We are separated by thousands of miles, decades of age, and, in one important instance, that danged chromosome. We are the Men and Woman of Mondo, convened once again to mull over this topic: Is a well-rounded education a waste of money? Or should a person just learn what's necessary to take on a career? Is an education a means to an end, or a way to human betterment? Let's find out (or at least start somethin'!)
From: Mark Saleski
To: The Hot Topic Team
Re: A Well-Rounded Education
Can we just get this one over with by flinging the obvious answer? Of course a well-rounded education is worth it. It's simple!
But it's not.
When dealing with things like very technical disciplines (the various flavors of engineering, for example), very often few electives outside of the major are required. But really, what's the big deal here? Why take courses that have nothing to do with future employment? Why learn something if you're not going to use it?
This debate was rubbed right in my face when I was in college. After escaping from mechanical engineering (What was I thinking?!) to the kinder waters of computer science, I discovered that a whole world of non-technical electives was open to me. There was no hesitation on my part: psychology, philosophy, sociology, and logic — all tastier in some ways than the nearly full plate of computer and math courses I was looking at.
Well, my friends thought that I was nuts. What the hell did Existentialism have to do with complex data structures? How might Political Psychology help me to write software?
The answers are: Nothing, It can't, and What are you afraid of?!
OK. Maybe that last bit was a little too flippant. The thing is, I see learning as less of a training exercise (read: for making money only) and more of a way to "seed" the future. Sure, I took a bunch of math and computer courses. Yes, I did graduate and use that stuff to write manufacturing software. Does that mean I pissed away money on those electives?
No, and "future" is the key word.
First, you are not your job. I suppose you can be, but to limit your knowledge to the professional arena is to unnecessarily constrain yourself and your future. One small example: a short while ago, I struck up a conversation with a person on the topic of website hit-counters. It turns out that this person shared my interest in psychology. Because of that intersection of ideas, I'm now occasionally writing articles for the magazine that she (Hi Mary!) helps to edit. That is an opportunity I could not have imagined twenty-five years ago when signing up for a course in Social Psychology.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - DJRadiohead
I hate I didn't get in on this- chronic overload and laziness being the key components of it all.
I guess one of the things I was going to suggest is that a well-rounded education doesn't have to come in the form of a college degree. Round out your education while you're in college getting that first degree or round it out later after you've graduated or do it while you're there. The point is learning should never stop. It's a big world out there. Learn something about it. Don't be defined by your job. Be technicolor.
Or something like that.
Well done, MondoPeople.
2 - Mark Saleski
well-rounded education doesn't have to come in the form of a college degree
yea, that's very true. i sort of which i'd gone into that a little.
by yes, it's the life-long learning thing that's important too.
3 - DJRadiohead
What I had planned to write, had I made myself have the time, was that I wish it was easier to take classes a la carte after your degree was completed. When I was in college, I was pretty focused on getting my degree because by that time I was a bit of an older student (long story). Now that I am out, there are scads of things I would love to know more about and would like taking a class to help with that.
4 - Mary K. Williams
I think learning is going to happen no matter where you are - provided you are open to it.
Remember Its A Wonderful Life? Jimmy Stewart was always a bit resentful that he didn't get to travel, and then "Go to college, and see what they know". But as Clarence pointed out to him, he really was having a fine ole time in Bedford Falls after all. His experiences and interactions with others in his small town truly made him 'the richest man in town'.
Of course I think if anyone has the opportunity to get to college, their obligation is to work hard at the required subjects for their major - but at the same time, not have the blinders on so tight they can't absorb the countless experiences that will not occur in the classroom.
5 - Mark Saleski
i worked hard at the required subjects...i just sucked at it. y'know, despite bennett's objections, i do think that it's an "experience". in retrospect, one that i wish i'd been able to go through when i was just a little older.
6 - DJRadiohead
Most colleges offer advanced chemistry in a variety of "classroom settings."
I was a little older when I went and felt the pressure to finish. Even though I was only a couple years older than the "kids," I still felt very much like an outsider to the "experience." I think the "college experience" is just a kitchsy phrase used to jack up tuition each year.
I majored in cynicism. I think I got the fuckin' job.
7 - Mary K. Williams
I majored in cynicism. I think I got the fuckin' job
Absolutely! Summa Cum Fuckin'Laude is what you got!
I had to laugh about the college experience being a 'kitchsy phrase'.
Maybe there's some truth to that!
again, it depends on what kind of experience you want.
8 - Mark Saleski
dj's still bitter because he was ignored by the cheerleaders.
9 - Dave Nalle
Wish I'd been invited to participate too. I wasn't even aware this project was being launched - the price of there being too damned many things going on at BC for any person with human level powers to fully monitor.
What bothers me is that the focus on a well rounded educaton has been abandonned or greatly minimized by most colleges in favor of greater and greater specialization. When our first colleges were founded everyone took essentially the same curriculum for the entire time they were there. By the start of the 20th century this had shifted to two years of required courses followed by two years of specialized electives. Today at most schools the curriculum is largely determined by your major and there are very few courses required of everyone, and most of those you can place out of. Here in Texas I think the requirements are down to a total of less than 20 hours out of 100+ for a BA.
