I know this is wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to count them, but yes, as a Post Post-Modern Baby Boomer American philosopher fed up with the lisping, sighing prattle of delicate liberals and equally nauseated by the strident delusions of hell-fire Buchananites and his perpetually pissed off puritanical brethren all waiting to gloat when the rapture comes, I am oddly glad we are being forced to awaken from our cushy American delusions.
Screw the rapture and screw the abortionists. This is tectonic. Fantasies about Wal-Mart, the glass ceiling, flat tax, and gay pride are not really much of a problem when you take a slightly broader view. Radical Islam has been pounding at the door for a while and we all really should have awakened from our dogmatic slumbers.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Disney Land and Harvard will now be closing. Please return to the starry heavens above and the moral law within. This is the time for authentic philosophers and theologians to put down their otiose academic games and take gainful employment saving Western rights-based democracies. Liberals and Conservatives need not apply; you can keep on dreaming of social workers and heaven.
Yes, the radical Islamists really do want to kill us, and the moderate Muslims, much like the Catholics, think our consumer culture is perverse which is why neither opposes too forcefully the violent Islamists, so long as they only blow up the icons, residents, and proselytizers of the Protestant consumer cultures of America and Europe.
All our fulsome hand wringing and progressive sensibilities will not help us a jot until we actually decide who we are, morally that is. Yes, the big armies of the centuries have finally come out again; it’s the Imams vs. the Popes. The Muslims and the Catholics, who together speak for nearly four billion people (more people than ten USA’s), are now getting ready to go head-to-head again. This time it is not at all about terrorists killing consumerists.
The Muslims, it seems, have also been killing Catholics as Catholics. These guys each know exactly who they are. They each really have moral clarity and have had moral clarity for around one-thousand five-hundred years. We spoiled puritanical Americans are merely their arrogant children; we are the small fry in the big one that is coming. After all, there is not much a few smart bombs or other fancy military toys can do to change the minds of the waves of billions and billions people who are intent on overthrowing Western Culture as their protesting children have recently conceived it.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Darren
I agree that we are at war.
Remember a house divided cannot stand. You need Christians from all walks of life to fight the scourage of Islam. This fight cannot be fought alone. Even the atheist needs Christians to fight this battle for Islam is hell bent on taking over the world to impose sharia law. I know athiests hate Christians; yet imagine if they were having to face Muslims alone.
Christians don't strap on bombs. We have not brought down a skyscraper. If Christians were removed from this world, this world would really be hell on earth far worse than what it is right now.
Imagine though if Muslims were removed from this world, it would almost be like paradise...well except for the Hindus killing Christians in India and surrounding areas.
2 - Darren
One more thing.
You stated: '...America is willing to define the moral core of liberal democracies".
What did define the moral core of liberal democracies, i.e. the West, was the Judeo-Christian faiths. But now the West has abandoned its moral foundations; hence leaving it empty and devoid of a moral compass.
Humanism, secularism, atheism, and any other "ism", will not save America, but in fact are responsible for its decline.
3 - Nancy
To paraphrase Karl Marx, this just goes to prove that religion is not the opiate, but the poison, of the credulous & ignorant masses.
4 - Apollo
"well except for the Hindus killing Christians in India and surrounding areas."
Darren i take strong exception to ur statements. why don't u provide some evidence to back up ur claims?
Hindus do not have anything against the christians. There is nothing in Hindu scriptures which urge its followers to go and kill the followers of the cross/christ but there is more than enough in the Bible which urges its followers to kill the "idolators"(hindus) and "unbelievers".
It is the christian missionaries who come to India and insult its religious icons and beliefs and suffer the consequences.The blame lies squarely with the christian missionaries they should show some respect for the local faith and religion. If i come to ur house and start smashing everything around and insulting ur deeply held beliefs and calling u names. how will u react i wonder?
5 - Darren
Appollo,
What I said is true and your "execption" is noted. Laws in India are in place used to intimidate and threaten Christians. Hidus are threatening Christians. And note I NEVER said that anything was in Hindu writings. I have never read Hindu writings and don't care too since it is another false faith. Christians aren't "smashing" anything...just sharing the Gospel...and the Truth of the Gospel scare many people and make them mad.
Here are just some links. Google yourself if you want more. Hidus are just as afraid of people converting to Christianity as Muslims are; hence laws enacted prohibiting talking of Christianity or "attempting" to convert a person to Christianity.
World Net Daily
The 50-year-old leader has shepherded 18 families at the Kodambi Village Church in Hankaltaluk in Karnataka State for several years.
He was forced from his home in the middle of the night as the Hindus threw his personal belongings out of his home and accused him of converting Hindus to Christianity, officials said. The attackers loaded Pastor Joseph's possessions onto a tractor and then sent him to the Mundgode police station, about 20 miles away.
