"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it."
On the Monday, August 23, 2005 edition of "The 700 Club," Reverend Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Coalition who was also a 1988 candidate for the Republican nomination for president, said that Hugo Chavez, the president of Venezuela, would make his nation "a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent." And then he went on, inciting an international firestorm, with remarks that Venezuelan Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel called "terrorist statements."…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments126 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
That's easy, Doug. America/democracy is GOOD. Communism is EVIL. Democracy is morally superior to communism. That's a given. If you don't think so, there's no hope for you. Go join a gulag and wait in line three days for a loaf of bread, comrade.
There is moral violence and there is immoral violence. People with true moral clarity can make the judgment between the two.
Obviously, you can't make this judgment or are unwilling to do so for fear of being ostracized by your liberal weenie friends..
127 - Dave Nalle
Ah, so MSS is a Randite - that explains a lot. I wonder if he's into Scientology too. They go together.
Dave
128 - Al Barger
Easy there Dave. Ya start disrespecting Rand, you answer to me.
129 - Margaret Romao Toigo
For Blogcritics to get as many hits per day as it does while maintaining virtually spam-free comments is a credit to the software policies implemented here.
Mark the Sane and Sensible, who has called me "The dhimmi (yes, I had to go look that up) diva of blogcritics.com," wrote, "I am not interested in making comparisons to suit your agenda to be a Muslim apologist."
I didn't ask you to make comparisons to suit me, I asked you to make comparisons to defend your previous assertion that, "All cultures, people, and philosophies (which would include religions) are NOT on the same moral plane. Christianity and Judaism are far superior to Islam as far as tolerance and recognizing personal liberty."
"Muslim apologist?" You will not put me on the defensive that easily.
Women don't get much respect in the Bible, either. And many of the passages contained in that link have been used to rationalize wife-beating -- and worse.
Until very recently, women haven't really had it too good in many parts of the world, including the West. For example, womens' right to vote was not recognized in the US until the year 1920.
Women have been told, "you've come a long way, baby," but we still have along way to go. Our rise to power is still in progress in most parts of the world. Sure, we're a little closer here in the US, but we're not there, yet.
Keep an eye on Saudi Arabia and other countries in which women are still marginalized, because they'll eventually be catching up.
The women of those nations will not remain mired in oppressive antiquity for all time, for notions of feminism are reaching them via modern technology and these notions are making them -- and even some of the younger menfolk -- think.
Human progress, which moves along at an uneven pace that is not controlled by human organizations, is being made.
People who wish to attempt to stem the tide of progress have often used anachronistic passages from religious scriptures to rationalize their case.
Take a study of the long and arduous history of the women's suffrage movement here in the US. Or the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s. Many Biblical passages were used to rationalize the anti-progress forces who did not wish to see their prejudices become obsolete.
Anthropology and world history are among my favorite topics of study. Timing issues simply do not wash with me as justification for the arrogant notion that "Christianity and Judaism are far superior to Islam as far as tolerance and recognizing personal liberty." because the speed of progress cannot be altered to suit the need for instant gratification.
I see that you've been very busy posting comments critical of Islam (and even Islamic governments), but where are the rest your comparisons?
You've already successfully established that many tenets of Islam are indeed intolerant and oppressive (especially toward women). Good job, thus far.
Now, you must finish it by providing examples of the "far superior" tolerance and recognition of personal liberty in Christianity and Judaism.
130 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"I wonder if he's into Scientology too. They go together."
Scientology is a haven for failed Christians and Jews who still need that ol' time religion with the added bonus of some hip grade-Z science fiction thrown in. Anyone that can truly believe that space aliens lived in volcanoes on earth eons ago should be committed, sedated, and strapped to a hospital bed.
Just look at the people who are into Scientology (Tom Cruise, John Travolta, et al) and you get an idea of the level of intelligence that submits to a process that sucks your bank account dry in exchange for the right to declare yourself a "Chief Operating Thetan" (whatever the hell that means!) to look into the "souls" of novatiates.
131 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Mark the Sane and Sensible wrote, "Being anti-egalitarian is not being bigoted. It is recognizing that gray areas do not exist and there is right and wrong, good and evil."
Egalitarianism is the belief that all people are equally deserving of political, economic, social and civil rights.
Anti-egalitarians -- those who believe that some people are more or less deserving of political, economic, social and civil rights than others -- are bigots.
It takes far more effort and courage to be unilateral and absolute.
