MY STATEMENT:
"It's like saying just because a woman is dressed a certain way or goes out to a bar with her friends, that she asks to be raped."
YOUR RESPONSE:
"I am sorry to burst your bubble, but studies have shown that in fact, a large number of victims of rape were in fact dressing "provocatively" on the days the attacks took place.
Far be it from me to justify the rapes because of these facts, but there is a certain correlation between "cause" and "effect," specially when it has to deal with the more , "bestial," and "irrational" part of our natures, and what triggers those irrational responses.
So common sense dictates, "don't ask for it, and chances are you won't get it," or "don't stick you hand into the lion's maw, and expect him to lick it!"
MY RESPONSE TO YOUR RESPONSE:
Well, I disagree with your response totally!! Are you saying that because women wear bikinis on a beach that they are dressing to "provocatively" and they diserve to be attacked or raped?
I don't know where you get your information on "studies have shown that in fact, a large number of victims of rape were in fact dressing "provocatively" on the days the attacks took place." I hate to burst your bubble but studies are based on statistics, and statistics are based on partial information collected in a data base, meaning it is not the whole truth.
Not every woman who has been attacked and raped reports the rape due to the fact that they feel like less of a person or that they do not want to relive the whole experience with the public, so how can the "Studies" be accurate?
It should not matter what a person wears. What may be considered dressing to "provocatively" to one person is not to another. I guess you expect all women to wear boot leggings and long dresses, with long sleeves to cover every inch of their bodies, just like they did a hundred years ago. But guess what women were raped back then too.
Rape is not about what a person is wearing, it is about what goes on in the mind of the rapist. It is about control. It is about one person having the power over another. It is a vicious and brutel crime performed by s deviate, demented, sick individual to fulfill his twisted fantasies. Ever heard of BTK?
I have read articles of young men entering, attacking and raping elderly women (between ages 65 to 85) in their own beds, while they were asleep. So I guess the elderly lady was dressing to "provocatively" in her cotton night gown and got what she asked for, right?
I am sure I did not take your words out of context, because those were your words.
If I am reading you right, you look at the pictures of Natalee Holloway in her dance uniform performing at a high school football game, and think to yourself she diserved to be raped.
If that is your opinion, I guess YOU FEEL all cheerleaders, paton twirlers, pom-pom girls, models, movie stars and bikini wearing women of the world deserves to be attacked and raped. Why not? you said it yourself "don't ask for it, and chances are you won't get it," or "don't stick you hand into the lion's maw, and expect him to lick it!"
Common sense is lacking on your part.
77 -
snow
Aug 26, 2005 at 9:52 am
Kathy Trusty. I agree!!!!! But i am sure you will get a paragraph after paragraph response from that person saying how wrong you are! Just watch. CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
78 -
KATHY TRUSTY
Aug 26, 2005 at 10:29 am
To SNOW, thank you. To answer your question, I don't think that for one moment that Natalee went to Aruba to drink and have sex. She was highly excited about graduating from high school and her exceptance into college. She simply went to Aruba with her classmates to celebrate an achievment.
She might have celebrated a little too much, but that does not mean she asked for what happened to her to take place.
Anybody who goes on vacation lets their hair down. They go on vacation to enjoy life and to escape the hum-drum of their normal everyday life.
Nobody plans to become a victim. It could happened to any one on any given day, no matter how rich or poor they are, and no matter how young or old they are.
Unfortunately there are sick predators out there you could care less who you are all they want to do is to fulfill their twisted fantasies, just like BTK did, and they act or look just like one of us. These deviate, demented, sick individuals look at everyone as a victim no matter who they are, because in their mind everybody is fair game.
Joran could be predator. Hopefully the truth will come out. Who knows. But if he is innocent, his actions and back ground begs to differ. This is why the media is in a frenzy to know more about the case. To get the story out. To help the truth to prevail.
79 -
KATHY TRUSTY
Aug 26, 2005 at 10:51 am
It doesn't matter to me if I am right or wrong, this is just my opinion.
I stated what I felt was needed to be said, to try to put things in perspective about how the world is a very dangerous place to live in, that's all.
Everybody has a right to their opinion, right or wrong, but know body has the right to put them down for having an opinion. This is what makes the world interesting. By having a opinion, one might give wisdom to one who is clueless and insensitive to what is going on around them.
Everybody around the world learns something new everyday. And then sometimes they wished they had not.
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Althor
Aug 26, 2005 at 4:09 pm
Dear Kathy Trusty,
Your assertion that “studies” are based on statistics, and that said statistics can’t be relied on, because of all the other variables you pointed out, means that every scientific study ever made that relied on statistics, is totally and completely invalid!
I can’t think of anyone else but you, who has dealt such a devastating blow to the “scientific method in the last three hundred years!”
Further, I am sorry to have to “amuse” Snow with my “paragraph, after paragraph responses,” but though you may fault me of anything else, at least I have tried to express my views, and explain the reasoning behind them, however faulty in your opinion, in an orderly sequence, and an intelligent manner.
It is true that “rape” can also be an expression of dominance, as you pointed out, and that in any particular case there may be present any combination of proportions of lust, and dominance involved as the motivators for the nefarious act.
However, from your comments, as well as those of the previous poster who accused me of “being a man” (which I am, and feel no necessity to apologize for whatsoever), as well as those running in the thread of the arguments of most pro-Beth, pro-Natalee bloggers here, and in other sites, a quite revealing pattern emerges:
It seems that Natalee’s and Beth’s most ardent supporters are women with certain characteristics.
These women generally see nothing wrong with devoting our news coverages 24/7 to the events “not taking” place in Aruba, since in the face of all the “scant” evidence available, and the few “significant” developments in the case there is really nothing new to report (hence the hashing , and rehashing of stale old facts, rumors and innuendos every night for months now by all the pundits), at the expense of not reporting on other more pressing matters such as the war in Iraq, the Supreme Court confirmation, or the growing nuclear threat from North Korea, and Iran etc. When you point this to them they all seem to take it personally, which denotes an unnatural emotional involvement on their part.
These women apparently, also have other traits in common, exemplified by some of your comments: They seem for the most part to see “males” (as implied by the comments of the previous poster) as threatening, deceivers, traitors, and oppressors, and not as “equal partners,” often referring to them as “men” in an implied derogatory manner, who, in their inferred opinion, exercise “ dominance”over them, and other women (poor victims all!) through “rape”, and “physical’ violence.
Again, from information gleaned from numerous comments of Beth / Natalee supporters, most of these women seem to be either divorced or separated, have had several failed relationships, and or are single mothers, and all seem to carry the baggage of unresolved “relationship” issues with them as a chip on their shoulder, and seem for the most part to be very unhappy with their lives!
As I pointed out they seem to make the bulk of the Beth / Natalee supporters, and seem to identify with them to the point of glossing over, excusing, or justifying any lapse of judgement on Beth’s and or Natalee’s part in setting in motion the chain of events culminating in this tragedy. To them “cause and effect,” boils down to “men” being the cause of the rape, aggression, and or abuse, with poor, victimized, brutalized women (as Natalee) as the “effect!”
Though doubtlessly women have often been brutalized in the past (as men have also), to view the interrelationship between the sexes, in such a negative, narrow minded, and prejudiced manner, is wrong, and in my opinion it is “coloring” their judgement, which explains their “unconditional” support of beth, and all things Natalee (subconsciously they seek for Natalee restitution, and revenge for her, as well as for themselves!).
In the words of a fellow blogger who just happened in plainer terms to “hit the nail on the head” this Natalee Holloway obsession is been driven by hordes of disillusioned, neurotic, overweight, women, divorced, or married several times, hungering for affection, and attention, and a sense of belonging, who, yes, demographically do exist in greater numbers in trailer parks all throughout the more rural parts of America; many of which have nothing better to do all day than medicate the "hypochondriac illness of the month", sitting all day in front of the TV, popping pills, eating "Twinkies", and blogging "chain-prayers" on the web for Natalee.
Let's face it this is the most compelling drama/adventure/mistery event they have seen on TV in quite a while (well, or at least since the Michael Jackson "Monkey Trial"), since if it wasn't for Natalee, and Beth, they'd be watching the "Home Shopping Network", and they do identify with the victim ("Poo' Lil' Ole' Me! After I gave them all three, the best years of my life that night!”)
Another factor often mentioned by these women to justify their utterly illogical positions is to fall back on the exigencies of “maternal instincts,” to justify them.
It is understandable that as a woman you have maternal instincts, which explain why you, as so many other women do, empathize so strongly with Beth. Maternal instincts are as primordial in us, as the fear of the dark. However, one need not be afraid of the dark.
Having been raised by a loving, and devoted Father, never having wanted for lack of nurturing on his part, nor ever feeling any void in my life for lack of maternal participation , I personally find, at today’s stage in our evolution, “maternal instincts” to be a bit overrated!!!
The only discernable emotional scar I bear as the result of having lacked the nurturing of my mother, is an excessive liking, almost an obsession, with women’s breasts, and of course, this most likely can be psychologically attributed to not having been breast-fed, whereby a beautiful pair of full breasts, subliminally represent to me not only sex, but nourishment as well! Ha, ha!
Sorry for the “paragraphs, after paragraph, after paragraph” Snow, I’ll be more “brutish” next time and just respond “Ughh!”
Althor
81 -
Althor
Aug 26, 2005 at 4:32 pm
Quote: "It doesn't matter to me if I'm right or wrong, this is just my opinion" (and God be damned if I don't see Joran "flayed, castrated, and burned alive at the stake wether he's guilty or not, the filthy "male!" It's my opinion!!!)
Kathy Trusty
Lo! Now its my turn to be "sexist"!
Wow! What a response! How illogically like a woman!
Althor (shaking head)
82 -
amh
Aug 26, 2005 at 4:40 pm
What I find so funny about Althor is that here he/she is relentlessly talking about how the media can't stop covering this story and how they need to move on to more important news....he can't stop talking about it him/herself! Talk about ironic. As much as you've posted on this site, Natalee's disappearance must be on your mind morning, noon, and night. If you are truly disgusted by all of the coverage, why do you keep telling us about it...I thought you were sick of it all? Althor is a hipocrite.
I am amazed myself how much the media are focusing on this story, but I chose to watch and learn about what's going on when I feel like; when I don't feel like it...I don't watch. Simple as that. I wish more victims were able to receive the same amount of coverage...in a perfect world, right? Let's ask CNN or MSN to create an "all missing person's channel all the time" to ensure every victim has a fair chance of being found! Then people like Althor won't have anything to complain about.
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Althor
Aug 26, 2005 at 5:02 pm
Dear AMH,
Why do I keep complaining about the excessive coverage of the Natalee Holloway fiasco?
Simple, because they keep dishing it out, and its journalistically unjustifiable, and wrong, in the face of all the other threats , and dangers we face as a Nation.
If FOX, or CNN or MSNBC would create a "Natalee Holloway Channel," well, good, and dandy!And I wish they would, so that all you folks "Nataleeing" can go there to get 24/7 "updates" on the lack of "updates" to report in Aruba, but at this point, this case DOES NOT BELONG IN OUR NEWS CHANNELS! And I will continue to complaint about the excessive coverage, so long as the media keeps indulging in it! I am trying to build consensus about the travesty!
Althor
84 -
Althor
Aug 26, 2005 at 5:22 pm
One humble observation to my fellow Blogcritics bloggers.
I thought that we were supposed to be, quote: "a sinister cabal of superior bloggers...etc, etc," but lately, it seems we are being invaded by the "Mountain Brook Beth Holloway Twitty all girl wrestling team!"
Lord have mercy!!!
Althor (shaking head again!)
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snow
Aug 26, 2005 at 6:05 pm
MY ADVICE TO ALL THE WOMEN. IGNORE THE JERK. HE IS THE ONE WHO MOST LIKELY SITS HOME ALL DAY WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THEN TO WRITE THIS LONG WINDED RESPONSES WHICH REALLY IS A BUNCH OF B.S BY THE TIME YOU GET TO THE END, IF YOU MAKE IT TO THE END. HE IS THE ONE THAT MOST LIKELY HAS NO PARTNER IN HIS LIFE AND THAT IS WHY HE COMES ACROSS (TO ME ANYWAYS)AS A BITTER LONELY MAN.
ALTHOR HOW DARE YOU ASSUME WHAT OUR LIVES ARE OR ARE NOT LIKE. IF I WERE YOU I WOULD STOP WRITING THE COMMENTS CASUE NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. AS I AM SURE YOU HAVE NOTICED PEOPLE FIRE BACK AT YOU AND YOU SEEM TO FEED OFF OF IT. DON'T BOTHER TO RESPOND. YOU DESERVE TO BE ALONE AND IF YOU ARE NOT I FEEL SORRY FOR YOUR WIFE/HUSBAND OR GIRLFRIEND/BOYFRIEND. MY ADVISE TO YOU IS TO TURN THE T.V OFF.
86 -
vinnie
Aug 26, 2005 at 7:48 pm
I agree with some of the comments that were presented here. But realitically, the fact is that someone's daughter is missing. If all of you here could be in her parents place, WHAT WOULD ALL OF YOU WANT TO HAVE HAPPEN? Your children are your life, and once your children are taken away without reasoning, you have no life.
87 -
snow
Aug 26, 2005 at 8:21 pm
Vinnie don't ask Althor that he is not human!!!!!!!!!!