The ultimate impact of this is that people may be more educated in their area of specialization, but they're ignorant in so many other areas that they're less functional as human beings. I remember that educated people of my parents generation had certain basic cultural and intellectual knowledge which they could use as a basis for conversation. This is true of a smaller group of people in my generation and I suspect that in my childrens generation that common ground of cultural literacy will no longer exist at all.
Hyperspecialization in college wouldn't be as bad if the high schools were doing their job, but they've lost their way as well. They've devoted more and more time to technical education and seem to go into less depth in every area. When I was teaching college I was shocked by the basic knowledge which students in my intro level classes were lacking. For some of them my course was the first on in which they had been required to read an entire book-length work on a single subject or even the first course where they had been required to read a novel. That's just scary. The public schools have totally replaced reading longer works with anthologies of excerpts and short stories and most horrifically bits of 'literature' of questionable quality written to order as examples of particular techniques. Instead of reading.
And what happened to memorization? By the time I entered high school I had memorized dozens of poems - several in every English class I was in. My parents have even more by memory, including some in other languages. My eldest daughter is entering highschool and has yet to be required to memorize anything. Not a speech from Shakespeare or even a short poem by a major romantic poet.
Abandonning any kind of in-depth study of literature and history destroys the common cultural framework which holds us all together. Now if you don't read on your own or have additional education pushed on you by your parents or major in liberal arts - which everyone thinks is useless and makes you unemployable - you end up a cultural moron, reduced to a state of ignorance which was achieved among the proletariat of previous ages by illiteracy but which we've chosen to embrace for expediency.
Dave
10 - DJRadiohead
Not really, Saleski. The Wife to Whom I'm Married could kick any three chearleaders' ass. The only thing I missed from the experience was getting stoned and listening to DMB at a frat house. Damn, I hope we reincarnate. Listening to "Jimi Thing" while stoned is an experience I simply must have.
11 - Mary K. Williams
Sir DJ -
420 baby.
12 - Mark Saleski
i wouldn't know. i never went to a frat house.
13 - Mary K. Williams
Dave - you really didn't miss anything - the Hot Topic tends to fly under the BC radar.
But Some education is lacking for sure.
Fourth grade - we were memorizing "Trees" by Joyce Kilmer.
Today I'm just thankful that at least one kid has The Lord's Prayer memorized.
Tho - my High Schooler does a pretty good "Speak the Speech" from Hamlet.
14 - Dave Nalle
the Hot Topic tends to fly under the BC radar.
Maybe we need to do something about that...
Dave
15 - DJRadiohead
Saleski, was the Brady haircut the key to your success with those cheerleaders?
I never made it to a frat house, either. Huh. Somehow I don't feel all that deprived.
16 - Mark Saleski
i was in no way implying that i had any success with cheerleaders.
i'm just not bitter about it.
17 - DJRadiohead
I'm bitter... just not about
the town bicyclecheerleaders.18 - Mat Brewster
a well-rounded education doesn't have to come in the form of a college degree.
A very good point Mr DJ. One we're probably all wishing we had made. And I'll also agree with the wishing it was easier to just take a class. I live within 10 minutes of Indiana University but taking a singular class is such a pain in the butt I never actually do it.
Nice job on putting this together (finally) Sir Saleski!
19 - Bennett
a well-rounded education doesn't have to come in the form of a college degree
So true Mr. DJ. My mother was very anti-TV and pro-classical music and books. So for entertainment my brothers and I learned to read for pleasure at a very early age. In fact, before we could read she went through the entire Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings books (a chapter at a time) as our bedtime stories.
I was quite shocked and dismayed when I saw my first Dr. Suess (sp?) book... How fucking lame!
Thanks Mom!
20 - Mary K. Williams
awww Dr. Suess was cool.
21 - Elvira Black
I'm surprised to learn that some here find it difficult to find individual university courses. Don't most colleges have continuing ed programs (usually reasonably priced?) I took some continuing ed courses taught by professional writers who brought in guest editors, which landed me paid writing gigs and publication--something my master's in English never did for me, though I don't regret getting it for a moment.
22 - DJRadiohead
Elvira, a number of universities do offer "continuing ed" courses and some of them can be quite good. That said, they aren't the same as "real" university courses and there isn't the same variety of course options. It would have been cool to take the Shakespeare class my wife just took. Even though I already have my bachelors I still wouldn't have been able to take that class without a lot of hassle.
23 - Mat Brewster
Exactly. The city here offers a lot of continuing education courses and adult type courses all of which are pretty cool. But just jumping into a single course at the university on say the films of Fellini is a bit more problematic.
Its not so much that I blame the university for not just letting anybody jump into any course they want at any time, I just sometimes wish I could.
24 - Baronius
Yes, education is important beyond your career...
Yes, education doesn't end with graduation...
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, but a broad education also helps your career. An engineer who has read Shakespeare is a better engineer than one who hasn't. Shakespeare teaches an engineer a different way to think. Engineering teaches a playwright a different way to think.
The education argument is often between technical expertise and human development. We shouldn't forget that a wide-ranging education can be defended even from the most utilitarian, careerist perspective.
An elastic mind will always get the promotion over the rigid thinker. First, because the rigid thinker is a jerk. But second, because an engineer who can communicate is a rare thing. As is a Shakespearean actor who understands the physics of set design.
25 - Mary K. Williams
Baronius - this makes a lot of sense. I just wrote an article on something a little similiar.
Though we tend to be more prone to either left or right brain processing - we still have both hemispheres for a reason.