The current issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association contains an article whose headline is:
Cervical Cancer Screening Among Women Without a Cervix
How can this be?
In almost all hysterectomies, the cervix - which anatomically is part of the uterus - is removed along with the rest of the uterus.
Likewise, most hysterectomies are performed for benign disease, not cervical cancer.
In 1996, the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force stated that routine Pap smear screening is unnecessary for such women.
The JAMA study found that:
22 million U.S. women 18 and older have undergone hysterectomy (21% of that population)
In 1992 (before the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force recommendation) 68.5% of women who had undergone hysterctomy reported having a Pap smear in the previous 3 years
In 2002 (six years after the recommendation) 69.1% had a Pap smear during the same period
The authors of the study estimate that almost 10 million women - half of all women who have undergone hysterectomy - are being screened unnecessarily, as they are not at risk of cervical cancer.
Amazing to me.
If you're one of these 10 million women, perhaps you should ask your doctor why you continue to have Pap smears done.
It's intrusive, costly, and can only lead to misdiagnosis and inappropriate intervention.
Besides which, it's an example of your doctor's ignorance and general incompetence, not to mention fraudulent.
On a related subject, do you know the incidence of cervical cancer in nuns?
It's 0.
Which is why a girl who's not on the pill and is a virgin does not need to undergo a gynecological exam or Pap smear - ever.
I challenge any physician to show me a good reason why this isn't so.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - lonnie
I refuse to do paps at all I'm 33 and will never do them. It's bull.
2 - Nancy
Where did you get the incidence in nuns figure from? I'd be delighted never to have to get one again.
3 - Anonymous
This is a great blog, and consistent with what doctors have told me. I am a virgin in my late 20s, and do not bother with Paps or pelvic exams. I find them violating in concept, especially for people who have never had intercourse, and they have little value beyond cervical cancer screening. They can't reliably detect ANY other cancer, or even endometriosis.
I would encourage any woman who has been sexually active to have pap smears done on a schedule that is appropriate for her level of risk, which she can discuss with her doc. But virgins should be left out of gyn procedures entirely unless there is some urgent/life threatening medical need for them.
Most of the whole "yearly pelvic exam for all women" hype seems to be just that. It's really your lifestyle and individual risk factors that determine what tests and exams you need, and I would argue that almost no one needs a yearly pelvic exam. A pap is one thing, but there seems little to be gained from further intrusion on the female body.
4 - Anon
The reason that a virgin (and assumedly nuns) would not need Pap smears is because the test checks for cervical cancer caused by HPV, a sexually transmitted disease (which, like Herpes, does not 'go away'). It is next to impossible to catch HPV if one is never sexually active (virgin).
However, for those that are, Pap smears can be a life saver and should be performed on a regular basis (annually, if sexually active; every six months after an abnormal result).
5 - Padme
I'm 19 and I really seriously do not want one, I fear pain(last time, even though that wasn't "the test", pretty much hurt me and as much as I tried I couldn't relax to try and make it easier). I'm also freaked out about being exposed to a stranger (even if she is a female) that I only see but a few times a year when I fall ill...But becuase of the medical history on my Mom's side I have no choice. Now that ladies, is a cause for it, if your medical history has problems relating to it, even if you're a virgin I think it's a good idea (even though I despise saying this) to have one JUST AS A PROCAUTION...I'm cringing even as I write, I can not believe I just said this...Good luck to the rest of you, it does suck and it didn't help that I was told it would be done...MANY times...
6 - Suzy
Thank you for posting this. I too have decided to never have another pelvic exam. I've always felt that the demands for pelvic exams and pap tests are more for the purpose of humiliating women than for our health. I recall the abuse of having to have a pelvic exam in order to get birth control. It still makes me sick to think of it.
Google the horrifying history of J. Marion Sims, the 'father of modern gynecology' (he imprisoned women, repeatedly forced operations on them without anesthesia, and murdered the newborns with whom he had forcibly impregnated his prisoners, all 'in the name of research' and also take a look at a book called Public Privates: Performing Gynecology from Both Ends of the Speculum (Paperback)
by Terri Kapsalis.
7 - Michaela
I really believe women need to question the need for these tests.
Pelvic exams in asymptomatic women are unnecessary and can be harmful - yet some women have been brainwashed to believe annual pelvic exams are essential to their health.