88 -
Althor
Aug 26, 2005 at 8:36 pm
Yes Snow,
The Beth bitch stole my Fox, and I want it back!!! Waaaaaaahhh!!!
Now get back to your "Chain Prayers" for Natalee.
"Unhumanly" yours,
Althor
89 -
snow
Aug 26, 2005 at 9:06 pm
Yes ALTHOR you got something right for a change you are "unhuman"!!!!!
90 -
Flounder
Aug 27, 2005 at 1:16 am
AGAIN !!!! Does anyone have any recent news on Natalie? Someone told me Joran said that someone raped and murdered her.. I have no idea. Has anything new been found? I'd appreciate if anyone knows.. thanks !!! :-)
91 -
Althor
Aug 27, 2005 at 3:28 am
Wow Snow! I must have hit close to home whith my assessment of you, since you "bristled" all up, and got all “paranoiac” about it!!!
You know, is so funny how you twisted (just the same way Beth does, twisting so many things about her daughter, the investigation, and Aruba!) an anecdote I “injected” into my response in order to give it a bit of a “humorous” turn, about how I like “big breasted women” because I was “bottle-fed,” into this “dark,” “psychological trauma” which supposedly has “warped” my soul, and “twisted” me into this “unhuman monster” (the preferred choice is inhuman, by the way, not unhuman) incapable of “sympathizing” with (falling prey to) Beth Holloway Twittys impassioned pleas (“Drama Queen performances”) on behalf of her “sainted” (no comments!) daughter!
As a matter of fact I was being facetious, for the sake of introducing a bit of “humor” into my “long winded” response, as I previously said; but in reality both, my mother and father, both, raised me, and as a matter of fact, they just celebrated their 50th Wedding Anniversary last April, so IN YOUR FACE!
However, I do admit I always identified more with my Father, than with my Mom, something she always teases me about even to this day saying that I love him better. So there you go.
I’m really sorry you find my responses “long winded.” It is so ironic that you “women” are the ones usually accusing us “men” of being “uncommunicative!” Here I am trying to express my views in a clear, precise, and intelligible manner, and this is the thanks I get for it!!!
Well, at least it is a consolation, that I’m not only able “write,” but also “read” a bit more words than those strung on your average “Mc Donald’s Menu” (and make sense of them too!)!!!
In response to your “characterizing ” me as “sitting at home all day with nothing better to do,” you could not be farther from the truth! In fact I actually am a pretty busy person, however I can afford the luxury of occasionally taking a peek at, or posting on a blog, because I “multitask,” though I doubt you would know what that is.
As to my loneliness, I have raised six children, and I’m still married to the “wife of my youth” (boy, what endurance!), whom I married when I was seventeen years old (hope you can say the same about your relationships!). And if there is something I need, it would seem to me to be a bit of TIME BY MYSELF every now and then (after changing so many Pampers for years, do I have to start all over again with the grandkids?!?).
Maybe I should take off for a bit, and take up fly-fishing!
By the way, I would not have allowed any one of our daughters to go anywhere away from home (while they were living at home), without their mother accompanying them in the first place, much less to a “Girls Gone Wild Party” in Aruba!!!
And secondly, had such an unfortunate tragedy happened to us, I would availed myself of every mean to find her, and unlike Beth and Jughead would have been digging in the pile of landfill garbage myself even with my bear hands if I had to, rather than sitting by the sidelines talking to the “media,” and would not have left a single stone “unturned!”
But, I would not have denigrated, and dishonored the memory of my daughter, by turning her disappearance into nothing more than a “media circus,” a “soap opera” exposing our innermost private feelings, our grief, anxiety, and despair, to a “morbid, captivated audience” for “entertainment,” or engaged in performing denigrating “staged” antics in front of cameras always following our every move, as if this was nothing more than another “TV Reality Show” to keep the “limelight” on us, all the while dragging my daughter’s image, by the media’s “prying,” “sensationalist” very nature, through the mud into the gutter as Beth has! I say, Shame on you Beth!!!
Anyhow, I’m sorry if I mischaracterized you in any way (which I believe I didn’t or you wouldn’t have jumped the way you did about it!), but here again the old adage applies: “ If you walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and look like a duck...” then you must be a “duck,” or a Beth Holloway Twitty “unconditional” supporter! Ha, ha!
But let me make a helpful suggestion: why put up with the likes of such “heartless sons-of-bitches” as “I” in this blog, when you can go to this other site called “Nat’s Place,” where they do not allow any “dissent” with Beth and her supporters; have a song that was actually written, and orchestrated, by one of the members of the blog in “honor” of Natalee Holloway, which you can download for free; have “Chain Prayers for Natalee and Beth on the hour, every hour; and carry on “collections” to support Beth’s (shopping, and fine dining in Aruba) on going, desperate search for her daughter in Aruba on a daily basis???
That’s all they talk there! You should check it out. I think you’d like it!
Tata !
“Inhumanly” yours,
Althor
P.S. Now, my wife is bugging me saying: “ See, even she feels sorry that I’m still married to you!” Ha, ha (this is another joke now, don’t go and bend it all out of shape again into some “dark,” and “twisted” bullshit or other. Ok?)!
92 -
snow
Aug 27, 2005 at 6:35 am
Althor you clearly don't like it when people like myself have said something to you and i would appericiate it if you stopped "assuming" things about other people. I myself have 2 beautiful children and a wonderful husband. He himself has posted on the this site and thinks that your "responses" and "thoughts" are disgusting. It makes it even worse to know that you do have children and a wife. Poor things. Or is that another one of your stories that you created up in your "twisted" head again. If so you really should go talk to someone about that. lol Why are you wasting your time on me when you could be talking about Natalee Holloway. I feel so honoured that you think about me.lmao You don't make me mad or fire me up i just think that you are outrageous and i am sure that i am not the only one. If you took alook i am sure you also can find a website that has "Beth" and "Natalee" haters! I believe here we want to find out the DAILY events into her disapperance!!!
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)
93 -
snow
Aug 27, 2005 at 6:37 am
FLOUNDER YES the KALPOE brothers have been rearressted. It happened Friday morning i believe. No one has been charged yet.
And, have you seen the interviews on fox news with deepak’s mother. I mean if it isn’t so obvious that these are the biggest mama’s boys in Aruba. That’s funny since we’ve somehow transformed them into rapist/murderers.
Where is a shred of evidence to back up jane’s assertions? I might as well throw it in here that nataleeannholloway equals 1188, and the sums of the latitude longitude of palm beach, aruba
At 12 deg 34 min and 70 deg 2 min equals 82 and 36 which equals 118. Hey, if you take all the verses in the bible with a gematrical value of 6888, which is the number of days Natalee will be on 8/30/2005, the total length of those verses is 1818.
I can’t wait for the day, because you see a lot of people will see their own ugly pettiness in their attitude and actions. While we’re at can we connect Natalee to the whole middle of the bible controversy 118:8. Btw, never book at room at Holiday Inn which equals 666.
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Althor
Aug 27, 2005 at 3:54 pm
I thought this was a site where you could engage in "intelligent" discussions, and not another "We love you Beth! Go, go girl..." site for the terminally "groupie."
But if there is a "Hate Beth and this fiasco site" where all of Beth's antics, and that of her cronies are properly placed in perspective, and NO ONE IS CONDEMNED for having the "audacity" to criticize "St. Beth of Aruba," and her "Virgin Daughter," please let me know!!!!
Althor
96 -
Althor
Aug 27, 2005 at 3:58 pm
Quote: "I can’t wait for the day, because you see a lot of people will see their own ugly pettiness in their attitude and actions. While we’re at can we connect Natalee to the whole middle of the bible controversy 118:8. Btw, never book at room at Holiday Inn which equals 666."
So much for the "Sinister cabal of superior bloggers.." !!!!
Althor
97 -
Althor
Aug 27, 2005 at 4:02 pm
Oh, and by the way Snow, if indeed you have a husband...please send him my condolences.
"Inhumanly" yours,
Althor
98 -
vinnie
Aug 27, 2005 at 4:18 pm
I'm not one to sit around and openly discuss what is going on in the news, cause frankly, in my opinion, the news is what is making the world the way it is. People talk about not letting there kid's go see violent movies, well infact the parents are blind to the way the world real is. There is more violence on the new's then you will see in any movie. The longer this goes on with Natalie, more of this type of stuff will happen. Although some of ALTHOR'S view's I don't like, I have to agree with some thing's that he is saying. Why would any parent let there children go away knowing full well what could happen. And just so you know, Althor, this is snow's husband.
An opinion is just what it is, which is open fully for any type of discussion, any comment's or quotes are fully justified as it is only an opinion.
My point, which has been lost, is that there are only 24 hours--at least in my days--in which to inform the public. The case of Natalee Holloway is in the same condition as the case of John Paul II--no new information. Let's talk about something else. Possibly something we can do something about.
This is not a criticism of Natalee, her family, or her behavior. We've all been eighteen!
100 -
Althor
Aug 28, 2005 at 2:30 am
Excellent post Vinnie!
I apologize if in my jocoseness I may have offended your wife, or you in any way. Sometimes I make "light" of serious matters, specially when they get to the point of absurdity, in order not to get deeply depressed by the apparent futility of it all!
Glad to see there is someone with common sense at the helm.
My point, which I have so often tried to elucidate from different angles in my "long winded" posts, is that no matter how much we may personally empathize with Beth, she and the media have blown her daughter's disappearance way out of all reasonable proportion.
It is understandable that she would do it. But for the media, and for us to be paying such an enormous amount of undivided attention to this case, specially during prime time newscasts, is wrong.
There are far too many other things going on that we should be well informed about, like the growing opposition to the war in Iraq. Should we stay, or should we withdraw? " something the "Jihadists" will interpret, and "claim" as a "victory" all over the world, even further "steeling" their resolve to re-establish the "Caliphate," and further emboldening them to subdue the "Great Satan"...us!
With the anti-war movement in full swing, shouldn't we be discussing what is the best course of action to take as a Nation, and what would the consequences be, rather than what other new bit of "trash" found today in Aruba may possibly "break the case?!?!" I hope you get my point.
That is why I think the developments in Aruba have far dominated our news coverage for too long, specially when, as Miriam so aptly pointed out in her post, there is "... no new information" to report, and they hash, and rehash the same bullshit (excusez mon francais), that they have been hashing, and rehashing for the last two months!!!
Anyway, again excellent post, and my apologies.
Althor
101 -
KATHY TRUSTY
Aug 29, 2005 at 3:03 pm
To: ALTHOR
If you have complaints about the news go to these websites and complain to them. Here is a short list:
Fox News Channel
CNN.com
Today's News from MSNBC - MSNBC.com
NBC.com
ABC.com
CBS.com
I have often found it more effective to go top the source, when it comes to complaining about a real issue. How about you?
102 -
Althor
Aug 29, 2005 at 4:57 pm
Hello there again Kathy Trusty!
Too late! Already have on numerous occasions!
As a matter of fact Bill O'Reilly mentioned recently one of my "hallmark" phrases concerning this fiasco on the air: "When is enough Natalee Holloway coverage enough?". I think he might have liked the ring of it, and that's why he used it, something he gleaned from my e-mails.
Althor
103 -
Frank
Aug 30, 2005 at 7:48 am
I don't understand you guys. Im from holland and i know aruba very well. It is terrible what happened there op aruba natalie still missing but don't blame the aruba authorities. We in holland are given mutch more better information about the case then the american media does. There have been a shipment of f16 fighter planes searching for her and there are many dutch special investigators at the island to investigate it. Aruba is a beautiful island i've lived there 6 months for school till januari 2005. It is not a crminal island it is in fact a very happy island. Don't judge things before you know the best of it. I hope natalie been found quickly, is is terrible for the parents. But believe me the aruban authorities and the dutch authorities do everything they can. They cant let the fbi help them because it is a dutch island and it will complicate a lot of things. When someone is missing in america from holland, the dutch special investigators cant help in america because america don't want that. The same thing is now happening at aruba. I hope you guys understand and dont judge before you know everything because the american media is telling things thats not based on evidence and is only been said to ruin a beautiful island.
104 -
KATHY TRUSTY
Aug 30, 2005 at 11:27 am
To ALTHOR
I feel you owe me an apology. You personally attacked me by generalizing me in a category (of which I feel you depict certain women in, because they do not fit into your criteria) due to the fact I stated my own opinions. I never attacked you personally (which I could have said you act like a typical male who suffers from acute ass-hole-ism), which I did not do.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion (which I know already, that opinions are like assholes, everybody has one). It’s just that some stink worse than others.
I felt I made my points as well. Some of yours I had agreed with, but others I felt you went overboard and became long winded, while making your point.
I just feel that in the times of war, people usually try to find a way to distract themselves from the real tragedies and pressures of the real world. I do not like the fact that we are in a war, that the Bush administration is not being honest with us, that the gas prices are soaring out of control, and that the news is becoming more frightening than ever before.
I am aware of what is going on, but so what if I am interested in the Natalee Holloway fiasco? I am no different than the people who were interested in the Lindbergh Kidnapping, even though times were at an all high then as well.
Maybe I feel this is history in the making and even though there is nothing new really being reported.
And no, I do not stayed glued to the TV all day long due to the fact I do have a life and I am constantly on the go, but when I do turn the TV on, I usually switch between CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC for about an hour to catch the news, which is usually my idea of entertainment, besides occasionally watching A&E, Discovery, and Court TV, when I get a chance.
