I'm amazed that this story hasn't gained any real national attention, and I only found out about it through my wife, who's a real news hound.
The "Reverend" Fred Phelps, the "pastor" who took great joy in the murder of Matthew Shepard five years ago in Casper, Wyoming (he shouted "God Hates Fags!" during Shepard's funeral), now plans to erect a monument in Casper to commemorate the murder.
The monument is described in an L.A. Times-authored story thusly:
"The 73-year-old Topeka, Kan., pastor has designed a granite monument engraved with Shepard's face followed by these words chiseled in the stone: Matthew Shepard Entered Hell October 12, 1998, at Age 21 In Defiance of God's Warning: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination." Leviticus 18:22."
This fine "Christian" man plans to erect the monument in a public park in Casper. And - here's the really good part - he's legally entitled to do so.
How could it be that the city would have to accept this monument in a public park? Simple. Back in 1965 the city allowed a Ten Commandments monument to be set up in the park, and a 2002 federal court ruling says communities displaying such religious monuments must allow other messages or symbols to be displayed as well.
And so Phelps' monument has a right to be there.
To their credit, Casper city officials are fighting this. Mayor Barbara Peryam was quoted in the Times piece as saying "I refuse to let Casper be defined by hate."
But the city faces a choice - remove the Ten Commandments or allow Phelps' monument.
I have two questions I'd like to hear a "Christian" perspective on here:
1) Does anybody want to step up and support Phelps on this? Is he some "radical Christian extremist" or is he correct in his assertion that Shepard is burning in Hell and justified in erecting a monument to remind people of that?
2) Assuming the federal court ruling holds up, should the city take down the Ten Commandments in order to keep Phelps' monument out of the park? Or is the display of the Ten Commandments so important - remember the vigil in Alabama - that the city should allow Phelps to put up his monument?
More difficult thoughts available everyday at Cap'n Ken's Homespun Wisdom
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Phillip Winn
We've been discussing this on a Christian theology group blog in which I also participate, and we have decided that it is clear that Fred Phelps is not a Christian, based on all available evidence. His behavior is disgusting and shameful.
We've also added him to a running list of "People Who Are Always Wrong," along with Pat Robertson.
To actually answer your two questions:
1) No, I won't support Phelps. I don't think he is even a Christian. Whether or not Shepard is with God today has nothing to do with what Phelps is fixated on, and everything to do with Shepard's response to Christ.
2) I thought that the brouhaha in Alabama was overwrought. Based on the law as described, I'd rather have the ten commandments taken down than put up that disgusting statue. Alternatively, I'm all in favor of looking the other as the display is vandalized. With dynamite.
2 - frost@work
Mr. Phelps is a mar on the face of Christianity.
3 - Phillip Winn
I think that he mars the face of humanity, never mind the religious group to which he pretends to belong!
4 - Eric Olsen
Preaching hatred is always wrong. What kind of twisted soul would take such perverse pleasure from the suffering of another? Whatever technical claims this individual has to being a "Christian," the blackness of his soul speaks much more loudly.
5 - Phillip Winn
Forget "technical claims," the Bible is quite clear. 1 John 4:8, for example, says, "Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love." That's just one example of money that demonstrate that falseness of Phelps' claim to be a follower of Christ.
6 - Michael Croft
Actually, Phillip, I think the bible is quite famously clear (John 3:16) that belief is the criteria for eternal life. Not "whosoever believes and refrains from acting in a manner that is unchristian," just "whosoever believes."
We can doubt the sincerity of his belief and we can certainly believe that his actions are unacceptable and based on a seriously flawed interpretation of scripture, but I'm not convinced it's reasonable to exclude him because I don't think it's reasonable to doubt that he believes in Christ.
Fred Phelps believes that Matthew Shepard died and went to hell, based on Shepard's actions. If you say that Phelps is not a Christian and that this is clear because of his actions, then you are implying that Phelps will die and go to hell, based on his actions. I think that if you're going to claim that Phelps is not a Christian, then you need to make it clear how this statement is not materially the same as the one he's making about Shepard.
While I understand the impulse to say "that idiot isn't one of us" or "that idiot isn't *really* one of us," what I'd really like to see is a Christian response that says "yes, he is a Christian, yes we repudiate the things he says. We are having an internal dialog to discuss how we can best deal with these actions so erroneously taken in the name of our religion."
7 - Taloran
Well said, Michael Croft! I applaud your levelheadedness.
Not being a Christian, it's easy for me to say "Sheesh, this kook Phelps certainly isn't acting the way I understand Christians are supposed to act" or "These bloody zealot nutjobs should just shut the hell up." But I will refrain from making any claims about his belief or lack thereof, not having insight into the matter except as an outsider looking in.
