Vice President Dick Cheney as quoted in the Jan. 27, 2004 article, Cheney Calls on Allies to Help Spread Democracy:In this new century, facing new challenges, we must remain united to defend our freedom and to meet the shared duties of free nations. . . . Democracies do not breed the anger and radicalism that drag down whole societies and export violence. Terrorists do not find fertile recruiting grounds in societies where young people have the right to guide their own destiny and choose their own leaders. . . . The defeat of fascism and the spread of democracy after World War II was the precondition for peace and prosperity in Western Europe. Likewise, the defeat of Soviet communism and the spread of democracy in Eastern Europe made possible a continent whole and free – and increasingly stable and prosperous. . . . Our choice is not between a unipolar world and a multipolar world. Our choice is for a just, free and democratic world. That requires the insights, sacrifices and resources of all democratic nations. And it requires the courage, sacrifice and dedication of those now denied their basic freedoms.
We spread democracy, stability, prosperity, freedom, justice? We meet the shared duties of free nations? No. We spread pretty yellow cluster bomblets, land mines, depleted uranium, misery, oppression, slavery, McCarthyism, and fascism--not democracy. We bread terrorism and foster it.…
Article comments
26 - bflaska
No, Joe, I just think dick talk detracts from your argument, as you indeed went on to complain about. But you brought it up first. I asked you why you feel the need to do that and you haven't answered. Why don't you tell us all about your dick some more? You also said this carried over from another thread ... is that a way of saying that sometimes influences elsewhere spill over and intrude into other conversations?
27 - JR
James Randall, former president of Archer Daniels Midland:
We have a saying in our company: "Our competitors are our friends. Our customers are the enemy"
28 - Joe
bflaska -
I don't feel a need, it was just a continuation from a previous thread where Diva expressed an interest in my package, if you feel somehow left out, I can point it out to you. If you'd like to hear more about my dick, feel free to email me. As to your last question, my answer is absolutely, but your point is unclear to me.
Shark-
I'm not tracking with you on the level playing field business, because John Doe can buy into a mutual fund as well and take advantage of the billion dollar mutual fund managers. Again, not zero-sum game. I'm not saying there isn't risk, or that it doesn't require research and diligence. It definitely isn't for everyone, but if your willing to accept the degrees of risk involved, it beats the hell out of sticking quarters in slot machines and making the weekly trip to the convenience store to buy your powerball ticket.
And I'm pretty sure Jesus would focus on derivative moves, options, and futures.
29 - Hal Pawluk
Certainly everyone with some money can participate in the stock market, and the profits and losses of the stocks.
But the participation is like that of a flea on the back of a dog - it doesn't have any control over where the dog goes.
Government and big business are so intertwined today that if you step back, what's going on looks more and more like roving packs of dogs scrapping over territory.
Us fleas are just innocent bystanders, although some of us seem to think that shouting "Go, Rover" to encourage one pack or another has some consequence :-)
30 - Mac Diva
Thanks, Hal. You've expressed what I tried to. Now, if the unenlightened only grasp simile and metaphor-:).
Speaking of the fleas on the dog's back, here's an interesting anecdote. Paul Allen, one of the world's richest men, recently filed for bankruptcy reorganization for the city stadium he owns here in Portland. He wants to pass more of the 'losses' it accrues through creative bookkeeping on to others. In man on the street interviews, people actually feel sorry for Allen and say they believe he should be able to get out from any liabilitites regarding the Rose Garden. Their ownership of a stock here or there has them thinking their best interests lies with a billionaire. This is the kind of ignorance, so ably demonstrated by Shark, that I don't see the petty bourgeoisie overcoming any time soon.
31 - Eric Olsen
Corporations will always strive to set things up for their own advantage - that's why we have rules and why it is so important they be enforced. Enron demonstrated this: in its wake lots of very rich people are going to jail and/or facing huge fines. This is encouraging.
I am not happy about the consequences of media consolidation either and say so on an almost daily basis, but it is also extremely obvious that the media does not "speak with one voice." Surely the wild range of perspectives and opinions we link to here in Blogcritics is ample evidence of this.