Regular television lacks any integrity, which tells me this is what other networks see in our society (with having a lack of intellect).
You took my statement out of context and made it into something you felt was amusing by putting “(and God be damned if I don't see Joran "flayed, castrated, and burned alive at the stake whether he's guilty or not, the filthy "male!" It's my opinion!!!)”, after my comment on "It doesn't matter to me if I'm right or wrong, this is just my opinion".
Is this what you think I am thinking? I never said Joran was guilty, I said, if he is innocent, his actions and back ground begs to differ.
I feel a tragedy occurred, which should not have happened. Although I felt the parents were naive about what goes on in the real world and should have been more cautious in their decision making, when it came to their daughter going on the trip to Aruba (Which I stated on August 22, 2005). This we agree on, but this does not justify what happened to Natalee.
As the news goes on… we are finding out that there may be a pattern of other young ladies that have been drugged, attacked and raped by Joran and the Kalpoe brothers, and (now) this Fred guy. They call their gang the “pimps”, which tells me they have no respect for women of any kind.
If Beth had not got the national news involved in the first place, these other women who were afraid to come forward (maybe because of their age or for their own reasons) will shed some light on how this gang operated without any detection in the past.
It seems this was the gang’s way of operating by drugging these unsuspected young women’s drinks on their last night on the island and knowing that they could get away with raping them. This could have happened while these other girls were with their parents. Who knows, but one thing is for sure, it has happened before and the same guys were involved.
What if Joran and his gang never got caught and he came to America to go to college. Then he might have been a predator here doing the same thing to college girls.
Maybe because the news held on to this story, is the only way these other victims could have ever come forward and now it will shed some light into solving this case. Joran would have been better off if he cooperated with authorities and his father seems to be obstructing justice in this case as well by not telling what happened.
All Beth wanted was her daughter back, so she could have closure and they could have given her that. But now they have opened up a can of worms and have shown a darkside to a once happy island of paradise.
I feel a little safer knowing that if (and I say IF) Joran is a predator, I rather find out while he is over in Aruba, than before he could come to America and prey on our young college students. Don’t you?
105 -
snow
Aug 30, 2005 at 12:36 pm
alot of people have made different points and comments regarding the Natalee Holloway case and some seem to blame what happened to Natalee on her parents. Lets just say this happened to a women who was in her twenty's but was still living at home with her parents. She went to Aruba on vacation and she vanished on her lastnight there. Her parents do the same thing as Natalee's parents did and fly over to Aruba to find her. Would everyone blame her parents for being "naive" for letting her leave the house and get on a plane. People she was 18 years old and not a child anymore. Don't misunderstand i am not saying that it is all her fault because she wanted to go but it is not all her parents fault eiher. This is life and unfortunatly bad things happen all the time, i am pretty sure that when she was allowed to go her parents weren't sitting around thinking that she would not come home. We can not shelter our children forever and think that worst is going to happen. We take a chance every day walking down the street or getting in to a car. that is what life is all about, taking chances and living life to the fullest until the day we do die.
Now ALTHOR before you think about responding this is my opinion and what i think. This is not about being right or wrong thou i think you think i am wrong. again that would be your opinion :)
106 -
KATHY TRUSTY
Aug 30, 2005 at 2:10 pm
To Snow,
Like I said on August22, 2005, "Pay attention to your surroundings, know where you are and what you are doing, and be in-the-know. Most importantly don't let your guard down."
What is at fault here is a lack of common sense and being "naive". Not being in-the-know of what the "real world" is all about and pretending that the world is a safe place to live, while going through life carefree, is what set this tragedy into motion.
Some people unfortunately don't think about what goes on around them, because they are oblivious to the goings on in the world, which is exactly like turning a deaf ear and a blind eye to reality, and allows them to set themselves up to be a victim.
Sometimes people just do not think when they are away from home, when this is the time they actually should. Not knowing ones surroundings should heighten ones sense of awareness and common sense of the dangers in the world.
I do not know why just because a child turns eighteen they are all of a sudden considered an adult.
I may be wrong for feeling this way, but I consider an adult to be experienced or mature in the decisions they make and most importantly being able to handle the responsibility of taking care of their own needs without having to live or rely on their parents for support (meaning a place to eat, sleep, and live), all while having the common sense to come in out of the rain (so-to-speak).
There is something to be learned out of this tragedy and I hope we will all heed tis lesson.
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snow
Aug 30, 2005 at 2:37 pm
I am not saying that because you turn 18 that you are automatically totally responsible adult. That takes years of experience but you would think that one would have comon sense and know right from wrong.
Maybe we are all wrong in regards to what really happened that night. We are finding out information from Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers. That Van der Sloot left her on the beach or that she got in to the car because it was her choice. What if she was druged or forced to go with them. We may have it all wrong as to what really happened that night. Maybe she was so out of it that she did not know what was going on around her. Maybe if she was on the beach, she tried to get away from them and that is why that might have killed her. I pass no judgement on her actions because all the information that we get is from those three men and speculation.
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snow
Aug 30, 2005 at 2:38 pm
Kathy are you still waiting for an apology?
109 -
Althor
Aug 30, 2005 at 5:24 pm
Hello Kathy Trusty!
I would have been more than happy to apologize to you if in my comments I have offended you in any way, since my purpose in posting on these blogs is to intelligently discuss issues, and ideas in a constructive manner, and not to single out or offend anyone, but since you so aptly described me as a “typical male ass-hole -holic” I believe an apology is no longer necessary.
I also would like to take the opportunity to thank you for pointing this out to me, and let you know that I have enrolled, and are presently attending meetings at “Ass-hole-holics Annonymous” (you’d be surprised how many females attend those meetings too!).
As to your comments pertaining to my “generalizing certain women into a category,” I have always maintained that when used properly, “profiling” is a powerful tool ( its absurd to be searching a Swedish looking 86 year old grandmother at the train station, while letting through the middle eastern young man with the heavy coat in the middle of summer, with the furtive look, wearing traditional Muslim garb that is actually carrying the bomb, because it is “Politically Incorrect” to “profile”him!), so if the shoe fits...wear it.
You have made your points, as well as we all have here, but if you choose to distract yourself with the “Natalee Holloway Media Circus-Soap Opera Melodrama-Reality Show” because you find it interesting ( the same way someone “likes” an Agatha Christy novel that is) and prefer it to watching reports about a “war” you don’t like going bad (because of the increasing lack of support of people like you, who just want to turn it into another “Viet-Nam,” something the enemy has been counting on all along) that were we to loose would have dire consequences, and repercussions the world round, that would be perfectly fine if said coverage was been shown on “Unsolved Mysteries,” “The Aruba Files,” or “Aruba’s most Wanted,” but
it DOES NOT BELONG anymore in our news channels at the expense of other more crucial, and critical developments!
As to your assertions that “television programming lacks any integrity, which tells you this is what networks see in our society: lack of intellect” (on the part of the viewing public), I couldn’t agree with you more, and would add that this is at the crux of the problem, and why such an enormous amount of unwarranted coverage has been given the Natalee case.
The networks could care less about Natalee, or the War in Iraq as institutions, but they do care “exceedingly” about profits (“ratings”), and if the banality, and average lack of intelligence of the general public places a “premium” on the Natalee Circus, at the expense of the other, hey...so be it!
That after the incessant barrage of negative reporting, the rumors, and the innuendos the media, ravenous for new “tidbits” of information about the case to throw the viewers to keep their audiences salivating like Pavlov’s dogs at the sound of a bell, and Beth’s ever-increasingly melodramatic and paranoiac performances and antics throughout this whole ordeal, Joran would get a fair trial is almost inconceivable at this point!
The evidence against him is mainly one of “association,” since he had the misfortune of being one of the last three to be seen with Natalee . And as to discrepancies in his “Depositions,” after being interrogated 14 hours a day for two months, I can’t imagine how he could remain sane, much less wonder about some discrepancies in his statements!
Fueled by Beth and the media’s “deceitful” reporting, their “captive” audiences have been worked-up to a frenzy of “bloodlust” for this young man. Wether he’s guilty or not, he has already been convicted in the court of public opinion, and I
accurately portrayed how many women in that audience feel: “God be damned if I don't see Joran flayed, castrated, and burned alive at the stake whether he's guilty or not, the filthy "male!" It's my opinion!!!” (They subconsciously may be trying to redress wrongs they feel have been committed against them as women by abusive males I suppose, hence their identifying with Beth and Natalee so much).
I have repeatedly stated that this is a tragedy which could have been easily prevented by a bit of parental discretion on Beth’s part, and by some common sense on the part of both, she, and her daughter, but as I have voiced this numerous times before, I won’t expound; no sense in beating a dead horse! As Roger Whittaker used to sing: “...there’s none so blind as those who will not see...”
And as to those teenagers calling themselves “Pimps” and preying upon helpless girls, who they drug, and induce into a life of depravity in Aruba, I do agree that if it is true, it is a heinous crime that Aruban authorities must get to the bottom of, put an end to, and prosecute the guilty! But pray, isn’t the same sort of thing happening on many corners of every one of our own American towns, and cities, as we speak, or who do you think those kids “modeled” themselves after (just take a look at your average “Rap” video on TV, or drive down to the “inner city” and you’ll see!!!)??? And be mindful, that not all the girls are “victimized” but have chosen to let themselves be victimized to satisfy their addictions!
Perhaps we should have Aruban authorities come over and investigate. That way they can keep not only Joran, but those other on every street corner here in America, from preying on our young college students (who by the way go out of their way to “emulate” them)!
Althor
P.S. Your response to Snow was excellent! Such insight seems paradoxical in the face of some other of your assertions, almost as if coming from two different individuals! Women! we'll never make them out no matter how much we try!!!
A.
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Nina Marie
Aug 30, 2005 at 5:48 pm
1. I realize there are abbreviations commonly in use on the internet.
2. Still, most of you can't spell worth a crap or use correct grammar or punctuation.
3. The reason the Natalee Holloway story has gotten so much publicity is because there are strong reasons to believe governmental (judicial) corruption limited to investigation in the crucial first hours and days after Natalee went missing.
4. In America, if anyone goes missing, of any nationality, a professional investigation will take place.
5. Those of us with legal backgrounds are understandably both fascinated and frustrated by this case.
6. There are still many places on the television to get in-depth coverage of the war in Irag, the war on terrorism, hurricanes, immigration reform, sending our jobs overseas, etc. If you can't find them, you aren't looking very hard. (And I only get one cable channel which is CNN.)
7. I am now 47 years old, but in college I used to go to the cllubs in Los Angeles (I live in Arizona). A couple of times either my roommate or I would go to someone's house after the bar closed to have a nightcap. We never speent the night and we always got home safely. Looking back on it, I shouldn't have done it. But MANY of us have, and NONE of us would deserve to be gang-raped and murdered for it!
111 -
Althor
Aug 30, 2005 at 7:27 pm
Hello Nina!
Natalee did not deserve to be gang-raped, or murdered period!
But that should not gloss over the fact that it was her lack of judgement which made her more vulnerable, and a likely target, and helped set these events in motion. Also, you are “misrepresenting” facts in your statements!
In the first place, when Natalee was first reported missing in Aruba, she was thought possibly to have ran away, was thought to be somewhere in the island partying (as has often been the case with other missing teenagers visiting in the past), and was even believed to have been “kidnaped” at first by none other than Beth herself if you recall, rather than the “alleged” victim of “gang rape” and “murder;” something which is only a probable conjecture, but that there is no solid evidence to support.
Therefore the Aruban authorities, which needless to say are not as well versed in dealing with “murders,” “gang rapes,” “assaults,” and “violence” as we routinely are here in the States,
were not as”hawkish” in pursuing those avenues at first. This does not imply of itself any “conspiracy” or “cover-up”, and I would like to remind you that the Chief of Police who is friends to Paulus Van Der Sloot, recluse himself from the case as soon as Joran was brought in for questioning, to insure the impartiality of the proceedings.
The on-going Aruban investigation is “professional,” in spite of your salacious comments, and should have been allowed to come to a conclusion, before being pre-empted from the start by the “sensationalist update” ravenous media, and the negative barrage of paranoid comments incessantly made by Beth and her camp!
Secondly, another “misrepresentation” you made is to assert that there were other places to get “in-depth” coverage of other news, and developments while this “media circus” fiasco has been going on!
The only two pundits not to have engaged in “undue” coverage of Natalee, and Aruba, were Britt Hume of Fox, and Lou Dobbs of CNN for which I highly commend them! As for the rest, theirs has been a veritable flood of “Natalee” coverage night after night, hashing and rehashing the same old stale facts, rumors, and innuendos for three months now!
On Fox, the O’Reilly Factor touches on Natalee and Aruba at least once nightly, some times twice. Hannity & Colmes devotes at least three segments of their show to interviewing Beth and her cronies every night, with none of them having anything new to say! Greta “On the Record,” has devoted entire whole shows to this farce, and regularly devotes several segments to the story every night, even through coverage of the London bombings, or of the current hurricane coverage. Geraldo, again has dedicated whole shows to this fracas, and on CNN Larry King has devoted so many shows to it, and made of it such a stink, that Bob Costas, who occasionally sits-in for him, refused to host two weeks ago, because producers would not change the “contents” of the programming: one hour of uninterrupted “Beth Fest!” And you presume to tell me that coverage of this Natalee “non-news” item has not been over the top, excessive, intrusive, improper, unjustified, irresponsible, and nauseating??? Get real!!!