8 - Cap'n Ken
.. and Phelps (and his followers) sure does seem to believe what he preaches, and he backs everything up with Biblical passages.
So what makes somebody a "Christian", anyway? If he believes all the stuff the Bible says about Jesus, isn't that what qualifies you as a member of this faith?
It seems to me he's just interpreting Biblical passages (which he quotes often) to mean God Hates Fags and your mission as a Christian should be to preach against homosexuality, adultery, etc. Doesn't that make him as much of a "Christian" as anybody else who believes in Jesus and interprets Biblical passages to mean you should hold certain beliefs and conduct your life in a certain way?
9 - Eric Olsen
Um, except for the hatred part, which Phillip lists as contrary to the ultimate teaching, the trump card as it were. I think there is a discomfiting element of truth to what Michael says, but there is also a line of orthodoxy outside of which a body of believers is allowed to say "now you don't belong."
Mainstream Christians seem much more inclined to do this (with violent anti-abortion activists, racial identity types, overt "haters" in general) than do their Muslim counterparts, and the world is suffering for this as we speak.
10 - Cap'n Ken
So he's a "Christian", just not a "Christian" most other "Christians" would endorse?
11 - Taloran
Yep, but there are an equal number of Muslim whack jobs out there as there are Christian whack jobs, which is what got us into this global pickle.
"If you smile at me, you know I will understand, 'cause that is something everybody everywhere does in the same language."
Firing a gun at me, or strapping me to a cross and lighting it on fire, is pretty universally understandable as well.
12 - Tim Hall
Phelps is a sick, twisted individual who's spirit died and went to hell years ago, even though his physical body is still walking around. His 'church' is made up entirely of family members, who he rules with brutal violence.
Phelps really is, in intent if not in deeds, in the same league as Hitler, Stalin and Osama.
13 - Cap'n Ken
Another question - given the attention the Shepard case generated 5 years, ago, why no national media attention on Phelps' monument plan so far?
14 - Taloran
We Coloradoans have the honor of living in a place known as "The Hate State." James Dobson and Focus on the Family, along with other intolerant self-proclaimed Christian groups, practically own the city of Colorado Springs, and preach their message of God-inspired hatred throughout our state. They may well be successfully keeping this development out of the press (this is conjecture, not fact).
Nothing above is meant to insult Christians in general, or to imply that God is actually sending divine inspiration to these hate-mongers.
15 - Michael Croft
It's not unheard of, Cap'n.
Lyndon LaRouche is a "Democrat", just not a "Democrat" most other "Democrats" would endorse.
Eric,
There are a wide variety of Christian theologies, some of which would agree that by acting on hateful impulses, Phelps was showing himself to be non-Christion. Others might consider him a sinner but still a member of the faith and some would agree with his belief but not his methods. Some few support him.
I think there are good and bad ramifications of the kind of exclusion you're mentioning. While it's good if a community can say "we repudiate this action", it's not so good if a blind eye is turned to underlying problems or institutional rot.
At some point, responsibility should be taken. Consider the example of the pedophilia scandals in the Catholic Church. It is important to disavow the actions of the individuals who engaged in this behavior. It is also important to realize the extent of the problem and to investigate and fix root causes.
16 - Cap'n Ken
OK, so Taloran says James Dobson and Focus on Family are hate-filled, intolerant and, if I'm reading his comments correctly, should be disavowed by more reasonable Christians as well.
I don't know much about what Dobson believes (his website seems to be more about selling his books and tapes than spelling out doctrine), but is he also not a real "Christian?"
How about Pat Robertson? Jerry Falwell? I'm not sure where the line is drawn on what beliefs put forth by "Christian" leaders the mainstream "Christians" embrace and who they don't
17 - frost@work
Ok, I understand everyone's comments and to an extent I agree with you all. I've been a Christian since 1994, and graduated from Bible College a couple of years ago.
From my viewpoint Phelps does not protray what the Bible specifies as proof (or 'fruit of the spirit') that is the marker of a true Christian. He ignores specific Biblical mandates that demand that Christians have compassion, mercy, love and grace - not just in word, but in deed.
I would put him in the same catagory as Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, and the radical word-faith movement preachers. Constantly in a state of unrepentantance -- bullheaded dogma mongers.
Aside from the fact that this guy is a total ass, what hurts me the most is that people get the general idea that all Christians act like this. That it is the standard rather than the exception.