Unilateralism and absolutism are born of pride, which is a deadly human weakness. The cowardly and the slothful engage in these practices in order to avoid their obligation to justify their prejudices with actual reason rather than arbitrary proclamations of superiority.
There is no rhetorical hiding place more comfortable and safe than that which lies behind those unilateral walls of absolutes -- even if they must, from time to time, be reinforced with willful ignorance, feigned obtuseness and other forms of intellectual dishonesty.
"It's too easy to wallow in the comfort of the nebulous gray area because no judgments of others are required by its inhabitants."
To avoid passing judgments upon our fellow man, which us mere mortals are unfit to do (that's the Lord's purview, you know), requires an awesome amount of fortitude -- and in quantities unattainable for our flawed temporal flesh -- because temptations to our pride are the most difficult to resist.
People are not truly "equal" and never will be. There will always be haves and have nots, the weak and the strong, the beautiful and the ugly, the exploiters and the exploited, and yes, even the good and the evil.
Except for the good and evil bit (being mere flesh, we are unfit to make such judgments), I agree because of the unavoidable truth that some people are smarter, stronger, prettier, more ambitious, etc. than others.
But the value of one's learned and/or inborn physical beauty and/or strength, knowledge, skills and abilities has no bearing upon one's value as a human being.
"Human beings were never wired to forcibly relinquish their bounty or resources to anyone outside their own immediate families or tribes."
Indeed, that is the truth. But acknowledging the obvious weaknesses of our flesh does not relieve us of the responsibility to use our God-given courage to rise above our base nature.
"I've also observed that when 'cultural awareness' is jammed down people's throats in the effort to unite, the farther apart people actually become."
That only happens amongst the intolerant. Us egalitarians have found that cultural awareness brings different peoples closer together to the enlightenment of all.
And what's this business about jamming cultural awareness down people's throats when the incentives are purely societal, not legislative?
132 - Doug Hannan
There is moral violence and there is immoral violence. People with true moral clarity can make the judgment between the two.
Obviously, you can't make this judgment or are unwilling to do so for fear of being ostracized by your liberal weenie friends..
No my friend, you are so clouded by the shibboleths of that dead white female you lack the moral clarity to condemn the clearly unconscionable.
America/democracy is GOOD. Communism is EVIL. Democracy is morally superior to communism. That's a given. If you don't think so, there's no hope for you. Go join a gulag and wait in line three days for a loaf of bread, comrade
I DO THINK democracy is morally superior to communism. I DO AGREE that Muslim moderates are not vigorus enough in their condemnation of hate-spewing extremists. So stop erecting these straw men and making unwarranted assumptions about your opponents. And stop dancing around the question "How can you claim moral superiority to Islam and Communism while supporting the Christian hate-spewing extremists in your midst."
A note to the moderator. You said:
But, for the most part, the Reverend's "on-air, off-the-cuff call for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez" tempest in a teapot is now old news -- and it's even older news when you consider the 75 year-old Reverend's already well-established reputation for saying outrageous things on his television program
Listen Chavez is going to milk this for years just as Bush is milking 9/11 to justify his occupation of Iraq. Yesterday Chavez announced no more missionaries will be permitted into Venezuela and of course the Arab media continue to make hay on the issue. Frankly who can blame them - when your opponents hand you a gift like this of course you're going to run with.
If ALL Americans from the President on down to us bloggers had vigorously condemned Robertson then this issue would not be giving Chavez the comfort and ammunition that it has and will.
133 - mark the sane and sensible
Ms. Toigo:
You continue to frame your arguments in textbook Judeo-Christian tenets, which have no bearing on my own thinking and the thinking of many people in this world. I am an atheist, so reciting the KJV just bores me. I would feel the same way if someone recited the Torah, even though I am a Jew. My interest in Israel is based on my blood heritage. They are my tribe and I am loyal to my tribe to the bitter end. I don't need holy scripture to affirm my heritage. It's a matter of biology, not theology. Science, not superstition.
I find it very significant that you ignored the factual information condemning Islam as a totalitarian denomination bent on world domination, as evidenced by the volumes of clerical proclamations eminating from mosques around the world.
Continue to live with your head in the sand, Ms. Toigo, be my guest. I will continue to see the world for the foul sty that it is where survival and self-preservation are the only true goal.
134 - Doug Hannan
My interest in Israel is based on my blood heritage. They are my tribe and I am loyal to my tribe to the bitter end.