I still agree with you though, that most of us Americans can’t spell worth a damn, and that it is difficult for us to follow a sentence that runs longer than your average line at the Mc Donald’s menu, but some of us actually use punctuation to contour, and mold, words and sentences into meaningful expressions full of emotion, and foreboding, rather than the grammatically correct austere wordings of some contract (with which I believe you may be all too familiar), so that I would say to you, why don’t you go and pick up a copy of “Ulysses” and start correcting James Joyce!!!
Althor
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KATHY TRUSTY
Aug 31, 2005 at 10:31 am
To ALTHOR,
Again you did not read what I originally wrote "I never attacked you personally (which I could have said you act like a typical male who suffers from acute ass-hole-ism), which I did not do."
This would have been a personal attack (IF I chose to go that route, which I did not). I did not feel it necessary to attack you, because this is not the kind of person I felt you were. You are more intelligent than that. The only thing that bothered me was that you allowed your intelligence to drop by making personal attacks.
So I will except your original apology.
I agree with your comment "The networks could care less about Natalee, or the War in Iraq as institutions, but they do care “exceedingly” about profits (“ratings”)" It is a ratings game.
I do not totally agree with your comment "I accurately portrayed how many women in that audience feel: “God be damned if I don't see Joran flayed, castrated, and burned alive at the stake whether he's guilty or not, the filthy "male!" It's my opinion!!!” (They subconsciously may be trying to redress wrongs they feel have been committed against them as women by abusive males I suppose, hence their identifying with Beth and Natalee so much). This is not necessarily true for all women. Please do not include me in that accurate portrail or "profiling".
I am not adverse to the war situation for my father fought in Vietnam, a war I felr went on for too long. The war in Iraq needs all the support it can get, yet I pray this war will be over soon and will serve it's cause before anymore young american's die.
I agree with you that there are a great deal of teenagers who get into "rap" videos and want to “emulate” them, that maybe the case with Joran. Who can really say?
It's a shame to know that our young want to "emulate" such low-life thugs and think it is glorious to do so.
Your rebuttal (if I may) to Nina, was OUTSTANDING!
113 -
Nina
Aug 31, 2005 at 10:57 am
To Althor:
You have your verbose style and I have my straight-to-the point style. Whatever floats your boat. I still vehemently disagree with you on a few things. The initial coverage of the missing Natalee Holloway focused on the two black men. When it came to light that this was taking all suspicion away from Joran, the Kaloes and Paulus it began to make a lot of us suspicious that they were able to so quickly and easily deflect the suspicion off of them and on to two guards who were complete innocent of wrongdoing. When we learned of the judge-in-training position of Paulus V.D.S., this only added to suspicion. The fact that the policechief or whoever recused himself, means nothing. Corruption can happen behind the scenes (where is usually does.) Why wasn't Paulus' house THOROUGHLY searched? Only Joran's apartment (which is on the V.D.S. property) was searched.
I also disagree with you, and this is deeply philosophical, on your contention about putting one's self at risk for a possible crime makes one at fault if such a crime should occur. This is at its root a question on good vs. evil. NOTHING excuses EVIL behavior! NOTHING!
And by the way, if Joran did leave Natalee on the beach in a very intoxicated state (even if she hadn't also been drugged - which she may have been), what kind of young man does that make him? Most young men that I have known would have made sure such a girl got home safely because that is the right thing to do.
I realize this is my personal belief, but I thing JORAN is a selfish, evil, reprobate. Just look at his slimy father - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. By the way, Joran was scheduled to start college in the U.S. Do we want someone like him in one of our colleges. I know I don't
Oh, one last thing, before I ever had satellite T.V. I got most of my news from PBS' The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer. I still watch it for the high level of discussion of the issues.
114 -
snow
Aug 31, 2005 at 11:43 am
HI THERE ALTHOR,
HAVEN'T SPOKE TO YOU IN A WHILE AND WAS JUST WONDERING HOW YOU ARE MAKING OUT AMONG ALL THESE WOMEN. I REALLY DO MISS ARGUING WITH YOU BUT REALLY WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT. EVERYONE BASICALLY BELIEVES THAT THE POINTS THAT THEY MAKE OR THOUGHTS THAT THEY HAVE ARE CORRECT. WHO CAN ARGUE WITH THAT. I WILL ADMIT THAT I DO LIKE READING UP ON ALL THE POSTS THOU AND KEEPING UP TO SPEED ON THE NATALEE CASE AND I AM BEING VERY ENTERTAINED AS WELL
WELL ALTHOR U DON'T SEEM TOO BE AS BIG OF A JERK AS I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT! HAVE A GREAT DAY! :)
115 -
momma
Aug 31, 2005 at 11:53 am
I have been reading all thesse blogs and here are my thoughts:
rumor has it that someone was out of control in aruba and arguing with their friends....
It is possible that the suspect left someone on the beach....tried to bring someone home...and someone was nasty and b...chy and suspect finally gave up and just left someone...suspect had to go to school you know...and, if suspect did do any wrong to or with someone...would suspect be bragging about being with someone the next day....?
All of the facts in the case have come from runor and innuendo mostly supplied by people who weren't even on the island
what is a fact is that there are millions of dollars being made by this media frenzy....
There is still not a single fact that proves there was a murder...
116 -
KATHY TRUSTY
Aug 31, 2005 at 1:53 pm
To NINA you stated "2. Still, most of you can't spell worth a crap or use correct grammar or punctuation."
My compliments on your spelling and grammar, how does it feel to be like the rest of us.
To SNOW, aaahhhh that was so sweet, what you said to Althor. He is not so bad after all.
117 -
KATHY TRUSTY
Aug 31, 2005 at 2:07 pm
To MOMMA you stated "what is a fact is that there are millions of dollars being made by this media frenzy...."
I agree, there is a lot of money being made while feeding the media machine, but my question is...Does the media ever give money to help causes, let's say like funding for finding missing and expolited children, helping the homeless (that can not watch their news broadcast), or hurricane victims, who have just lost everything they lived their lives for?
The answer (in my opinion) probably a small portion goes to needy causes and a medium portion goes to political campaigns, while a greater portion goes to profits (that is after everyone gets paid).
The fact is you will never hear the news reporting about the news does with their money.
118 -
Althor
Aug 31, 2005 at 2:53 pm
Ah me! Turns out I'm a "little" jerk instead of a "big jerk"...and size does matter!!!
Althor
119 -
snow
Aug 31, 2005 at 3:29 pm
ALTHOR, I AM SORRY YOU AREN'T A JERK SWEETIE! I ACTUALLY HAVE GOTTEN TO KNOW YOU ABIT THROUGH YOUR POSTS AND I SEEM TO BE QUITE FOND OF YOU! I ACTUALLY LOOK FOR YOUR POSTS TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY FOR THE DAY! BE NICE SWEETIE :)
120 -
Althor
Aug 31, 2005 at 3:36 pm
You know what they say: "Momma is always right," and so she is again!!!
The only thing is that Momma chose to focus on all the millions "being made" by the media, and others (not only by the media folks, check out Amazon.com, and e-bay: Natalee Bracelets, "T" shirts, posters, pictures autographed by Beth showing her and her daughter together, and other "official" Natalee paraphernalia from Beth and the Twitty camp $$$$. Of course, all of the proceeds are for the search and rescue efforts, and to pay the lawyers etc. Right!!!), while I would choose to focus on all the millions being "wasted" by impoverished Aruba on this wild goose chase, and they get criticized, ridiculed, and their tourism industry destroyed in the process to boot! All of it impelled by the Twittys and their "media circus" (imagine if only a fraction of the resources been wasted on Natalee would be used to locate other missing persons, what wondrous results we may have! How ironic!)!!!
Althor
121 -
TIRED
Aug 31, 2005 at 4:35 pm
On all of the blogs dedicated to this you are not permitted to say anything that they don't want said. People are banned and chastised, in the united states mind you, for having an opinion or theory that they don't want heard....do you think that this is good? I don't...
there is one poster named dayo on another site that has really valid theories and objections....where is he now...banned...you should read his posts they make a lot of sense.....
someone by the name of tante bet is being banned all over the internet because she is pointing our one very glaring fact...there is no proof of any murder at all....
some very sick person on another blog is demanding that the united states take over the country of aruba to do their own investigation to make sure that their suspect is definitely the one to take the fall....
there is someone else intimating that the family of the suspect is paying off the judges and then on the same blog someone else is saying that the family of the missing person is also paying the same judges...these judges are going to be rich.....each paying for their own outcome...when are the arubans and dutch going to get angry? Is their system of justice so easily corrupted...
what saddens me is that this is the only place i could post this without drinking the cool aid and thinking about what really is going on...
I agree with momma and some of the others...this is sure a money making machine...what if it turns out to be the greatest scam ever...won't the media be embarrassed...won't the bloggers be upset.....
If there is no hard core evidence to hold those boys...no evidence except that which has been manipulated beautifully by the three public relations persons hired by the family of the missing person...then they should go free...
in the beginning, until all this unsavory stuff came out, i felt terrible about this whole situation but....everyone is talking about people in power...how does one person hold an entire class of teenagers in a small town hostage, take all their photos of their nice vacation and then forbid them to talk about it....? that my friends is the question...
In the court of public opinion....people are starting to think and they are not thinking so well about the "ugly american" and the accusations destroying the people and the island of aruba.
122 -
Althor
Aug 31, 2005 at 5:16 pm
Hello Nina!
“Verbose”??? You must be watching too much Bill O’Reilly on Fox! But anyway, I’ll try to keep it “pithy.”
Ok, as to the two “black men” originally brought in by authorities to be questioned at the beginning of the investigation in Aruba, I would like to remind you that the ones that made a huge “stink” about them, calling them “thugs,” and “drug dealers,” and demeaning their families categorizing them as being “low-life” involved with “drugs” and “crime” on the island, was the “media, ” our friend O’Reilly being one of the most “vociferous” amongst them, for which, by the way, he has never publicly apologized on the air to them, or to anyone!
That there is a greater possibility of collusion in a small tightly knitted community, than in a sprawling metropolis is true, however, up to this point (as has been also true of many other aspects of this case) there is no corroborating evidence to support claims of such, other than your “assumptions.”
Which also brings a good point to bear, seems that it is not only “beauty” which is in the eye of the beholder, but that also “truth” seems to be highly “subjective” to many people. I can provide you with facts to rebut your arguments, but I can not make you accept them ( you may drive a mule to water, but...).
As to your deep “philosophical” disagreement with my contentions about not putting oneself in harm’s way by avoiding situations that would make us more vulnerable to be “victims” of crime, since you said that at its root is the question of “good vs. evil,” and nothing excuses “evil” behavior, I’ll let you discuss those nice philosophical subtleties at length with the three nice young men covered in tattoos, wearing bandanas to cover their faces from “Mara Salvatrucha” waving knives and guns down the alley that you took at 2:AM with $10,000 worth of “sparkling” jewelry on you, in your skimpy, provocative outfit, while I, being more “ignorant,” but pragmatic, promptly head in the equal but opposite direction, ok?
Now, since you’ve touched upon philosophy, I think it is worth mentioning, that in an amazing show of foresight that seems to have bridged the intervening centuries “prophetically,” and that rivals in its incisiveness, and insight the prophecies of Nostradamus, Socrates said to his followers, as if he could have seen all the inordinate media coverage of the Natalee Holloway fiasco in his mind’s eye: “Too much of anything, is too much for me!” Well said old man!
Furthermore, you show how “prejudiced” you beliefs are by calling Joran a “selfish,” “evil,” “reprobate,” and his father “slimy” ( how can you call Joran “selfish” when he shared Natalee with his friends, and Paulus may have been sweaty, but that doesn’t make him necessarily “slimy”) based only on the perceptions you have from “biased” media coverage! Do you personally know them perhaps?
Though Joran may be guilty of Natalee’s disappearance, and may very well be a “spoiled brat,” a “cad,” and a “reprobate,” (as you say) I find it very unlikely that at his age ( he’s actually younger than Natalee) he would be a “hardened,” “cold-blooded,” “premeditated,” “murderer,” a la “BTK,” and most likely what happened to Natalee, if it involved him, was an accident in spite of whatever cover-ups may have followed.
And Paulus Van Der Sloot, though highly culpable for not having restrained his son from indulging in such “wild partying” as has been the cause of his woes, is only a father desperate to protect, and save his son, just like any other father would!
Anyway, seems after all we do share something in common, since I also have watched the “News Hour with Jim Lehrer” for years, find it one of the most credible, and reliable sources for news, and consider it the newscast with probably the highest journalistic integrity of them all.