18 - ClubhouseCancer
In Monday's NYTimes, there was an encouraging article about how Europeans are abandoning religion and belief. For me, the crux, and my favorite sentence, was this:
"There are many suggested reasons for Europe's drift, which happened gradually, over decades, as the continent grew wealthier and BETTER EDUCATED." (caps mine)
This link between education and belief in superstitions is just presupposed, indicating the obvious, elephant-in-the-room fact that smart people are less likely to believe in a god.
Survey top physicists, surgeons, or any other discipline where intelligence is a prerequisite, and you'll find few who go to church or believe in a god. Certainly nothing close to the two-thirds of Americans who call themselves religious.
The sooner we rid humanity of stupid, contradictory superstitions that inevitably lead to killing, war and hatred, the better. Without the veil of religion, perhaps we could see this fuck Phelps for what he is: a fount of hatred. Ditto the pedophile priests, the muslim extremist baby-killers, the abortion-doc murderers, the right wing sexists and homophobes, and all the other humanity-hating folks around the world who use their gods to justify all kinds of horrible crap.
May Hera and Neptune smite them all.
19 - frost@work
Clubhouse Cancer: I wasn't going to respond, but your last paragraph was intended as a dig.
Don't blame 'religion' for Phelps, blame him.
I also hate to be the first one to break this to you, but priests aren't the only pedophiles in the world, muslims aren't the only people who kill babies, not all Pro-LIFE (emphasis mine) people kill doctors (not even a fraction of a percent), and you can't lump all Christians are in the right wing, nor all all Christians sexist or homophobes.
You said "all the other humanity-hating folks around the world who use their gods to justify all kinds of horrible crap."
You sir, have become what you hate. You want to eraticate the world of Christianty, but blame the minority for the problems of a VERY small minority. Yes, you made me mad with your comments, but I believe it is a rightous anger. Anger about ignorance and intolerance.
20 - Taloran
I said nothing about Christians disavowing Dobson. I do, however, hear his message of intolerance on the radio, and I witnessed the "no-rights-for-gays" amendment to the State Constitution his group proposed several years ago. A watered down version of that amendment passed, but was overturned before it could be enforced. Because I am familiar with the message he presents to the public, I can state without fear of having to retract my words later that he preaches a message of intolerance for difference.
What I did say in comment 14 was that I theorize that it might be due to the predominance of preachers of hate in Colorado that the national news media is not picking up on this spew coming out of Phelps.
I also intimated, and will say straight out now, that I personally do not believe in the message of Dobson and his followers.
But I did not claim to know what any Christian should or should not do, and did not suggest any correct path for a Christian to follow.
21 - ClubhouseCancer
Anger is no substitute for logic. Get angry at the millions of people killed in the name of religion over human history, not me. I didn't, of course, say that ALL christians are bad, or all muslims or whatever you're accusing me of. I pointed out which ones I find fault with specifically.
But thanks for getting personal.
I'm not sure how my statements make me the thing that I hate, especially since I didn't mention hating anybody, and in fact I don't.
I am neither ignorant nor intolerant. I wish others would be more tolerant toward those of us who believe in the ancient Greek and Roman gods. But of course THOSE beliefs are silly, right?
I'm also not a sir.
22 - Taloran
In response to 19 and 18 -
frost@work writes - "priests aren't the only pedophiles in the world, muslims aren't the only people who kill babies, not all Pro-life people kill doctors and you can't lump all Christians into the right wing, nor are all Christians sexist or homophobes."
Absolutely true. However, the group of pedophiles in most obvious view of the American public are Catholic priests. The most evident group of babykillers are muslim extremists. The Americans most obviously espousing a message of intolerance toward homosexuals are Christian preachers. It is therefore logical, if not precisely correct, for ClubhouseCancer to perceive that the abolition of religion would solve a great many of the world's problems.
I disagree with ClubhouseCancer as well - I think he chose his words hastily when he said "the sooner we rid humanity of stupid, contradictory superstitions," and it might have been better phrased as "the sooner humanity forgets its stupid, contradictory superstitions." But I may be wrong, and he may have stated exactly what he meant.
My guess, however, is that he was caught up in a passionate fervor as he composed at the keyboard.
23 - ClubhouseCancer
Tal, thanks for the edit. Yours is better.
24 - Taloran
I apologize to ClubhouseCancer for the use of masculine pronouns in the previous comment. I stand corrected.
25 - frost@work
clubhouse: sorry about the sir thing, I meant no disrespect.
It just seemed like you were generalizing quite a bit in you comments about ridding the world of Christianity for it being a group of intollerant simpletons (that's what I got from it anyway).
I don't think that you believing in the Greek or Roman Gods is stupid.
I'm sorry if you felt I was getting too personal with you - I felt like Christianity in general was being not only attacked and dismissed, but belittled because of the actions of a few radical assholes.