I am a victim in all this. I am VERY angry, and my tiny feelings are hurt. Yes, yes they are. Everybody feel sorry for me, or you're all bigots and I'll have to throw a tantrum.
I know it's not very sensitive to mock someone who is obviously psychologically disturbed. However, if you insist on publicly calling me a "stupid bigot" and even a "white supremicist" who would actually support the institution of black slavery in modern America- well, really, you're asking to be made sport with, aren't you?…
Article comments
176 - Joe
MD, your eloquent, reasoned, and heartfelt apology is accepted.
177 - Natalie Davis
MD, you are wrong. I never said or implied 'disagree with me and you are not credible.' There are many people with whom I disagree whom I find credible.
Oh -- in fairness, I must add that indeed Mac-a-ro-nies covers many more issues than "race." And even if "race" articles were her focus, what's wrong with that?
Al, if you think I would love Brian because he's a liberal, you're more twisted than I ever imagined.
Back to MD (pardon me, it has been a horrible day, so my mind isn't flowing sequentially): Here is how I see the situation: You made charges against Joe, said there was evidence, then refused to tell me where I could find it. What am I supposed to think after that?
You have noted that the Joe you have seen in action at other places could be another Joe, so I am prepared to drop the whole thing. I just got back from spending the day at the hospital with my father. He is dying, it turns out. Had a massive stroke early this morning, and irreparable damage was done. He is now on a respirator and unconscious, and to my way of thinking, there are much more important concerns than this debate. I am at home now to post my Labor Day blog stuff, then it's back to the ICU. If anyone who considers me worthy would offer up a few prayers, it would be most appreciated.
178 - Eric Olsen
Consider it done - I hope things go as well as possible, very sorry to hear the bad news. Best wishes to you and your family.
179 - Mac Diva
Fine with, me Nat. I may have been thinking of another Joe. I don't claim to be perfect.
I lost my Dad when I was 16 and still find myself 'thinking at him' sometimes. Remember that as long we recall people they live on in a way.
180 - Natalie Davis
MD: "I don't claim to be perfect."
Ditto, that's for sure.
Thanks to you and Eric. You're right about memories. That new Luther Vandross song sure is timely. My brother reminds me that Dad is a fighter by nature and could prove the doctors wrong. God, I hope so. As of now, though, no change.
181 - Joe
While I find it very gracious that the accusations of race-baiting infused cyberstalking have have been downgraded now to just being a liar, I do feel I should set the record straight in that I never claimed that Mac Diva posted exclusively about race. And even if I were to make such a claim, that would probably fall under the realm of opinion, not a statement of fact, which wouldn't be lying but rather stating an opinion. The truth of the matter is I have never offered a critique of her writing due to the fact that I'm generally put off by her name-dropping, self-glorification, and basic mean spiritedness. Granted, thats just my opinion, of course, but I'm more than happy to provide examples upon request.
182 - Al Barger
Well, our group therapy session is going pretty good now. Most of the hating and hysteria have been toned down- except of course for MD, who runs on righteous indignation, needing neither truthfulness nor civility holding her back.
MD- Gesture of goodwill: I'll go right over to your couple of current threads and see if I can add a comment, to help keep your threads going a bit. By the way, if Eric only knew what exactly?
The rest of the crew though mostly seems to be talking calmly about our various differences, as are perhaps inevitable to arise in such a large and designedly diverse group. Outstanding.
Still no love for Al, though.
I don't feel like Satan
But I am to them
183 - Cobb
fascinating. archived.
184 - Eric Olsen
Cobb, happy to have your input here, but it strikes me as a bit condescending - you claim elsewhere it isn't a "white people couldn't understand" thing, but it sure sounds like it to me.
185 - Phillip Winn
Brian - like you, I get upset with myself when certain people draw me into a discussion I should know better to join. For you, that person is usually Al. For me, that person is you. :)
Al does seem to get much more personally involved in conversations here than you do, but you asked for a specific example of you demonstrating ad hominem behavior, and I feel compelled to remind you of how many times you've responded to either opinions or factual statements, not with a direct rebuttal or evidence, but with a "Let me get this straight, you believe X?" where X is usually a list of items from the current and several previous posts.
There was one thread in particular where you made specific accusations against a public political figure and then refused to back them up, saying nobody would take the contrary position so there was no point. I took the contrary position repeatedly, and you acted as if I didn't even exist, stating that you believed I was being facetious. I assured you that I was not, and you ignored me again. It was after that post that I generally quit commenting on your posts, since it seemed clear you would brook no interference with your axe-grinding.
