All over the world there are stupid, ignorant and misinformed people parading around in sheep’s--or should I say intelligent people's clothing. Whether in the political, moral or philosophical world, at least 1 out of every 4 people in modern society is an ignorant buffoon. Below is my account of the past 2 months. I have encountered nothing but ignorant buffoons, leading me to think that, quite possibly, the indie music scene may have a larger concentration of stupid people than most other subcultures.
Starting back in February, I had a bit of a disagreement with a gentleman on one of my sites. Now, you may be thinking, "was it about the war...maybe it was about (insert actual pressing concern here)," but no, sadly it was about basic, inalliable free speech rights. He, as well as several that I have encountered since, seem to think that, while it is OK to have a vocabulary of nothing but four-letter words, talking about God in any sense, or having any morality guiding your life at all extinguishes free speech. So, basically, this gentleman as well as two or three others since think free speech is OK unless you are using it to speak about God, the Bible, or are disagreeing with them on any matter regarding swearing of any kind.
Now, I don't particularly agree with swearing in music. I think it is kind of like taking a tube of toothpaste into the Louvre and proceeding to smear the paintings with it. Music is art and swearing, by it's very nature is foul--that is the purpose--to use a word that will shock or in general make the person you are using the word to upset. Swear words are modifiers, meant to make the words around them seem harsher and angrier. Music should be about life experience and beauty. It is art and thus has no room for anything "foul".
Now, before you get all over me about free speech, the above is my view. I have never tried to push it on anyone. I hold dearly to this view and it shows in my music reviews and in the CD's that I buy. So, you can see my conundrum when the above said individuals come beating down my door, torch and pitchfork in hand because I am trying to spread a little morality in an other wise morally degenerate hardcore and punk rock scene.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - san
"If you are not saved... You don't have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong."
You're right: I evaluate right and wrong in my MIND.
2 - Mark Saleski
>You don't have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.
so...if i am, say, a buddhist, thus following associated precepts...i have no guiding determiner for moral action?
sure. you keepin tellin' yourself that.
3 - Jim Carruthers
It's really sad that you would brick up any curiousity you might have about the world and civilization, letting it starve to death on a diet of dogma and superstition.
So, if you are expecting to "literally" apply the tenets of a crazed desert cult to modern life and "indie" music, please let me know how slavery, ritual sacrifice, kosher food, and general inconsistency figure into things as they are now lived.
I think River in Firefly put it best when she said the Bible was broken and she would fix it.
4 - Jim Carruthers
Oh, by the way, in case you wonder about my credentials on things spiritual, I am both a registered Buddist (with the Canadian Navy, because you might as well get officially registered with the people who have the weapons to back up your shit) and an ordained Minister in the Universal Life Church. So don't piss me off or I'll send your ass to hell out of sheer spite.
5 - Chris
Jeff,
I appreciate your thoughts but in a post about how swearing is a clear sin issue . . . your website, or the one your name links to, has an article titled, "I Am An Old Fuck."
6 - Brian Flemming
Jeff,
I can't quite tell what your post is asking for. It is riddled with contradictions.
For example, this...
I am not writing this to pat myself on the back, or to appear self-righteous.
...clearly contradicts this...
If you are not saved, this post is not for you. You don't have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.
How do you hold that you are not being self-congratulatory or self-righteous and at the same time claim that those who have not had the same religious conversion experience as you do not know the difference between right and wrong?
Also this statement...
Most importantly, once you decide that you are going to serve Christ in the music scene by abstaining from the filth that is infiltrating its way into the Christian and secular market, get active. Write reviews on message boards and sites and include your thoughts on the bad aspects of CD's. Call a spade a spade.
...contradicts this statement...
I am sure God in all of His majesty is getting pretty sick of Christians arguing over clear sin issues like swearing. Lets divert that same energy into winning the lost.
Where should the energy go--into criticizing filth or saving the damned?
Also, on behalf of every non-Christian on Earth--all five billion-plus of us--I would like to give you a hearty "Fuck you."
I know that is swearing, but it is clearly the most appropriate response to someone who stands in public, points at me and says, "You are not moral."
