Shortly after 9/11 placed Islam front and center on the world stage, people began to exhort Muslims to stop relying on a 7th century text for life in the 21st. This past week, Pope Benedict, as head of the Roman Catholic Church, demonstrated how far he was willing to indulge modern ideas by quoting a 14th century text when talking about faith and reason in this century.
Presumably the Pope had no idea of the furor he was going to cause by taking the embittered words of a little known king of a Constantinople besieged by the Ottomans that Islam and its Prophet were “evil” and “inhumane.” We’ll take the Vatican’s word that he was merely trying to foster debate about religion in the modern world.
Well, good. Orthodox Catholics are denied all forms of birth control except abstinence even between married couples, are particularly against abortion even in extreme cases such as incest and rape, are opposed to homosexuality even between consenting adults, and look upon secular law and government with suspicion, at the very least.
Traditonalist Catholics take things one step further by ignoring Vatican II, which attempted a certain amount of laudable reform by allowing, amongst other concessions, parish priests to use the local language rather than the original Latin to deliver weekly passages from the Bible, enabling the laity to actually understand the prayers in which it was participating.
In addition, the Church refuses to ordain women priests and remains firmly committed to its long-standing policy of celibacy amongst the priesthood, scandal and lapses notwithstanding. It also has a distressing tendency towards dabbling in the internal politics of countries and sweeping uncomfortable facts under the carpet as many an erring priest has found in the past.
While any and every religion would benefit from a debate on faith and reason, Catholicism, with its one billion adherents, and growing, would definitely be enriched by such discussion. We understand, the Pontiff meant a debate between religions, not within; and in particular between Christianity and Islam.
Herein lies the problem. A significant part of the globe (and not just the staunchly Muslim bits) labors under the delusion that the Church speaks for all Christendom. I use the somewhat antiquated phrase because this impression of the Catholic Church as the ultimate Christian authority goes back to the days of the Crusades when successive Pontiffs preached war and holy glory (ring a recent bell, anyone?), not to mention the dark period of the Inquisition, which spread its way to a number of European colonies around the world thanks to the diligent efforts of the Spanish and the Portuguese.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Bliffle
In that same speech the pope warned christians against submitting to Scientific Rationalism. So, do scientists have to riot, burn churches and shoot a nun to get an apology?
2 - Nancy
Good article, & good information. Thanks.
I was under the impression the pope was speaking at a private theological session with fellow clerics; so it was somewhat surprising to me that this ended up being spread all over the globe - not normally the fate of every religious conference the pope gives to various RC organizations on a routine basis during the year.
I'm not surprised it was Bernie Ratzinger, however, who of all popes ended up with his foot in his mouth. Long the power behind the papal throne, especially in JP II's last decade of increasing illness, pain, & disability, Ratzinger has been notorious among vatican-watchers for his reactionary, medieval policies. He is the one responsible for saving his old buddy, Boston prelate Law's butt from being arrested as an accessory in the infamous pedophile priest lawsuits that have, in the end, bankrupted the Boston archdiocese. He & Law both spent years blocking all investigations by Mass. law enforcement, trying to intimidate or threaten both politicians and investigators into dropping their cases, refusing to comply or even cooperate with investigations, and adding insult to injury, engaging in smear campaigns against those who dared to bring charges and their families and supporters. And THIS is the scumbag that the cardinals voted into the chair of St. Peter - !? Shades of the Medici, not just for his deviousness, but for his ruthlessness & utter disdain for civil law as well as those souls supposed to be in his care as ultimate shepherd, in favor instead of protecting the wealth & power of the vatican & its heirarchy. Law escaped arrest thanks to Ratzinger, who yanked him out of Boston and established him in a nice, comfy position in the vatican, where he still lurks, unable to return to the US where a warrant is still outstanding against him, altho not for want of Ratzinger's trying to pull the same crap on US authorities - and failing this time around. Nice pope, this.
So I'm not surprised it should be Ratzinger who has gotten himself in hot water. That he should find such a quote, and use it, is also not surprising, given his medieval mentality. Despite his attempts to disown that this quote in any way reflects his own personal views, those who have watched him know that, in fact, they are pretty much on target & typical of Ratzinger's mentality. Like a leopard, Ratzinger doesn't change his spots either. I wouldn't be surprised if he were to be the "Last Pope", entirely through his own agency.
3 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Amrita,
Germans tend to be tactless. Ratzinger has lots of faults, but he shouldn't be faulted for being the child of German culture.