Althor
123 -
kap
Aug 31, 2005 at 5:54 pm
Even though one can never condone the kidnapping and killing of another human being, shouldn't some of the blame be placed on Natalie if she voluntarily got into a car with three young men she hardly knew and went of with them, even though I hope she will turn up alive and ok, people have to take resposibility for their own safety
and beware of their associations
kap
124 -
kap
Aug 31, 2005 at 6:01 pm
Even though one can never condone the kidnapping and killing of another human being, shouldn't some of the blame be placed on Natalie if she voluntarily got into a car with three young men she hardly knew and went of with them, even though I hope she will turn up alive and ok, people have to take resposibility for their own safety
and beware of their associations
kap
125 -
sheri
Aug 31, 2005 at 11:30 pm
Althor, Although I find your mind original, quick and logical...........perhaps too bright for the constant blogs, surely you are missing the obvious. First of all, I think most experts have agreed that its a type of genius that Natalie's parents have used to keep her name in the media.That keeps the energy and focus on a case.....keeps the authorities on their " proverbial toes". Secondly, if you cannot intuitively see the character and strength this family posesses in dealing with th is enormous tragedy? I doubt I could have that type of grace under such a tragedy. Thirdly, the victim is Natalie. And , any shred of common sense will tell you that Van Der Sloot and his " homies" would not have changed their stories so many times without having something to hide. Many experts have conceded to this conclusion. But , lastly, perhaps what you are really overlooking is that this is real news........a human drama and it obviously brought ratings,,,,,,,,or it would not have continued. So, your whining has taken epidimic proportions just because Fox responded to most of the viewers and not just you.....so like a man, who has had his routine upset? Maybe you need to apply that brilliant mind and verbage to some real challenges( if you don't already}
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - KATHY TRUSTY
To ALTHOR
MY STATEMENT:
"It's like saying just because a woman is dressed a certain way or goes out to a bar with her friends, that she asks to be raped."
YOUR RESPONSE:
"I am sorry to burst your bubble, but studies have shown that in fact, a large number of victims of rape were in fact dressing "provocatively" on the days the attacks took place.
Far be it from me to justify the rapes because of these facts, but there is a certain correlation between "cause" and "effect," specially when it has to deal with the more , "bestial," and "irrational" part of our natures, and what triggers those irrational responses.
So common sense dictates, "don't ask for it, and chances are you won't get it," or "don't stick you hand into the lion's maw, and expect him to lick it!"
MY RESPONSE TO YOUR RESPONSE:
Well, I disagree with your response totally!! Are you saying that because women wear bikinis on a beach that they are dressing to "provocatively" and they diserve to be attacked or raped?
I don't know where you get your information on "studies have shown that in fact, a large number of victims of rape were in fact dressing "provocatively" on the days the attacks took place." I hate to burst your bubble but studies are based on statistics, and statistics are based on partial information collected in a data base, meaning it is not the whole truth.
Not every woman who has been attacked and raped reports the rape due to the fact that they feel like less of a person or that they do not want to relive the whole experience with the public, so how can the "Studies" be accurate?
It should not matter what a person wears. What may be considered dressing to "provocatively" to one person is not to another. I guess you expect all women to wear boot leggings and long dresses, with long sleeves to cover every inch of their bodies, just like they did a hundred years ago. But guess what women were raped back then too.
Rape is not about what a person is wearing, it is about what goes on in the mind of the rapist. It is about control. It is about one person having the power over another. It is a vicious and brutel crime performed by s deviate, demented, sick individual to fulfill his twisted fantasies. Ever heard of BTK?
I have read articles of young men entering, attacking and raping elderly women (between ages 65 to 85) in their own beds, while they were asleep. So I guess the elderly lady was dressing to "provocatively" in her cotton night gown and got what she asked for, right?
I am sure I did not take your words out of context, because those were your words.
If I am reading you right, you look at the pictures of Natalee Holloway in her dance uniform performing at a high school football game, and think to yourself she diserved to be raped.
If that is your opinion, I guess YOU FEEL all cheerleaders, paton twirlers, pom-pom girls, models, movie stars and bikini wearing women of the world deserves to be attacked and raped. Why not? you said it yourself "don't ask for it, and chances are you won't get it," or "don't stick you hand into the lion's maw, and expect him to lick it!"
Common sense is lacking on your part.
77 - snow
Kathy Trusty. I agree!!!!! But i am sure you will get a paragraph after paragraph response from that person saying how wrong you are! Just watch. CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
78 - KATHY TRUSTY
To SNOW, thank you. To answer your question, I don't think that for one moment that Natalee went to Aruba to drink and have sex. She was highly excited about graduating from high school and her exceptance into college. She simply went to Aruba with her classmates to celebrate an achievment.
She might have celebrated a little too much, but that does not mean she asked for what happened to her to take place.
Anybody who goes on vacation lets their hair down. They go on vacation to enjoy life and to escape the hum-drum of their normal everyday life.
Nobody plans to become a victim. It could happened to any one on any given day, no matter how rich or poor they are, and no matter how young or old they are.
Unfortunately there are sick predators out there you could care less who you are all they want to do is to fulfill their twisted fantasies, just like BTK did, and they act or look just like one of us. These deviate, demented, sick individuals look at everyone as a victim no matter who they are, because in their mind everybody is fair game.
Joran could be predator. Hopefully the truth will come out. Who knows. But if he is innocent, his actions and back ground begs to differ. This is why the media is in a frenzy to know more about the case. To get the story out. To help the truth to prevail.
79 - KATHY TRUSTY
It doesn't matter to me if I am right or wrong, this is just my opinion.
I stated what I felt was needed to be said, to try to put things in perspective about how the world is a very dangerous place to live in, that's all.
Everybody has a right to their opinion, right or wrong, but know body has the right to put them down for having an opinion. This is what makes the world interesting. By having a opinion, one might give wisdom to one who is clueless and insensitive to what is going on around them.
Everybody around the world learns something new everyday. And then sometimes they wished they had not.
80 - Althor
Dear Kathy Trusty,
Your assertion that “studies” are based on statistics, and that said statistics can’t be relied on, because of all the other variables you pointed out, means that every scientific study ever made that relied on statistics, is totally and completely invalid!
I can’t think of anyone else but you, who has dealt such a devastating blow to the “scientific method in the last three hundred years!”
Further, I am sorry to have to “amuse” Snow with my “paragraph, after paragraph responses,” but though you may fault me of anything else, at least I have tried to express my views, and explain the reasoning behind them, however faulty in your opinion, in an orderly sequence, and an intelligent manner.
It is true that “rape” can also be an expression of dominance, as you pointed out, and that in any particular case there may be present any combination of proportions of lust, and dominance involved as the motivators for the nefarious act.
However, from your comments, as well as those of the previous poster who accused me of “being a man” (which I am, and feel no necessity to apologize for whatsoever), as well as those running in the thread of the arguments of most pro-Beth, pro-Natalee bloggers here, and in other sites, a quite revealing pattern emerges:
It seems that Natalee’s and Beth’s most ardent supporters are women with certain characteristics.
These women generally see nothing wrong with devoting our news coverages 24/7 to the events “not taking” place in Aruba, since in the face of all the “scant” evidence available, and the few “significant” developments in the case there is really nothing new to report (hence the hashing , and rehashing of stale old facts, rumors and innuendos every night for months now by all the pundits), at the expense of not reporting on other more pressing matters such as the war in Iraq, the Supreme Court confirmation, or the growing nuclear threat from North Korea, and Iran etc. When you point this to them they all seem to take it personally, which denotes an unnatural emotional involvement on their part.
These women apparently, also have other traits in common, exemplified by some of your comments: They seem for the most part to see “males” (as implied by the comments of the previous poster) as threatening, deceivers, traitors, and oppressors, and not as “equal partners,” often referring to them as “men” in an implied derogatory manner, who, in their inferred opinion, exercise “ dominance”over them, and other women (poor victims all!) through “rape”, and “physical’ violence.
Again, from information gleaned from numerous comments of Beth / Natalee supporters, most of these women seem to be either divorced or separated, have had several failed relationships, and or are single mothers, and all seem to carry the baggage of unresolved “relationship” issues with them as a chip on their shoulder, and seem for the most part to be very unhappy with their lives!
As I pointed out they seem to make the bulk of the Beth / Natalee supporters, and seem to identify with them to the point of glossing over, excusing, or justifying any lapse of judgement on Beth’s and or Natalee’s part in setting in motion the chain of events culminating in this tragedy. To them “cause and effect,” boils down to “men” being the cause of the rape, aggression, and or abuse, with poor, victimized, brutalized women (as Natalee) as the “effect!”
Though doubtlessly women have often been brutalized in the past (as men have also), to view the interrelationship between the sexes, in such a negative, narrow minded, and prejudiced manner, is wrong, and in my opinion it is “coloring” their judgement, which explains their “unconditional” support of beth, and all things Natalee (subconsciously they seek for Natalee restitution, and revenge for her, as well as for themselves!).
In the words of a fellow blogger who just happened in plainer terms to “hit the nail on the head” this Natalee Holloway obsession is been driven by hordes of disillusioned, neurotic, overweight, women, divorced, or married several times, hungering for affection, and attention, and a sense of belonging, who, yes, demographically do exist in greater numbers in trailer parks all throughout the more rural parts of America; many of which have nothing better to do all day than medicate the "hypochondriac illness of the month", sitting all day in front of the TV, popping pills, eating "Twinkies", and blogging "chain-prayers" on the web for Natalee.
Let's face it this is the most compelling drama/adventure/mistery event they have seen on TV in quite a while (well, or at least since the Michael Jackson "Monkey Trial"), since if it wasn't for Natalee, and Beth, they'd be watching the "Home Shopping Network", and they do identify with the victim ("Poo' Lil' Ole' Me! After I gave them all three, the best years of my life that night!”)
Another factor often mentioned by these women to justify their utterly illogical positions is to fall back on the exigencies of “maternal instincts,” to justify them.
It is understandable that as a woman you have maternal instincts, which explain why you, as so many other women do, empathize so strongly with Beth. Maternal instincts are as primordial in us, as the fear of the dark. However, one need not be afraid of the dark.
Having been raised by a loving, and devoted Father, never having wanted for lack of nurturing on his part, nor ever feeling any void in my life for lack of maternal participation , I personally find, at today’s stage in our evolution, “maternal instincts” to be a bit overrated!!!
The only discernable emotional scar I bear as the result of having lacked the nurturing of my mother, is an excessive liking, almost an obsession, with women’s breasts, and of course, this most likely can be psychologically attributed to not having been breast-fed, whereby a beautiful pair of full breasts, subliminally represent to me not only sex, but nourishment as well! Ha, ha!
Sorry for the “paragraphs, after paragraph, after paragraph” Snow, I’ll be more “brutish” next time and just respond “Ughh!”
Althor
81 - Althor
Quote: "It doesn't matter to me if I'm right or wrong, this is just my opinion" (and God be damned if I don't see Joran "flayed, castrated, and burned alive at the stake wether he's guilty or not, the filthy "male!" It's my opinion!!!)
Kathy Trusty
Lo! Now its my turn to be "sexist"!
Wow! What a response! How illogically like a woman!
Althor (shaking head)
82 - amh
What I find so funny about Althor is that here he/she is relentlessly talking about how the media can't stop covering this story and how they need to move on to more important news....he can't stop talking about it him/herself! Talk about ironic. As much as you've posted on this site, Natalee's disappearance must be on your mind morning, noon, and night. If you are truly disgusted by all of the coverage, why do you keep telling us about it...I thought you were sick of it all? Althor is a hipocrite.
I am amazed myself how much the media are focusing on this story, but I chose to watch and learn about what's going on when I feel like; when I don't feel like it...I don't watch. Simple as that. I wish more victims were able to receive the same amount of coverage...in a perfect world, right? Let's ask CNN or MSN to create an "all missing person's channel all the time" to ensure every victim has a fair chance of being found! Then people like Althor won't have anything to complain about.
83 - Althor
Dear AMH,
Why do I keep complaining about the excessive coverage of the Natalee Holloway fiasco?
Simple, because they keep dishing it out, and its journalistically unjustifiable, and wrong, in the face of all the other threats , and dangers we face as a Nation.
If FOX, or CNN or MSNBC would create a "Natalee Holloway Channel," well, good, and dandy!And I wish they would, so that all you folks "Nataleeing" can go there to get 24/7 "updates" on the lack of "updates" to report in Aruba, but at this point, this case DOES NOT BELONG IN OUR NEWS CHANNELS! And I will continue to complaint about the excessive coverage, so long as the media keeps indulging in it! I am trying to build consensus about the travesty!
Althor
84 - Althor
One humble observation to my fellow Blogcritics bloggers.
I thought that we were supposed to be, quote: "a sinister cabal of superior bloggers...etc, etc," but lately, it seems we are being invaded by the "Mountain Brook Beth Holloway Twitty all girl wrestling team!"
Lord have mercy!!!
Althor (shaking head again!)
85 - snow
MY ADVICE TO ALL THE WOMEN. IGNORE THE JERK. HE IS THE ONE WHO MOST LIKELY SITS HOME ALL DAY WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THEN TO WRITE THIS LONG WINDED RESPONSES WHICH REALLY IS A BUNCH OF B.S BY THE TIME YOU GET TO THE END, IF YOU MAKE IT TO THE END. HE IS THE ONE THAT MOST LIKELY HAS NO PARTNER IN HIS LIFE AND THAT IS WHY HE COMES ACROSS (TO ME ANYWAYS)AS A BITTER LONELY MAN.
ALTHOR HOW DARE YOU ASSUME WHAT OUR LIVES ARE OR ARE NOT LIKE. IF I WERE YOU I WOULD STOP WRITING THE COMMENTS CASUE NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. AS I AM SURE YOU HAVE NOTICED PEOPLE FIRE BACK AT YOU AND YOU SEEM TO FEED OFF OF IT. DON'T BOTHER TO RESPOND. YOU DESERVE TO BE ALONE AND IF YOU ARE NOT I FEEL SORRY FOR YOUR WIFE/HUSBAND OR GIRLFRIEND/BOYFRIEND. MY ADVISE TO YOU IS TO TURN THE T.V OFF.
