The current issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association contains an article whose headline is:…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
The current issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association contains an article whose headline is:…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments8776 - JeanArt
Just wanted to point out an article on the Kevin MD website titled "Did You Do Your Pap Prayer". Seemed the post was a little weird especially coming from a doctor. Some of you may want to visit and comment.
8777 - Chrissy (UK)
Yazzmyne, this ‘comic strip’ just about sums it all up. Everything that is wrong with the perverse attitudes that govern and control gynaecology and obstetrics.
Sexual innuendo, an appalling lack of respect and grotesque parodies of women do not belong in a professional journal belonging to a professional body of people.
And then, unsurprisingly we have SEGO’s typically arrogant and dismissive reaction to any objection to their ‘comic strip’. It was just a joke says the (male) president of the SEGO.
Mocking women during vulnerable and painful events is despicable, not funny. What a bunch of repulsive misogynists.
8778 - Sue
Elizabeth, I am planning to use your comment at some point in my new post(What some male Doctors do when women say "No") or perhaps in a new post:
{8674 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Oct 03, 2012 at 6:41 am
Doctors have always used coercion to force women into testing and some still persist even though they know it's unethical and also, if you'd ended up in hospital after leaving the surgery, his conduct in the consult room could land him in court and before the Medical Board. Doctors need to understand they do not have the right to treat women in this manner and that it can lead to serious consequences for the doctor and the patient. Pleased you're going to make a complaint Sarah, you were treated very poorly.}
I could perhaps write another post that is geared towards what women can do if they get a poor reaction from having said no to their dr. Your comment Elizabeth was very empowering, and reminds women they are having their health put at risk when drs behave this way.
I think many women have no idea that all cancer screening is in fact OPTIONAL, including cervical cancer and the pelvic exam that goes with it. Also, amongst those women who know the facts (myself included), it can be very difficult to just say "no". I did say no to my family dr, but it left such a bad taste in my mouth (and also without a family dr) that I am reluctant to do it again. So I took to lying instead, and now just have stopped going to drs.
For those who have health issues that need to be dealt with, however, it is not so easy to say "no" and to launch into an argument.
8779 - Sue
Chrissy, yes it is despicable and it is a real indication of their views towards women. To them it seems a "sport" of sorts. They are so secure in their power, and many find it amusing and enjoyable to place women in such positions.
8780 - Mary (aus)
And hot on the heels on the Spanish gyns we have the Italian gyns who conctocted a study based on a woman's attractiveness and endometriosis.
study
8781 - JeanArt
Elizabeth:
Thank you for posting on the Kevin MD piece, "Did You Do Your PAP Prayer." You say it all so well. I was quite pleased/surprised that the author (a doctor) was impressed by your information and seemed open to researching other countries PAP recommendations. Maybe it is a small sign but perhaps we are all helping take some steps in the right direction.
On the other hand, I saw an article in a health magazine that I get which was more of the same gyn oversell. It was actually a letter to a doctor wanting pointers on how to not be so anxious when she goes in for her YEARLY gyn checkup. Of course the doctor just spouted the usual: try to relax, find a doctor you are comfortable with, just remember that they have seen it all (I HATE that one!). But no effort whatsoever to educate readers on the fact that they are overscreening if they are going in every year. After all, even for those who choose to screen, the USPSTF has recommended that PAPs be done only every 3 years and possibly every 5 if the woman is in a long term relationship and has had previous normal results. And also current thinking is that pelvic exams are not recommended for asymptomatic women. So why are doctors still adhering to the "once a year" bull. They should be taking the opportunity to tell patients about new guidelines: let them know that yearly exams are not indicated unless there is a problem and by following new guidelines patients can possibly avoid over treatment, save the system money (which is so needed!) and keep them out of the doctor's office thus avoiding a lot of the anxiety, etc. I tried to see if there was a way to send the doctor or magazine a letter but I was unable to do so. It's still so depressing to know that so many women here in the U.S. are like sheep; they cannot or don't want to think and research for themselves. And it's also a crying shame that doctors don't adhere to guidelines or inform their patients about them.
8782 - Mary (aus)
I read that piece Jean Art. It was too bizzare for words. She's a doctor? Elizabeth writes something intelligent and well reseached and the only other poster makes no mention of that but says "Riveting..I could not stop reading!! So many interesting stories and knowledgable information! Thank you sharing Dr.Wible! No wonder so many are so inspired!" WTF??? What's wrong with people? No wonder we're treated like morons by doctors.
8783 - Sue
Oh Mary, well put :)
8784 - Sue
Mary, I read that comment again ". . . No wonder so many are so inspired!" and on second thought I realized it very well could have been written by a dr hoping to sell the article a bit more. Have you heard of "ghost writers"? Ghost writers are drs who are paid large sums of money to allow pharmaceutical companies to use their name on articles praising the benefits of certain medications. Paid very well to sell their "reputable" name and credentials. Google it and hopefully you will see some information on the subject. I would not be too surprised if that comment were written by a "ghost writer". We should perhaps give women a bit more credit. After all, no one expects, or is prepared for, such low levels of behavior coming from some of these drs.
8785 - Mary (aus)
You could be right Sue. I heard that a lot of the articles in medical journals are written by junior doctors and the senior doctors take all the credit.
8786 - Sue
Senior drs taking credit for work of junior drs is common practice Mary. In my previous comment I was referring to something much more sinister.