You can couch it however you wish, but the average citizen can participate in the economic growth of corporations in a number of ways, including directly ownign stock, participating in mutual funds, pension funds, etc. This is real and open to all with even a modest amount of disposable income.
And you can scoff all you want that corporations are in competition with each other, but they are in a bitter daily struggle, both within and between industries, with companies going out of business every day. There are abuses and the field is ALWAYS tilted in favor of money and power, but this does not mean the system is fatally flawed or that it is any more fundamentally "unfair" than life is.
32 - Hal Pawluk
Eric: "that's why we have rules and why it is so important they be enforced"
Tell that to Michael Powell at the FCC. Or Patrick Wood the Third at FERC. Or Michael Leavitt at the EPA. Or any number of this administration's appointees.
33 - Hal Pawluk
Eric: "And you can scoff all you want that corporations are in competition with each other, but they are in a bitter daily struggle, both within and between industries, with companies going out of business every day."
I've never scoffed at that.
But while companies struggle with each other , the competition we're seeing is "turf wars" to see which "gang" gets the spoils.
The politicians argue, but they're part of the same turf war. This administration happens to have gotten the upper hand for a while and has installed a government "of business, by business, for business."
It has been a long process, but seems to have gained speed starting in the late 1970's, and it has been getting worse and worse.
One symptom is the trade deficit, which coincidentally started at the same time and has been accelerating. That deficit has not been financed by internal savings(which would make it okay) but by borrowing from foreign governments, and we now owe $3 trillion-and-climbing to foreign countries.
If that doesn't stop, we're headed for serious problems, and a case has even been made that we're approaching a situation similar to that which existed before the great depression.
I don't know that it's that bad but my gut feel is that Bush might be smarter to lose the next election - there's likely to be a large "correction" before the end of the next presidential term.
I hope not, but ...
34 - bflaska
Joe -- so you were mad at Mac Diva when you came in to the conversation here -- and that's your reason for being abrasive and snotty to everyone else here? And, no, I don't feel left out at all if that's how you talk in company. Or clients ... surely you don't actually work as a broker and talk to prospective clients like that?
As to your arguments, Joe, all I can say is that if a guy starts starts out a conversation by put downs and talking "dick", people tend to think his brain isn't in the right gear.
I mean I wouldn't likely take investment advice from a broker who starts out talking about his dick. Neither would I listen to a guy who's just interested in put downs. I wouldn't be so inclined to trust him with my money, either.
"Dick" and "money" are both current "power" words, but I found it odd you started out: "I see your knowledge of the stock market matches your knowledge of circumcisions."
That doesn't seem to be a very good arguing point and is just designed to be insulting.
Then OK you go on to talk about investment packages.
Sure, the "wise" ones in the market will always prosper, they always do and there's nothing new there. It's generally true, too, that mutual funds and pension funds in particular have taken a severe beating under this administration. To end up slightly ahead in those is going to be a much longer haul than anyone entering the game ever anticipated. "Being aware of the risks" includes knowing that brokers make money on every single transaction when a stock is bought or sold, even if their own clients lose money big or small. And, really, it's only money.
35 - Joe
bflaska-
Again, I'm sorry if I offended you in some manner, it was unintended. Needle you, yes, offend/insult, no. Insofar as being mad a Mac Diva, I don't think that's an accurate statement, certainly I'm as flabbergasted as a person can be with a contrived internet personality that has attacked me and lied about me in this forum, but mad, no, more amused than anthing else. In this particular instance I just saw what she was espousing as fact and presented my opinion.
As for context, the whole circumcision thing came up as the result of an admittedly lame joke I cracked in response to speculation of a Jewish conspiracy theory (Jewish/circumcision... get it? Ok, I already admitted it was lame.)
I do appreciate you sharing your opinion and will try harder to be less insulting to people I don't intend to insult.
36 - LayLa
I love the eternal debate and struggle. Do you want the corporations to win so you can be they're bitch or do you want the government to win so you can be it's. Either way your going to lose.