Unless as a planet we can somehow elimiate this kind of sick thinking and blind loyalty to one's "tribe" or "country" and its concurrent demonization of all non-tribal members, then wars are going to be with us for a very long time.
This has absolutely nothing to do with moral superiority. On the contrary it is a appeal to the very basest and vile aspects of our psyche.
If you haven't noticed we're not throwing spears at each other ay more. In a world that has invented nuclear weapons this kind of thinking will inevitably doom us all since sooner or later the other "tribe" will acquire them and then it's game over for everyone.
135 - mark the sane and sensible
"then wars are going to be with us for a very long time."
I certainly hope so. Why do you libbies continue to deny your primordial brain wiring? We are what we are.
Man is a savage fighting animal, just like any other animal in nature. All your genteel pretensions and laughable expectations isn't going to change that fact.
"since sooner or later the other "tribe" will acquire them and then it's game over for everyone."
Right, and the cycle of life will enventually start over again in the future. Human beings won't be missed in the interim. In the scale of the earth and universe, we are puny and relatively insignificant.
136 - Doug Hannan
That post is so barking insane I can only assume you are pulling our collective legs.
137 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Mark the Sane and Sensible, Judeo-Christian tenets have bearing on my thinking because they are the basis of my conscience. Many atheists adhere to Judeo-Christian philosophy even though they do not believe in the divinity of Christ because there is a vast difference between superstition and morality.
Speaking of science, did you know that the peoples of the Earth are all of the same species, homo sapiens sapiens, and that the differences between the peoples of the world are cultural, political and social rather than biological?
I did not ignore your factual data about Islam. In fact, I complimented your effort in presenting that information (see comment #129).
You have quite effectively demonstrated the intolerance and oppression of many tenets of Islam. I get it and I agree with it. But, you're only halfway there.
If you wish to defend your assertion that "Christianity and Judaism are far superior to Islam as far as tolerance and recognizing personal liberty," you must also present examples of the "far superior" tolerance and recognition of personal liberty in Christianity and Judaism.
"I will continue to see the world for the foul sty that it is where survival and self-preservation are the only true goal."
Being realistic about the effects of the basest part of our human nature upon the state of the world is prudent because it keeps us humble, but if we eschew our natural virtue, conscience and ability to reason and make our basic goals into our only goals we will never progress beyond our bestial nature.
138 - mark the sane and sensible
Doug: this deserves clarification: No peace was ever won without war. If you can, try and provide an example in modern times where this was achieved.
139 - Margaret Romao Toigo
A septuagenarian TV preacher making empty threats on his television program can hardly be compared to the tragedy of 9/11.
Sure, Mr. Chavez is going to milk the Reverend's "fatwa" for all it's worth, but unlike 9/11, that milk supply is going to dry up mighty fast. And if Mr. Chavez milks that particular teat too hard, he is going to be perceived as a cowardly and petty prima donna.
140 - mark the sane and sensible
Ms Toigo:
It is interesting that the benchmarks of progress of the Western women's movement all took place only decades ago, which in itself, is clearly illustrative of Judeo-Christian moral superiority over Islam. Let's please remember that this is 2005, not 1920. The indictment of Islam's treatment of its people is based on today's record. Your idealistic hopes for the future prospects of women under present Islamic tyranny is touching but misguided. As long as the fundamentalists keep the moderates cowed, as present history shows, the changes you yearn for ain't gonna happen.
141 - Doug Hannan
A septuagenarian TV preacher making empty threats on his television program can hardly be compared to the tragedy of 9/11.
And I wasn't doing that. I was just making the point that political leaders will cynically exploit any event to their own ends.
Sure, Mr. Chavez is going to milk the Reverend's "fatwa" for all it's worth, but unlike 9/11, that milk supply is going to dry up mighty fast. And if Mr. Chavez milks that particular teat too hard, he is going to be perceived as a cowardly and petty prima donna.
Don't be so sure. Nearly 4 years after 9/11 Bush is using it to justify his occupation of Iraq and getting away with it among his supporters. What makes you think Chavez won't flog this for just as long. Didn't you notice the assassination plots against Castro in the sixties are still being mentioned today?
142 - mark the sane and sensible
Ms. Toigo:
I wish to add that very few, if any, aspects of Islam in its treatment of its people and view of the world has changed since 1000 AD. That's 1000 years of stagnation and you truly believe that reform is impending? Pul-eeeze!