Jeff, you've placed yourself in a superior position to EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH. And you have trumpeted this belief publicly. I don't mind if you believe in private that everyone on Earth but you and other followers of Christ does not have "a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong." But when you express this prejudice in public, I'm going to, well, call a spade a spade.
Your belief in your own moral superiority is unfounded. "So much stupidity" indeed. Your desire to spread that belief to others is potentially toxic--every bit as toxic as racism, which also places the believer of the dogma above all others.
As a former born-again Christian, I have an intimate knowledge of this kind of prejudice. I know that part of the dogma is that you need to go out and witness. But if you feel that compels you to say to the unsaved masses, "You don't have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong," you can expect to be called what you clearly are.
You are a bigot.
7 - Chris
Brian and Jeff,
Let's recast this article in simpler terms, removing any overreaching, by each of you.
If you are going to be in a Christian Band, hold yourself out to be a Chritian Band and market to Christians, it would be a good idea to not put some things in your music or live a certain way. Maybe more than a good idea, it would be the right thing to do.
Boiled down it is a pretty good argument, whatever your personal beliefs. Analogy I think works for both of you, maybe not though: Hearing a Christian Band use fuck in a song would be like hearing Rage Against The Machine (or Audioslave, etc.) sing about how great George Bush is.
8 - Eric Olsen
This is quite a discussion, into which I will not cast a substantive opinion. However, I will say that Jeff was brave to state his ethos as uncompromisingly as he did, but I think he should have been clearer in stating that his views on religion apply to his life as opposed to all lives, since clearly people do have other moral compasses than Christianity. Some of the most stringently moral people I know are atheists.
But it is also a perfectly legitimate assertion that people should publicly live up to their beliefs and not succumb to situational ethics.
9 - Jeff Petermann
Again, you all have proved my point. Thanks.
10 - Mark Saleski
...and you have proved ours.
thank you.
11 - Phillip Winn
Wow, I can't think of much to say to this that someone I know hasn't already said. So to the general comments about swearing, I reply with this article about swearing, written by Eric Rigney.
And regarding the passionate plea for emails, I reply with this article about "Wretched Urgency", written by Michael Spencer (aka The Internet Monk).
For the rest, well, what can I say? Plaese focus a little more on "Love your neighbor" and a little less on stances are Biblically unsupported beyond a(n over-)generous application of Philippians 4:8. Please re-read Romans and stop embarrassing yourself with foolish and inaccurate claims about whether or not a non-believer can tell right from wrong. And please, please, please realize that pride is a sin, a really bad one. Unlike most of the things you look down in your post.
Thanks for reading. And read that "Wretched Urgency" article again.
12 - Brian Flemming
Eric,
You wrote:
I will say that jeff was brave to state his ethos as uncompromisingly as he did
I guess "brave" is one word to apply. I suppose it would also be "brave" to say something like: "This message is not intended for non-Aryan people. If you are not white, you obviously have no way to distinguish between right and wrong."
It would take a certain amount of courage to say something that obnoxious in a public forum, exposing one's bigotry for all to see.
But, in addition to "brave," it would also be a few other things.
Jeff,
Do you disagree that your prejudice against those who do not share your particular religious belief is indistinguishable from racial prejudice, or does your silence on the matter indicate that you agree?
If you disagree, what's the difference?
13 - Jeff Petermann
Here are my thoughts. First of all to Phillip: I have attended a Christian school, a public school and then decided to pursue seminary. I have studied Greek and Hebrew and I know what Phillipians 4:8 says. I also know what Paul was talking about when he was discussing the meat sacrificed to idols and whether or not is should be available to eat. Go read that section of scripture. Then come back and tell me that what I am saying about Christians making other Christians stumble is wrong.
I am not religiously discriminating against anyone. In fact, I said in the above article that if you are not a believer, this post is not for you. I am simply saying, and I will end with this, religion doesn't save you, going to church doesn't save you--a relationship with Jesus Christ saves you. If you are living like the facts that I listed above are merely speculative opinion--you better be right, because when it is all said and done,"EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."(emphasis mine)
14 - esmith
I think it's Louvre, not Louver. It was in the third paragraph,not the first where you were talking about stupid people in sheep's clothing.
