Boy howdy, but the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and their Unfit for Command book have really drawn blood. Not just the Democrat Party, but all their operatives in the media have just gone rabbit ass crazy about this. I don't have the time or patience to try to figure out the polling data, but this must be hurting them, causing they're absolutely screaming blue bloody murder.
They've become completely berserk and delirious, screaming "liar, liar" every which way. They're looking desperate. No kind of conservative would be able to get away with this kind of disrespect towards decorated combat veterans, let alone official representatives of a presidential campaign.
Moreover, they don't seem to have much cause in these claims of "lying." They might have some answers to some of the charges, but they've got some people who were right there during some of these incidents. There may be some legitimately different memories of these incidents. These vets clearly actively dislike Kerry because of his post-combat activities, so you might take their claims with a grain of salt. Yet despite the multi-pronged flaying of the Democrats, there's been very little evidence to suggest knowing dishonesty from these critics.
Kerry actually has the more obvious truth problems, with some known factual falsehoods, notably the Christmas in Cambodia thing. He's hemming and hawing about details of atrocities he supposedly witnessed - and that's some particularly nasty stuff to have been fudging on.
He probably doesn't want a real thorough media anal exam of his record, but he volunteered for it with the whole "reporting for duty" thing. Beyond any disputed facts, it does start to look a little funny just to see three Purple Hearts and more in four months time, all without being injured bad enough to ever have to go to a hospital.
There have been reports of Kerry campaign reps absolutely calling for the publisher to withdraw the book. This just sounds nutsy. One, it's sure not going to happen. Two, what do they look like trying to get a book pulled off the market? Imagine what would be said if Bush's people tried such a thing. He'd get incredible ridicule - and he'd deserve it. You don't BAN books you don't like, you ANSWER them.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Jim Carruthers
Since these are the same nut-jobs who smeared John McCain a couple of years ago, and given that Arnie is now the Governator, there's only one conclusion:
The T-1000 has successfully infiltrated 'murrican prezzie politics. As this mess goes along, we just see this killer 'bot assimilating more and more.
C'mom Al, you have a platform: ask them "How's Woofie?"
Then run like hell on your little motor bike.
2 - Jud
Ah, Jim Carruthers ... way to represent your side with another articulate, analytical response. Sticking to the facts instead of mudslinging and jokes. Makes me that much more proud to be on the side of analysis and reason instead of emotion and hypocrisy.
3 - Jim Carruthers
What side? I have no skin in this game. I have the same opinion I have of that deal in Russia with the Oil maphia dude.
I have no say in this USAian mud-slinging match, so I'll mock it all I want to. You people in the States are the ones who pay the bills. For the rest of us in the world, this is just entertainment, like betting on cock-fighting over the internet.
4 - Michael Croft
I find it amazing how totally different this looks from different sides. From the left it's "they can't even get O'Reilly and Matthews to play ball, so it goes to fourth-raters like Malkin" and "this is falling apart so fast, they'll give the Swift Boat Liars more Bronze Stars after they're hit by the shrapnel from the implosion." From the right, it (apparently) looks different, as if it's got some traction.
I don't think it's got much to do with who will do a better job running the country. And it's the same old mud that's been raised against Kerry before. Ho, hum. I'm glad he's saying it isn't true, but it looks like Repub. desperation rather than a problem for Kerry. YMMV, generally by who you're already backing.
5 - Mac Diva
Just as I suspected. No research. Not a single fact. Just blather.
6 - RJ
Al, great minds must think alike. Read my post on the same subject (written before I even knew you had posted about this).
7 - Hal Pawluk
No, Al, Kerry did not testify that he witnessed the atrocities - he reported to the Senate that 150 soldiers had told him about rapes, etc. Here's a partial transcript:
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.
We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. [VIETNAM WAR VETERAN JOHN KERRY'S TESTIMONY BEFORE THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, APRIL 22, 1971]
8 - RJ
Most of these accusations have now been totally discredited.
So, either Kerry was ignorantly spreading untruths, or he was outright lying.
9 - Dan
April 18, 1971, Kerry:
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions..."
10 - Michael
Repubs wouldn't be allowed to say such things about decorated vets? Have you had an anuerism? These cheesedicks ARE saying disgusting things about a decorated vet. Kerry.
As to any of the SBVFT claims being true, the NYT, Washington Post, O'Reilly, McCain, and Matthews have put the beat down on that idea. These guys stories are more full of holes than Kerry's PT boat.
This is the lowest, meanest, most desperate shit we've yet seen in a Presidential race. Bush is going to pay among the electorate for it, too. Cowards and lottery-hopping trust-fund babies like Bush-Cheney do not get a pass for pissing on the honorable service of a war hero from the electorate of this country. Some ethically impaired wingnuts may find this a fine and useful addition to the debate, but real Americans just find it sickening and hateful.
11 - Hal Pawluk
Historical note, Rj: Kerry did not have a time machine.
He could not have gone into the future to see that the stories were discredited, then return to give different testimony.
The Republicans are lying their asses off, and I agree with Michael that "This is the lowest, meanest, most desperate shit we've yet seen in a Presidential race."
However, it is the same slimy way they knocked John McCain out of the primary, so it's probably not "Republicans" as a class but a particular group of "Bush-lovers" that we should be castigating.
12 - RJ
Riiight.
Kerry repeated baseless accusations at an under oath Senate hearing where he defamed his "Band Of Brothers."
Sounds like a guy I'd vote for!
13 - boomcrashbaby
What does the fact that he's not been prosecuted for lying under oath tell you?
14 - RJ
Neither was Clinton.