86 - vinnie
I agree with some of the comments that were presented here. But realitically, the fact is that someone's daughter is missing. If all of you here could be in her parents place, WHAT WOULD ALL OF YOU WANT TO HAVE HAPPEN? Your children are your life, and once your children are taken away without reasoning, you have no life.
87 - snow
Vinnie don't ask Althor that he is not human!!!!!!!!!!
88 - Althor
Yes Snow,
The Beth bitch stole my Fox, and I want it back!!! Waaaaaaahhh!!!
Now get back to your "Chain Prayers" for Natalee.
"Unhumanly" yours,
Althor
89 - snow
Yes ALTHOR you got something right for a change you are "unhuman"!!!!!
90 - Flounder
AGAIN !!!! Does anyone have any recent news on Natalie? Someone told me Joran said that someone raped and murdered her.. I have no idea. Has anything new been found? I'd appreciate if anyone knows.. thanks !!! :-)
91 - Althor
Wow Snow! I must have hit close to home whith my assessment of you, since you "bristled" all up, and got all “paranoiac” about it!!!
You know, is so funny how you twisted (just the same way Beth does, twisting so many things about her daughter, the investigation, and Aruba!) an anecdote I “injected” into my response in order to give it a bit of a “humorous” turn, about how I like “big breasted women” because I was “bottle-fed,” into this “dark,” “psychological trauma” which supposedly has “warped” my soul, and “twisted” me into this “unhuman monster” (the preferred choice is inhuman, by the way, not unhuman) incapable of “sympathizing” with (falling prey to) Beth Holloway Twittys impassioned pleas (“Drama Queen performances”) on behalf of her “sainted” (no comments!) daughter!
As a matter of fact I was being facetious, for the sake of introducing a bit of “humor” into my “long winded” response, as I previously said; but in reality both, my mother and father, both, raised me, and as a matter of fact, they just celebrated their 50th Wedding Anniversary last April, so IN YOUR FACE!
However, I do admit I always identified more with my Father, than with my Mom, something she always teases me about even to this day saying that I love him better. So there you go.
I’m really sorry you find my responses “long winded.” It is so ironic that you “women” are the ones usually accusing us “men” of being “uncommunicative!” Here I am trying to express my views in a clear, precise, and intelligible manner, and this is the thanks I get for it!!!
Well, at least it is a consolation, that I’m not only able “write,” but also “read” a bit more words than those strung on your average “Mc Donald’s Menu” (and make sense of them too!)!!!
In response to your “characterizing ” me as “sitting at home all day with nothing better to do,” you could not be farther from the truth! In fact I actually am a pretty busy person, however I can afford the luxury of occasionally taking a peek at, or posting on a blog, because I “multitask,” though I doubt you would know what that is.
As to my loneliness, I have raised six children, and I’m still married to the “wife of my youth” (boy, what endurance!), whom I married when I was seventeen years old (hope you can say the same about your relationships!). And if there is something I need, it would seem to me to be a bit of TIME BY MYSELF every now and then (after changing so many Pampers for years, do I have to start all over again with the grandkids?!?).
Maybe I should take off for a bit, and take up fly-fishing!
By the way, I would not have allowed any one of our daughters to go anywhere away from home (while they were living at home), without their mother accompanying them in the first place, much less to a “Girls Gone Wild Party” in Aruba!!!
And secondly, had such an unfortunate tragedy happened to us, I would availed myself of every mean to find her, and unlike Beth and Jughead would have been digging in the pile of landfill garbage myself even with my bear hands if I had to, rather than sitting by the sidelines talking to the “media,” and would not have left a single stone “unturned!”
But, I would not have denigrated, and dishonored the memory of my daughter, by turning her disappearance into nothing more than a “media circus,” a “soap opera” exposing our innermost private feelings, our grief, anxiety, and despair, to a “morbid, captivated audience” for “entertainment,” or engaged in performing denigrating “staged” antics in front of cameras always following our every move, as if this was nothing more than another “TV Reality Show” to keep the “limelight” on us, all the while dragging my daughter’s image, by the media’s “prying,” “sensationalist” very nature, through the mud into the gutter as Beth has! I say, Shame on you Beth!!!
Anyhow, I’m sorry if I mischaracterized you in any way (which I believe I didn’t or you wouldn’t have jumped the way you did about it!), but here again the old adage applies: “ If you walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and look like a duck...” then you must be a “duck,” or a Beth Holloway Twitty “unconditional” supporter! Ha, ha!
But let me make a helpful suggestion: why put up with the likes of such “heartless sons-of-bitches” as “I” in this blog, when you can go to this other site called “Nat’s Place,” where they do not allow any “dissent” with Beth and her supporters; have a song that was actually written, and orchestrated, by one of the members of the blog in “honor” of Natalee Holloway, which you can download for free; have “Chain Prayers for Natalee and Beth on the hour, every hour; and carry on “collections” to support Beth’s (shopping, and fine dining in Aruba) on going, desperate search for her daughter in Aruba on a daily basis???
That’s all they talk there! You should check it out. I think you’d like it!
Tata !
“Inhumanly” yours,
Althor
P.S. Now, my wife is bugging me saying: “ See, even she feels sorry that I’m still married to you!” Ha, ha (this is another joke now, don’t go and bend it all out of shape again into some “dark,” and “twisted” bullshit or other. Ok?)!
92 - snow
Althor you clearly don't like it when people like myself have said something to you and i would appericiate it if you stopped "assuming" things about other people. I myself have 2 beautiful children and a wonderful husband. He himself has posted on the this site and thinks that your "responses" and "thoughts" are disgusting. It makes it even worse to know that you do have children and a wife. Poor things. Or is that another one of your stories that you created up in your "twisted" head again. If so you really should go talk to someone about that. lol Why are you wasting your time on me when you could be talking about Natalee Holloway. I feel so honoured that you think about me.lmao You don't make me mad or fire me up i just think that you are outrageous and i am sure that i am not the only one. If you took alook i am sure you also can find a website that has "Beth" and "Natalee" haters! I believe here we want to find out the DAILY events into her disapperance!!!
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)
93 - snow
FLOUNDER YES the KALPOE brothers have been rearressted. It happened Friday morning i believe. No one has been charged yet.
94 - hyperqube
And, have you seen the interviews on fox news with deepak’s mother. I mean if it isn’t so obvious that these are the biggest mama’s boys in Aruba. That’s funny since we’ve somehow transformed them into rapist/murderers.
Where is a shred of evidence to back up jane’s assertions? I might as well throw it in here that nataleeannholloway equals 1188, and the sums of the latitude longitude of palm beach, aruba
At 12 deg 34 min and 70 deg 2 min equals 82 and 36 which equals 118. Hey, if you take all the verses in the bible with a gematrical value of 6888, which is the number of days Natalee will be on 8/30/2005, the total length of those verses is 1818.
I can’t wait for the day, because you see a lot of people will see their own ugly pettiness in their attitude and actions. While we’re at can we connect Natalee to the whole middle of the bible controversy 118:8. Btw, never book at room at Holiday Inn which equals 666.
95 - Althor
I thought this was a site where you could engage in "intelligent" discussions, and not another "We love you Beth! Go, go girl..." site for the terminally "groupie."
But if there is a "Hate Beth and this fiasco site" where all of Beth's antics, and that of her cronies are properly placed in perspective, and NO ONE IS CONDEMNED for having the "audacity" to criticize "St. Beth of Aruba," and her "Virgin Daughter," please let me know!!!!
Althor
96 - Althor
Quote: "I can’t wait for the day, because you see a lot of people will see their own ugly pettiness in their attitude and actions. While we’re at can we connect Natalee to the whole middle of the bible controversy 118:8. Btw, never book at room at Holiday Inn which equals 666."
So much for the "Sinister cabal of superior bloggers.." !!!!
Althor
97 - Althor
Oh, and by the way Snow, if indeed you have a husband...please send him my condolences.
"Inhumanly" yours,
Althor
98 - vinnie
I'm not one to sit around and openly discuss what is going on in the news, cause frankly, in my opinion, the news is what is making the world the way it is. People talk about not letting there kid's go see violent movies, well infact the parents are blind to the way the world real is. There is more violence on the new's then you will see in any movie. The longer this goes on with Natalie, more of this type of stuff will happen. Although some of ALTHOR'S view's I don't like, I have to agree with some thing's that he is saying. Why would any parent let there children go away knowing full well what could happen. And just so you know, Althor, this is snow's husband.
An opinion is just what it is, which is open fully for any type of discussion, any comment's or quotes are fully justified as it is only an opinion.
99 - miriam
My point, which has been lost, is that there are only 24 hours--at least in my days--in which to inform the public. The case of Natalee Holloway is in the same condition as the case of John Paul II--no new information. Let's talk about something else. Possibly something we can do something about.
This is not a criticism of Natalee, her family, or her behavior. We've all been eighteen!
100 - Althor
Excellent post Vinnie!
I apologize if in my jocoseness I may have offended your wife, or you in any way. Sometimes I make "light" of serious matters, specially when they get to the point of absurdity, in order not to get deeply depressed by the apparent futility of it all!
Glad to see there is someone with common sense at the helm.
My point, which I have so often tried to elucidate from different angles in my "long winded" posts, is that no matter how much we may personally empathize with Beth, she and the media have blown her daughter's disappearance way out of all reasonable proportion.
It is understandable that she would do it. But for the media, and for us to be paying such an enormous amount of undivided attention to this case, specially during prime time newscasts, is wrong.
There are far too many other things going on that we should be well informed about, like the growing opposition to the war in Iraq. Should we stay, or should we withdraw? " something the "Jihadists" will interpret, and "claim" as a "victory" all over the world, even further "steeling" their resolve to re-establish the "Caliphate," and further emboldening them to subdue the "Great Satan"...us!
With the anti-war movement in full swing, shouldn't we be discussing what is the best course of action to take as a Nation, and what would the consequences be, rather than what other new bit of "trash" found today in Aruba may possibly "break the case?!?!" I hope you get my point.
That is why I think the developments in Aruba have far dominated our news coverage for too long, specially when, as Miriam so aptly pointed out in her post, there is "... no new information" to report, and they hash, and rehash the same bullshit (excusez mon francais), that they have been hashing, and rehashing for the last two months!!!
Anyway, again excellent post, and my apologies.
Althor
101 - KATHY TRUSTY
To: ALTHOR
If you have complaints about the news go to these websites and complain to them. Here is a short list:
Fox News Channel
CNN.com
Today's News from MSNBC - MSNBC.com
NBC.com
ABC.com
CBS.com
I have often found it more effective to go top the source, when it comes to complaining about a real issue. How about you?
102 - Althor
Hello there again Kathy Trusty!
Too late! Already have on numerous occasions!
As a matter of fact Bill O'Reilly mentioned recently one of my "hallmark" phrases concerning this fiasco on the air: "When is enough Natalee Holloway coverage enough?". I think he might have liked the ring of it, and that's why he used it, something he gleaned from my e-mails.
Althor
103 - Frank
I don't understand you guys. Im from holland and i know aruba very well. It is terrible what happened there op aruba natalie still missing but don't blame the aruba authorities. We in holland are given mutch more better information about the case then the american media does. There have been a shipment of f16 fighter planes searching for her and there are many dutch special investigators at the island to investigate it. Aruba is a beautiful island i've lived there 6 months for school till januari 2005. It is not a crminal island it is in fact a very happy island. Don't judge things before you know the best of it. I hope natalie been found quickly, is is terrible for the parents. But believe me the aruban authorities and the dutch authorities do everything they can. They cant let the fbi help them because it is a dutch island and it will complicate a lot of things. When someone is missing in america from holland, the dutch special investigators cant help in america because america don't want that. The same thing is now happening at aruba. I hope you guys understand and dont judge before you know everything because the american media is telling things thats not based on evidence and is only been said to ruin a beautiful island.
104 - KATHY TRUSTY
To ALTHOR
I feel you owe me an apology. You personally attacked me by generalizing me in a category (of which I feel you depict certain women in, because they do not fit into your criteria) due to the fact I stated my own opinions. I never attacked you personally (which I could have said you act like a typical male who suffers from acute ass-hole-ism), which I did not do.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion (which I know already, that opinions are like assholes, everybody has one). It’s just that some stink worse than others.
I felt I made my points as well. Some of yours I had agreed with, but others I felt you went overboard and became long winded, while making your point.
I just feel that in the times of war, people usually try to find a way to distract themselves from the real tragedies and pressures of the real world. I do not like the fact that we are in a war, that the Bush administration is not being honest with us, that the gas prices are soaring out of control, and that the news is becoming more frightening than ever before.
I am aware of what is going on, but so what if I am interested in the Natalee Holloway fiasco? I am no different than the people who were interested in the Lindbergh Kidnapping, even though times were at an all high then as well.
Maybe I feel this is history in the making and even though there is nothing new really being reported.
And no, I do not stayed glued to the TV all day long due to the fact I do have a life and I am constantly on the go, but when I do turn the TV on, I usually switch between CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC for about an hour to catch the news, which is usually my idea of entertainment, besides occasionally watching A&E, Discovery, and Court TV, when I get a chance.