8787 - Elizabeth (Aust)
The cartoons are sickening and grossly inappropriate, but because these attitudes have always existed in medicine, this warped thinking has been normalized...it's amusing to see women in degrading and vulnerable poses and in distress. Note it wasn't that long ago that erotic shots of women were used in some medical schools, so women were presented in a sexual and alluring way, not in an anatomical/clinical way. Yet it was those outside the profession (in the main) who eventually forced change...hopefully, it no longer goes on. In the past I think female students felt they must identify with their male peers to find acceptance in the profession, hopefully, that's changed...to some degree anyway.
I know the Association of Women in Science took action in the 1970s to have these photos removed from several medical schools....that's not so long ago.
Sue, use whatever you like...spread the word far and wide and make me a happy woman. By the way, I was looking at your website yesterday and was very impressed, you're making a huge contribution, thank you. One of your posts made me feel quite ill and it's something many women will identify with...being cornered and captured in the consult room and the smug and satisfied look on the captor's face. I've heard many women over the years talk about that chilling look...one attractive friend hated being looked up and down as she entered the consult room and the doctor taking the first opportunity to raise pap tests or a breast exam. She was a strong woman, but felt small and afraid in that setting...she felt like a small lamb being stalked by a wolf...she WAS being stalked by a predator and the system provided the perfect vehicle for abuse by giving them the power to pressure women into the most invasive exam imaginable, a predator's dream, and they were well protected by the system...a complaint usually resulted in a woman being scolded for not doing what's best for her health, she was the problem, not the doctor. The system was using doctors to capture women, so they could hardly take action, it was basically, IMO, a conspiracy to trap women. No one saw a problem with this, not even the feminists and still today we have target payments and Papscreen leaning heavily on our doctors to practice opportunistic screening. How DARE they...
Research has shown opportunistic pap testing causes psychological damage as well as being highly unethical, but they simply don't give a damn.
Sue, I know many women feel powerless in the consult room. My advice is to choose your doctor very carefully, there are doctors who may suggest/recommend pap tests, but will not intimidate or coerce...find a doctor you can work with, someone who'll listen. It may not be easy, but it's worth the effort.
I've found being calm and firm is very effective, you could even withdraw in horror at the thought of the Aussie program...it's harmful and they know it. Women in the office have taken in articles on the current review of our program, the risks of over-screening and the futility of testing those under 30...in most cases the doctor has backed off and one even included the articles on the file. One young woman (just 20) included the doctor in her concerns about our program...and the end result, the GP agreed she should not test...she produced several of the articles that have appeared in the papers over the last 5 years. (provided by a concerned older woman...)
Note in each case it was the woman who decided she didn't want to test or not yet or not as often...there are more women looking for real information and informed women are more comfortable saying no to excess.
An informed woman changes the dynamics, it then becomes dangerous to force someone into testing, they are the very women who will complain and even sue you if they end up losing some healthy cervix and doctors know the risk of that happening is high...they rely on our ignorance and compliance. They know this program would stumble if informed women were the norm.
8788 - Sue
Thank you Elizabeth for your comments about my blog. It was due to finding your comments on various web sites that started the ball rolling for me. I was so grateful to be presented with real information that made sense, and I have not looked back. Or been on my back in the same way since:)
I have been fortunate in that I am healthy with no need for drs. Maybe I'm healthy because I don't go to drs - there's a thought. But if I did fall ill I will do as you suggest and choose carefully, with a great deal of research first. I will give a naturopath a try first as well. I have heard good things about them, and because we pay out of pocket they are much more likely to listen and comply with our needs and wants.
I appreciated hearing about your attractive friend and that leering up and down look - it makes my skin crawl. I have had drs come out to the waiting area, spot me and look me up and down. It always makes me cross my legs just a bit tighter and I start to feel sick. And yes, a complaint about sexual misconduct is a waste of time.
As you said in a previous post, we need to protect ourselves because no one is doing it for us. Here we have a task force recommending new guidelines to reduce the amount of harm and drs turning a blind eye. There is no way they want to let these fun times go without a fight. I had to laugh at the Kevin MD post, "Did You Do Your PAP Prayer?". How low can you sink, attempting to link the concepts of "good girl, religion, and prayer" together with regular pap tests. Good grief. I was happy to see your reply, and a bit surprised to see it accepted.
8789 - Sue
Oh, and yes those are great points regarding the informed woman. I agree they know the program would crumble if informed women were the norm. That is a very lovely thought.
8790 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Sue, that site is pretty good, all of my comments have been accepted, but the RH Reality Check site appear to have locked me out of commenting altogether or on threads about women's cancer screening. I tried to comment last night and was told I did not have permission to access that article...this was the norm even 5 years ago, things have improved a lot and more sites are accepting our comments. I think a few in the medical world are secretly pleased more women are getting to the facts and making a noise, others may think the game is over and change is inevitable or may be concerned about their involvement in the program. (with more informed women about) Who knows?...but with less censorship, more women will be reading about the risks and actual benefits of cancer screening and hearing that others have declined or adopted their own schedule, yes, we all have that right.
The shameful thing is...this is the first time many women have actually heard the facts and that they can reasonably refuse pap tests, mammograms, routine pelvic and breast exams etc...AND there is something called informed consent, that is not confined to men, it's our legal right as well. All steps in the right direction...they know they're losing control and that's why we're seeing more desperate measures to boost the falling screening rates. Here we have prime time TV ads for both pap testing and breast screening, the usual misinformation and disrespectful orders to do as we're told like good little girls...misinformation, no respect for the individual and informed consent. This is the way they've always treated women and that continues...it's disappointing that high profile women who should know better think this is an appropriate way to speak to women...if it happened in any other area, they'd be an outcry, but in health care we're still told what to do...and most can't "see" how outrageous it is to treat women in this way.