15 - Shark
For me, all this 'swiftboat vet' crap just demonstrates that the Bush Junta will stop at nothing to hold onto power in November.
NOTHING is beneath them (Max Cleland, anyone?) -- and it's going to get worse.
Look for a few October surprises.
16 - Tim Hall
NOTHING is beneath them (Max Cleland, anyone?) -- and it's going to get worse.
Hopefully some of the shit they're going to try will blow up in their own faces, and end up damaging Bush.
It's nothing new, though. Remember Willie Horton?
17 - Al Barger
I'm sorry, what was the Republican crime against Max Cleland again? Was being crippled supposed to mean that his congressional record on military affairs could not be criticized?
Perhaps it was wrong of the Republicans even to dare put up a candidate to run against the war hero. Apparently that is the standard for Democrats now - at least if it's one of theirs who is the designated hero.
And really, screw Kerry if he can't take the heat. He's running for President of the United States. There are eyewitness veterans just as decorated as him contradicting specific claims of his actions. Let's see how it shakes out.
If the shoe were on the other foot, all y'all pinkos would be demanding just the kind of investigating that the swift boat vets have finally prompted. The main difference would be that you'd be demanding that these decorated veterans be treated with deference and respect.
18 - Rodney Welch
The Chambliss commercial showed images of terrorists and questioned Cleland's "courage to lead" because he voted against eleven of Bush's Homeland Security measures. Given Cleland's war record, and the fact that it takes more courage to be a Senator from the Deep South and take a stand against Bush than the opposite, yeah, it was a nasty slap, and not all that different from what the Swifties are doing. The real story in the case of both Cleland and Kerry is that it reveals the depths to which opponents will sink when the stakes are high.
I don't know what you mean about Kerry not being able to take the heat -- the heat is on, and he's fighting back. I don't agree with the idea of suppressing the Swifties book -- just as I didn't like it when Republicans tried to suppress "Fahrenheit 9/11" -- but the real battle here is being staged in the public and in the press, where it should be, with dueling Vietnam accounts. Unfortunately, even if you proved conclusively that the Swifties are just a lot of blustery old windbags who are willing to state the opposite of what they know to be true because they're still bitter that Kerry was honest about Vietnam when he came home -- as I believe the case to be -- the issue does have the effect of hurting Kerry; the effect of the issue is purely tactical.
The guy in Slate.com got it right: "Before the Democratic nominee acknowledged the attacks on his record, the big papers didn't have much to report. Now that he's responded, however, papers like the Post are presenting both sides of the argument and leaving it to readers to decide what's true and what isn't. Reporters' dogged commitment to "balance" makes them unwilling to say which side is being truthful and which is not. The Post lead takes this route; the paper says Kerry's critics have failed to prove he's lying, but adds that neither side is being totally honest. This answer, although unclear and unhelpful, is where the issue is likely to remain. "
19 - Al Barger
Rodney, you're saying that it was a terrible thing to do to poor Max Cleland to challenge his voting record as a senator? That's disreputable? Since when?
What Republicans tried to supress the Michael Moore movie? I know they bitched about it, but I don't know of anyone who was trying to stop it from being released, or get it recalled by the studio, or going to the FEC. There was certainly nothing like that coming out of any high level Republicans.
And dang you for backing me into having to defend the damned Republicans again. I HATE that.
20 - RJ
"Remember Willie Horton?"
You mean the deranged violent criminal who Dukakis let out of jail so he could commit further violent crimes?
Yes, I do.
(FOOTNOTE: Kerry was the Lt. Gov. for Dukakis...)
21 - RJ
"I don't know what you mean about Kerry not being able to take the heat -- the heat is on, and he's fighting back."
Yeah, he's "fighting back" by demanding that the ads critical of him be TAKEN OFF THE AIR!
22 - Rodney Welch
Al, are you kidding?
"What Republicans tried to supress the Michael Moore movie? I know they bitched about it, but I don't know of anyone who was trying to stop it from being released, or get it recalled by the studio, or going to the FEC. There was certainly nothing like that coming out of any high level Republicans."
I can't believe you have forgotten the huge, concentrated and widespreated effort to silence Michael Moore.
For starters, there was a group called Move America Forward, which launched a massive and well-covered campaign to keep the movie out of theaters, mainly by calling the owners and asking them not to show it. The website was staffed and operated by the PR firm of Russo Marsh & Rogers, which has been involved in numerous Republican campains in the past.
"Time is short," the Move America Forward web site stated, "we must act now to have our voices heard in time to make a difference. Help us get messages from millions of Americans sent to these film industry executives."
A few caved -- although, as is usually the case, it only helped the movie.
Another group, Citizens United, asked the Federal Elections Commission "to investigate whether television ads for the film violate new campaign finance laws," as the BBC puts it.
23 - Rodney Welch
"Yeah, he's "fighting back" by demanding that the ads critical of him be TAKEN OFF THE AIR!"
Well, Al and RJ, now that Kerry has released an ad attacking the Swifties, it looks like the Bush folks are doing the same thing. From today's New York Times:
"Mr. Bush's campaign denied any involvement with the effort by the veterans challenging crucial parts of Mr. Kerry's war record and sent a letter to television station managers calling the new Kerry advertisement libelous."
So doesn't this, in your book, make Bush as much of a wimp as Kerry?
24 - Shark
Big Al: "...And dang you for backing me into having to defend the damned Republicans again. I HATE that."
Somebody call Steve Irwin!
I smell Crocodile Tears!
25 - Hal Pawluk
I smell Crocodile Tears!
So do I, Shark.