4 - Iloz Zoc
The quote and intent aside, it is ironic that the Muslim reaction, the very substance of the quote, would of course be the now to be expected call to death and destruction. The tail is wagging the dog here.
5 - Mr. Bitch
Leave the Pope alone. He is correct in saying Islam is evil and a Death Cult. Who attacks and kills people who speaks their mind. The Islam Radicals will go to Hell hear on Earth. Ill tell you if any radicals show up in my state they will have hell to pay. Fuck Islam and the fuckers who fallow your fucking so called bitch of a God. Eat shit sand niggers.
6 - Richard Brodie
Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday that he was “deeply sorry” about the angry reaction to his recent remarks about Islam, which he said came from a text that didn’t reflect his personal opinion.
I like his clever wording. It is an "apology" that is not an apology at all! And good for Him.
First note that he says he's sorry about "the angry reaction". He does not say that he's the least bit sorry about what he said.
Second, he says the text he quoted didn't reflect his own "personal opinion", leaving it open to conjecture just what his own opinion is.
I for one like to think that his own opinion is that the 13th Century Byzantine Emperor he quoted was being far to easy on Islam!
Allow me to predict that this great man will go down in history as Benedict the Crusader.
7 - Baronius
First, Catholic priests have never delivered sermons in Latin. The prayers that were repeated every day, week, or year, that is to say the prayers that the people knew, were in Latin. Sermons were for instruction, and had to be in the common language.
Secondly, Christianity does have a single voice representing the majority of its followers. None of the other biggies have one leader. The Pope is the spokesman for Roman Catholics and Eastern-rite Catholics. He's recognized by most Eastern Orthodox and some Anglicans.
I know, he's also detested by many non-Catholic Christians. But the number that acknowledge his leadership role is larger than the number of Christians that don't. It's roughly equal to the number of Muslims. So the Pope is bound to carry some weight in religious circles.
8 - Martin Lav
Very good article.....Outstanding!
9 - Teach
Perhaps now is the point for us to look around and realize what is going on. For years now since September 11th, men and women on both sides of the world have stared at each other with hatred and religious fanaticism clouding their sight. Instead of recognizing the real problem, we continue to tip toe around people of certain races, ethnicities, and religions because we are afraid of their violent reactions. This unrealistic turn of events has already shown that what its own book calls "the religion of peace" has turned into an excuse for violent and inhuman riots.
As a career humanist, I always try and observe things from both sides of the line. Learning from edward Said has a unique ability to make one more dual-sighted than most, and I would like to think that I want the best for both sides in this conflict; however, the more events that happen, the more I begin to realize that this conflict is not one of religion or ideology, but economic power.
Think of this: the "first" target in this attack is the World Trade Center, one fo the most influential emblems and buildings in Western economics. Failing a colapse of the Western economy, Al-Qaeda and his Islamic army of hatredused their rhetoric and religion as a blunt instrument to begin knocking away at the things that Western peoples value. Whether these things are trashy in their eyes, or ours, or not is completely not an issue. (After all, one does not see New Yorkers going crazy when their bad attitude is up for criticism.) A certain group of people, Western or Eastern, does not wield the right to take innocent lives no matter in whose name. The one thing all people of all religions find sacred is life and none of the people I know, Western or Eastern, have stood by these so called extremists.
What we should be indicting this Papal joker for is not insensitivity, but a blatant disregard for the safety of people embroiled in this fight and a desire to keep the fires of conflict burning in order to consume all of the people all over the globe.
We should also be indicting anyone whose rhetoric of divisive politics has been held up to the highest standard and given the least credence. This includes any political pundit, talking head, candidate, or random commentator whose "expertise" is fueling the fires of this fight. Perhaps it is time for people to stop reading the thoughts of these random bloggers and challenge their dominance of the world. They do not know everything and setting themslves up as such is only destroying the public discourse and the ability of some few honest statesmen to try and work towards a solution to this problem.
A final story to elucidate the point. After 9/11, we had a friend living in the dorm with us who was not even Afghani, as the terrorists were, but was a Sikh, a Muslim from Pakistan. He was a kind man and had a generous soul. He loved us and we loved him; when the ignorant guys from the next floor down came to wrap a rope anround his neck and toss him from the window to die a horrible death hanging on the side of the building, we stood fast and defended our friend. Those who speak for peace need to stand together now, challenge everything, and cut through the religious and political smokescreen to the real issue: an ongoing fight for economic supremacy in an ever shrinking world. Do not let the political leadersof the world continue a fight that keeps the populace afraid and cornered.
10 - Amrita
Thanks for reading everybody!