8791 - Yazzmyne
@ Mary,
that would be a good idea to create a wiki page for that sexist gynecologist (although I think those last 2 words are a pleonasm) who created those unfunny cartoons.
But it doesn't come to a surprise to me that this is the way they really think about their patients. I don't actually believe in forcing doctors to be considerate of women's feelings when they are at their most vulnerable as it is they who put women in these vulnerable positions in the first place, that alone is misogynistic enough, but most women seem to believe this is medically necessary.
Gynecology in itself is based on a sexist belief and even many of the gynecological conditions are caused by gynecologists. If women demand respect whilst they keep laying on their backs, spread-eagle (in the most exposing, vulnerable position) whilst they're not even sick, then they are fooling themselves. These cartoons are just an outlet for gynecologists to show their real opinion about women, because often in humor we can express the truth where this would otherwise not be acceptable.
@ Elizabeth,
I didn't know erotic shots of women were used in medical textbooks..but I do know that using medical pictures only isn't going to stop male gyns their lustful feelings and lust for power (although it probably used to be worse), otherwise they wouldn't feel attracted to enter the business in the first place, if you ask me. There's also a male gynecologist who ironically argues that men do not belong in this field. He said that he witnessed more than once a male dr ask another one into a surgery/exam room to lift the sheet and show the patient's breasts and sometimes the patient still being awake, pretending to not have noticed.. (this behavior from the patient also suggests how they probably are already used to this kind of treatment)
Sue,
"How low can you sink, attempting to link the concepts of "good girl, religion, and prayer" together with regular pap tests"
It happens a lot I noticed, just recently at my proboards forum, I had a troll coming over who claimed that the pelvic exam is a *humbling* experience! Her choice of words immediately made me think of something religious, such as in "Thou shall humble thyself for the almighty God", in this case, it's the 'Almighty Gynecologist' a woman ought to humble herself for. Yikes!
There are others who have previously equated modern medicine with religion, because it's mainly based on myths/belief and fear. I also see a lot of rituals in gynecology that can be compared or are a replacement of the rituals (often involving sacrifice) in the old patriarchal religions.
8792 - Rebecca (Australia)
Thanks a lot for this blog to whoever started it, and thanks everyone for the comments here. My story is not unique. Like many others, I ended up here after googling some information about medical lies, unnecessary pap smears and women's examinations. I was quite firm in my decision to say 'no' to smears, but many comments here made even more assured that I've done the right thing.
I haven't been to doctors since I was a baby, but recently I had to see a doctor because I needed a medical certificate for a pilot license. I didn't have much info about the local doctors, so I went to the most convenient place. I said that I only need a certificate when I made an appointment.
When I met the doctor, he went though a lengthy list of questions about my heath. Nothing exiting there: chicken pox 32 years ago and a flu 10 years ago, that's all I could say. No symptoms, no pain anywhere, nothing wrong. I feel just fine. After each my next "nope, never had that", the doctor looked more sour. I guess, he knew that I was not going to become a regular customer. And then this dumb question popped up. Yes, that one:
- When was your last pap smear?
I immediately asked back:
-- What does it have to do with my pilot license?
The answer was just as stupid as the original question:
- Nothing, but every woman must have pap smears.
-- Must? Says who?
- Everyone knows it. Pap smears are necessary to protect women from cervical cancer.
-- I don't care about cervical cancer. It's too rare to worry about. And then, pap smears don't "protect" from cervical cancer.
- It's not rare. That's why there is even a screening program for this cancer.
-- Sorry, the presence of a screening program is not a proof of prevalence of a particular cancer. I used to work in biostatistics and I am well familiar with the cancer numbers, so please, can we skip this question and get back to my certificate?
The doctor's face went completely sour, and he reluctantly returned his attention to the primary purpose of my visit.
After reading quite a few comments here, I see that I was lucky. That doctor didn't pressure me into pap screening any further. Perhaps, warning him that I know the real statistics gave me some advantage. Or, perhaps, being firm helped.
I got my certificate, but I left with some doubts. If our health care system is so concerned about "common" cancers, why nobody is so obsessed with regular comprehensive screening for skin cancer? The chance to get cervical cancer is 0.67% for Australians, and it only affects women, which halves the chance for the whole population, while our chances to get skin cancer is over 25%, and that affects both genders.
So why is the heath care system is not so eager to "save" us from the rampant skin cancer?
Perhaps, because in that case they will have to screen all genders and all ages. Is checking each and every skin spot with a dermatoscope on elderly males is not as exiting as poking genitals of young women? Too much time? Too expensive?
I think, the medical bureaucrats either have wrong priorities, or wrong agenda, or both. In either case, it's time for the system to stop calling itself "health care".
Its right name is "heath business". They use the same approach and tactics: hype, skewed facts, advertisement, money-making, marketing, manipulation and deception. Which one of these have anything to do with care?
8793 - JeanArt
Well said Rebecca. I live in the US and I have often laughed to myself (and occasionally aloud to others) about that term "health care". It has nothing to do with health or care. Here in the US it is also about money and making well people "patients" with the constant disease/fear mongering by the media and medical establishment. Just ridiculous how so many people buy into it like sheep.