15 - Phillip Winn
Jeff - I am a believer, so logically this post was for me. However, while it fulfilled one of the two requirements I've discerned that Christ followed on the rare occasions he was critical of others (it was directed at those who claim the name of God), it seemed to fail on the other (it was not directed at internal attitudes, but at external actions). As it happens, I'm not a swearing person, but my own "moral fight" isn't the issue at hand here.
I won't get into a urinating contest with you over which of us has spent the most time in Christian schools or studied the most Greek. In fact, this will be my last post on the matter. Instead I will simply say this: I am sorry that you have rejected the body of Christ's communication with us and chosen to focus instead on prideful false holiness. I urge you to read both of the articles I mentioned in my original post, since it doesn't appear you have yet, and consider them carefully as advice written by Christians and recommended by a Christian, and spend some time considering what place pride has in your life and how pride rates against some of the external behaviors that beset you. The latter half of 2 Cor 10 might be helpful here, too.
Now, that aside, since this is my last comment, I'm going to make it worth my while by addressing the issue I think you meant to focus on, instead of the one you did. I have seen many, many people who outwardly profess the name of Christ and yet it has no effect whatsoever on their behavior. Sometimes this is because they bear the label as a result of a labeled upbringing but have never internalized the general moral flavor of Christianity. I'll leave it as an exercise for the readers to determine whether those people meet Christ's standard for being one of His people. Reference James, perhaps, in making that consideration.
Sometimes I've seen people who have no desire whatsoever to actually be a Christian or live the life of a Christian, but see the undiscerning audience that buys every piece of garbage the "Christian music" industry puts out as a cash cow. I've heard rumors that much the same is true in the country industry, but I'll stick with what I know and have seen myself.
And sometimes people just don't know better, because what is "obvious" to you is not at all obviously anything other than a cultural influence to many people, even Christian people.
So I understand your frustration with people who blithely and routinely claim a label without exerting the sacrifice and effort one should to earn that label. But I encourage you to apply Phil 4:8 yourself and take your eyes off of those who vex you so and concentrate a bit more on your own relationship with Christ. I'm (mercifully) not the arbiter in such things, and it could be that you're simply having a bad day, but your statements here tell me that you've got more problems in your Christian life than how bands whose CDs you review act on the road.
Peace.
16 - Jeff Petermann
First, I always screw the word "Louvre" up. Thank you for pointing that out, it has been corrected.
Phillip, Thanks for the honest and sincere discussion. I will read those articles and I will also pray about my attitude. While everything I said above i stand by, I may have done it with a little bit of anger and that never gets the correct message across.
Eric, thank you for reading this in the spirit that it should have been written in. Thank you for not putting up devensive walls and just reading the article. As always, you are the man.
17 - san
If you are not an atheist, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Jainist, Episcopalian, Shintoist, etc., this comment is not for you.
Oh, come on, esmith, can't you see he was writing about WINDOW BLINDS? Apparently, German window blinds, because he capitalized the common noun.
And for Jeff: Christ died for posts like yours.
(NOTE: I may should not have posted this, but since I'm not saved -- although I was once "saved" by the police from three muggers; does that count? -- and have been recently informed that I possess no "determiner between what is right and wrong", I feel a strange sense of release. I'm like a wolf in sheep's clothing, or something. So what the hell. Oh, sorry, Jeff... Hell.)
18 - san
Phil, baby, it's "pissing contest". If you need something without the P-word in it, try "circular polemics" or the like.
19 - Brian Flemming
If you are Jeff Petermann, this comment is not for you. You don't have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.
Everyone else, I have 2 questions. Consider this quote from Jeff:
...because when it is all said and done,"EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
My questions are:
1. If George W. Bush believes this, are you comfortable with that?
2. If George W. Bush believes this, do you think Muslims in the Middle East should welcome the U.S. military with open arms?