Some women are even forced to have these exams or they don't get the Pill - cancer screening has nothing to do with birth control - this is an improper practice.
Also, how can you give informed consent when the exam is REQUIRED before you get the Pill?
Most professional medical associations now say these exams are unnecessary for birth control.
The Pap smear is an unreliable test for an uncommon cancer - with all the hype you'd imagine that cervical cancer is an epidemic - in fact, do some research and you'll be surprised to see only 1.7% of women would contract this cancer in an unscreened population. We are burning down a forest to get to a few high risk trees.
The pap smear is unreliable and throws up lots of false positives and some false negatives.
The false positives lead to unnecessary follow-up - often very invasive and unpleasant - colposcopy and biopsies - some women end up with permanent damage to the cervix.
Did you know 1000 women need to be screened for 15 years to save one woman from cervical cancer? (A Raffle's research)
Women who receive an abnormal smear result go through the anguish of thinking they have cancer. Did you know that most CIN 1 would resolve itself without any medical intervention at all?
However, once an abnormality appears on a smear, you're passed down the line...
Also, with the threat of litigation, more pathologists are being cautious and sending back more "abnormal" results - so more women are forced to have unnecessary follow-up procedures.
Sorry...I'm not buying into that madness - I have more respect for my body.
IMO the benefits of screening have been overstated and the risks barely mentioned...
The English screening authorities have just been forced to issue risk information for screening procedures, but it still falls short...
Screening is big business and makes lots of money for the medical and pathology industry.
IMO cervical screening has helped a few and harmed thousands.
I have also rejected mammograms after doing research and speaking to a couple of medical specialists. New evidence shows that regular mammograms may actually INCREASE your chances of getting breast cancer....the squeezing and bruising of the breast tissue. Also, slow growing ductal carcinoma is sometimes detected by screening - cancer that would probably never bother the woman - these women then face mastectomy & biopsies of this cancer can turn it into an aggressive cancer.
Also, there are concerns that cancer detected by a mammagram doesn't give you more time - you just know about the cancer for a longer period of time.
If you're interested - google Professor Michael Baum - he is a top UK breast cancer surgeon and can better explain the dangers of uncovering ductal cancer.
Prof Baum has been brave enough to speak truthfully about the real risks of cancer screening and has been savaged by the powerful screening lobby.
Angela Raffle has also published some interesting research on cervical cancer screening.
BTW annual breast exams are also of doubtful clinical value - it's better to self-exam and if you wish, see an expert once a year for a manual exam. (I've just started that practice - I'm 50 years old) I will not be having mammograms though....(I have been self-examining every month since I was 25 or so as well)
I'm saddened that women seem to have lost control of their bodies with all this invasive and unpleasant testing. Women are now afraid of their bodies and "fear" these exams and "fear" not having these exams.
I've heard many stories over the years of women being bullied into undignified and harmful procedures.
All women should be free to say NO...
Sadly, cancer screening has also been used by some male doctors to take advantage of female patients.
Women have been subjected to scare tactics, intimidation and bullying...it's totally unacceptable and has nothing to do with our health.
I really believe women have been treated like children - we've been given half the information about this potentially harmful testing - it shocks and angers me.
No women should ever feel pressured into agreeing to these tests - make your own decisions - if you decide to have the tests, make sure you see a Dr you trust who will treat you respectfully...
I understand in the States women face ANNUAL exams that include Pap smears, pelvic exams, rectal exams and breast exams - what a nightmare for them and so unnecessary.(& possibly harmful)
Knowledge really is power...Get reading and take control of your body and health!
8 - Michaela
If you decide to have Pap smears - do some reading...most now agree annual smears are a bad idea (unless you've had an abnormal smear)...some countries now say every 3 years, some 5 years, some 7 years.
Also, I suggest you do your own personal risk assessment - there are risk factors for all these cancers.
Your particular risk assessment should determine whether you have them at all or how often...
Cervical cancer is caused by exposure to HPV - virgins are most unlikely to have been exposed - also, if you & your partner were virgins when you got together, you are unlikely to have been exposed....
Even if the smear test were more reliable, I still wouldn't be having testing, as I doubt I've even been exposed to HPV....
Women are not given this information....