People have different stylistic quirks, and people get upset when they see their pet peeve displayed. Al manages to make factual disagreement sounds like personal attacks, and you manage to make personal attacks and mockery sound like factual lists. Would I prefer to have one over the other? Sure I would. I'd prefer to have a respectful debate of the issue over both.
For that, it seems, I could perhaps rely on Natalie and maybe a couple of others, but most people let the relative anonymity of electronic communication suppress the common civility they might have if dealing with people face-to-face. Between childish tantrums and name-calling and smug superiority, I can understand why people are generally disgusted with the tone of conversations on the political threads here.
I reject any thought of editing or editorial moderation, so all I can do is hope that people start to treat each other with respect. That means, among other things, answering honest questions honestly. It means dealing with factual information without digging into the motives and background of the person presenting it. It means treating everybody here as if you were going to have to eat dinner with them this weekend. It means respect.
There are plenty of people on this very thread who have acted in ways to completely lose my respect, and yet I choose to start over.
Brian, you've come close, but I chose to plug your pseudo-campaign for governor anyway because I think you're an honest man. Honestly wrong on many thing, but who isn't?
Al, you annoy me like I can't possibly explain, even though I sometimes agree with you. I hope you can take this the way I mean it, as someone who wants you to be more effective: People are using your tendency to use personal pronouns as a way to dismiss your factual arguments. To be an effective communicator, you would do well to temper your posts here by sticking to the facts and letting others get personal. Stay above the fray as much as you can.
I've gotten frustrated here in the past myself, for which I apologize. During those times, I've probably said things I shouldn't have, forgetting that in an asynchronous conversation such as this one, there is no such thing as "the heat of the moment" and I can always walk away and come back later. I am truly sorry if anybody has been personally offended by anything I've said, and I will truly try to avoid frustrated personal comments in the future.
Thanks for reading. :)
186 - andy
Natalie: "my comfort zone stops at 70 degrees F"
I heard that. Hot is for the birds if you ask me.
187 - Eric Olsen
Me, I love the (dry) heat. I think it's my sub-Saharan African origins.
188 - Cobb
in a way, eric, it is a white poeple can't understand thing, but it might be more properly described as a 'people who want to act white have a vested interest in not understanding'. in other words, it's not worth it to them.
so yes i am condescending to those who won't put forth the effort to bridge the gap. it's not as if blacks & whites never worked together to beat down prejudice before. either you have and cultivate the skill or you don't give a damn.
then again, i have a vested interest as someone who has patiently written on the subject vis a vis cyberspace communications on racial subjects for a decade *in* cyberspace.
189 - Eric Olsen
"Acting white"? What exactly does that mean, if I may ask? Is this the opposite of "acting black"? Are talking Colin Powell vs Eminem here, or what? I have "bridged the gap" in my own life as far back as I can remember, so i know you aren't talking about me.
190 - Eric Olsen
Also, I unreservedly retain the right to tell anyone he or she is full of shit whether they are white, black, brown, yellow, or Michael Jackson. That is in part what this debate was about. Saying that a particular incident may or may not have been about race in no way calls into question the fact that many issues ARE still about race.
Do you really want people to say, "Well I'm not of that race so there's no way I can understand it, so I'll just go along with whatever you say, boss"? That strikes me as an empty victory.
191 - Al Barger
Cobb, you're a bit late getting into this ongoing foodfight, so let me recap what I understand the situation to be: I had this fairly mild "Colorless Friends" post about how I found the Friends show bland, and also that I thought it was silly for black folk to get so pissy as some seem to over the lack of any black Friend.
Soon, Miss Diva was hysterical and hostile, having some kind of hysterical spazz attack in my comments section pretty much out of the blue. She's quitting us, and she's going to try to fuck up our primary business relationship. She's calling me, among the more charming things, a white supremicist and a stupid bigot.
I responded to that with this original "Happy Hate Crimes :)" post, which is FAR milder in tone than the things she's saying. Note that I responded to defend the specific posts that she cited as evidence of my wickedness.
Also, I didn't just make up slanderous lies about her out of the blue. I would argue that this post is fairly gentle good humor in response to pretty strong hostile provocation.
In short, the Al/Diva conversation model goes like this:
Al: Hello Mac Diva, nice day out, isn't it?
