarter prostitutes compared to the so called more 'dignified' women with a regular job who do the same thing basically at the gynecologist office, yet even pay to be on display, or worse, for being raped.
That's good news btw about the Cancer Council starting to reveal the truth. What you women here have done (posting the facts on all the pap forums) has paid off, so thank you for that!
I always knew these organizations and doctors partly behave the way they do, because too many women accept it and give the impression that's how they want to be treated, now that more of us show we aren't scared of our own bodies and confront them with the facts, they start to think a little more as well and can no longer be in denial about the injustice of it all, though it's probably rather that they are more scared of a mass rebellious outbreak and losing their reputation if their lies were revealed in public. Otherwise it's just both sides that were feeding each other's fears about women's bodies, resulting in control in the name of 'care'.
9117 - Mary (aus)
There's a conference on Preventing Overdiagnosis in September in the US.
overdiagnosis
9118 - Mary (aus)
They're looking for submissions. I think a representative (ie one of us ratbags) from unnecessary pap smears should go.
9119 - Graeme NZ
Kleigh I see what you mean but how did you end up with a male nurse? that would be very unsual in NZ.
9120 - kleigh us
Graeme, in America we have both male nurses and woman nurses. they are the ones that usaly come in the room first before the doctor. they take your blood presuer and other vitals. thin usaly a medical history some places fill out a sheet and some use a computer. then when they are done the te doctor comes in. On side note, i have never had a male nurse give me attitude for not haveing pap smers it was the female that bashed me when i was having cheast pain and iregular heartbeat. i could have died and all that nurse cared about was my female organs and me haveing paps. it was really discusting and stupid behaver.
9121 - EJ (USA)
I have to weigh in on the male vs female doctor and I can definatly say beyond a shadow of a doubt I have been humiliated/bullied by female doctors/nurse practitioners as well.
9122 - kleigh us
EJ, i know what you mean. I get the feeling when you confes to female nurses and doctors that you have not or do not get pap smears when they ask all woman for a date,some seem affended that you refuse to go along with this exam like they have. they are the ones that act blown away. i do think it has somthing to do with the idea that woman have no choise with this test. i mean we are talking about hands and tools inside a woman how in the world can the medical comunity think woman have no right to choise. And the question "when was your last pap smear" is a demand for a date it does not leave room for those who chose not to have this test. Also alot of these woman have been having paps since there teens and beleve the only reson they are healthy is bc of these tests. they fall out of there seat when a 24 year old confeses they dont have pap smears. woman seem to expect others to have this test like they do. that female nurse was respectfull till she found out i did not do paps then she started talking down to me as if i was a littel stupid girl the rest of the visit. i regret not reported her.
9123 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Test post, are we back on line?
9124 - Alice (Australia)
Elizabeth, it looks like we are. It must be a quiet time before Christmas: people are busy and there are not that many new posts. Speaking of which, I'd like to say:
Merry Christmas to everybody and a happy New Year. I wish you all the best!
May every passing day of the New year strengthen your wisdom and confidence, and bring you peace and cheer.
May it enrich you and your loved ones not only in wealth but in health, love and happiness.
May our mutual dream come true one day: to have a health care that it truly and only about the Heath and Care.
9125 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Alice, Sue and I have been unable to post over the last week or so and I suspect others are having a similar issue. I posted after my test post and was blocked again.
Anyway, in case this gets through...
Wishing everyone on this forum and at Blogcritics a very happy Christmas - see you all back here in 2013...if not before. Here's hoping 2013 sees more progress toward evidence based screening, some respect for informed consent and more informed women.