I also forgot to mention that in some countries GP's receive an incentive to recruit women into cancer screening. I believe this should stop - that it deters the doctors from providing risk information to their patients.
For the benefit of women having smear tests - a new blood test is on the way - it has been patented in the States - it's called the CSA Test (Cervical Specific Antigen) and it will be almost 100% reliable...a simple blood test.
I've heard pathologists and doctors might object to the test as it will mean the lucrative pap smear will be a thing of the past.
Lots of women will celebrate that day!
Write to your local members and push for this blood test if you'd like access...
9 - Michaela
Sorry I made a mistake - Dr Angela Raffles's research showed that a 1000 women need regular pap smears for 35 years (not 15 years) to save one woman from cervical cancer....
10 - Michaela
also, the number of women who'll get cervical cancer in an unscreened Aust population is not 1.7% but 1.58%....
11 - Jacki
I'm 24 years old, asexual, and a virgin. I got a pelvic exam 3 years ago when I had to be sent to the ER and it was a nightmare!
To make it worse, a male doctor did the test and I felt so humiliated. After the test, I felt like I was raped. Now the doctor's office keeps contacting me to get another test done and keep pressuring me to do so. No way to that. I will never get another PAP smear ever unless I choose to become sexually active which will not happen anytime soon.
12 - FP
Hi Jackie,
Are you a member of AVEN?
I'm 23, asexual, and been told I have an imperforate hymen and need surgery in order to have sexual intercourse, a pap smear, and use tampons. I don't want sex and I'm fine using pads. The only reason I'd have surgery is to have a pap smear, which I'm not sure is even necessary for me.
Reading these posts actually upsets me a little because I feel like I'm being bullied into surgery because of a test I don't believe I need, but, at the same time, the hype has me scared of getting cervical cancer!
The most recent time I went to the Gynecologist was to get a second opinion about needing surgery for a pap smear. The time before that was because I wanted to know why I was told when I was nine that I couldn't have sex or use tampons - now I know and that's great, but I wasn't happy with my most recent visit.
It does feel violating. I know it's a professional environment and I respect that, but I really do hate those exams.
I don't want to have surgery!! I'm happy and healthy, just fearful - help!
I'm very proud of all these women who are taking charge of their bodies. I don't want to "mess anything up" concerning my body. I have no major problems. I have a good, happy, healthy life.
I think I have my answer regarding the surgery. I just hope I don't get cervical cancer later in life and have to hear "I told you so."
I really would like the blood test to be available. I believe a large part of women's health is way too invasive - there should be better procedures for these things.
OH, if mammograms are harmful, what about Ultrasounds?
Thanks!
13 - FP
OH, I actually have a microperforate hymen. There IS a small opening, which is why I have regular, normal periods. I believe an imperforate hymen requires surgery because menstrual blood cannot flow out of the vagina.
14 - Michaela
Virgins are excluded from pap smear programs in Australia & the UK - in fact, I think it's only the States that recommend them for virgins. (and I understand that's changing)
Routine pelvic exams are NOT recommended in asymptomatic women and in fact, can be harmful.
I don't know any Australian or English woman who has routine pelvic exams. (or rectal exams!)
It saddens me that women are subjected to scare campaigns to force compliance....
I really urge all women to do their own reading -it's easy with the Internet AND ask questions.
It's really important to find a Dr who will listen, respect and accept your decisions.
Google the Article, "Why I'll never have another pap smear"...published in the Guardian newspaper.
Many Dr's fear speaking out about cancer screening, its real value and risks...
I admire Prof Baum and others who have been brave and concerned enough to tell us the truth.
I also, found an amazing article by a US pathologist recently that provided some figures on pap smears...
1% of US women will get cervical cancer - of these women, one third will have received one or more false negative pap smears, so screening may have disadvantaged them...ignoring symptoms after being reassured by the false negative - so late diagnosis. That leaves 0.66% of women who'll benefit from smears. At this point, you look at your personal risk profile...
Then you look at the false positive statistics...
The risk of a false positive (trauma, discomfort and possible harm) FAR exceeds the risk of cervical cancer.
IMO it comes down to one point, how much risk are you prepared to carry...
Will you risk unnecessary follow-up procedures to eliminate as much risk as possible...(some women and men prefer to have every Test and exam available regardless of the value or risks - their choice)
No one can answer those questions for you...or accept the risk on your behalf.