There is currently an effort here to back peddle from the overscreening, overtreatment thinking that has prevailed for the last decade or more. But the damage has been done because now the scared public just thinks this is an effort to "ration" their health care and most want no part of it. They want to continue to have their yearly PAPs, mammograms yearly after age 40, PSAs for men over 50, etc. They seem to think the scientific evidence against this is somehow skewed. There is currently a piece on the MSNBC website under the Health tab about the new guidelines for PAP tests (most women can wait 5 years between tests and not go yearly). This recommendation is endorsed by the ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gyns). If they are willing to admit that the yearly bull has been overkill (when they would be the ones making money from that very same thing) then why are women still crying foul. Look at some of the comments. They are just trying to save money, play with our lives, etc. It is just so disheartening to see how brainwashed so many women are. Perhaps some of you may want to visit and post a comment. Keep up the good fight!
8794 - Anon
Pro pap personal experience.
8795 - Sue
Anon, regarding the "Pro pap personal experience" story - I got the feeling that it was indeed a story. A few things didn't add up. For example, the family history and the "need" for internal radiation. With surgeons quick to remove a healthy cervix, it seems astounding that a cervix with a large "tumor" would be left in place.
It brought to mind "ghost writers" and Elizabeth's warning of strong armed tactics. But not a bad try, nicely done really.
8796 - Sue
Of interest is the steadily increasing rate of premature births, especially in the U.S.
From Reuters: Of 500,000 premature births in 2010, the U.S. rate of 12 per 100 live births is more like that of a developing country, ranking 130th of 184 countries, tied with Somalia, Thailand, and Turkey, and only slightly better than Honduras and Timor.
Put this information together with the following:
[Based on solid evidence, regular screening with the Pap test leads to additional diagnostic procedures (e.g., colposcopy) and treatment for low-grade squamous intraepithelial lesions (LSIL), with long-term consequences for fertility and pregnancy. These harms are greatest for younger women, who have a higher prevalence of LSIL, lesions that often regress without treatment. Harms are also increased in younger women because they have a higher rate of false-positive results.
Magnitude of Effect: Additional diagnostic procedures were performed in 50% of women undergoing regular Pap testing. Approximately 5% were treated for LSIL. The number with impaired fertility and pregnancy complications is unknown.]
Note the last sentence; "The number with impaired fertility and pregnancy complications is unknown". Isn't that a kicker? In other words, they know a lot of women have been irreparably harmed but they don't really care to look into it further. (Canadian Cancer Institute)
Notice a link between over screening and harmful treatments, "pregnancy complications" and "increasing premature births and death rates"? But we are not likely to see further studies here, are we girls.
8797 - Mary (aus)
Exactly Sue re: that story. 5 women in one family with cervical cancer? What would be the odds of that? When I hear that the cancer affected women of a previous generation or two (her great aunt) I know it was a false positve. And let me ask this question. If these women really had cervical cancer why was the survival rate so good back then? If her great aunt had to have a hysterectomy, you would have to conclude that the cancer must have been quite invasive yet, these women miraculously survive. But with other cancers eg breast cancer women have mastectomies and they still die. Doesn't it seem to you that these women never really had cancer? Especially when we're talking decades ago and they didn't have all these adjunct treatments for cancer.
8798 - Sue
Rebecca,
"I think, the medical bureaucrats either have wrong priorities, or wrong agenda, or both. In either case, it's time for the system to stop calling itself "health care".
Its right name is "heath business". They use the same approach and tactics: hype, skewed facts, advertisement, money-making, marketing, manipulation and deception. Which one of these have anything to do with care?"
I love this comment you made, it deserved re-posting! And welcome Rebecca, I enjoyed your post immensely.
Mary, good question regarding five women with cervical cancer in one family - what exactly ARE the odds of that???
8799 - Elizabeth (Aust)
I've read many times there is no genetic link with cervical cancer, it's possible several members of a family might be high risk for some reason, they all smoke, they all have a compromised immune system, but now we know the FIRST and most important point is whether you're HPV negative or positive. It's possible multiple members might be HPV positive, but MOST unlikely they had invasive cervical cancer and also, VERY likely several members had a false positive and over-treatment. In my own family and circle several members have been "treated" but there is no doubt they were all over-treated and they have the normal biopsy results to prove it.
If you questioned these women you'd possibly find they started pap testing early, had it yearly...which makes false positives even more likely, almost a certainty. I know Dr De May put the lifetime risk of referral with annual pap testing at 95%...and it would certainly be higher than 77%...
I find it a give away when several members of a family or group of friends get "cervical cancer" in their teens and 20s...they're more likely to be beamed up by martians, but this is the age when pap testing carries the highest risk for false positives.
It's a cruel burden for women to carry around their whole lives...spreading the word that cc "runs in the family". I'm sure many women believe this is the case. It also says to me the medical profession has been less than honest with these women. I know some doctors are deliberately vague about over-treatment...the risk of legal action would increase if women were aware the medical profession and the program took a serious risk with their health.
If we stopped or reduced screening tomorrow or moved to hrHPV primary triage testing these "clusters" would disappear...fewer women would be "treated" under a Finnish type program and with HPV primary triage testing the only women being referred would be those HPV positive and with an abnormal pap test, something less than 5% of women aged 30 to 60. It would be nowhere near as common to know someone being referred after an "abnormal" pap test. It's not the cancer, but the testing that's creating these cc "clusters".
