"A person can be gay or a pedophile, but not both." A conversation with a psychologist friend.
"Suppose Mark Foley had been caught having sex with a dog. And it was a male dog, so he announced, 'Yes, I'm gay.' Would people go, 'Oh, well that figures?' No! They'd go 'What the hell does that have to do with it? You were fucking a dog!' And that's really what should be happening here."…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Chris2048
Why? Is a blog so inferior?
27 - Michael J. West
Inferior to conducting research and preparing articles and presentations for international conferences? Um, yeah.
28 - Michael J. West
Richard, for one thing, I didn't make any connection between pedophiles and bisexuals. For crying out loud, if a pedophile who likes boys is not homosexual, why would a pedophile who likes boys AND girls be bisexual?
29 - Chris2048
And the two are mutually exclusive?
30 - Michael J. West
What two? Research and blog-commenting? I suppose if you're discussing this with fellow psychologists, they can be correlated...
31 - Richard Longhurst
What about furries? Are there gay furries? What about foot fetishists?
32 - BJP
You wrote: "There's tons of really solid research on this"
Can you get some references then? (Say, to published scholarly articles, maybe from your friend the doc.) If not, then I'm afraid I'll have to remain skeptical and consider it hearsay, as much as I might like to believe it.
(Did some quick googling ... maybe there's some supporting research here.)
33 - Dave Nalle
Nice shot at misrepresenting me up there in #1, Bliffy. As I've already told you a number of times the problem with Foley isn't that he's gay, it's that he's living a deceptive lifestyle. It would be just as bad if he were a secret polygamist or a drug user. It's the keeping secrets and trying to control those about him for protection which made this problem, not his sexual orientation.
Dave
34 - GOP Gay Pedophile
WOW! What a load of crap this is.
Of course there is such a thing as gay pedophiles. Go to any gay website and you'll see tons of photos of young boys and tons of porn with young boys. This is pedophilia.
Stop spreading your ignorance around. You look like a fool.
35 - zingzing
why are so many gay pedophiles married to women? god, they must be confused.
36 - Michael J. West
BJP - Am doing exactly that, even as we speak. Starting with the Doc and working outward from there. Your skepticism is perfectly fair given the circumstances, so yes, I am looking to source Doc's arguments.
Richard: I understand your skepticism, too, although (1) your arguments to the contrary of the Doc's are not particularly credible if you're not a psychologist, and (2) with #31 above, you're making less and less sense.
GOP Gay Pedophile: With that screen name, how can I possibly take you at all seriously?
37 - Richard Longhurst
There's No Such Thing as a Red Apple
Last week I had a conversation with a grocery bagger about apples, and he let me in on an interesting factoid which I'll now share with you. It seems that the idea of "red" apples is nothing but cryptofascist propaganda.
"Not only is there no connection between something being red and it being an apple, but actually there's no such thing as a red apple. There's no such thing as a green apple either. Things are either red or they're apples. They're not both."
"Huh? I don't understand."
"It's like this," the bagger said. "See, redness and greenness are what we call 'complex properties.' This stuff doesn't really become latent until an object reaches a certain arbitrary criteria. So complex property means not just that the objects are complex, but that they're part of an interrelated set of complex things. Okay?"
"Okay," I said.
"If something's an apple, you're not talking about a complex property. So really, it can't be characterized as red or green. It's neither. There's tons of really solid research on this: the primary property of the object is 'apple.'"
"So there's no way that it can be both?" I said. "But wait a minute. What do you call it, then, when some apples absorb one spectrum of light and others absorb a different spectrum?"
"A discriminated apple," he said.
"Ohh... ," I said. "So it really is just something completely separate from red or green."
"It's really not that hard to get your head around, is it?" the grocer replied. "Red and green are pears or fire hydrants or other members of my arbitrarily defined set of objects. Things with teeth or handcranks, which are over 45 kilograms. That's normal. Apples? Not."
38 - Jet in Columbus
30% of adult males become sexually aroused when shown pictures of pre-pubescent girls in suggestive poses.
Since that's not true of me does that make me normal?
GoodChrist tell me itts not true!!!!!!!!!!!!!
39 - Jet in Columbus
Richard 22 What if they're left handed, repbulican, they're last name starts with f and the have a fetish for Fa uh Fo uh um Feraris (however that's spelled)?
40 - S. Levine
There was NO pedophilia involved with Mr. Foley's actions; pedophilia is sexual relations with pre- and peri-pubescent children (to approx. the age of 13); by law, Congressional pages are at least 16 years old.
What the man did was disgusting snough, let's not exacerbate the issue with false accusations!
41 - Michael J. West
Richard, your comparisons here are mostly fallacious, usually nonsensical, and completely ridiculous. I think you missed the point of the article entirely.