143 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Mark the Sane and Sensible,
The women's movement is still in progress (women have attained only partial social, economic and political equality in most parts of the world). Our ascent to power is nowhere near complete and will likely take another 100 years or so (give or take 50 years).
For at least the last 150 years, social, economic and political movements have tracked pretty closely with technological advancements.
Satellite television, for example, has only recently allowed many people (in countries whose governments used to be able to use technology to keep their citizens isolated from the news of the world) to finally see what they've been missing.
But the current state of the worldwide women's movement -- which is always in flux, thus the reason it is called a "movement" -- is not a sufficient defense of the assertion that "Christianity and Judaism are far superior to Islam as far as tolerance and recognizing personal liberty."
If you wish to prove your point here, you must produce examples of the "far superior" tolerance and recognition of personal liberty in Christianity and Judaism.
And you must do so with at least half of the verbosity (an equal amount would be far more compelling) you already used to successfully demonstrate the intolerance and oppression of Islam. This is the only credible method for illustrating effective and convincing comparisons.
For the past several days, your name has been at the very top of the "Top Commenters" list with an average of 60 comments per 24 hours -- a quantity of comments that exceeds even that of this site's mangers and editors.
I have also noted that most of the comments you have entered here at Blogcritics have the same theme (as those entered under this article) regardless of the topics of the forums in which you have contrived to make them relevant.
I would like to believe that you sincerely wish to discuss these matters pragmatically, but the longer we go on, and the more of your responses I read, the more I am convinced that you do not really wish to engage in any sort of meaningful discourse, but are rather looking for contextual opportunities -- no matter how esoteric or ambiguous -- to post yet more of your hateful propaganda.
144 - nugget
margaret sounds more like Rand than mark.
145 - nugget
margaret that was not in reference to your most recent post, but post # 137.
146 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
Ms. Toigo:
You really slay me as to how blind you are to the political bias on display of this blog site.
"I have also noted that most of the comments you have entered here at Blogcritics have the same theme ..."
And I have noticed the same theme from 98% of the other blog critics here. Would you like to know what that is?
It's "Bush stinks, our country is wrong, war stinks, Republicans stink, liberals know better, other countries know better, yadda yadda yadda."
If that isn't a monochromatic theme I don't know what is.
Do any of you ever praise our country for the good its done for the world?
Of course you don't. It's a constant and unwarranted complaining about our present leaders and their policies. The self hater David Mark talks about the right to dissent. There is nothing here to dissent about. Dissent is warranted when all your freedoms and liberties are stripped away, not when you are inconvenienced by a President not of your political stripe. Our country is doing great. Gas could be cheaper and the immigration issue could be better but there's a housing boom and unemployment is low. Our country is strong and not cowing to foreign terrorists. We're kicking ass in the ME and not being a bunch of yellow bellied cowards about it. That's what America should be about ... power, strength, and unyielding resolve.
I am one of the few people saying what should be said because I love my country the way Americans used to love this country before the sick counterculture ruined it back in the 60s and 70s. Some of you still think this is the Vietnam Watergate era.
You and your comrades bash America but rarely non-democratic cultures and NEVER America haters. Why not? This is not the America I grew up in. The America I grew up in we loved our country unconditionally and only trusted foreigners when they proved to us they weren't trying to harm us or our way of life in some way. We mistrusted anyone that wasn't a part of the mainstream. There was no such thing as diversity. You were expected to conform to the mainstream if you were black, brown, or yellow, otherwise, you lost out. When my forefathers came to this country, they didn't ask to be accomodated with special programs or signs in their native tongue. They shut up and joined the team. They worked hard and prospered and lived their lives without fanfare. They thanked their lucky stars that America existed and never complained about their country, because this was a hell of a lot better than where they came from.
That's the way it should be. Sadly, this way of thinking and appreciating America is dying because of people like you, Ms. Toigo., people like you and the other left wing nutjobs here.
I have said that there is a culture war for the heart and sould for America. I refuse to bow to progressives and their touchy feely methods of dealing with people and societal issues.
I know that I am at a disadvantage here but as long as the things that I hold dear are attacked, I will attack back with even more vigor.
147 - Doug Hannan
"I would like to believe that you sincerely wish to discuss these matters pragmatically, but the longer we go on, and the more of your responses I read, the more I am convinced that you do not really wish to engage in any sort of meaningful discourse, but are rather looking for contextual opportunities -- no matter how esoteric or ambiguous -- to post yet more of your hateful propaganda."