I think this research really helps put the risk of cervical cancer into perspective...
Once you have the facts, you can stop living in fear.
Don't put yourselves through more than is absolutely necessary...I suspect US women must live in constant fear of the next invasive procedure and have lots of unnecessary treatment for false positives...
I've read that with annual smears, 95% of women will have a colposcopy and biopsy in her lifetime with only a tiny number having any malignancy. Two yearly screening - almost 78%...
I haven't heard anything negative about ultrasounds - I don't trust the medical profession to tell me though...I'll be doing my own research...
I'll give you the link to the Article mentioned above when I get home...I'm currently working away from home.
15 - Yazzmyne
I'm happy to finally read some sensible comments about this subject, because the cancer scare tactics and the way women are being brainwashed and socially pressured (yes, especially in the US!) into these invasive, often useless exams is baffling and scary to me.
I've always known that gynecology is not as they claim, interested in taking care of women(as if we are so weak and fragile we need 'special care'), but primarly interested in money, control and power over women. And they seem to be very effective in achieving their goals, sadly enough.
I set up a yahoogroup, a few years ago to question socalled 'life-saving' procedures, like annual pelvic exams etc and offer information about better, alternative treatments and diagnostic methods for women's health.
There are already non-invasive, more accurate alternative tests, like the CSA blood test invented to check for HPV and other diseases, but they are still not being offered to women.
It's obvious that the system does NOT have the best of interest in women and I think it's time for women to take charge of their own bodies, gather information themselves and above all, simply listen to your instincts and intuition. If it doesn't feel right, it isn't right! Especially when it causes you severe negative emotions like humiliation and rape. And no it's not abnormal to feel this way, what is abnormal and inhumane is for doctors to continue with these procedures, despite the hazardous effect it often has on a woman (both emotionally and physically) and the proven inefficacy.
If you are looking for like-minded people and more info on alternative treatments and diagnosis methods.
16 - NuttyGirl
No you are NOT free to decline. I was forced into pap smears to get my birth control pills. FORCED.
It is stupid! Women have free choice to get an abortion but you MUST have a pap smear to get your birth control pills (that was 25 years ago) My doctor was a female. These are female doctors doing this not male doctors. I have found male doctors are more likely to not force you into a pap smear (except to get the pill). A few weeks ago I went to a new doctor for a dog bite on my finger.
I have not had a physical for 8 years and she suggested I should get one. I wanted to have a checkup but she acted like I was stupid and didn't like me questing her. I told her I had no desire for a pap smear and she was adament I have one.
She said they are still REQUIRED for birth control plls.
I told her I actually felt that this abnormal invasive procedures - pap smears - probably caused cell abnomalitys, greater access to the area for viruses and bacteria and actually may cause the cancer.
I am sure like all other cancers that since they have all these early detection and procedures the incidents keep going up, up, up. Like skin cancer the more we know the more we get it.
I may be nuts but that is what my own feelings tell me. If cervical cancer is caused by a virus transmitted to you then... a pap smear is more likely to cause cancer by inserting an abnomal object into you and by scraping your cells causing damage that otherwise would NEVER be done.
Both my sisters have had multiple false positives which then led to biopsies! more damage! The biopsies- were negative.... what is the deal? My older sister was told her false positives with pap smears were caused by condoms... and or allergies.
I really don't know anything - so I don't want to deter anyone who may be helped by a pap smear. This is just my strong feelings and intuition about them.
There is a lot they do not know. Why in the world are they sooooo pap smear happy? Big Money maker I guess.
Anyway, because I have this belief that pap smears could cause cell damage & cancer,, even if I am nuts, I have not had a physical for several years, because I can't find a doctor who will not do normal blood work and a regular physical without the pap smear.
I quit taking birth control pills for the same reason 20 years ago.
17 - NuttyGirl
I meant I cannot find a doctor who will do a checkup with blood work and urine analysis without a pap smear.
18 - LondonShaz
Ladies, I plucked up the courage and finally went for my first one yesterday and I found it intensly painful - I just couldn't relax. The female nurse was very nice, but she had to abandon it because I was in tears as she was scraping at my cervix. I wish she had just got the sample there and then because I don't know how I will find it in myself to go back to try again. It ruined my day off and I still feel ill and shaky today. I felt like I had been raped and I just cried and cried all over my husband when I got home.