42 - Mariya
Foley IS gay, because (as far as we know) he also likes men who are 21. So if he's gay ("queer") and his behavior is socially inappropriate ("crazy") he IS a "crazy queer". This does not reflect poorly upon the non-crazy queers! :)
Also, it is actually legal to have sex with 16 year-olds in many states... do people automatically regain "mature" sexual preferences once they hop the border? And when exactly DO all people stop developing? 18? 21? 35? This psychologist is trying to find scientific grounds for arbitrary laws and it just doesn't work like that.
Can someone address the very pertinent comment #22?
43 - Michael J. West
Jet, you seem to be enjoying yourself here. Did this article make sense to you?
44 - Michael J. West
Mariya,
Do the words "gray area" from the article have no meaning to you whatsoever?
45 - Jet in Columbus
Indeed Dave 33 this has nothing to do with the age of anyone or their sexual preference.
Foley's case is nothing more than sexual harrassment on the job between two people of legal age
It's the right wing religious nuts that have turned this into a (gasp) gay thing!
46 - S. Levine
To add emphasis to my previous message, the age of consent in the District of Columbia is 16.
47 - Michael J. West
S. Levine:
Hence this part:
let's just talk about general here, not necessarily specifically Mark Foley.
48 - Jet in Columbus
Did it make sense? hmmmmm I'll have my psychologist ask my psychiatrist for an alnylitical psychological profile mapping pure specifics verses variable specifics or generalities on speculations concerning this most troubling and complicated subject and get back to at our/your connivance… I think
49 - Richard Longhurst
Furthermore, what does "primary sexual orientation" even MEAN?
If a man is attracted only to post-adolescent girls, his primary sexual orientation is "straight", which includes, according to you, both his gender preference and his age preferance.
But if he's attracted only to pre-adolescent girls, his priamy sexual orientation is "pedophile", which includes only his age preference, even though his gender preference is as clear as a non-pedophile's.
This asymmetry of semantics is supported neither by logic nor established definitions. It is supported ONLY by your political agenda and a random psychologist's blathering.
50 - Jet in Columbus
Marilyn... I heard it on Hollywood Squares that the human body stops developing at 26 and then starts aging.
If you can't believe Whoopi Goldberg who can you believe?
51 - Jet in Columbus
let's just talk about general here, not necessarily specifically Mark Foley
But I don't know of any Gay Generals in any branch of the service....
Oh i knew a lieutenant once... but that's a long story...
52 - Michael J. West
Richard, consider that first analogy I used. If you heard that a person had had sex with their dog, which would mean he's a zoophile. If the dog was male, would that make the person a "gay zoophile?"
And what the fuck does my political agenda have to do with ANYTHING here?
53 - Jet in Columbus
If any of you have been paying attention, most pedophiles are usually convicted of fondling children of BOTH sexes.
54 - Jet in Columbus
Has anyone figured out if all the pages were republican or not. Did he use maple syrup, then all the pages would be stuck together...
but that's another fetish altogether
55 - Michael J. West
Damn, Jet, what are you on today? Can I get some?
56 - gonzo marx
excellent Article Michael....
/golfclap
those who are attempting to spin and distract reveal themselves to be part of various Problems rather than individuals looking to Understand or even discuss in a Rational manner...
thanks for the Read
Excelsior?
57 - Jet in Columbus
Thanks to a secret program and suggestions via e-mail from Mr. Nalle a great deal of emotional pressure has been released in the last 24 hours and I am in a great mood.
or at least I hope I am...
58 - Jet in Columbus
If I'm annoying you I can leave... I can take a hint (snif)
59 - Anonymous
Your friend (the Doctor) is a moron.
Of course there are gay pedophiles, and you're a moron if you believe everything your friend tells you.
60 - Michael J. West
I see. And I should believe you instead, Mr. Anonymous?
61 - Michael J. West
No way, Jet! I just wish I was having as much fun as you seem to be.
62 - Jet in Columbus
It happens when you mistake your Percocet for Asparin... Just ask Rush Limbaugh...
63 - Chris2048
"If the dog was male, would that make the person a "gay zoophile?""
Possibly, if that was his preference - if he'd just as soon fuck a bitch (rare semantics for that phrase) then no. I'd say dogs have anough male characteristics for it to be valid; but male human children are more similar to male human adults than male dogs are to male human adults. BTW- it's also possible to be a child molestor and NOT be a pedophile.
64 - Michael J. West
BTW- it's also possible to be a child molestor and NOT be a pedophile.
True. It's also possible, for that matter, to be a pedophile and NOT be a child molester.
65 - Michael J. West
I'd say dogs have anough male characteristics for it to be valid; but male human children are more similar to male human adults than male dogs are to male human adults.
I'm sure you don't mean it this way, Chris, but this sentence inherently assumes that pedophilia has a greater degree of normalcy than does zoophilia.