I think what she's trying to say here Mark is: "you're a big f**king wanker."
148 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"I think what she's trying to say here Mark is: "you're a big f**king wanker."
Please note for the record how the "fair and sensitive" liberal who is very concerned about "diversity" and "tolerance" for others can't seem to put his money where his big fat mouth is.
This is why liberals are as phony as the day is long. They don't care about people and divergent views. They only care about advancing their sick touchy feely agenda. They'd rather guarantee free speech rights for convicted pedophiles (see ACLU) than give a conservative the same consideration.
149 - Doug Hannan
There is nothing here to dissent about. Dissent is warranted when all your freedoms and liberties are stripped away, not when you are inconvenienced by a President not of your political stripe.
Bullcrap. Once again you are revealing your fascist tendencies. In a democracy dissent is ALWAYS permissible. As soon as you make it a conditional right you are descending into totalitarianism.
You and your comrades bash America but rarely non-democratic cultures and NEVER America haters.
Another fallacy that right-wing nutjobs like to promolgate. I have clearly stated that moderate Muslims are wrong in refusing to condemn the extremists in their midst, just as you are wrong in refusing to condemn the extremist Pat Robertson in your midst. Which I challenge you once again to do. No more weaseling away from the question. Yes or no. Do you condemn the statement that Pat Robertson made calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez?
150 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"In a democracy dissent is ALWAYS permissible."
Permissible, yes. But always appropriate? No.
"I have clearly stated that moderate Muslims are wrong in refusing to condemn the extremists in their midst"
Wow, you took a stand against some MODERATES! Wow, what a risk taker you are, Doug! You're certainly not a PARTISAN HACK after THAT admission! Taking on a moderate is like having a boxing match with your 80-year old grandmother.
How about growing a pair and bashing some touchy feely liberals for a change?
151 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
Ms. Toigo:
"...the more I am convinced that you do not really wish to engage in any sort of meaningful discourse, but are rather looking for contextual opportunities --"
"meaningful discourse" in your estimation, Ms. Toigo, would be to buy into your foolish egalitarian nonsense.
And what exactly is wrong about looking for "contextual opportunities"? Does it disappoint you that I don't play by YOUR rules of engagement? Tsk tsk.
"-- to post yet more of your hateful propaganda."
What is hateful are your left wing attacks on our President's ability to lead and our nation's foreign policy.
152 - Doug Hannan
Taking on a moderate is like having a boxing match with your 80-year old grandmother.
Since you're still too gutless to answer my question I think she would whip your sorry ass.
153 - troll
Mark the Sane and Sensible: -What is hateful are your left wing attacks on our President's ability to lead and our nation's foreign policy.-
good Freudian fuck up - you just called our nation's foreign policy hateful - hard to dissent here
slow down - take a breath - keep your quips sensible...
oh yeah - condemn Robertson...yes or no? - take your answer avoiding butt off my bridge
troll
154 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
hey troll, what was your user name a few moments ago?
155 - troll
troll
156 - Nancy
Ooooo...you're in trouble now, Troll: it's going to blast you with the withering fire of its wit & scorn & call you a 'poopie-caca' or a 'commie puke'. Better duck!
157 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"Since you're still too gutless to answer my question"
My views on this non-issue on Robertson have already been stated elswhere. If you can't follow along that's not my problem.
Just admit you hate conservative religious leaders, especially if they are Christian, and especially if they are American, and stop the pretense of being interested in this matter for the sake of intellectual curiosity.
158 - troll
but you see Nancy - I am a hairy assed commie puke and a poopie cacca consumer (I enjoy M the S&S's commentary as much as Bambeck's)
I don't know about Doug but I love religious leaders, Christians and Americans - tasty treats all when they mount their high horses and do stupid stuff
troll
159 - Doug Hannan
Yep. As predicted, too gutless to answer a direct yes or no question.
160 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Previously -- and several times -- I have asked Mark the Sane and Sensible to produce examples of the "far superior" tolerance and recognition of personal liberty in Christianity and Judaism so that he might prove his assertion that "Christianity and Judaism are far superior to Islam as far as tolerance and recognizing personal liberty," and my request has been met with yet more irrelevant nonsense.