8800 - Elizabeth (Aust)
Yazzmyne, I hadn't thought of the link between religion and gynaecology, but yes, I see the similarities...myth/belief and fear, that's women's medicine right there in three words. Removing girlie shots doesn't change attitudes, but at least it's a reminder to them that others don't approve of their conduct, they have to be careful. It's their public image that would concern them, being "seen" to care and act professionally, especially now that women can choose a female doctor. It probably means some of them try harder to conceal their true feelings, they have an official position and then it all comes out behind closed doors and among friends. The students who used the girlie photos would now be the teachers, mentors, senior doctors etc
I've heard male doctors claim they are just doing their jobs, like a mechanic looking at cars all day, I'm not stupid enough to believe that...they notice, it's just a question of whether they do their job without stepping over the line or use it to take advantage. I think many women have been trained to believe male doctors don't notice, and of course, many need to believe that to cope with the exam. Our feelings have also been ridiculed, "don't be silly, you're nothing special"...so some feel they can't speak up and refuse male doctors.
The profession has always been good at isolating and ridiculing those who make life difficult for them.
I think it comes down to the individual, I know some women feel it's more "normal" to have a male gynaecologist examining them, others just don't care...they're comfortable with that level of exposure and male doctors, others have been desensitized after decades of exams or had to find their own way of coping...we're all different and that's my main gripe, the way the profession rolls us all together and tells us how we should feel and what we should do and accept. I know Dr Sherman says some older women are "used" to male doctors, including his wife (who has had around 40 pap tests)...I'd put these women into the category of those who had to find a way of coping...turning off mentally, distancing themselves from what was happening or normalizing it...these women had no choice of doctor and at a time when doctors were all-powerful Gods. Horrifying...although I know elderly women who see female doctors now and welcome the fact they finally have a choice.
Some women chose not to have issues sorted out because they didn't want to see a male doctor, they lived with discomfort for years. My Aunt knew a woman in the 1970s who had a prolapse for years, but refused to see a male doctor - this was probably caused by a traumatic forceps delivery. I've read pelvic organ prolapse later in life is now linked to muscle damage caused by forceps delivery. I also suspect there is a link to cone biopsies. There is no doubt in my mind that the rise in premature babies is partly due to so many women having damage to the cervix...shockingly, the research is not there, they don't want to know, but I've always wondered about miscarriages, infertility, high risk pregnancy, endometriosis, how much can be linked back to cone biopsies and other procedures?
Rebecca, welcome. Yes, that sounds right, everyone knows women MUST have pap tests, cancer screening is apparently elective for men, compulsory for women. That's the way this testing has always been presented and why many women don't believe they have a real choice about testing.
Our GPs are now chasing a fairly high screening target (70%) before they can collect their target payments and as a non-screener, you'd have triggered a bonus payment as well, a nice prize. The doctor soon discovered though that you were informed and not an easy catch, that's the key in my opinion...but they may let us know that they're unhappy a big fish got away with an impatient attitude, raising their voice, speaking rudely, frowning...it all means the same thing, the ambush didn't work....good for you...a pilot's license, fabulous.
8801 - Mary (aus)
Elizabeth, interestingly I have never heard a man, apart from a male doctor say it's no big deal seen one seen em all, women should get over it. It's only women who believe that. Men try to give insight into how the male mind works but many women refuse to believe it and argue that men who say these things are pervs or whatever. I trust these men are being honest.
8802 - Mary (aus)
I just watched a story about doctors getting sick and stressed. Guess what the doctor said about that? Doctors are just like everybody else. Oh except for when they see a naked young woman.
8803 - Sue
Elizabeth I agree it is shocking there is no research regarding damaged cervix's from harmful "treatments" and the rising rates of premature births and stillborn babies. But it is obvious there is a link between "pregnancy complications" and premature births, and we don't necessarily need more specific research to help us see the bigger picture.
I think this is in fact known by some - the numbers of women unable to bring a baby to full term is reaching a critical level, hence the reason for the task force stepping in to recommend less frequent pap smears.
A damaged cervix, with chunks missing, will not be able to do what nature intended it to do. A damaged cervix will not be able to hold a baby in place inside the womb effectively, or to bring a baby to full term. It is not just women who are being harmed from over screening and harmful procedures. Their future babies are also put at risk of being premature, or of being stillborn.
8804 - Yazzmyne
Elizabeth,
I think the category of women who turned themselves off mentally and became desensitized to pelvic exams as a means to cope is larger than those who really have no issues with it. Besides I doubt if the latter truly exists, because they would have to turn themselves off at least to some level in order to do such an unnatural thing.
I also know of those women who think it's more normal to be examined intimitaly by a male gynecologist. I frankly don't see any other reason then they don't or less mind to be sexually submissive towards a man instead of a woman..
There's also the argument that male gyns would be more gentle compared to female gyns doing a pelvic exam. I also doubt whether that's really true. It might also be that those type of women who think it is more "natural" to be sexually submissive towards a man instead of a woman are more relaxed with a male gyn and therefore mistakenly believe he is more gentle. Although I don't exclude that some female gyns could be more harsh in conducting pelvic exams because they may unconsciously vent out their anger on their patients from their own violated feelings when they are the patient.
I think those who claim that male doctors view any patient like a car, so called in an objective/scientific way is only partly true. They may view it like that (and even in that case, it is still wrong as our bodies can't be compared to a soul-less object like a car, as we inhabit our bodies and have feelings when being exposed and touched, especially in those areas where a gynecologist deems ownership over) but that doesn't mean they have no other non-scientific thoughts besides that.