Regular television lacks any integrity, which tells me this is what other networks see in our society (with having a lack of intellect).
You took my statement out of context and made it into something you felt was amusing by putting “(and God be damned if I don't see Joran "flayed, castrated, and burned alive at the stake whether he's guilty or not, the filthy "male!" It's my opinion!!!)”, after my comment on "It doesn't matter to me if I'm right or wrong, this is just my opinion".
Is this what you think I am thinking? I never said Joran was guilty, I said, if he is innocent, his actions and back ground begs to differ.
I feel a tragedy occurred, which should not have happened. Although I felt the parents were naive about what goes on in the real world and should have been more cautious in their decision making, when it came to their daughter going on the trip to Aruba (Which I stated on August 22, 2005). This we agree on, but this does not justify what happened to Natalee.
As the news goes on… we are finding out that there may be a pattern of other young ladies that have been drugged, attacked and raped by Joran and the Kalpoe brothers, and (now) this Fred guy. They call their gang the “pimps”, which tells me they have no respect for women of any kind.
If Beth had not got the national news involved in the first place, these other women who were afraid to come forward (maybe because of their age or for their own reasons) will shed some light on how this gang operated without any detection in the past.
It seems this was the gang’s way of operating by drugging these unsuspected young women’s drinks on their last night on the island and knowing that they could get away with raping them. This could have happened while these other girls were with their parents. Who knows, but one thing is for sure, it has happened before and the same guys were involved.
What if Joran and his gang never got caught and he came to America to go to college. Then he might have been a predator here doing the same thing to college girls.
Maybe because the news held on to this story, is the only way these other victims could have ever come forward and now it will shed some light into solving this case. Joran would have been better off if he cooperated with authorities and his father seems to be obstructing justice in this case as well by not telling what happened.
All Beth wanted was her daughter back, so she could have closure and they could have given her that. But now they have opened up a can of worms and have shown a darkside to a once happy island of paradise.
I feel a little safer knowing that if (and I say IF) Joran is a predator, I rather find out while he is over in Aruba, than before he could come to America and prey on our young college students. Don’t you?
105 - snow
alot of people have made different points and comments regarding the Natalee Holloway case and some seem to blame what happened to Natalee on her parents. Lets just say this happened to a women who was in her twenty's but was still living at home with her parents. She went to Aruba on vacation and she vanished on her lastnight there. Her parents do the same thing as Natalee's parents did and fly over to Aruba to find her. Would everyone blame her parents for being "naive" for letting her leave the house and get on a plane. People she was 18 years old and not a child anymore. Don't misunderstand i am not saying that it is all her fault because she wanted to go but it is not all her parents fault eiher. This is life and unfortunatly bad things happen all the time, i am pretty sure that when she was allowed to go her parents weren't sitting around thinking that she would not come home. We can not shelter our children forever and think that worst is going to happen. We take a chance every day walking down the street or getting in to a car. that is what life is all about, taking chances and living life to the fullest until the day we do die.
Now ALTHOR before you think about responding this is my opinion and what i think. This is not about being right or wrong thou i think you think i am wrong. again that would be your opinion :)
106 - KATHY TRUSTY
To Snow,
Like I said on August22, 2005, "Pay attention to your surroundings, know where you are and what you are doing, and be in-the-know. Most importantly don't let your guard down."
What is at fault here is a lack of common sense and being "naive". Not being in-the-know of what the "real world" is all about and pretending that the world is a safe place to live, while going through life carefree, is what set this tragedy into motion.
Some people unfortunately don't think about what goes on around them, because they are oblivious to the goings on in the world, which is exactly like turning a deaf ear and a blind eye to reality, and allows them to set themselves up to be a victim.
Sometimes people just do not think when they are away from home, when this is the time they actually should. Not knowing ones surroundings should heighten ones sense of awareness and common sense of the dangers in the world.
I do not know why just because a child turns eighteen they are all of a sudden considered an adult.
I may be wrong for feeling this way, but I consider an adult to be experienced or mature in the decisions they make and most importantly being able to handle the responsibility of taking care of their own needs without having to live or rely on their parents for support (meaning a place to eat, sleep, and live), all while having the common sense to come in out of the rain (so-to-speak).
There is something to be learned out of this tragedy and I hope we will all heed tis lesson.
107 - snow
I am not saying that because you turn 18 that you are automatically totally responsible adult. That takes years of experience but you would think that one would have comon sense and know right from wrong.
Maybe we are all wrong in regards to what really happened that night. We are finding out information from Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers. That Van der Sloot left her on the beach or that she got in to the car because it was her choice. What if she was druged or forced to go with them. We may have it all wrong as to what really happened that night. Maybe she was so out of it that she did not know what was going on around her. Maybe if she was on the beach, she tried to get away from them and that is why that might have killed her. I pass no judgement on her actions because all the information that we get is from those three men and speculation.
108 - snow
Kathy are you still waiting for an apology?
109 - Althor
Hello Kathy Trusty!
I would have been more than happy to apologize to you if in my comments I have offended you in any way, since my purpose in posting on these blogs is to intelligently discuss issues, and ideas in a constructive manner, and not to single out or offend anyone, but since you so aptly described me as a “typical male ass-hole -holic” I believe an apology is no longer necessary.
I also would like to take the opportunity to thank you for pointing this out to me, and let you know that I have enrolled, and are presently attending meetings at “Ass-hole-holics Annonymous” (you’d be surprised how many females attend those meetings too!).
As to your comments pertaining to my “generalizing certain women into a category,” I have always maintained that when used properly, “profiling” is a powerful tool ( its absurd to be searching a Swedish looking 86 year old grandmother at the train station, while letting through the middle eastern young man with the heavy coat in the middle of summer, with the furtive look, wearing traditional Muslim garb that is actually carrying the bomb, because it is “Politically Incorrect” to “profile”him!), so if the shoe fits...wear it.
You have made your points, as well as we all have here, but if you choose to distract yourself with the “Natalee Holloway Media Circus-Soap Opera Melodrama-Reality Show” because you find it interesting ( the same way someone “likes” an Agatha Christy novel that is) and prefer it to watching reports about a “war” you don’t like going bad (because of the increasing lack of support of people like you, who just want to turn it into another “Viet-Nam,” something the enemy has been counting on all along) that were we to loose would have dire consequences, and repercussions the world round, that would be perfectly fine if said coverage was been shown on “Unsolved Mysteries,” “The Aruba Files,” or “Aruba’s most Wanted,” but
it DOES NOT BELONG anymore in our news channels at the expense of other more crucial, and critical developments!
As to your assertions that “television programming lacks any integrity, which tells you this is what networks see in our society: lack of intellect” (on the part of the viewing public), I couldn’t agree with you more, and would add that this is at the crux of the problem, and why such an enormous amount of unwarranted coverage has been given the Natalee case.
The networks could care less about Natalee, or the War in Iraq as institutions, but they do care “exceedingly” about profits (“ratings”), and if the banality, and average lack of intelligence of the general public places a “premium” on the Natalee Circus, at the expense of the other, hey...so be it!
That after the incessant barrage of negative reporting, the rumors, and the innuendos the media, ravenous for new “tidbits” of information about the case to throw the viewers to keep their audiences salivating like Pavlov’s dogs at the sound of a bell, and Beth’s ever-increasingly melodramatic and paranoiac performances and antics throughout this whole ordeal, Joran would get a fair trial is almost inconceivable at this point!
The evidence against him is mainly one of “association,” since he had the misfortune of being one of the last three to be seen with Natalee . And as to discrepancies in his “Depositions,” after being interrogated 14 hours a day for two months, I can’t imagine how he could remain sane, much less wonder about some discrepancies in his statements!
Fueled by Beth and the media’s “deceitful” reporting, their “captive” audiences have been worked-up to a frenzy of “bloodlust” for this young man. Wether he’s guilty or not, he has already been convicted in the court of public opinion, and I
accurately portrayed how many women in that audience feel: “God be damned if I don't see Joran flayed, castrated, and burned alive at the stake whether he's guilty or not, the filthy "male!" It's my opinion!!!” (They subconsciously may be trying to redress wrongs they feel have been committed against them as women by abusive males I suppose, hence their identifying with Beth and Natalee so much).
I have repeatedly stated that this is a tragedy which could have been easily prevented by a bit of parental discretion on Beth’s part, and by some common sense on the part of both, she, and her daughter, but as I have voiced this numerous times before, I won’t expound; no sense in beating a dead horse! As Roger Whittaker used to sing: “...there’s none so blind as those who will not see...”
And as to those teenagers calling themselves “Pimps” and preying upon helpless girls, who they drug, and induce into a life of depravity in Aruba, I do agree that if it is true, it is a heinous crime that Aruban authorities must get to the bottom of, put an end to, and prosecute the guilty! But pray, isn’t the same sort of thing happening on many corners of every one of our own American towns, and cities, as we speak, or who do you think those kids “modeled” themselves after (just take a look at your average “Rap” video on TV, or drive down to the “inner city” and you’ll see!!!)??? And be mindful, that not all the girls are “victimized” but have chosen to let themselves be victimized to satisfy their addictions!
Perhaps we should have Aruban authorities come over and investigate. That way they can keep not only Joran, but those other on every street corner here in America, from preying on our young college students (who by the way go out of their way to “emulate” them)!
Althor
P.S. Your response to Snow was excellent! Such insight seems paradoxical in the face of some other of your assertions, almost as if coming from two different individuals! Women! we'll never make them out no matter how much we try!!!
A.
110 - Nina Marie
1. I realize there are abbreviations commonly in use on the internet.
2. Still, most of you can't spell worth a crap or use correct grammar or punctuation.
3. The reason the Natalee Holloway story has gotten so much publicity is because there are strong reasons to believe governmental (judicial) corruption limited to investigation in the crucial first hours and days after Natalee went missing.
4. In America, if anyone goes missing, of any nationality, a professional investigation will take place.
5. Those of us with legal backgrounds are understandably both fascinated and frustrated by this case.
6. There are still many places on the television to get in-depth coverage of the war in Irag, the war on terrorism, hurricanes, immigration reform, sending our jobs overseas, etc. If you can't find them, you aren't looking very hard. (And I only get one cable channel which is CNN.)
7. I am now 47 years old, but in college I used to go to the cllubs in Los Angeles (I live in Arizona). A couple of times either my roommate or I would go to someone's house after the bar closed to have a nightcap. We never speent the night and we always got home safely. Looking back on it, I shouldn't have done it. But MANY of us have, and NONE of us would deserve to be gang-raped and murdered for it!
111 - Althor
Hello Nina!
Natalee did not deserve to be gang-raped, or murdered period!
But that should not gloss over the fact that it was her lack of judgement which made her more vulnerable, and a likely target, and helped set these events in motion. Also, you are “misrepresenting” facts in your statements!
In the first place, when Natalee was first reported missing in Aruba, she was thought possibly to have ran away, was thought to be somewhere in the island partying (as has often been the case with other missing teenagers visiting in the past), and was even believed to have been “kidnaped” at first by none other than Beth herself if you recall, rather than the “alleged” victim of “gang rape” and “murder;” something which is only a probable conjecture, but that there is no solid evidence to support.
Therefore the Aruban authorities, which needless to say are not as well versed in dealing with “murders,” “gang rapes,” “assaults,” and “violence” as we routinely are here in the States,
were not as”hawkish” in pursuing those avenues at first. This does not imply of itself any “conspiracy” or “cover-up”, and I would like to remind you that the Chief of Police who is friends to Paulus Van Der Sloot, recluse himself from the case as soon as Joran was brought in for questioning, to insure the impartiality of the proceedings.
The on-going Aruban investigation is “professional,” in spite of your salacious comments, and should have been allowed to come to a conclusion, before being pre-empted from the start by the “sensationalist update” ravenous media, and the negative barrage of paranoid comments incessantly made by Beth and her camp!
Secondly, another “misrepresentation” you made is to assert that there were other places to get “in-depth” coverage of other news, and developments while this “media circus” fiasco has been going on!
The only two pundits not to have engaged in “undue” coverage of Natalee, and Aruba, were Britt Hume of Fox, and Lou Dobbs of CNN for which I highly commend them! As for the rest, theirs has been a veritable flood of “Natalee” coverage night after night, hashing and rehashing the same old stale facts, rumors, and innuendos for three months now!
On Fox, the O’Reilly Factor touches on Natalee and Aruba at least once nightly, some times twice. Hannity & Colmes devotes at least three segments of their show to interviewing Beth and her cronies every night, with none of them having anything new to say! Greta “On the Record,” has devoted entire whole shows to this farce, and regularly devotes several segments to the story every night, even through coverage of the London bombings, or of the current hurricane coverage. Geraldo, again has dedicated whole shows to this fracas, and on CNN Larry King has devoted so many shows to it, and made of it such a stink, that Bob Costas, who occasionally sits-in for him, refused to host two weeks ago, because producers would not change the “contents” of the programming: one hour of uninterrupted “Beth Fest!” And you presume to tell me that coverage of this Natalee “non-news” item has not been over the top, excessive, intrusive, improper, unjustified, irresponsible, and nauseating??? Get real!!!
I still agree with you though, that most of us Americans can’t spell worth a damn, and that it is difficult for us to follow a sentence that runs longer than your average line at the Mc Donald’s menu, but some of us actually use punctuation to contour, and mold, words and sentences into meaningful expressions full of emotion, and foreboding, rather than the grammatically correct austere wordings of some contract (with which I believe you may be all too familiar), so that I would say to you, why don’t you go and pick up a copy of “Ulysses” and start correcting James Joyce!!!