Police there took him into custody, ignored his possessions, but released him a short time later.
The province of Karnataka spreads over the Deccan Plateau and covers about 7 percent of the nation of India, holding a population of about 45 million. The name reportedly comes from the word "Kari-Nadu," meaning black soil or beautiful country, the government's website explains.
The government's document also explains that the region's "religion" includes the "popular belief ... that the almighty power enters the human body and blesses the people."
The region is known for its grandiose temples, the Gomata colossus and the pursuit of lives of "good conduct and self-surrender" which are supposed to lead to "spiritual vision in celestrial songs," the government explains.
Officials said when Pastor Johnson, a senior Christian leader in the Dakshina Kannada district, and a local Christian, David Chacko, went to visit the Mundgode police station to try to resolve the situation, they were the victims of a militant conspiracy with police and were attacked before they let Chacko's home, and dragged to the police station.
The arrest was again followed by harassment, after which they were set free, officials said.
Pastor Chandrakanth
Meanwhile, the attackers also chased Pastor Chandrakanth, an evangelist from the village, and began hunting for other pastors nearby.
"The Voice of the Martyrs has since assisted in providing shelter in a nearby city for Pastor Chandrakanth, who desires to continue his evangelization of the area despite stiff opposition," Voice of the Martyrs said.
VOM was launched by Rev. Richard Wurmbrand, who wrote "Tortured for Christ" about his experiences representing Christ in war-torn Europe. His testimony, and ministry's work, has spread around the globe.
World Net Daily
While I frequently speak of the unwarranted bigotry against people of faith in this nation, a recent instance in India has brought to life the severe environment in which many Christians live across the globe.
Several weeks ago, Liberty University alumnus Dr. Samuel Thomas, president of Emmanuel Mission International, the indigenous mission partner of Hopegivers International, was arrested and jailed for several weeks by shadow law enforcement figures in the state of Rajasthan. He was apparently arrested over a book he had distributed that allegedly contains derogatory references to Hindu deities. See link above for more info.
World Net Daily
The Supreme Court in India has given police across the nation unlimited power to arrest and detain anyone who has been accused of talking to another person about Christianity.
The report comes from the World Evangelical Alliance Religious Liberty Commission, which issued the alert on its News & Analysis mailing list, and Assist News Service.
The WEA report by researcher Elizabeth Kendall said the ruling "opens the door for police with Hindutya sympathies to act as Hindu Taliban." See link above for more info.
I think I've said enough Apollo.
6 - Darren
Appollo,
If I googled I could probably provide evidence of killing. But I will soften my language, i.e. retract killing, and say beatings, jailing, harrassing, and/or other forms of violence against Christians instead.
Satisfied?
7 - Darren
Appollo,
I add killing back and add raping of nuns. See BBC link...
I knew Hindus were killing Christians as they did a priest. But to rape nuns? That I did not know until I read the BBC article referrencing a Human Rights Watch report.
Just an excerpt: "...Christian leaders believe religious hatred lies behind many cases, including the murder in January of an Australian missionary and his sons, and the recent murder of a priest and abduction of a nun."
8 - RJ Elliott
Think of it this way:
If every Muslim in the world woke up tomorrow a Christian, or an atheist, or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or a Jew, the world would be a safer, more peaceful place.
But if every Christian, or atheist, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or Jew, woke up tomorrow a Muslim, the world would be a more dangerous place.
Clearly, the problem here is contemporary Islam.
But what are we to do about it?
Muslims are breeding like rabbits, and they have been very effective in their proselytizing in prisons in the US, and by the sword in other areas. These two facts coupled together mean that Islam is a growing religion (in population, both absolute and relative). Meanwhile, other world religions are declining, either because of increased secularism, or low birth rates, or both. And secularism teaches a philosophy of moral equivalence, which will be of no use in a war or religious/cultural ideologies.
So, basically, we're screwed. Our grandchildren will live under the yoke of fundamentalist Islam. Our granddaughters will wear black bags over their heads and be forced to marry men they have never before met by age 14. Our grandsons will believe that murdering "the infidel" is the surest way to paradise. Our books will be burned, along with our cities.
The West no longer has the guts to defend itself from the barbarians. These are the last days of civilization. Enjoy it while you can, however you can.
Maybe a day at Disneyland?
9 - Nancy
Appollo, do you consider Mother Theresa to be someone whose activities were derogatory to India & Hindus? Your assertion that missionaries come in and insult your religious icons & beliefs is bullshit. 99% of christian missionaries who have gone to India spent their lives slaving away ministering to the very poorest, who fellow Indians wouldn't lift a finger to save because of their caste - and you know it. If they 'disrespected' your beliefs, it was because your beliefs consisted of labelling substantial numbers of human beings as "untouchable" & creating such horrific conditions for them that they had to live worse than animals; and in that, they needed NO justification to try to make their lives something more than living hell in defiance of Indian beliefs & tradition. Stupid or repulsive beliefs deserve no respect. As for missionaries destroying your icons, please provide proof, not just wild statements. I have found no incidents mentioned anywhere that have been substantiated these accusations. Anybody can make slanderous charges, but they can't always prove them.