20 - Jeff Petermann
yeah, you're right, I would be way more comfortable with him believing it is cool to have sex with anything that moves like his predecessor.
21 - Brian Flemming
Jeff,
I said that comment wasn't for you.
But since you read it anyway, how about actually answering the two questions I posed instead of taking a shot at President Libido?
To refresh your memory...
---------------------
I have 2 questions. Consider this quote from Jeff:
...because when it is all said and done,"EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
My questions are:
1. If George W. Bush believes this, are you comfortable with that?
2. If George W. Bush believes this, do you think Muslims in the Middle East should welcome the U.S. military with open arms?
------------------------
I await your direct, non-evasive answers.
22 - Phillip Winn
Brian -
1. As long as it doesn't affect his work, sure.
2. Since his actions don't seem to be those of a man trying to engineer some sort of mystical showdown at Armageddon, yes. That they don't has nothing to do with the President's faith and everything to do with a culture that is oriented towards things that we in the west don't tend to label "success." Note the distinct lack of an imflammatory value judgement - I merely state things in the terms with which I'm most comfortable, without bringing in my own private judgement on the wisdom or moral "rightness" of those actions.
Heck, I believe Jeff's statement as well, being Biblical and all, but I also place it at some point in the unforseeable future, well past my own progeny's lifespans for as long as I can imagine. Therefore it doesn't affect my actions in any way. That is, I strive to keep my actions in line with Christian morality, but not because of that particular verse. it's a matter of personal character for me.
23 - Brian Flemming
Phillip,
I sincerely appreciate the directness of your answers.
1. I personally am not comfortable with a President who clearly believes that he belongs to a special group of people who are going to Heaven, and everyone else is damned (he has said this, quite directly), even if he has the political acumen not to talk about it very much. I worry about it the same way I would worry if he were a member of the KKK but had pledged not to let his racism influence policy. Thanks for the reassurance W, but...you still feel that way, deeply, and that's a problem.
I'm not sure how a feeling rooted this deeply could possibly not "affect his work." I worry, frankly, about the kind of personality that could form this point of view. It seems to me to require great insensitivity and arrogance, as well as a lack of (or suspension of) intellectual rigor. Calling Billy Graham to settle an argument with his mother about who is going to Heaven? Please. I'll take President Blowjob any day over that.
2. You write, "Since his actions don't seem to be those of a man trying to engineer some sort of mystical showdown at Armageddon, yes." I don't get it. What would those actions look like. I mean, if a Muslim in the Middle East were to ask these questions, how would you answer them:
If your President believes we are spiritually inferior to him, how can we trust him?
If your President is not trying to export Christianity to our region, why does he let the evangelical minister closest to him come here and proselytize? Why doesn't he at least ask Graham, Will you please not do that?
24 - Jeff Petermann
My answer was a direct response. I am very comforable with the president having faith in God, and in his belief that at the end of things, we will all answer to God. I agree with Phillip in the sense that i was not saying that we all have to bow before the Lord now. In fact it won't happen until the judgment.
So in response to your comment, yes, I am more than happy with the president's beliefs and I definitely think that the Muslims should welcome us with open arms because right now their only other alternatives are eiter:
1. Mass anarchy
2. Starving to death or dying from lack of water
3. Continuing with the holy wars against themselves until they all die off
I think welcoming a president with morals and a belief in God sounds like a way better alternative.
One more thing. If I am wrong, and Christianity is nothing but a farse, and their is no God and we will never have to face him, then the worst thing that would happen is that I lived a good life. If you are wrong, and their is a God, and we will have to face Him in a final judgement, what do you think the worst outcome of that scenario would be?
Just a thought.
25 - san
"1. Mass anarchy
2. Starving to death or dying from lack of water"
Two circumstances that we caused by invading Iraq. We are morally obligated to fill these needs, whether or not we are accepted with open arms.
"If you are wrong, and their is a God, and we will have to face Him in a final judgement what do you think the worst outcome of that scenario would be?"
Depends on which God you are talking about. Old Testament God or New Testament God? They are different gods. It's unfortunate these distinct bodies of work were slapped together in the same book: That has confused a lot of people.