Althor
112 - KATHY TRUSTY
To ALTHOR,
Again you did not read what I originally wrote "I never attacked you personally (which I could have said you act like a typical male who suffers from acute ass-hole-ism), which I did not do."
This would have been a personal attack (IF I chose to go that route, which I did not). I did not feel it necessary to attack you, because this is not the kind of person I felt you were. You are more intelligent than that. The only thing that bothered me was that you allowed your intelligence to drop by making personal attacks.
So I will except your original apology.
I agree with your comment "The networks could care less about Natalee, or the War in Iraq as institutions, but they do care “exceedingly” about profits (“ratings”)" It is a ratings game.
I do not totally agree with your comment "I accurately portrayed how many women in that audience feel: “God be damned if I don't see Joran flayed, castrated, and burned alive at the stake whether he's guilty or not, the filthy "male!" It's my opinion!!!” (They subconsciously may be trying to redress wrongs they feel have been committed against them as women by abusive males I suppose, hence their identifying with Beth and Natalee so much). This is not necessarily true for all women. Please do not include me in that accurate portrail or "profiling".
I am not adverse to the war situation for my father fought in Vietnam, a war I felr went on for too long. The war in Iraq needs all the support it can get, yet I pray this war will be over soon and will serve it's cause before anymore young american's die.
I agree with you that there are a great deal of teenagers who get into "rap" videos and want to “emulate” them, that maybe the case with Joran. Who can really say?
It's a shame to know that our young want to "emulate" such low-life thugs and think it is glorious to do so.
Your rebuttal (if I may) to Nina, was OUTSTANDING!
113 - Nina
To Althor:
You have your verbose style and I have my straight-to-the point style. Whatever floats your boat. I still vehemently disagree with you on a few things. The initial coverage of the missing Natalee Holloway focused on the two black men. When it came to light that this was taking all suspicion away from Joran, the Kaloes and Paulus it began to make a lot of us suspicious that they were able to so quickly and easily deflect the suspicion off of them and on to two guards who were complete innocent of wrongdoing. When we learned of the judge-in-training position of Paulus V.D.S., this only added to suspicion. The fact that the policechief or whoever recused himself, means nothing. Corruption can happen behind the scenes (where is usually does.) Why wasn't Paulus' house THOROUGHLY searched? Only Joran's apartment (which is on the V.D.S. property) was searched.
I also disagree with you, and this is deeply philosophical, on your contention about putting one's self at risk for a possible crime makes one at fault if such a crime should occur. This is at its root a question on good vs. evil. NOTHING excuses EVIL behavior! NOTHING!
And by the way, if Joran did leave Natalee on the beach in a very intoxicated state (even if she hadn't also been drugged - which she may have been), what kind of young man does that make him? Most young men that I have known would have made sure such a girl got home safely because that is the right thing to do.
I realize this is my personal belief, but I thing JORAN is a selfish, evil, reprobate. Just look at his slimy father - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. By the way, Joran was scheduled to start college in the U.S. Do we want someone like him in one of our colleges. I know I don't
Oh, one last thing, before I ever had satellite T.V. I got most of my news from PBS' The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer. I still watch it for the high level of discussion of the issues.
114 - snow
HI THERE ALTHOR,
HAVEN'T SPOKE TO YOU IN A WHILE AND WAS JUST WONDERING HOW YOU ARE MAKING OUT AMONG ALL THESE WOMEN. I REALLY DO MISS ARGUING WITH YOU BUT REALLY WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT. EVERYONE BASICALLY BELIEVES THAT THE POINTS THAT THEY MAKE OR THOUGHTS THAT THEY HAVE ARE CORRECT. WHO CAN ARGUE WITH THAT. I WILL ADMIT THAT I DO LIKE READING UP ON ALL THE POSTS THOU AND KEEPING UP TO SPEED ON THE NATALEE CASE AND I AM BEING VERY ENTERTAINED AS WELL
WELL ALTHOR U DON'T SEEM TOO BE AS BIG OF A JERK AS I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT! HAVE A GREAT DAY! :)
115 - momma
I have been reading all thesse blogs and here are my thoughts:
rumor has it that someone was out of control in aruba and arguing with their friends....
It is possible that the suspect left someone on the beach....tried to bring someone home...and someone was nasty and b...chy and suspect finally gave up and just left someone...suspect had to go to school you know...and, if suspect did do any wrong to or with someone...would suspect be bragging about being with someone the next day....?
All of the facts in the case have come from runor and innuendo mostly supplied by people who weren't even on the island
what is a fact is that there are millions of dollars being made by this media frenzy....
There is still not a single fact that proves there was a murder...
116 - KATHY TRUSTY
To NINA you stated "2. Still, most of you can't spell worth a crap or use correct grammar or punctuation."
My compliments on your spelling and grammar, how does it feel to be like the rest of us.
To SNOW, aaahhhh that was so sweet, what you said to Althor. He is not so bad after all.
117 - KATHY TRUSTY
To MOMMA you stated "what is a fact is that there are millions of dollars being made by this media frenzy...."
I agree, there is a lot of money being made while feeding the media machine, but my question is...Does the media ever give money to help causes, let's say like funding for finding missing and expolited children, helping the homeless (that can not watch their news broadcast), or hurricane victims, who have just lost everything they lived their lives for?
The answer (in my opinion) probably a small portion goes to needy causes and a medium portion goes to political campaigns, while a greater portion goes to profits (that is after everyone gets paid).
The fact is you will never hear the news reporting about the news does with their money.
118 - Althor
Ah me! Turns out I'm a "little" jerk instead of a "big jerk"...and size does matter!!!
Althor
119 - snow
ALTHOR, I AM SORRY YOU AREN'T A JERK SWEETIE! I ACTUALLY HAVE GOTTEN TO KNOW YOU ABIT THROUGH YOUR POSTS AND I SEEM TO BE QUITE FOND OF YOU! I ACTUALLY LOOK FOR YOUR POSTS TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY FOR THE DAY! BE NICE SWEETIE :)
120 - Althor
You know what they say: "Momma is always right," and so she is again!!!
The only thing is that Momma chose to focus on all the millions "being made" by the media, and others (not only by the media folks, check out Amazon.com, and e-bay: Natalee Bracelets, "T" shirts, posters, pictures autographed by Beth showing her and her daughter together, and other "official" Natalee paraphernalia from Beth and the Twitty camp $$$$. Of course, all of the proceeds are for the search and rescue efforts, and to pay the lawyers etc. Right!!!), while I would choose to focus on all the millions being "wasted" by impoverished Aruba on this wild goose chase, and they get criticized, ridiculed, and their tourism industry destroyed in the process to boot! All of it impelled by the Twittys and their "media circus" (imagine if only a fraction of the resources been wasted on Natalee would be used to locate other missing persons, what wondrous results we may have! How ironic!)!!!
Althor
121 - TIRED
On all of the blogs dedicated to this you are not permitted to say anything that they don't want said. People are banned and chastised, in the united states mind you, for having an opinion or theory that they don't want heard....do you think that this is good? I don't...
there is one poster named dayo on another site that has really valid theories and objections....where is he now...banned...you should read his posts they make a lot of sense.....
someone by the name of tante bet is being banned all over the internet because she is pointing our one very glaring fact...there is no proof of any murder at all....
some very sick person on another blog is demanding that the united states take over the country of aruba to do their own investigation to make sure that their suspect is definitely the one to take the fall....
there is someone else intimating that the family of the suspect is paying off the judges and then on the same blog someone else is saying that the family of the missing person is also paying the same judges...these judges are going to be rich.....each paying for their own outcome...when are the arubans and dutch going to get angry? Is their system of justice so easily corrupted...
what saddens me is that this is the only place i could post this without drinking the cool aid and thinking about what really is going on...
I agree with momma and some of the others...this is sure a money making machine...what if it turns out to be the greatest scam ever...won't the media be embarrassed...won't the bloggers be upset.....
If there is no hard core evidence to hold those boys...no evidence except that which has been manipulated beautifully by the three public relations persons hired by the family of the missing person...then they should go free...
in the beginning, until all this unsavory stuff came out, i felt terrible about this whole situation but....everyone is talking about people in power...how does one person hold an entire class of teenagers in a small town hostage, take all their photos of their nice vacation and then forbid them to talk about it....? that my friends is the question...
In the court of public opinion....people are starting to think and they are not thinking so well about the "ugly american" and the accusations destroying the people and the island of aruba.
122 - Althor
Hello Nina!
“Verbose”??? You must be watching too much Bill O’Reilly on Fox! But anyway, I’ll try to keep it “pithy.”
Ok, as to the two “black men” originally brought in by authorities to be questioned at the beginning of the investigation in Aruba, I would like to remind you that the ones that made a huge “stink” about them, calling them “thugs,” and “drug dealers,” and demeaning their families categorizing them as being “low-life” involved with “drugs” and “crime” on the island, was the “media, ” our friend O’Reilly being one of the most “vociferous” amongst them, for which, by the way, he has never publicly apologized on the air to them, or to anyone!
That there is a greater possibility of collusion in a small tightly knitted community, than in a sprawling metropolis is true, however, up to this point (as has been also true of many other aspects of this case) there is no corroborating evidence to support claims of such, other than your “assumptions.”
Which also brings a good point to bear, seems that it is not only “beauty” which is in the eye of the beholder, but that also “truth” seems to be highly “subjective” to many people. I can provide you with facts to rebut your arguments, but I can not make you accept them ( you may drive a mule to water, but...).
As to your deep “philosophical” disagreement with my contentions about not putting oneself in harm’s way by avoiding situations that would make us more vulnerable to be “victims” of crime, since you said that at its root is the question of “good vs. evil,” and nothing excuses “evil” behavior, I’ll let you discuss those nice philosophical subtleties at length with the three nice young men covered in tattoos, wearing bandanas to cover their faces from “Mara Salvatrucha” waving knives and guns down the alley that you took at 2:AM with $10,000 worth of “sparkling” jewelry on you, in your skimpy, provocative outfit, while I, being more “ignorant,” but pragmatic, promptly head in the equal but opposite direction, ok?
Now, since you’ve touched upon philosophy, I think it is worth mentioning, that in an amazing show of foresight that seems to have bridged the intervening centuries “prophetically,” and that rivals in its incisiveness, and insight the prophecies of Nostradamus, Socrates said to his followers, as if he could have seen all the inordinate media coverage of the Natalee Holloway fiasco in his mind’s eye: “Too much of anything, is too much for me!” Well said old man!
Furthermore, you show how “prejudiced” you beliefs are by calling Joran a “selfish,” “evil,” “reprobate,” and his father “slimy” ( how can you call Joran “selfish” when he shared Natalee with his friends, and Paulus may have been sweaty, but that doesn’t make him necessarily “slimy”) based only on the perceptions you have from “biased” media coverage! Do you personally know them perhaps?
Though Joran may be guilty of Natalee’s disappearance, and may very well be a “spoiled brat,” a “cad,” and a “reprobate,” (as you say) I find it very unlikely that at his age ( he’s actually younger than Natalee) he would be a “hardened,” “cold-blooded,” “premeditated,” “murderer,” a la “BTK,” and most likely what happened to Natalee, if it involved him, was an accident in spite of whatever cover-ups may have followed.
And Paulus Van Der Sloot, though highly culpable for not having restrained his son from indulging in such “wild partying” as has been the cause of his woes, is only a father desperate to protect, and save his son, just like any other father would!
Anyway, seems after all we do share something in common, since I also have watched the “News Hour with Jim Lehrer” for years, find it one of the most credible, and reliable sources for news, and consider it the newscast with probably the highest journalistic integrity of them all.
Althor
123 - kap
Even though one can never condone the kidnapping and killing of another human being, shouldn't some of the blame be placed on Natalie if she voluntarily got into a car with three young men she hardly knew and went of with them, even though I hope she will turn up alive and ok, people have to take resposibility for their own safety
and beware of their associations
kap
124 - kap
Even though one can never condone the kidnapping and killing of another human being, shouldn't some of the blame be placed on Natalie if she voluntarily got into a car with three young men she hardly knew and went of with them, even though I hope she will turn up alive and ok, people have to take resposibility for their own safety
and beware of their associations
kap
125 - sheri
Althor, Although I find your mind original, quick and logical...........perhaps too bright for the constant blogs, surely you are missing the obvious. First of all, I think most experts have agreed that its a type of genius that Natalie's parents have used to keep her name in the media.That keeps the energy and focus on a case.....keeps the authorities on their " proverbial toes". Secondly, if you cannot intuitively see the character and strength this family posesses in dealing with th is enormous tragedy? I doubt I could have that type of grace under such a tragedy. Thirdly, the victim is Natalie. And , any shred of common sense will tell you that Van Der Sloot and his " homies" would not have changed their stories so many times without having something to hide. Many experts have conceded to this conclusion. But , lastly, perhaps what you are really overlooking is that this is real news........a human drama and it obviously brought ratings,,,,,,,,or it would not have continued. So, your whining has taken epidimic proportions just because Fox responded to most of the viewers and not just you.....so like a man, who has had his routine upset? Maybe you need to apply that brilliant mind and verbage to some real challenges( if you don't already}