I fall on the right because at least you know what corporations want....money. The government wants to control you, your thought, your actions. The government assaults every form of organization other than itself. Individual liberties? I can't even supersize my value meal for crying out loud. Religion? The government has seperate but unequaled it out of power for better or worse. Family? Almost gone. Businesses? A good scapegoat and they can raise alot of money to pay government officials off and get them reelected. Businesses are scared shitless of the government that's why they are willing to pay the blackmail fee. Every corportation has a large percentage of it's workforce devoted to following governments forced mandates. You tell me who's really in control.
37 - Mac Diva
I dunno, Layla. Perhaps government and business are not necessarily adversaries, the claim you are relying on. In this age of multinational corporations that have greater power and more money than most countries, it is definitely time to revisit definitions. I find your conceit -- Government=Bad; Business=Good, an oversimplification.
38 - bflaska
Joe,
After that weird introduction, I now say
thanks very much for thinking about this and taking the time here to respond. I sometimes think there's too much verbal crossfire in our culture these days, emotions are flowing over the boundaries, people are sensitive, and it's getting to be almost impossible not to insult someone even unintentionally. I know because I seem prone to this myself. I also don't like even overhearing discussions that degenerate into character assassinations, so I appreciate your remarks.
OK Back to business. There are plenty of small investors in the market. Do you think that mom and pop mutual fund investors across the board have a chance of regaining their footing over the next few years, or should a more extended timeframe be considered? I mean, only if mutuals are something you are following with an active interest, if you're willing to comment now, that is. :)
39 - LayLa
You bring up a good point and one which the above article certainly implies. I should have worded my response more clearly. I am not a fan of big business. They will gladly exploit any person capable of working to the point of slavery. Next, they will manipulate those same people to purchase products that are harmful or unneccessary. Then, to top it all off, they pay off government officials to turn a blind eye to the travesty.
It appears to me though in my limited wisdom that their is even a more insidious power out there. The government, the power that everyone wants to turn to for help. Unfortunately, it is not the product of a small group of conspirators. If it were they could be unmasked and the whole process derailed. The increasingly powerful government is the product of millions of good intentions. It is the great protector, the one everyone looks for in times of need. And she is always willing to help. What the majority has failed to realize is that with every bit of help, be it against a roque nation, terrorists, or a bad business, comes a cost. As with any gift there are strings attached, the government becomes more powerful and they in turn exerts more control over the people.
Are businesses in bed with the government? Absolutely, it would be literal suicide not to be.
Can you do anything about it? No, conventional "wisdom" says to put a halt on creeping increases of government power you should get active, vote, and participate in it. Wow, let's apply that example to terrorist organizations. If you want to stop terrorism maybe you should join your local terrorist organization, donate some cash and work your way up the chain of influence. It makes no sense your not helping your becoming part of the problem.
In the good old days the people could check the government power now and again with a good old fashioned revolution. In the technological age we don't have the capability or willpower, yet!!!!
40 - Joe
That's literally a million dollar question. Investing is, at it roots, an exercise in optimism. Think about it, an investor is bearing an opportunity cost in the belief that a.)in the future, market conditions are going to improve and that b.) they are going to be around to realize the benefits of the investment. So far, history has shown that for every instance of downturn there has been an equal and greater recovery, so in general, yes, I would say there's plenty of opportunities. That's not to say that some investors aren't royally screwed. Investing takes a degree of discipline, risk-taking, and decision-making so if, as investor, you're not willing to exercise those attributes, the stock market isn't the place you should to be putting your money.
I guess to answer your question regarding mutual funds I'll first have to make the disclaimers that I currently have very limited exposure in mutual funds, I'm not a stockbroker (I'm a software engineer), and I've been investing for about fifteen years and experienced plenty of irrational exuberance as well as Holy !@#$! moments. The answer depends on the individual's investing horizon (how long before they need the money), how much risk can they tolerate, and what their investing goals are. If they retreated from the market when things started looking bad and haven't returned then they've missed out on buying on lows over the last few years. If they've continued to systematically put away money they'll probably do ok is the short answer. Additionally, they need to be making sure that over time their evaluating risk and balancing their portfolio in keeping with their horizon ie. moving towards less risky investments (bonds, T-Bills, etc) as they get closer to the time when they want to cash out. It's not really rocket science or alchemy, just a rational approach that has been pretty well documented over the last century. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.