Bliffle - is it wrong of me to find your post funny? well, too late. and no, i dont think any of that's going to work... he'd just use it in his next speech as an example of the satanic scientific community.
Nancy - thank you and welcome. I was one of those people watching Ratzinger get elected with some dismay. Not that I'm catholic but the office of the Pope is one of influence. I'm going to guess and say that Ratzinger was elected as a reaction to the advances made by evangelicals like Jerry Falwell in places like South America at the Church's cost.
Ruvy - Oh, not all of them :). But in any case, nobody asked him to be the German poster boy - just the Pope. If he doesnt know how other than to issue edicts about stuff thats none of his business then he really ought to think of getting a Press Advisor like JP.
Iloz - if you look at all the people who are so mad about the Pope that nothing less than his death would do for them, you'll see warped individuals who're out for some fame. Fame of the kind that will give them increased media mileage and thus put them one of up in the power stakes coz they can always say "I represent such and such percentage of Muslims". I've never thought religions themselves do half the harm ascribed to them - its the people who interpret them for others who do most of the evil.
Mr. Bitch - well if there are any radicals in your state you won't know about them before they blow something up so dont worry about it. i'm sure its bad for your blood pressure.
Richard - I just hope some idiot doesnt take it into his head to take that Somali cleric seriously and go off to kill him. Next thing you know, we'd have saint ratzinger and a real crusade on our hands. what joy.
Baronius - you're right. thank you for pointing it out. I meant to write prayer and not sermon and will change it immediately in the text. however, i stand by my original thesis which is to say most Catholics, who are converts in the third world, had no idea what they were saying in church. literacy levels in some of the parts visited by missionaries during the colonial period did not stretch to latin and in many parts, the priest was always a white man sent out by Rome to serve in some interior part of Asia, Africa and South America. Since Vatican II, the Third World has seen an increase in the number of its priests - enough at all events for an African to be spoke of, at least, as the next Pope before Ratzinger was elected.
Catholics and Muslims each number a little over one billion according to information on the net. so yes, their numbers are about equal. however, the fact that the other Christians dont have a head of church as such, doesnt empower the Pope to speak on their behalf. One doesnt become a religious leader by default.
Martin - thank you :)
Teach - i agree with you about the economic angle to this whole thing. i've been trying to think it out and so far i havent been able to reason it out to my own satisfaction. politics, religion and commerce all have a role to play in the kind of violence we see today. the sad thing is, we seem to have evolved into a spineless species in which adversity doesnt seem to be throwing up men or women of character who are capable of seeing past their own self interest. i've seen more empty rhetoric around me than any real debate or examination.
11 - Richard Brodie
this impression of the Catholic Church as the ultimate Christian authority goes back to the days of the Crusades when successive Pontiffs preached war
If those popes had not been in the forefront of beating the Muslims back from that particular attempt to take over all of Europe, you would not today be enjoying all the cultural, artistic, and economic benefits of the flowering of a White European Renaissance. You and the entire rest of the world would be living exactly like Mohammed and his followers lived, under Shariah law in the 7th Century. And if the current Pope is not able to spark the same kind of a Muslim expulsion from Modern Europe, before the current demographic invasion proceeds to irreversible levels, your posterity will witness the destruction of a civilization that took 2,500 to develop.
12 - STM
Many devout Muslim migrants to Europe, the US/Canada and Australia/New Zealand fear the opposite .... that the exposure of their children to the decadent delights of western civilisation will taint Islam and change it irreversibly.
Given the problems we've had Down Under recently, with some Muslim Arab kids embracing aspects of the local culture and clashing with their elders, there might be some truth in it.
But if that's the case, let's hope it changes it for the better. Something's gotta give.
13 - SHARK
Very good essay.
=========
An aside:
I always feel a bit strange in the midst of these "conflicts" -- kinda like the recent Hezballah vs Israel "war"; I really don't wanna "pick a side" in a battle between two anachronistic, nationalistic, tribal, abstract, racist, medieval fantasies.
sigh ...Nobody seems to be speakin' for The Shark.
The best that I can hope for is that they KILL each other off before they exterminate the Entire Fucking Planet [aka "God's Creation"] -- but according to History -- as a rational, secular atheist -- I'll be the first guy drawn and quartered by these Earthly Manifestations of God's Love and Admonition to Brotherhood.
Peace Be Upon Thee & Death To Fanatics!
14 - SHARK
Baronius: "Christianity does have a single voice representing the majority of its followers."