The nurse said I'm very low risk because both my husband & I were virgins, I don't smoke, etc etc so maybe try again in a few months, but now I'm worrying about it. I feel a lot of comfort reading all your comments on here, because I can't believe what women have to go through all in the name of cancer prevention. I'm saving intense pain for when I give birth! Also, the nurse was asking if I find sex painful, and by saying that I did at first (not any more), but she got the wrong end of the stick and thought things were really bad for me. Well, it's a totally different sensation, and my husband & I are very happy!
19 - Lee
My husband and I were virgins and I don't have pap smears. The GP tried to push them onto me, but a senior gynaecologist (friend of the family) confirmed that cervical cancer is caused by HPV, which is a sexually transmitted disease - you have to catch it from someone...he said I was most unlikely to benefit from smears and very likely to have at least one colposcopy and biopsies for a false positive...as the Test is very unreliable.
So, the risks outweighed the benefits for me.
Even if I were higher risk, I'd have to give it serious thought before I'd agree to something so unpleasant, for such an uncommon cancer - especially when it's unreliable.
You should remember that doctors have a conflict of interest...they get paid incentives to reach high screening targets.
This is unethical IMO, as it deters the giving of honest and complete information.
You should not agree to a pap smear to get the Pill - report the Doctor to the AMA.
Cancer screening has nothing to do with birth control - this is just another "try on" to get to their target. The only things required for the Pill is a medical history and regular blood pressure check.
I was refused the Pill 20 years ago when I refused pap smears, but they can't get away with that anymore....
It's harder in the States - doctors have joined forces and ignored directives NOT to tie birth control with cancer screening.
Dr Hatcher who has a website, "Managing Contraception" once offered to assist a woman with this problem. It seems you must go higher to get around unethical medical behaviour. Poor US women are also pressured (apart from annual pap smears) to have pelvic, breast and rectal exams EVERY year as well - completely unnecessary in an asymptomatic woman - it's like womanhood is a disease!
Annual screening meand 95% of them will have a colposcopy and biopsies with only a tiny number having any malignancy.
I would hate to live with that awful exam forever looming - it all seems so unnecessary and harmful to healthy women.
20 - Sam
Actually, the General Medical Council in the UK has been forced to act to stop doctors behaving unethically chasing screening targets.
Doctors must now obtain informed consent...they must advise patients of their low chance of benefiting from the test (uncommon cancer) and the high chance of biopsies (false positives/unreliable test) and must accept and respect your decision.
In this country, we had doctors exerting serious pressure on women when they saw the doctor for unrelated matters (opportunistic screening), asking women to leave the practice if they refused, asking women to sign disclaimers, two doctors entering the room to pressure her, harassment on the phone and in writing...
Totally out of proportion to the small risk of this cancer and with NO regard for patient choice and informed consent.
I have been disgusted watching all of this unfold...
My Aunt refused smears - she has arthritis and found the test painful and it caused bleeding and irritation. She was harassed to the point of tears - they received a letter from our solicitor and the pressure stopped...
Hopefully, women will be more aware and feel more confident with the GMC on your side - this will only work though....if women actually refuse to be treated badly and report doctors doing the wrong thing.
I really think cervical screening has produced an ugly and unethical side of medical practice.
Patient health, care, rights and consideration - zero
Money and control - Yes, please!
21 - jwmccabe
I haven't had a ''smear'' test since I was 19, being in the US they required it for Birth Control. It was so invasive and the OBGYN was so dismissive that I had to remove the clamp myself when he went to take a phone call. The nurse came in to see me putting my jeans on and started laughing. She was a OBGYN(RN) so she just wrote me the BC prescription and showed where the OBGYN went to take a call. I took the clamp and threw it at him. I missed hitting him on purpose. Called him a ''jackass'' and told all 7 women in the waiting room what he did to me. They all left with me. One of the scariest and most eye opening experiences of my life. I live in UK now I just had to have a consultation at a pharmacy for my BC.
22 - Lila
American women need only look to other developed countries to see these annual gyn exams are totally unecessary in healthy women.
This is definitely about money, power, control and fear of litigation.
Look at other countries like Finland and the Netherlands....Finland has the lowest rate of cervical cancer in the world...yet they don't screen women under 30 and then only every 5 years. They also have the lowest biopsy rate.