Regarding premature babies, stillborns and so on, I agree there must be a significant increase because of harmful treatments like cone biopsies, LEEP,..that is something they rather not investigate into but something else they rather don't want to do more research on as they probably have already enough proof of in their practice is the link between doing pap smears on pregnant women and miscarriages.
I have posted about that on my forum:
Link between Pap Smears and miscarriage?
Doctors are also very much misleading women when they use words like 'removing some suspicious cells' of a woman's cervix. That sounds like nothing harmful is being done as it's just about some potentially bad *cells*, but it's a lot more than just cells, it's a piece of a very important organ that is being amputated that is never going to grow back anymore!
@Mary,
It's amazing how many women will view male doctors as incapable of thinking sexual thoughts and it's quite ridiculous to blame the honest ones for being 'perverts'. I think this is another example of women suffering from some form of Stockholm Syndrome.
8805 - Sue
Yazzmyne, brilliant posting on your site. And written almost two years ago. It is so upsetting, the number of women who do not want a pap smear when they are pregnant because they are worried about the harm to the fetus. Disturbing the mucous plug is not a good idea, and yet when a pap smear is taken they go in with a brush or paddle and dig around in the cervical opening - of course this is going to dislodge the mucous plug!! Also introduce bacteria/viruses, as well as a whole host of other issues not yet identified. I have not done an extensive search for studies, but I wonder if there ARE ANY studies that have been done on this?
I think we have uncovered a new virus here on these postings: the "GYNOVIRUS"
Symptoms include:
-Psychological harms ranging from mild to severe. Mild symptoms include uneasiness, loss of libido, inability to concentrate. More severe symptoms include phobias, psychosis, post-rape trauma and post traumatic stress disorder.
-Physiological harms include; damage to the cervix, miscarriage and premature babies, loss of healthy organs such as uterus, ovaries, and cervix; internal injuries due to cesarean birth
Prevention includes avoidance of medical settings and medical personnel. There is no vaccine yet available for this virus.
8806 - Sue
Yazzmyne, the link on your site to the following query is very telling, and you are most likely correct in that there is enough evidence gathered from each physician due to personal experience to negate the need for formal studies. More importantly, from studies that would become available to the public.
From the link on Yazzmyne's site:
"Hello all, I am very curious to know if anyone has any statistics
relating to the frequency that miscarriages occur following pap smears
taken with brushes, spatulas, brooms, etc. It had always been suggested
that by disturbing the mucus plug, the chance of miscarriage increased
greatly. As I am seeing this apparent correlation on an extremely large
number of women I became quite curious to know if any statistics were
actually available or if this had become fact in the past number of
years. I know of 4 women personally that miscarried within a week of
their prenatal exam, all had pap smears with brushes and they were
almost all at 3 months. The path reports simply identified the presence
of chorionic villi and fetal parts.
Thanks in advance for any replies,
Jay R. BSc. RT Cytology"
8807 - Chrissy (UK)
I was reading online about a woman’s rather awful experience of being unable to obtain BCP from her Gyn. She was incredibly upset about it and it was obvious that she felt completely violated and powerless against the doctor’s insistence that she (the doctor) would not prescribe the pills without the pelvic exam and pap. This woman did not want children and was desperate to prevent a pregnancy. It also became apparent that she had some history of sexual abuse, but did not go into any detail (understandably). The below extract is the ‘helpful’ reply from a doctor:
“Firstly I am sorry about your past history of sexual trauma. I couldn’t read every word in your posts but I think you alluded to having been either raped or molested sexually somewhere in there. This is obviously very difficult. If you haven’t gotten help with recovering from this please do. I hope you get well.
Secondly, your characterization of a simple gynaecologic examination in a doctor’s office as a ?nightmare?, ?perverted?, ?sick?, ?too horrible to describe?, ?humiliating?, and ?barbaric?, is simply abnormal. Your strange reaction is very likely related to your history of trauma. You may find that as you recover that your perceptions about these issues normalize as well.
I’m sure you can reach a mutually agreeable solution that both you and your doc is happy with. Seeking advice from nut cases online is probably not a good idea, though of course you have a right to it. What you cannot expect your gyn to do is to practice medicine the way you think it should be practiced. That’s ridiculous. You didn’t go to med school, she did.”
I cannot understand why these highly educated people have such an abysmal understanding of psychology.
What is normal and passé to them with regards to gynaecology is not normal and OK to many on the receiving end of it. If we are not OK with it or react in a way THEY consider to be disproportionate, they label us as abnormal or in need of psychiatric help. In this woman’s case, the trauma of the previous sexual abuse was compounded by the added violation of the repeated unwanted gyn exams for BCP and the unequal power balance between doctor and patient.
That they cannot understand that this is psychological abuse is astonishing.
Interesting also is the way she is admonished not to question the way her doctor practises medicine. Even though it is HER body the doctor is practising the medicine on? It’s ‘My way or the highway’ apparently.
By the way, the comment from the doctor about not seeking advice from ‘nutcases online’ was a reference to a sympathetic post from another woman who said that a pelvic exam and pap were not necessary for BCP.
“Trust me, I’m a doctor” is their mantra. No thanks.
8808 - Rebecca (Australia)
"What you cannot expect your gyn to do is to practice medicine the way you think it should be practiced. That's ridiculous. You didn't go to med school, the doctor did." --- That what I call ridiculous - to say thing like this! Though, it's a perfect example of the real nature of the health "care" we get from the doctors, a "holy" and "very special" profession, as they consider themselves.