If yer talkin' about the Pope [um... apparently, you've never visited a Baptist Church in Texas] -- you forgot to add:
"...but MOST of followers consistently IGNORE what he says."
Hope that helps!
15 - Laurie
I would encourage Mr. Rajan to research the rich reasons behind the Catholic Church's teaching on such issues as abortion, contraception, homosexuality etc... He will find that it is rich in reason and has been debated intelligently for centuries by brilliant minds. Those that criticize Church teaching without taking the time to discover the reasons behind Catholic Church teaching are usually people that don't want to discover its logic. It could possibly be life changing and most people find it easier or more desirable to criticize than to be confronted with a look at their own lifestyles.
In contrast, I have yet to find an intelligent discussion on the brilliance of Islamic teaching. The Catholic Church welcomes discussion as she can more than adequetly defend her positions.
16 - Andy Marsh
None of the links in this article are working for me. I clicked on the link for the little known king...I heard he was an emperor...I clicked on the link for traditional cathoics...nothing happened...and I clicked on the link for vatican II and nothing happened.
As far as the church speaking for all christians...who gives a fuck...it ain't the christains running around beheading people for their beliefs...killing people for making movies critical of their beliefs or rioting over cartoons...it seems to be the rest of the world calling for the end to radical islam...a long overdue call I might add.
You people act like the Rat was wrong in what he quoted! All it shows me is that the so called religion of peace has been fucked up from the beginning!
All organized religion is crazy and relies on centuries old dogmas but only one sends people out to martyr themselves in the name of their religion.
17 - Joan Bias
Let's have some, then, Laurie. Logical explanations of Church doctrine, I mean. Why does the Catholic Church oppose contraception, even in the third world, where their opposition to condoms has led to countless deaths? And why do Catholics not ordain females or allow them into the highest reaches of Church hierarchy?
18 - Christopher Rose
Thaks for reporting the duff links, Andy. I have passed the problem on to a higher power!
Joan: I don't think it is possible for anybody at all, never mind Laurie, to explain the Catholic Church and its warped ideology.
19 - Joan Bias
I am not expecting a response.
20 - Andy Marsh
That's a good thing too Joan...wouldn't want you to get your hopes up to high...something tells me...you wouldn't like the answers anyway...no one ever does...I'm speaking as a recovering catholic here...
Love the name too!
21 - Joan Bias
Andy, thank my parents " it's my real name. Joan Baez wasn't famous in 1965, when I was born. I am old.
22 - Andy Marsh
65? Still a baby! I was in first grade!
Your last name is bias? Or Bias??? You didn't get any grief for that growing up did you?
23 - Nancy
Amrita, I doubt you will thank me for my next comments.
As I mentioned in another thread, Ratzinger may be a jerk, but he's entitled fully to his opinions and to voice them, especially when, as in this instance, he was speaking PRIVATELY at a PRIVATE function. How the comments got out is something that he should definitely take steps to find out & if necessary punish severely. But that is moot. The point is, the comment was made in a country where freedom of speech is the law.
If muslims want to restrict freedoms in their little shitholes they squat in, fine & dandy. But they have NO RIGHT to protest, comment, threaten or demand squat from those in such countries where free speech is the law. The ultimate irony is that in making such stupid & barbaric threats, not to mention actual physical attacks on churches and murdering elderly nuns, they merely prove the truth of the assertion the pope was quoting, that Islam is indeed a murderous, evil, and vile religion of violence. Apparently they're too stupid to realize they've just shot their own credibility.
In any event, it's time to stop apologizing to these middle eastern muslim thugs. It's also time to start deporting them back to the pissholes they came from. If they like sharia so much, they should live where it's the law.
24 - Robin Kavanagh
This article was great.
I think that religious institutions are inherently insecure about their standing in the world and their significant to the people, which is why when any of them are questioned they go on the defensive. For this reason, and the fact that millions upon millions of people follow religion based on faith and not fact, religion has the potential to be dangerous. Look at the Crusades, the Inquistion and the current state of Islamic and Christian extremism. It's all in fear that their ideals will be proven wrong and the religions will lose their following. "You must live by my rules or die." Why can't it just be "You don't believe what I believe, so you're going to go to hell. Boo hoo for you."? Why do they have to interfere with everyone else's lives?
Religion is great for people who need it to bloster their lives and give them philosphical meaning. But for the rest of us, just leave us alone.
As an aside, Ruvy is right on the mark about Germans. My mom was born there and she and ever other member of my family who is German has a problem with tact (myself included at times).
25 - Joan Bias
Andy: Much.