Women are free to accept or decline testing, are given risk information and can access birth control without gyn exams or smears.
Breast exams are also NOT recommended for women under 40.
US women need to take action, refuse these tests, approach your politicians, form action groups.
I'd even consult a lawyer, if I were refused birth control without a gyn exam.
Only one woman needs to get a declaration from the Court to change the entire system for all women.
It is a basic human right that women have free access to birth control - putting unnecessary medical barriers in the way is a violation of those rights.
Look at the recommendations from the WHO and other medical associations...they do NOT support these exams and test for birth control.
I'm a US woman living in Finland.
I simply wouldn't accept this treatment.
It's a large part of the reason why we'll choose to stay in Finland - I'm marrying my Finnish fiancee next year.
My US female friends and family have the right to be treated with respect and dignity. These exams are deeply humiliating/degrading embarrassing and harmful.
I've never had these exams, but my US friends have all been harmed, either mentally or physically, by these exams.
I'm proud of the US, but will never understand how this was allowed to happen and why it's allowed to continue....
23 - Susanne
I don't understand why every time a woman goes to see a Dr., even if it is just her family Dr. for something such as sore throat, the subject of a gyn exam invariably comes up. It's upsetting to have that brought up when it's not even the reason you came there in the first place.
24 - Deborah
There is a great Article you might like to read, "Reaching targets in the national cervical screening program: are current practices unethical?" P. Foster & CM Anderson, J. Med. Ethics, 1998 June 24 (3) 151-157
Sadly, their concerns still hold - not much has changed since 1998...
I told my Dr many years ago that I would not be having pap smears. I have a close friend who is a pathologist, so had access to all the information withheld to women.
It was an easy decision.
My Dr couldn't really argue when she looked at my references...she simply said, "I'll mark your file Informed Patient"...what a shame not all women are respected enough to be given the information to make an informed decision.
Most of my friends have been harmed by this screening - none had cancer of course, all false positives.
One even needed to have her cervix stitched closed to carry her baby, after her cervix was left damaged from a biopsy.(no cancer found)
Every year we turn 1000's of healthy women into unhealthy women - all to save a handful of high risk women - it's utter madness and an abuse of women's rights and bodies.
This is about money, control and power - absolutely nothing to do with women's health.
25 - Caitlin West
I am really glad I came across this topic. I've had a few pap smears in the past when I was younger, starting when I was 16. All of them were really uncomfortable, even painful, and my doctors didn't seem to care. I even told my female doctor the last time I was in three years ago, and she ignored me and went on with the procedure. I ended up in tears afterward and couldn't walk right for a few days because I still felt pressure and slight pain in my nether regions from that ordeal. I haven't gone back since.
I have a dilemma, though, because my mom developed what the doctors said were pre-cancer cells on her cervix when I was very young. She got it taken care of no problem. But unlike me, my mother is married and sexually active, has been since she was my age (21), so I can see how she could develop it. She also developed breast cancer, which her mother actually died from, so I'm at high risk for that. I just worry that I'm at high risk for cervical cancer, as well. I wonder if maybe I have a hereditary tendency toward it like I'm sure I do to breast cancer. Since most, if not all, cervical cancers are caused by HPV, do any of you think I should worry about getting it in the future? Has anyone read anything about the genetics of cervical cancer? Anything would help.
I plan on going in for regular breast exams once I turn 25 (kind of a promise I made to myself) because I'm so high risk, but I would like to stay away from gynos and that cold, hard table if at all possible.
And since I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, have any of you heard of the HOPE program developed by Planned Parenthood? It allows anyone to get birth control without a pelvic exam. ANYONE. No ugly gyno visits or humiliating procedures. EVER. I've been taking advantage of this for the past year, and I couldn't be happier. The only downside is that the variety of pills they offer isn't as big, and they are a little more expensive than getting it through a regular clinic (about $30 for a one month package), but they do offer some good brands. I had to go off of Yasmin, my pill of choice, because they stopped carrying it, but now they've got me on Reclipsen and I'm just as happy with it. It doesn't control my acne as well, but nothing some good washing and toner won't fix.
Thanks to everyone who's contributd their knowledge and opinions on this very important matter. It makes me want to move to another country even more after reading all this. I look forward to reading any new responses posted. Peace and love.