It's outright sickening to see that someone thinks that graduating from a medical school grants the right to take over someone else's body while "practicing medicine", to ignore the patient's wishes, to show disrespect, to use force, to lie, blackmail, ambush, coerce and humiliate. How could we end up with all that if it was true that all medical students want nothing but sacrifice their lives to help the others? We ended up with that, because the majority becomes doctors for good money, big power and a special status. Those very few who became doctors to really help and heal are very hard to find. And once someone finds a doctor like that, they become a very happy patient.
Having a formal education in any area doesn't make anyone a creature with special powers and doesn't give the right to command and wreck the lives of others.
What if I have four degrees - in every area of human knowledge - bio-science, engineering, arts and psychology. And now I'm also a pilot. Should I be walking around and telling everyone how to live every moment of their lives just because whatever a person does or touches, has either biological, engineering, artistic or psychological basis? Should everyone else with a university degree do same in their area? According to that doctor, they can. Rubbish, isn't it?
8809 - Lynne (US)
I would LOVE to add my two cents to this topic.
I was born in the mid 1950's, in the USA. My mother had a male OB/GYN, which was the norm at the time. When the "PAP" became popular (its been around for many decades actually, but got a push after I was born), my mother gave birth to my sister.
Her older sisters who had babies two to three years earlier were starting to get the PAP "push" from their docs.
My mothers' doctor (again this is a male) told her that he believed this test was useless. For one thing he informed my mom (who in later years informed me) that the cervix goes through changes throughout the life of a human female, and if you "test" at certain times you will get an "abnormal".
Another thing he cautioned about was what Sue talked about was disturbing the mucous plug.
The reason that the topic of the mucous plug came up is that at the time women who had irregular periods were encouraged to have a "pap". My mom's doctor felt that just in cast this "irregular" was due to a pregnancy, it would be better to not disturb the cervix.
This was well before the brush method was introduced!
My two cents about paps and pregnancy! Thanks for listening.
8810 - Chrissy (UK)
Rebecca,
Yes exactly, it’s the entitlement they believe they have over our bodies that really irks me, just because they studied medicine. It’s obvious that they are comfortable with these exams because they have become desensitised by their training. I am convinced that this is where the problem begins " medical school.
The more they say that ‘we’ve seen it all’, ‘we do this every day’, ‘yours is nothing special’ ‘no need to be embarrassed’, ‘relax’, etc., the more I am walking in the opposite direction. All these platitudes mean is that THEY are perfectly OK with it and they really don’t give a sh*t if you aren’t.
And also, welcome to our growing band of renegades!
8811 - kleigh us
what i am wondering is how the heack pap smears became standard of care with prenatal care. like others have talked about it being abnormal causesing the pregnant woman to stress about cancer. and damaging the mucucs plug. i have heard alot of woman say the pap caused them to miscary. what is this test doing for healthy woman esp reking havic.
8812 - Mary (aus)
You're right Kleigh. Why should healthy young women have to be worried about cancer anyway at this time of a woman's life? It's supposed to be a happy time and doctors make mothers-to-be stress about the unlikely event of having cancer, besides risking their health with the test. If the health of a parent is so important why not test fathers-to-be for prostate cancer?
8813 - Sia
The Australian College of GP's are now recommending men not be screened for prostate cancer, because "Screening for prostate cancer ends up doing more harm than good." I wonder if they'll deign to re-examine the harm cervical screening does to women!
Prostate cancer tests 'more harm than good'
8814 - Mary (aus)
"the process is invasive and can lead to health problems" from Sia's link on prostate biopsies. Funny how nobody seems to think how invasive cervical screening is. They feel sorry for putting men through it but women are supposed be comfortable spreading our legs and getting probed. Which reminds me of reading somewhere of a woman complaining to her male doctor who was being rough while doing a pap smear and he replied something like "if this was happening outside a clinic you wouldn't be complaining"!
8815 - Mary (aus)
Chrissy you might like to point out on that forum that the online nutcase who mentioned that BCP can be prescibed without a pap is following WHO's guidelines.
8816 - Chrissy (UK)
Mary, unfortunately the thread is closed, but yes I will definately look for the WHO guidelines, so that I can quote directly from them the next time I come across anything similar.
The doctor forums are really quite vicious to any one (usually non-medics) expressing an opinion that differs from theirs. Perhaps this is the case because they can all post anonymously.
The only way to have any meaningful dialogue with them is to quote from peer reviewed papers or official medical guidelines. I really can't see them listening to anything else.
8817 - Yazzmyne
Sue,
yes that's another reason to avoid pap smears during pregnancy-and not only during pregnancy-because of the increased risk of becoming infected with other bacteries, viruses and the like through cross contamination from other patients as I have posted about before on my forum.
I'm also guessing that this is one of those things they rather not investigate into, because they would have to blame themselves and scare women away from them. It's more beneficial for doctors to downplay or downright ignore all risk factors that are caused by their own interventions.
I recall a story I read about a woman who went to hospital to give birth to her baby. They did a C-section on her (most probably due to the doctor's intervention that there wasn't enough 'progress' being made as it usually goes) and whilst operating she got infected with the MRSA virus, so the gyn decided to amputate her arms and legs. Imagine waking up like that with no limbs, when you only expected to have a baby. This woman was of course thankful to still be alive (despite she probably couldn't take care of her baby anymore) like most women who only believe doctors save their life (instead of unnecessarily endangering it in the first place). I highly doubt she would have been infected with MRSA had she stayed at home and probably not needed a C-section either since homebirth is safer than hospital birth.
