...does it make me a bad person because I enjoy a story that involves an insane, murderous clown?
From the flapping jaws and clacking keyboards of a group of pointy-headed cultural commentators comes the not quite random musings on the topics of the day. (Or at least the topics brought up at the pointy-headed cultural commentators meetings).…
Article comments
76 - Chris Evans
What do you guys think of Joyce Carol Oates?
77 - Shark
Nalle,
1) It's spelled "Patrick O'BRIAN"
2) O'Brian [Master of the World...zzzzzzzzz...] is not worthy of anointing Sabatini's feet. Sabatini wrote some of the greatest novels in history, regardless of 'genre'. In addition, they were often deep philosophical, politicial, and socialogical commentaries -- disguised and/or mistaken as merely "swashbucking adventures" --
so... DO NOT BLASPHEME THE GREAT SABATINI.
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Dear Ski & other Dickens haters:
try "GREAT EXPECTATIONS" -- it's almost impossible NOT to like it, methinks.
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Dear Duke De Mondo,
After reading yer praise of Naked Lunch, I was gonna recommend MALDOROR [by Lautreamont] -- but then again, I decided not to; recommending this book to anyone is sorta like handing a loaded pistol to a hyperactive chimpanzee.
...so nevermind...
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re. Joyce Carol Oates --
hmmmm... let's see, should I read some Oates... or spend more time with my insane, psychotic, frustrated, sick, dysfunctional middle-class suburban family?
Life's full of tough choices.
78 - SFC SKI
I don't hate Dickens, I did enjoy Great Expectations, and Nicoals Nickleby.
79 - Mat Brewster
Only Joyce Carol Oates I've read is Foxfire. It was ok. The movie was better but that's just because it had plenty of Angelie Jolie boobies.
I'd say I have read some novels that are really good, but also rather dull. Joyce's Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man comes to mind. I found it very difficult to read and quite boring, but I also understand, to an extent, why it gets praised so much. The plot is dull and there is way to much religous dogma, but his voice is original and sometimes profound.
I actually think Stephen King will be studied at university in years to come. Not in the manner that Joyce or Faulkner is, but as a writer of 20th century popular fiction. And I flippin hate John Grisham and Dean Koontz. I had to stop reading Koontz in high school because he kept retelling the same story over and over. And there is only so many court room dramas that I can handle in a lifetime for Grisham.
80 - Mark Saleski
king's writing is 'awkward'? gee, why am i not surprised to disagree with mr. nalle?
81 - Bennett
"Stephen King is popular but he is also crap, because his writing is awkward and unreadable and if extended to novel length it becomes tedious and overblown as well."
Damn strange universe you live in, Dave. With such a grip on these things, you'd think there would be a Dave Nalle best seller out there.
No?
Oh, you were just trying to be controversial?
82 - Dave Nalle
I keep all my bestsellers in a drawer in my office, Bennett. The world is safer with them there in manuscript form.
And it's not a crime to dislike Stephen King. He writes at the level of a smart 6th grader. I guess that makes him approachable for some people, but for me it just makes him painful to read.
And Shark. Sorry for misspelling O'Brian's name - and I didn't say he was BETTER than Sabatini, just the best we've had since then - or do you have a better entry in the historical novel field? Perhaps Newt Gingrich?
Dave
83 - Bennett
Heh! C'mon Dave, self-publish! You can advertise right here on BC!
Some of King's work is as you describe, but there are also gems like the novella "Hearts In Atlantis", and shorts like "Doolin's Cadilac" that stand alone as testament to his talent.
Granted, the short novels of Steinbeck are on a different level all together. "The Moon Is Down", "Cannery Row", and "Of Mice and Men" are three that stand out in my opinion.
On the other end of the spectrum, I can't stand Koontz. He starts out with an interesting idea, the same one over and over it seems, but then comes up with some cheap excuse for an ending that is guaranteed to disappoint.
84 - sadi ranson-polizzotti
Shark, agree with everything you have said so far (quelle surprise).
Yes, todays popular fiction is tomorrow's literary fiction, so you can't really make any determination yet anyway. As someone who has worked in publishing my entire career at literary presses (ie., The Atlantic Monthly etc etc), we considered certain work more "literary" thana others and that generally had to do with the subject matter. if it were more serious in nature, if it had been handled more professionally and if the author had a true gift for writing, then it would be, by those rules there, more "literary."
"Pulp" fiction is written quickly, is often, more often than not, formulaic (a real sign of pulp or popular), and is almost always what we could consider "ilght reading." That's not to say that literature should be hard to read, but the fact is that afor the most part, it is. But there ARE cross over writers whose work is easy to read and who are literary at the same time;
a few:
Harry Mathews (one T please)
Ian McEwan
Philip Roth
Saul Bellow
Henry Miller
Jim Harrison
and right now i can't think of any women, but thee are many such as poet Sharon Olds who is amazing and gifted... i could probably make really long list if i had more time.
Has this helped a bit? or are you all going to boo me now?
