Where were the Muslim sensibilities to the thousands of innocent human lives snuffed out on 9-11?
Sunday May 1, 2011 was a great day in America and it should have been a great day for freedom-loving, peaceful, compassionate people all over the world. Why was Sunday May 1 such a great day for America and civilization? The world's most wanted was killed. Shot dead! Removed from the land of the living. Sent off to receive his eternal punishment. His body fed to the fishes. Swallowed up in Davy Jones's locker. Osama Bin Laden has left the planet for good. And that is a good thing.…
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— go to most recent comments76 - zingzing
allen, have you ever even tried to put on another's person's shoes?
why are you angry at muslims? let's let your own words answer for you: "These BARbARIANS invaded our country and killed over 3000 innocent people who were not at war with them in any way shape or form."
yes, they did. and that's why you're angry. right? and that's why you think killing them that would kill us is right, right?
now what may have caused them to do this? was it random? no... to them, we "BARbARIANS invaded their country and killed way more than 3000 innocent people who were not at war with them in any way shape or form."
you are the barbarian to match their barbarian. if you're any better, you'd stop being such a barbarian. but if you aren't any better, at least you're just as bad as they are, and you deserve whatever you think they deserve.
think about it, allen. you ARE what you hate. i know that realizing it will be hard, and you'll have to rethink a lot of things, but you had better stop wasting your life hating, or it's all you'll ever do. think about those "waging jihad" on the other side. do you want to be like them? what must their lives be like? it's degenerate and evil. your mind is already there. don't let your entire existence be dominated by it. back away and look at yourself.
77 - zingzing
i'll use the word "country" loosely in that third paragraph. just to be safe.
78 - Jordan Richardson
YEAH that is why George Bush and the American people sent our BRAVE men and women of the military to kick these Islamic terrorists asses.
Bahahahahahaha.
Oh, you were being serious?
But you would know this if you actually read the bible and had a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Nothing like a little condescending crap with your evangelism, Mr. Scott. Such a shame.
Name for me THREE CURRENT CHRISTIAN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS active in the world today
First, let's define terrorism:
I'm going to go with this one from the George C. Marshall Center for European Security Studies: "Terrorism is defined as political violence in an asymmetrical conflict that is designed to induce terror and psychic fear (sometimes indiscriminate) through the violent victimization and destruction of noncombatant targets (sometimes iconic symbols)."
If you object to that definition, perhaps we can move from another framework.
Now, Mr. Scott, I hope you're not planning to do any tap-dancing to suggest that the following groups aren't "real Christians." The same game can be played with respect to the four "Muslim terror groups" you noted, as many mainstream practitioners of Islam do indeed distance themselves from, say, the Muslim Brotherhood.
In terms of Christian terrorist groups active in the world today, I'll go with:
Army of God
Hutaree
Lord's Resistance Army (it may be on the border, as it blends mysticism with its Christian apocalyptic theory)
Orange Volunteers
Phineas Priesthood
That doesn't count the number of individual Christians doing violence in the name of their religion, of course, but they probably don't count because your intent here isn't fair discussion at all. Your intent is to narrowly define the terms so that your particular belief system looks best.
Good luck with that.
79 - Jordan Richardson
You my friend are just as complicit as the terrorist because ou are aiding and abetting the enemy.
This is just silly, dude. You're seriously like a four-year-old trying to fight someone. Nothing but swinging limbs, anger and no sense of direction.
80 - Jordan Richardson
now what may have caused them to do this?
THEY HATE OUR FREEDOMS!! RAWRRRRRRR, ETC.!
81 - Allen Scott
now what may have caused them to do this?
I AM SURE YOU WILL TELL ME IF I DO NOT KNOW so just for kicks how about telling me why...
was it random? no...
Actually on this we agree it certainly was not random.. they plan to convert the world to ISLAM.. so to them jihad is justified they do not need a reason other than anyone who is not ISLAM is an infidel.
to them, we "BARbARIANS ...again we agree they do think of us as BARBARIANS actually anyone who is not a convert to ISLAM is a barbarian... that includes you if you are not a Muslim.. AND since they hate me I am not interested in making friends with them. Leave me alone I will leave them alone. ATTACK my friends and family.. gloves come off.
invaded their country
REALLY WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? Before or after 9-11 care to enlighten the rest of us?
and killed way more than 3000 innocent people who were not at war with them in any way shape or form."