Why Mark the Sane and Sensible continues to comment on Blogcritics is a mystery to me since he seems to have such a low opinion of the community here:
Mark the Sane and Sensible does not wish to engage in any sort of meaningful dialog here. He is just looking for a forum in which to post his propaganda.
And with that and the balance of Mark the Sane and Sensible's comment #146, I rest my case.
161 - Anthony Grande
"Christianity and Judaism are far superior to Islam as far as tolerance and recognizing personal liberty,"
Margaret, You need proof of this??? They make their women cover their faces, deny voting rights and aren't allowed to drive.
162 - Margaret Romao Toigo
nugget, I have only a passing knowledge of Ayn Rand, which is something I should rectify seeing as how I have been compared to her on several occasions.
163 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
Ms. Toigo:
With your pretty little head still submerged in the sand, you offer another hilariously ironic statement:
"He is just looking for a forum in which to post his propaganda."
And how is YOUR propaganda any different? Do tell.
And you have just as much of a dialog problem, especially with people who tell you they don't buy into your egalitarian nonsense and that you have a very idealistic and naive view of the world.
164 - nugget
margaret, I wasn't taking a shot. She's a great read. You should check her out.
165 - Doug Hannan
oh yeah - condemn Robertson...yes or no?
Well?
166 - Anthony Grande
HELL NO!!! I WILL CONDEMN ANYONE WHO CONDEMNS PATTERSON
HE IS A HERO, IF HE WAS MUSLIM YOU LIBS WOULD SAY HE WAS A HERO ALSO
167 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Anthony Grande wrote, "They make their women cover their faces, deny voting rights and aren't allowed to drive."
That is indeed how it is in some Muslim countries -- like Saudi Arabia, for instance -- and it is an excellent example of the intolerance and oppression of Islam.
However, when someone submits a comparative assertion (in this case, "Christianity and Judaism are far superior to Islam as far as tolerance and recognizing personal liberty.") he or she must present both sides in order to make his or her argument a credible one.
I have acknowledged Mark the Sane and Sensible's successful demonstration of the intolerance and oppression of Islam , but he has, thus far, failed to provide examples of the "far superior" tolerance and recognition of personal liberty in Christianity and Judaism.
Have we been exposed to so much negative political campaigning that we have been conditioned to simply accept a negative on one side as a positive for the other side?
Think about it. If one candidate running for public office is suspected of some sort of malfeasance, does that mean that his opponent is honest?
If the brand A detergent does not get stains out, does that mean that the brand B detergent will?
Call me a pedant, but I simply cannot accept a one-sided comparative analysis as grounds for concession.
168 - RogerMDillion
tell me what Patterson stands for before I decide on whether or not to condemn him.
169 - nugget
she raises a viable point mark. Are you stalling?
170 - Margaret Romao Toigo
nugget, I was not in the least bit offended by your earlier remark. I have enough knowledge of Ayn Rand to understand that you weren't taking a shot.
It's just that you're not the first person to have said that I sound like her.
I definitely must check her out someday.
171 - Margaret Romao Toigo
Mark the Sane and Sensible, I am practically handing you a victory here (c'mon, how hard is it to demonstrate the "far superior" tolerance and recognition of personal liberty in Christianity and Judaism?), if you do not wish to take advantage, that is your business. My worldview is not relevant to that.
172 - nugget
I didn't think you were offended but wasn't sure enough not to respond that way. BTW I find your discourse with mark to be entertaining and thought provoking. I tend to agree with mark on his ideals about absolutism, Sun Tsu, and a few other things, but I do think he warrants you a more thorough explanation for his liberal prodding. I only include that statement because I distrust any individual who associates themselves too strongly on either side of the political spectrum. Both sides are conspiring for power. Additionally, I'm pretty sure the "good" side never picks the fight if you follow me. I'm not a moral relativist either.
173 - Doug Hannan
HELL NO!!! I WILL CONDEMN ANYONE WHO CONDEMNS PATTERSON
HE IS A HERO
Who the hell is Patterson?
Hey Mark. Yes or no? Still waiting. Lack the courage of our convictions do we? No surprise there.
174 - Anthony Grande
Comment #166
I meant to say Robertson. I don't know why but I keep cally him Patterson.
Robertson is a Hero
175 - Anthony Grande
"he has, thus far, failed to provide examples of the "far superior" tolerance and recognition of personal liberty in Christianity and Judaism."
Margaret, can you name any violations of tolerance and recognition of personal liberty in Christianity and Judaism.
You can't can you?