10 - Huvis
This discussion thread is entirely irrational. Darren, as a fellow Christian, congratulations on the power of your faith: the Christianity you speak of surely isn't the same religion that spurred centuries of warfare against the Gnostics, the Jews, the Muslims (in that order). Do you need to be reminded of the burning of the Great Library?
In truth, the world is a better place because the cause of science and technology and western philosophy (different from theology) won over the last 200 years. It has nothing to do with Jesus or Allah or Buddha. Organized religion is the curse of the modern age, peopled by little insects, each clutching his or her precious little bundle of god-given dogma.
Apollo, your argument is coarsely "patriotic". The facts bear out otherwise; India reminds one of a large cauldron of castes, religions, languages: recipe for disaster. But oh Darren, your long winded rebuttal is intensely funny. First, it is anecdotal, so would you tell me how many Christian communal killings have taken place over the last 50 years in India? Try comparing that with the Christian population. About the whole missionary conversion part, I am reminded of their benevolence in Africa in the last two centuries: "A bible for your country".
Nancy my dear, while the arguments are cogent, I should temper down the indignance a whit. The last thing we want is another crusade to "liberate" caste-ridden Hindus. Then I can assure you we will be doomed (with fully 3/4s of humanity against us).
Nuke, nuke, nuke, nuke. One solution to the world's problems.
11 - John
As one of the few people in the world who have read Pope Benedict's paper, I agree with the Pope.
The conflict between radical Islam and American/Western consumerism/commercialism is only going to get worse. Both sides are evil, in my opinion. But the radical Muslims have got an edge - they're willing to die for what they believe. As Benedict XVI said, that's wrong and it has nothing to do with religion, but it remains a fact that the Muslims have more motivation to advance their cause than America and the West do.
PS: I liked the column. It's time America woke to what it really is.
12 - Christopher Rose
Possibly predictably to those who know me, what I get from this is that it is these organised religious cults which are the enemy of humanity in general. Fundamentalist Protestant, Catholic, Jew or Muslim, it's getting harder and harder to tell them apart...
13 - Apollo
"And note I NEVER said that anything was in Hindu writings. I have never read Hindu writings and don't care too since it is another false faith."
Darren, this shows where u come from. ur just a white Osama bin laden just another religious bigot and like huvis said all ur evidence is largely anectodal and seek to emotionalise the issue.
I could say a lot of things about the ridiculosness of the Bible but unlike ur crusader pope i would not like to offend people who are only nominally christian.
suffice to say that the Romans had a very good justice system on which the current American law courts came to be based. It is very unlikely that they condemned a innocent man. The man they crucified and u worship was a criminal, an outlaw who once entered the temple of jerusalem and began smashing everthing(and u say christians do not smash anything), he stood on roadsides and insulted people going about their lives for their "unbelief". Today he is projected as a "peaceful man" but in reality he was anything but that he was a criminal who deserved to be prosecuted and crucified.
later christians simply turned the argument 180 degrees and made it look like he died for the good of mankind. like they say winners get to write history.
14 - Apollo
Huvis,
suffice to say it is not as bad as it seems or Darren makes it seem. come over to india and see urself what it is like. people here get along perfectly fine until they are provoked. Hindus are slow to anger and the christians missionaries and fundamentalist muslims are not trying hard enough to get them worked up. if Hindus were even 10% as violent as Darren says there would have been no non-hindus in India and like u urself say there are large numbers of them. The churches that have been built since the time of the portuguese 500 years ago still stand. but the same cannot be said about temples or idols where christian missionaries manage a foot hold anywhere.
15 - S.T.M
Could I suggest here that we a) inject a note of sanity into this debate and b) put this into perspective?
The facts: Islamic fundamentalists have been doing this stuff for many hundreds of years. In fact, since the birth of Islam, they've never stopped doing it. The big difference: This is the first time America has been caught up in it.
We got to see it in all its graphic horror, unfolding on television screens around the world - just like the Vietnam war, except this time America is the victim.
But let's not pee our collective pants too quickly, because that is precisely what they want. For all the "military" advantages our way of life gives them in their battle with us, Islamic fundamentalist terrorists have one major problem: they are arrogant and deluded enough to think we are weak and that they can do whatever they want and get away with it.
So far, they haven't been able to do so, and they won't in the future, although they may have some successes.
WWIII isn't upon us yet. While our will remains strong, we have little to fear except fear itself.