Mac Diva: WHAT KIND OF STUPID WHITE SUPREMICIST QUESTION IS THAT? SURE, EVERY DAY IS A GREAT DAY FOR YOU EVIL NEO-CONFEDERATE SLAVERS.
Cobb, it seems that somehow you look at it and consider ME to be the goat. How figure?
192 - BB
People … I’m not familiar with all of the details of this matter, but frankly I am weary of those who would let their passions overcome their good common sense. To those who would accuse others of hate crimes or spew out vitriol such as fascist, commie, neo-Confederate, a__hole or whatever, they would be best advised to remember there are laws governing this â€" i.e. the law of defamation, libel and slander. In fact we should all remember this is a public forum â€" not a private telephone conversation, and certain decorum is expected especially if we wish to retain that shirt on our back. Let’s remember this before letting our passions get the better of us and be respectful of each other’s views (no matter how ridiculous their opinion may be ;-)
193 - Mac Diva
I must take a exception to including 'neo-Confederate' in such a list. It is a viable (and surprisingly influential) political position. The people in it are PROUD of their Confederate sympathies. I can only guess the person who made this comment is not familiar with the movement or he or she would realize referring to it by its self-given name is not a slur.
194 - TDavid
Wow, the dead has risen in this bump. Memories!
195 - BB
Huh??? My dear Mac Diva. There is no exception to take! I merely reiterated your own words. If you don't like it then just don't say it. Obviously you missed the point and I don't have time to explain it to you. Perhaps you should look to yourself before pointing that finger. Better still, perhaps you should rest on the fifth before you incriminate yourself any further.
196 - Al Barger
We've collectively calmed down a bit from the period of the original post, so perhaps we could review a bit. Perhaps participants might wish to revise and/or extend their remarks.
Lots of words got thrown around sometimes haphazardly. Perhaps even I might be accused of injudicious language- though I always at least intend to be careful in my choice of words.
One of the loosely flung terms in this cross-posts discussion has been "neo-Confederate." Mac Diva favors this word, using it repeatedly to describe ME. This is not a term or idea in common usage in my vocabulary, so I hardly know what it means. I'm just sure it's nothing she would consider good.
To the end of positively advancing our discussion, perhaps Ms. Diva could offer a succint definition of what exactly this term actually means. What exactly does this term specifically say about me when I am so labeled, other than that I am BAD?
197 - BB
Time to stir up the pot again, eh? You really are a bad boy. Naughty, naughty ;-)
Actually I too am ignorant of this term "neo-Confederate" and since I was publicly disparaged for regurgitating Mac Diva's own words I would appreciate enlightening as to its meaning. As she so eloquently pointed out, I am obviously "not familiar with the movement". Al, I too concur with your deduction that it wasn't used in a, shall we say, complimentary sense.
198 - Eric Olsen
Mac Diva was kind enough to forward this to me on neo-Confederates from Salon. It's quite helpful.
199 - RJ Elliott
So, I'm the first person posting here in 6 months. So sue me! :-]
200 - Al Barger
Play nice, RJ. Remember that we have our new House Rules now, so no poking people in the eyes here, or dipping Diva's hair in the ink well.
201 - Sandra Smallson
Ahh..I'm tired of reading and can't be bothered to continue. I think I know the gist of this thread.
My opinions..I will miss Macdiva's posts and I hope she reconsiders. To really leave makes no point at all. Have you not heard that survival is the best answer to your enemies? Your mere existense rubs flys in their face so you should hang on, macdiva.
I mean, this post is clear example. It's like gloating. There is no reason or purpose to this post. It has nothing to accomplish. I find that there's not much that Al knows about, judging from his opinions. Al's opinions? Not a varied bunch and no flexibility..leads one to conclude all sorts about the boy. He is under no misconceptions as to what I think of him.
This post was unnecessary and MacDiva , you should reconsider and keep on writing. Besides, you must be one of the few that I haven't gone into battle with. Or have I? What will it take to keep you around? Lil' fight with Sandie;)? Okay..Say something bad about the Catholic church..come on..I dare ya:)
202 - Sandra Smallson
delete rubs..meant "flies in their face or maybe rubs it in their face/s..I forget:)
203 - Al Barger
Sandra- Diva's still here. This post and Diva's brief resignation were from August 2003, and she obviously didn't stay gone, not even for a whole day if memory serves.
No, she wouldn't get gone that easy. It'd be like Richard Dreyfuss trying to get rid of Bob Wiley in What About Bob?- except that Bob is friendly and lovable.