NEWS FLASH the only place where MUSLIMS can live safely and free from fear of being tortured or killed is in free societies like ISRAEL and the US. Muslims have killed more MUSLIMS than any other people group have. CUT THE CLAP TRAP Muslim appeasement it is lost on those who live in realville.
you are the barbarian to match their barbarian. No I am a law-abiding citizen.. I seek justice for those who have been violated by lawbreakers and those who live lawlessly.. crimes have been committed.. justice is being served... Any law-abiding citizen should rejoice in that fact but no you and these madmen sound like the quacks who justify the rapist by blaming the victim. THEY DID IT... THEY violated common decency.. which is a stretch for these folks since they are not decent people who blow up innocents...
if you're any better, you'd stop being such a barbarian. OH NOW SEEKING JUSTICE is barbaric.. yeah I guess it is in your twisted world...
but if you aren't any better, at least you're just as bad as they are, and you deserve whatever you think they deserve.... I have never blown up a ship, taken anyone captive and held them for ransom.. chopped off anyones head.. killed my daughters because they disgraced me.. flew planes into sky scrapers and rejoiced as the people inside burned to death or leaped to their demise... nor have I ordered a jihad against any person, place, or thing.. I am not even asking them to convert to Christianity even though life would be better for them if they did except of course if they convert will still living in a Muslim land cause then they will die... I do not move into their countries and demand that they follow my rules and laws.. I do not threaten to blow up buildings and shoot school buses loaded with innocent children just because I think I should be living where they are living.. NO MY DELUDED friend I am nothing like these.
what must their lives be like? it's degenerate and evil. AGAIN we agree their lives are degenerate and evil. SO the only cure for degenerates and evil people is for them to quit doing evil and start to do good. Is that too much to ask??? Apparently so since they never quit they have done what they are doing for over 14 centuries.. Some habits are just too hard to break...
82 - Jordan Richardson
The sword is a metaphor for dividing people into those who accept and those who reject Jesus' teaching.
But nothing in the Qu'ran is metaphorical, right? I mean, everything in it is to be taken exactly as a literal concept. Better still, we, who don't speak Arabic, can interpret the holy book better than the Muslims can!
You would never allow someone to be so arrogant or presumptuous with regard to the Bible, would you?
So how can you presume to know what Islam is all about? Because there are terrorist groups, suicide bombers and weird, backward laws?
There are divisions in Islam just like there are divisions in Christianity or Judaism. There are Muslims who are conservative and Muslims who are liberal.
Out of the entire population of Muslims worldwide, some 1.57 billion people or so, only a handful are actually terrorists. Out of the entire population of Christians worldwide, perhaps 2.14 if we use 2005 numbers, only a handful are actually terrorists. The same basic premise applies to many other systems of belief and/or political persuasions. Many people on the far-right or the far-left are good, decent people even. Only a handful actually become violent and harm or kill others in the name of their beliefs or persuasions.
The problem is with humanity. That's the only common denominator. People have tried throughout history to solve the nature of people, tried to narrow it down to one thing. We want easy solutions as a species, we want someone to blame, we want to target a "type" of person so that we can be "safer." Throughout human history we've done this, but how well has it worked? Since when has the persecution of one people group added up to a positive outcome in terms of furthering the species?
And everyone always thinks someone else is the problem. Religious people think atheists or non-adherents are the problem. Atheists think religious people are the problem. Whites think blacks are the problem. Blacks think whites are the problem. If we could only get rid of ______, we would have peace.
Bullshit. It's not in our nature to have peace. We aren't a peaceful species overall. The common denominator is us.
83 - Jordan Richardson
Mr. Scott, if "they" plan to convert the world to Islam they sure are taking their sweet ass time with it.
More to the point, isn't that the "plan" of Christianity too? Aren't Christians implored by Christ to go and make disciples of ALL nations?
Or that another misunderstood excerpt of the Bible too?
84 - Jordan Richardson
I should also note that no international government considers Fatah to be a terrorist organization, Mr. Scott. That's in reference to your #74.