Well in any case, i've tried to contribute as someone who does this every single day.... i have to make editorial decisions about what to publish every day and so does my husband. AS both editors, it's hard. i ran my own literary/book press for years and sorting the "slush" from the good stuff is very hard. It's a fine line and i don't think you'll ever resolve it here or anywhre else, but i like that you are trying. I think it's a great topic.
Cheers all, and thanks for the lively discussion...
rock on.
s.
85 - Eric Berlin
Relating Stephen King's writing to that of a "smart sixth grader" is to state a truly worldclass falsehood.
Take aside the fact that the man has written millions of words that are bought and enjoyed around the planet, by the average and by the literary elite. The writing itself is wonderful -- not always, occasionally sloppy like all prolific writers -- but often it's great and sometimes even transcendent.
He makes it easy because he's a natural storyteller. His work spins the reader in who is open to exploring new worlds. It's as simple as that. King's characters are often what keep me coming back, actually, as he's a fine observer of human nature.
History will be very kind to Mr. King as an author. I've said before that he's the Dickens of his generation. They really do have a lot in common.
86 - Dave Nalle
Heh! C'mon Dave, self-publish! You can advertise right here on BC!
Now there's a good way to flush a great deal of money. I did take one of my novels and excerpt some sections as short stories which I sold to a variety of magazines, but that's as far as I want to go with it for now. Someday the fiction bug may bite me again, but frankly it's a hell of a lot of work which I just don't have the time or patience for.
Some of King's work is as you describe, but there are also gems like the novella "Hearts In Atlantis", and shorts like "Doolin's Cadilac" that stand alone as testament to his talent.
I'll agree with you here. King's short fiction is much better than his novels are. They don't suffer from the same sloppiness and lack of coherence and sheer rambling pointlessness.
On the other end of the spectrum, I can't stand Koontz. He starts out with an interesting idea, the same one over and over it seems, but then comes up with some cheap excuse for an ending that is guaranteed to disappoint.
He has his good and bad moments. The less he tries to do with his novels and the less seriously he takes what he's doing the better the result tends to be.
Oh and I forgot to mention Neil Gaiman earlier - his work will endure.
Dave
87 - Eric Berlin
I believe the short story is entitled "Dolan's Cadillac." In any event, it's absolutely brilliant, a taut thriller of a short tale about vengeance on a desert highway. If loving that kind of well penned, expertly executed tale makes me pedestrian or an admirer of "sub-par fiction," I could care less. Of course, I disagree with any such assessment!
88 - Bennett
Thanks for the title correction Eric, and yeah, I agree. It's a great story.
But at the same time, "The Stand" is a great read, "It" is an amazing saga, and books 2 and 3 of the Gunslinger series are truly inspired. King has given me hours and hours of entertainment, how can I not praise someone who has done that?
89 - Eric Berlin
Of course! The Stand, the first (revised) edition of The Dark Tower (The Gunslinger), and The Shining are, in my view, absolutely classic pieces of American literature that can stand up with just about any other work of storytelling.
90 - Chris Evans
Okay, I started to read King's "IT" a few years ago, and I was really excited to see it because I had seen and loved the movie. But let me just say, I got to page 50, and wanted to kill myself. To get through his books, you have to have the patience of a fucking Kindergarten teacher at an inner city elementary school. I'd been reading for an hour...and I was only on page 20...and still NOTHING had happened. He's entirely too descriptive, and spends too much time rambling about things that the reader thinks they need to pay attention to and absorb that they later find out was pointlessand arbitrary.
However, I read "Secret Window, Secret Garden", and it was almost like I was reading a completely different author. It was great, he was concise, he was clear, and everything made sense. I just think his shorter works are more readable.
I also think, as being discussed before (Plot and ideas vs. writing style), Stephen King is much better at his ideas and plotlines and characters than he is at the actual writing himself. I've seen many of the movies based on his books, and they are all really great. But when I try to read the novels, I can barely get through them without giving up because I feel like I'm not getting anywhere.
91 - Eric Berlin
First, it's important to note that King "means" a lot of things since he's so prolific, has such a long career, and is not simply a "horror" novelist.
That said, It was the first really long novel I can remember reading, in the mid '80s or so. I loved it, transported me another world, etc. Since it is such an epic, you really do have to give it time to work on you.
Overall, I find his writing to be outstanding, though I can agree that he does go heavy on description from time-to-time. Last, I have to disagree on his films -- overall I'd say that the average King book is good to great while the average King film is good to awful.
92 - Bennett
It is an amazing study of the difference between children and adults, and how much we change over the years. It's a book worth wading through the few slow parts to get a grip on the bigger picture.
I'm with you Eric, about the movies. The Stand mini-series is an exception, and is really well done.
Obviously, Shawshank Redemption is far and away the best movie ever made from a King story.
I'd love to see more of his short stories hit the screen, as long as Mr. King has nothing to do with the production...
93 - Eric Berlin
Agree on Shawshank and agree King does not have the magic touch when it comes to film. The adaptation of The Langoliers was very good, so maybe mini-series are the way to go in adapting King's work...
Oh man, I just thought of this -- imagine if Peter Jackson would take on The Dark Tower? That would be seet.