For America's own pertinent experience (yes, slightly different, I know) think back a mere 60 years to the Kamikaze attacks on the Allied navies in the Pacific.
What we are experiencing today is on a much smaller scale, but like then, the tactics being employed to counter it are mostly working.
And by its very nature, radical Islam, as a hateful ideology, will bring about its own undoing.
The key to victory is always in knowing your enemy ... America is just getting to know him.
16 - MCH
"But what are we to do about it?"
- RJ Elliott
Umm...enlist?
17 - Darren
I was confronted to provide some evidence and I did. Then once provided, the "attack" takes a different form,i.e. that I am a white version of Osama Bin Laden! (Speaking of racism...Yes I am white but no where did I say I was...bigotry just assumed that). By the way, this "white Osama Bin Laden" as YOU called me is not engaging in terrorist attacks on civilians or advocating suicide/homicide bombers. With the "hostility" I sense from Appollos, I can only imagine the hostility that Christians are actually receiving in India by both the government and Hindus.
India is quickly becoming the "Taliban of Hinduism" in Asia. Imagine a law you can't share Christianity or any faith for that matter! The Bible says "Come let us reason together".
Quote: "The Supreme Court in India has given police across the nation unlimited power to arrest and detain anyone who has been accused of talking to another person about Christianity."
My understanding of Apollos thinking is that if you overturn a table or make a "negative" comment about Hinduism, then you deserve to be murdered or raped for nowhere is his posts does he condemn such violent behavior.
18 - Darren
By the way the evidence I did provide was just glossed over and/or ignored.
19 - Dave Nalle
Ok, I get the part about radical Islam wanting to kill us, but what's your hard-on for the Catholics all about? The Catholic church has one foot in the grave and most Catholics seem about as corrupted by the lure of consumerism as everyone else. Their leaders may talk a good moralistic game, but I don't see anyone listening.
The real comparison is between radical islam and fundamentalist protestantism.
Dave
20 - Josh
Darren and Apollo
Relax. There are going to be both Mother Theresa's and psycho-fanatics in every religion.
21 - Evrviglnt
I am not a religious guy myself, but it is rather obvious that an overwhelming majority of those that take Muslims seriously on their threats are religious Christians. Why it is that religious conservative christians are clearer on the threat when it is in reality a war against the West by Muslim extremists is an ironic twist.
The moral war. It is all about our liberal democracies and the values they esteem, which are utterly antitherical to a theocratic world government envisioned by many in Islam.
Right now at least it ain't about God, its about western values - and that should unite us all, liberal or conservative.
22 - serket
The Muslims and the Catholics, who together speak for nearly four billion people (more people than ten USA's)
A most accurate guess is probably 2.35 billion.
Christopher Rose: Fundamentalist Protestant, Catholic, Jew or Muslim, it's getting harder and harder to tell them apart...
If there is a terrorist attack it is probably a safe bet that it was a radical Muslim.
23 - Mohjho
Or...the real war is between opposing factions of Islam and between the large poor Islamic population and the Islamic dictators that oppress them.
The west is merely collateral damage. This however is changing with U.S. foreign policy becoming more violent, ruthless, and with a crusade mentality.
Remember Jim Jones, or relive him.
24 - Apollo
Darren the "evidence" is not worth the e-paper it is typed on. considering this. it is not that Hindus are doing what they are doing in ur bible belt. They are only protecting their own souls from being corrupted by a bunch of fundamentalist missionaries who have no respect for the local faith and traditions. most indians even if poor will welcome guests and even share what little they have with them.
But the missionaries spread poisonous propoganda, hurt their religious feelings etc... and when things get really unbearable the people lash out and then ur kind goes whining that they are being persecuted. In what way are u different from the whining of CAIR, MCB etc...who condone the actions of terrorists citing western foreign policy?
u called hinduism a "false faith" just like islamists call everyone else a infidel and then u have the spine to call the hindus as somekind of taliban alter ego. read ur own comments and see who is the taliban alter-ego urself or the hindus.
like many say christianity is in its terminal stages and will soon pass away and the sooner the better. it has been a nuisance to humankind since the last 1700 years when Emperor constantine declared it the Roman official religion.
The Romans and greeks till then followed a faith similar to hinduism and there was not a single religious strife till christianity came onto the scene.
25 - Huvis
Darren and Apollo
Sorry to dash both your hopes but despotic and racist Christians will not be waging war against desperate and intolerant Hindus just yet. I also think that both of you really love the chance to have a go at each other. Enjoy your treat.
I am kind of enjoying it myself... :)
Anyway I thought the point of the article was that the rise of radical Islam proves Huntington right: the Clash of Civilisations is nigh. Christ, if it all weren't so bloody sad, that could have been the title of a best-selling game.