85 - zingzing
"REALLY WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? Before or after 9-11 care to enlighten the rest of us?"
before. that's their stated reason for attacking us. also, that is part of al qaeda's plan, which we are adhering to. they want to bankrupt our country. you're helping.
"they plan to convert the world to ISLAM."
and christians plan to convert the world to christianity. and it's been a pretty bloody affair so far.
"No I am a law-abiding citizen.. I seek justice for those who have been violated by lawbreakers and those who live lawlessly."
and you spread hatred on the internet. good start. do you wonder what your counterparts on the other side are doing right now? same thing you are.
"OH NOW SEEKING JUSTICE is barbaric..."
eye for an eye, eh? how do you think you are rising above them? is their form of justice yours? do you want blood? how do you think you are any better than they are, or how you don't deserve anything they hand out? you are the reason they're so angry. calm the fuck down. they hit you ten years ago. you have pummeled them since. just cut it out.
"NO MY DELUDED friend I am nothing like these."
ok, so you want to live in peace? how do you start that? do you a) slaughter them, or b) act like a human being? you ARE JUST LIKE THEM. you just don't realize it.
"Is that too much to ask???"
no. look at your own rhetoric. why don't YOU stop? if you don't stop, why do you ask them to stop?
"Apparently so since they never quit they have done what they are doing for over 14 centuries..."
and neither have we, have we?
maybe you could be the first.
just think about it. you don't have to be a part of the problem. you ARE the counterpart to their radical muslim. you ARE what they THINK all americans think like. they think we hate islam and want to destroy it. you obviously do.
YOU fuel them. just stop. you are an enemy to anyone who wants to live in peace. a vast majority of us don't really give a shit about islam. and a vast majority of islam doesn't give a fuck about us. it's just the radical elements, like you and al qaeda that perpetuate this shit.
i wish you would just hurt each other instead of the rest of us.
86 - Allen Scott
Army of God
Hutaree
Lord's Resistance Army (it may be on the border, as it blends mysticism with its Christian apocalyptic theory)
Orange Volunteers
Phineas Priesthood
Finally someone making an attempt.. SO now then can you name for me the RECOGNIZED MAINSTREAM CHRISTIAN denominations or organizations that support any of these groups financially as well as send teachers to their meetings to instruct and encourage their members to continue in their rebellion? GO...
AS far as Phineas priesthood is concerned...
It is not considered an organization because it is not led by a governing body, there are no gatherings, and there is no membership process. Therefore for all I know you are a member of this none existent group.. Should I keep an eye on you? where do you stand on interracial marriage???
Orange Volunteers sounds more like a political order and not a RELIGIOUS one. Just because someone calls them a CHRISTIAN group does not make them one. No where do I read anything that even remotely resembles a creed professing belief in God or Jesus Christ and to be a "CHRISTIAN" one has to believe in at least JESUS CHRIST.. after all CHRIST is in the name.. This one therefore is only a Christian terror group because Wikipedia says so.. not so sure it qualifies since they do not ESPOUSE a PARTICULAR religion that is recognized by Protestants or Catholics.. MEANING ISLAM terror groups are ISLAMIC they are not a NEW RELIGION they recognize ISLAM and identify with the teachings of THE QURAN.. THERE IS NO Difference in what they believe in fact non-terrorist Muslims recognize them as Muslims..
SHOW me one bible believing Christian church or organization that recognizes any of these groups as CHRISTIAN.. GO
Lord's resistance Army again does not espouse JESUS CHRIST but rather an individual who claims to be the spokesperson for God much like Muhammad of the Muslim faith. Therefore these two organizations share similar beginnings. It could be said that they are a MUSLIM terror group but they are not since they do not claim ALLAH told them they simply say GOD SAID and the HOLY SPIRIT said.. ONCE AGAIN to be considered CHRISTIAN they must at least recognize JESUS CHRIST since CHRIST is in the name.. Therefore I would concede they are a religious group but not a Christian group.. WHICH mainstream recognized 501C3 CHRISTIAN church either PROTESTANT of CATHOLIC support this group?? GO...