Uhm yeah, the best way to fight off the gynovirus is to stay far away of all them lovely gynecologists!! 8/
Lynne,
would you like to tell your anecdote on my article about the link between pap smears and miscarriage or otherwise I can post it myself..as your story illustrates that doctors are well aware of this (at least the older generation was)!
@Chrissy,
if it's that difficult for a doctor to understand the strong triggering factors of a pelvic exam, especially in the case of a rape survivor and calling those who feel violated because of it 'nutcases' , have ZERO empathy and love to blame the victims that they cause, then that tells us these people are dangerous PSYCHOPATHS and should not have the right to practice medicine or be in any position in the healthcare field.
8818 - Lynne (US)
Yazzmyne - Sure! You can use my story if you would like to with my blessing!
8819 - Sue
Yazzmyne, the story of the woman waking up with no arms and legs made me ill. I like how you put so well the reason she got a C-section in the first was "most probably due to the doctor's intervention that there wasn't enough 'progress' being made as it usually goes". So basically, if she had stayed away from hospital she would have given birth, whole and intact.
The thought of a new mother waking up with no arms and legs, unable to care for her new baby, is truly sickening.
Unfortunately women with damaged cervix's due to unnecessary "treatments" sometimes do need intervention when giving birth. I wonder if this known by them as well? Another way to increase business? The GYNOVIRUS strikes again!
Lynne, I loved the look back into the past. Very revealing to see the way it was prior to when a more business type model of health "care" took over (as Rebecca said: "health business"). Thank you for sharing.
Chrissy, your story about the dr's comments really got me boiling. Unbelievable. Yazzmyne I agree that there is psychopathy amongst certain drs. One of the traits of a psychopath is an inability to empathize with or to understand the victim's point of view. I also agree that dangerous psychopaths should not have the right to practice medicine.
8820 - Sue
Yazzmyne, I forgot to add that cutting off a woman's limbs because she caught MRSA should have been a lawsuit. And the fact she was grateful is so disheartening, as it is when women say they have been "saved" from unnecessary treatments. The link on your site to women speaking about undergoing cone biopsies and then not being able to find out what the results showed is also sickening. Those women were given the cold shoulder and no biopsy results, but were just left bleeding and damaged.
8821 - Mary (aus)
Nothing irks me more than somebody with a below average IQ thinking they are doing some kind of community service by promoting unthinking compliance.Case in point this link. I posted a comment with a link to a credible source but it hasn't been published.That's just too much for their small brains to handle, that there's an alternative opinion.
clumpsofmascara
It's interesting that one poster mentions that she has a doctor in the family and he has said you don't need to go to the doctor until you're sexually active. I wonder if he says that to his other patients.
8822 - Katrina (UK)
The notion that you 'need' to have gyn exams once you're sexually active makes my blood run cold. What, once you've chosen to be intimate with someone you care for, you MUST make your genitals available to anyone with a medical certificate? Hell, no.
8823 - Yazzmyne
Thanks Lynne, I posted your comment @ my proboards forum.
Sue,
it's too easy for doctors to give all sorts of so called "life saving" arguments to justify their butcherings in court and they will usually be believed, as they are deemed 'the experts'..
@ Mary,
I don't want to even do it to myself to read through the comments as the article was bad enough on its own. I also think this is one of the worst things ever in this PAP happy culture, the belief that ALL women MUST have gyno exams. And the belief that those who aren't submitting to it like everybody else are 'childish' which makes them think they have the right to treat those women as children and browbeat them into having paps anyway.
What kind of modern day slavery is this anyway?
@ Katrina, well said!!
Reminds me of what the late Dr Mendelsohn had to say about the Church of Allopathy::
"I always laugh when someone from the American Medical Association or some other doctors’ organization claims that doctors have no special powers over people. After I finish laughing, I always ask how many people can tell you to take off your clothes and you’ll do it.
Because doctors are really the priests of the Church of Modern Medicine, most people don’t deny them their extra influence over our lives. After all, most doctors are honest, dedicated, intelligent, committed, healthy, educated, and capable, aren’t they? The doctor is the rock upon which Modern Medicine’s Church is built, isn’t he?
Not by a long shot. Doctors are only human " in the worst ways. You can’t assume your doctor is any of the nice things listed above, because doctors turn out to be dishonest, corrupt, unethical, sick, poorly educated, and downright stupid more often than the rest of society."
..
Of course, doctors do see their patients. But they don’t see them as people. The doctor-patient relationship is more like that between the master and the slave, since the doctor depends on the complete submission of the patient. In this kind of climate, ideas can hardly be interchanged with any hope of the doctor’s being affected. Professional detachment boils down to the doctor rendering the entire relationship devoid of human influences or values. Doctors rarely rub elbows with non-doctors in any other posture but the professional.
8824 - Mary (aus)
I agree Katrina. I'm just giving that doctor the benefit of the doubt that he may have been suggesting that a woman may want need to see a doctor for a contraceptive other than condoms.But even if he meant regular gyn exams, I think in the US today to say a woman doesn't need it until she's sexually active is proabably pretty radical, considering now they're trying to get them all in at 12-13.
8825 - Mary (aus)
Doctors rarely rub elbows with non-doctors in any other posture but the professional
Isn't that the truth. They don't want to go near the great unwashed outside their clinic.
One doctor commented on an online publication for doctors that he doesn't know how country doctors cope having to socialise with the normal people.