Maybe that's the whole issue here: people are looking at pedophilia as a kind of variation on normal human sexuality. But pedophiles are mentally diseased, no more or less so than zoophiles.
66 - gonzo marx
Michael in #65 sez...
*But pedophiles are mentally diseased, no more or less so than zoophiles.*
Quoted for Truth
nuff said....
Excelsior?
67 - Jet in Columbus
It's all them damn heterosexuals making trouble again... ther aught to be a law!
68 - Chris2048
When I say 'more similar' I mean in terms of physical characteristics, to which you might be attracted to. a male dog is less like, in this respect, a man than a boy is; so prefering male dogs is less gay than prefering male children.
69 - Dawn
Great post Michael. As a person who would like to kill pedophiles with my bare hands, I have often had this argument with idiots that gays and peds are not one in the same, but in fact quite different. I would choose a homosexual mal or female to watch my child a billion times over, than someone who I deemed as having a overt attraction to children in a not healthy way. Gay is okay by me, pedophiles, not so much.
70 - Michael J. West
A source to start with (emphasis mine):
(Finkelhor, by the way, is a Ph.D. in Sociology, and, in addition to being director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center, has written four books and dozens of scholarly articles on child sexual abuse.)
So if pedophile is a separate sexual orientation, then the implication is that the term "gay pedophile" is roughly like calling someone a "gay heterosexual."
71 - Michael J. West
Thanks Dawn!
72 - linda shelton
oh please! mark foley is also a victim according to his report that a clergy abused him as a child.
so what that he claims to be "gay". this is an excuse. where is the evidence? he may not be gay but he is still considering the underage person as a sexual conquest. this is the problem. let us get back to the real issue here.
the parents of the pages bear some of the blame. whether they "thought" their children were safe or not. washington d.c. is known as a dangerous place the same as cincinnati or billings. a child should not be left to decide WHAT IS DANGEROUS.
stupid parents!!!!!!!!!!!!!
73 - Michael J. West
oh please! mark foley is also a victim according to his report that a clergy abused him as a child.
Yeah. Watch me not feel sorry for him.
74 - Chris2048
"pedophilia is "a separate sexual orientation" from homosexuality"
But is are the two mutually exclusive?
75 - Al Barger
The basic point of this article is nonsense, and seems to be pretty clearly just a political dodge based on arbitrary drawing of lines. Here's the basic arbitrary and untrue claim from your pal: "Gay and straight are grown-ups who go for other grown-ups. Consenting adults who understand what they're doing. That's normal. Pedophilia? Not."
So, he's simply asserting by definition that homosexual behavior between adults (however "adult" is defined) is "normal" (whatever that means), but that sexual attraction to young people is not. On what basis does he make this assertion, other than that it corresponds conveniently to the political/social fashions of the day? Plus, likening proclivities for inappropriately young human partners to beastiality is just dumb and not the same. Too young vs out of species is apples and oranges.
Mark Foley obviously is interested in (human) penises, and not in vaginas. He's a homosexual with proclivities for particularly young men. You can pretend that he's not gay by drawing words up to define this fact out of existence, but it's still fact. He's interested in young men, but not young women.
Further, it certainly at least seems that homosexuals are often more likely to favor inappropriately young partners. This is not to say that all homosexuals are pedophiles or ephebophiles, nor that heterosexuals are not sometimes drawn to inappropriately young members of the opposite sex. I don't have a piece of scientific documentation to back up this common observation, so you can pretend that this is not the case if you wish.
Human sexuality is obviously a very complicated area. There are all kinds of factors of hormones and genetics, upbringing, and early imprinting experiences involved. On the basis of an interest in truth, it does not behoove us to make a lot of sweeping generalizations about all heterosexuals or all homosexuals- especially perjorative ones.
One general principle from Freud though does seem to explain some of this to some extent. As I understand it, Freud said broadly that homosexuality was basically symptomatic of emotional immaturity. From that point of view, contrary to the convenient theory of Mr West's shrink buddy, homosexuality is not a mature sexuality.
This goes to the idea that young pubescent aged folks are more sexually fluid or ambiguous, and tend to simply grow out of homosexual proclivities. This would go to explaining such things as the the frequently observed phenomenon of college girls who are "lesbian until graduation," or the older mature straight and married David Bowie.
To the extent that this idea reflects reality, it's not surprising that homosexuals might be particularly drawn to young people. The particulars of this Mark Foley stuff, carrying on about what kind of underwear a 16 year old wears sound very much like he's emotionally immature and developmentally stunted, hung up on something from his youth, like Buck in Chuck & Buck. The Foley IMs smack of infantilism.
Alternately, we can simply insist that homosexuality is just the same as heterosexuality, and that homosexuals are no more likely to be attracted to inappropriately young people than are heterosexuals. Gay and straight are exactly equivalent, and anyone who suggests otherwise is obviously just a homophobic bigot.