ARMY of God.. again I fail to see how this qualifies as a CHRISTIAN group anymore than it would qualify as a MUSLIM group or a Communist group or a MARXIST group or a SOCIALIST group.. what teachings of CHRIST do they promote? OH WAIT I am starting to see how this works.... ANYONE can be a CHRISTIAN just by using the name or buying a cross to wear around their neck.. BUT you can only be a MUSLIM if you accept ALLAH Oh now I get it.. SO anyone who is not an atheist or a communist or a socialist oh wait JESUS was a socialist so I guess they are CHRISTIAN TOO.. so then the only non-christians in the world are atheists and muslims.. does that about cover it?? OH and don't forget the Jews and the Hindus and the Buddhists the Shintus so then anyone who is not one of these is CHRISTIAN? RIGHT?
NAW not buying it
But I will commend you on a very nice attempt.. BAD PEOPLE exist everywhere.. and they need to be held accountable for their actions regardless of their political, religious, or social standing or viewpoints. BAD IS BAD.. EVIL IS EVIL..
No mainline recognized Christian church supports or condones any of these so-called Christian groups. THey do not support them financially, or even recognize them as legitimate. They are independent religious orders perhaps but anyone can start a religious order Muhammad did and so did Joseph Smith... and I do not consider Mormons Christians they are Mormons...
87 - Jordan Richardson
So predictable...
BAD PEOPLE exist everywhere.. and they need to be held accountable for their actions regardless of their political, religious, or social standing or viewpoints. BAD IS BAD.. EVIL IS EVIL..
The irony is off the charts, Mr. Scott.
88 - Allen Scott
Jordan I actually agree with your comment 82 for the most part the only place we disagree in principle is the reason the world is so wicked is because of sin the only cure for sin is salvation through JESUS CHRIST... Jesus is the answer to all the world's problems too bad we can not FORCE PEOPLE to accept Jesus by blowing things up....
89 - Jordan Richardson
And Muslims believe that the only "cure" to the ills of our world is submission to the will of Allah.
Very little separates you from the average Muslim, Mr. Scott.
90 - Jordan Richardson
Jesus is the answer to all the world's problems too bad we can not FORCE PEOPLE to accept Jesus by blowing things up....
No, but you can murder people for believing in the wrong sort of Jesus or blow up clinics offering medical procedures you don't agree with or destroy lives because you can't accept certain branches of sexuality.
Sometimes I think there are worse things you can do to a person than kill them.
91 - Allen Scott
i wish you would just hurt each other instead of the rest of us.
actually I agree let the Muslims kill each other leave the rest of us alone.. WHY do they think they need to conquer the whole world why not just live in peace where they are? I really could give a rip but I am sick and tired of having to watch what I say or think or even do for fear of rustling these crazies feathers. WHICH IS THE POINT OF THIS POST not an argument over which religion is better or worse but over acquiesce to bullies. The only thing a bully understands is brute force. What you want me to accept is quiet acceptance and all will be well. NOT SO history proves otherwise.
Disclaimer no Muslims, Jews, Christians, puppies, birds, children, or other living things have been harmed by these posts since they are simply words and opinions unable to cause physical harm. However they certainly can offend some. Deal with it. BUT WATCH out breaking the law is frowned upon in some jusidictions.
92 - Allen Scott
No, but you can murder people for believing in the wrong sort of Jesus
Their own false belief will kill them in the end. I am not sure what you are implying I have not killed anyone.
or blow up clinics offering medical procedures you don't agree with
again I have not blown up any clinic.. nor have I protested in front of any nor do I support anyone who does nor know anyone who has or will...
or destroy lives because you can't accept certain branches of sexuality.
I would think that our own choices in life are what we have to be responsible for. what you do with your life you will answer for and what I do with mine I will answer for. You are not accountable to me and I am not accountable to you for we are all accountable to God. He is the supreme judge.. However I can choose not to associate with certain people because our beliefs are different.. that happens everyday to every body in every sector of society for every reason you can think of. Why should anyone expect special treatment because of a life choice? Live with whatever choice you make.. you can not force people to accept it you just have to deal with it. WHY must others have to believe what you believe. I will voice my opinion but again it is just an opinion and a viewpoint. We are all entitled to our own viewpoints and opinions.