94 - Chris Evans
That WOULD be great.
95 - Mark Saleski
so dave, which king books have you read?
96 - Dave Nalle
I've read the original version of The Stand, Salem's Lot and The Shining all the way through, part of Eye of the Dragon and part of It. The only one I thoroughly enjoyed was a collection of his short stories with a wind-up monkey on the cover which I can't recall the title of. Eye of the Dragon was particularly, cringingly awful.
Dave
97 - Eric Berlin
That's a lot of reading (a few thousand pages worth) of a "smart sixth grader's" work, no?
By the way, rating writers by reading level is a strange comparison as most newspapers claim to publish at some age-level (9th grade, 6th grade, one of those).
98 - Dave Nalle
My wife was reading Stephen King a lot and I had nothing else to read, Eric. My ongoing problem is that I'm selective in my reading and it takes a while to find new authors I like. So I tried out some King in my desperate boredom. You should see some of the OTHER crap I've read.
Dave
99 - Mary K. Williams
King was also an addict during many of his wriitng years, might account for the uneven story telling.
100 - Mat Brewster
Wow, Dave you've read more King than me, and I like the guy. King is someone I'll read if one of his books is laying around, but not someone I really go out of my way to seek out.
He's a good storyteller, and I think he will leave a lasting mark on literature, but there are so many other authors to read.
101 - Bennett
Dave - It should be noted that The Eye Of The Dragon IS a book intended for sixth graders!
You should get any or all of his short story collections, they do not disappoint!
Hearts In Atlantis
Graveyard Shift
Everything's Eventual
Night Shift
and
Four Past Midnight
Are the ones I can remember offhand...
I actually envy you folks, so many gripping and well written tales lie ahead.
102 - Eric Berlin
Bennett, several of the collections you mention hold novellas, not short stories... but they're all great!
I absolutely love Eyes of the Dragon -- it's a wonderful fantasy with a real beating heart.
I get the feeling that I've read the most King round these parts!
103 - Bennett
Nah Eric, I've read everything he's put out, even the ones as Richard Bachman (The Long Walk!) and have almost everything, in paperback or hard cover sitting on the shelf.
Seriously.
104 - DJRadiohead
Since this has turned into a tretise on Stephen King I guess I should confess: I have only read one work by King. "The Green Mile." Loved it. Don't know why I haven't been back for more. I guess it's the whole "horror" thing. Not my bag. Anyway, that's all I have to say on King. Carry on.
105 - Mark Saleski
wow, bennet's read everything kind has written!
didn't you realize it was written for sixth graders?
hoooboy, are we stooopid or what?!
;-)
106 - Bennett
I reckon so. Attributed to the lack of a silver spoon up my ass, no doubt.
107 - Shark
Too bad this entry isn't under "BOOKS" heading, eh?
BTW: Seems BC needs a thread where we can just casually discuss ANY books, authors, recommendations, etc?
Seems that when that sorta takes over a thread -- there's a lot of action.
We could give it a cute/clever title... and serve drinks, maybe?
108 - Bennett
Shark's "Carnaval De Livres"
Martini, up.
109 - Shark
Bennett, while I appreciate the romantic and literary aspects of "Carnaval De Livres" -- I'm afraid most of our semi-literate readers will assume it's a foreign film review.
How bout something simple and descriptive like "READERS BOOK TALK"
teguila, straight.
110 - Mat Brewster
How about:
"Abortionists, married homosexuals, death penalty advocates and B5 with Little Ricky talk about books"
That would bring in the commenters like crazy.
111 - Bennett
Quantity, but seriously lacking in quality.
"Reader's Book Talk" sounds good.
Beer and a shot.
112 - Eric Berlin
Shark -- There's an open comments area in every section (including books) where people can talk about anything they want, but for whatever reason they don't get utilized all that much.
113 - Greg Smyth
Nice to see this particular HT breaking out of the usual comment ghetto.
Good work lads...
114 - Shark
E Berlin, thanks for the directions. I would never have known that -- thanks to the new, fucked up, overly commercialized, chaotic, info-overkill, animated ad deluged Blogcritics format redesign.
: /
Guess I'll take my cigar, my tequila, and my obnoxious, elitist literary opinions over to the new digs.
uh, smoking is allowed, right?
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"Art is knowing when to stop." -- ©1994 by Shark
115 - Eric Berlin
Smoke 'em if you got 'em, far as I'm concerned!
And if you have any Sharkish decrees on how to make the site less fucked up, we're always open ears!
116 - DJRadiohead
Camel Lights and a Newcastle.
117 - Christopher Rose
Shark, we're doing the best we know mate, what would you suggest we do to keep BC going?
118 - Eric Berlin
I'd rather double-fist a Mondavi Pinot and a Jack and Diet Coke... is it quitting time yet?
119 - Mark Saleski
macallen.
oh, and yes...it's quittin' time.
well, almost.
120 - Eric Berlin
I think I hit mental quitting time a good little while back now.
121 - Mat Brewster
Then how about a couple of mental margaritas?