Sometimes I think there are worse things you can do to a person than kill them.
Again we agree.. perhaps we are more agreeable then disagreeable :)
93 - Allen Scott
Very little separates you from the average Muslim, Mr. Scott.
actually Jordan there is a great gulf that separates me from a Muslim and that gulf is set by Jesus Christ and not I. What we do have in common however is we are both sinful creators with vile affections and cabable of such evil. The only hope for any of us is to accept the offer of God's grace and mercy made available to mankind by the sacrifical death of Jesus Christ.
94 - Allen Scott
JOrdan in response to comment number #82 you can tell a tree by it's fruits.. an evil tree can not produce good fruit and a good tree can not produce evil fruit. Nor can sweet water be drawm from a bitter well. There is a long list of imperical evidence which supports that something rotten grows in Islam...
95 - Jordan Richardson
I am not sure what you are implying I have not killed anyone.
I'm not implying anything; I'm stating a fact. As to the wrong-headed nature of the beliefs of extremists and it being borne out in the afterlife, I'm not convinced there's an adequate way to prove that. What we can do is prove that their actions are wrong in this life, as they clearly are. And in this case, there's no dithering between religions. The actions of those sorts of extremists are wrong.
perhaps we are more agreeable then disagreeable :)
Without a doubt, Allen. Without a doubt.
96 - Clavos
You religious believers are effed in the head. It doesn't matter if you call yourselves christians, muslims hare krishnas -- whatever. Your mythological indoctrination leaves you all nuttier than a fruitcake, and history is littered with the horrors wrought on humanity in the name of whatever incarnation of god is demanding them in your addled minds.
What a blight on the world is religion.
You're all crazy to believe in a mythology for which there is no, and never has been, any scientific evidence, much less proof, and worse, to actually make war on each other in the name of an illusion created in the fevered minds of other nutcases thousands of years ago.
This thread has become a perfect example of the insanity of religion -- all of them.
No wonder the world is screwed up.
Meh. A pox on all of ye.
97 - Jordan Richardson
There is a long list of imperical evidence which supports that something rotten grows in Islam...
The same can be said for all religions and, indeed, humanity as a whole. Just observing our comings and goings as a species is quite disgusting.
Come on, Allen. We were making progress. Let's not starting heaving exclusive concepts around now.
Tell me, does God discern when it comes to sinfulness? Or is sin sin? One sin isn't worse than another in the eyes of God, as ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. In our world, we attach meaning, rightly, to various sinful acts. But in the eyes of God, we're all equal sinners.
The same goes for religion. In these terms, there's no "more destructive religion" and no "slightly less destructive religion." Because religion is a construct of humankind, said construct is inherently flawed and tarnished by sin.
98 - Wilbur
Glenn Contrarian,
Thank you for your reply. I think you got my point but in all fairness because my post got a bit long I cut out half of it. The point I was making was trying to morally equivocate between Islam visa via Christianity is like comparing an apple to an orange.
It is important to note the following comparative points:
1) Islam is not contextual in the true sense like Christianity is. All of the "nasty" verses in the Bible are all tied to a place, time,
and event. It is not a transcendent precriptive message meant for all
time(in many cases the agency is not us but God himself.) Islam on
the other hand does not view it itself in a contextual sense but a
transcendent one(the majority of verses also clearly indicate it is
the believers responsibility to enforce it.) This clearly means the
violent verses in the Quran and Hadiths are binding for all time. The
actual wording in the Quran also clearly indicates it is not
contextual.
2) Christianity has always been more predisposed to critique. Today
you don't get killed for questioning the truth of the Bible(not always
true but the reformation and enlightment ironed this out.) In Islam
you cannot question the word of God or Muhammad least you get the
death penalty. This aversion to critique was further expaneded on by
Al Ghazali when in his master work "the incoherence of the
philosophers" he stated greek thought(ie critical thought, logical
deduction, scientific method, and cause and effect) are heresy in the
face of what was revealed divinely. The proof is the current
deplorable state of the Islamic world in comparision to the rest of
the world. It is why almost all learning in the Islamic world is rote
following their model for religious indoctrination.
3)Muslims view Muhammad as the perfect man while we Christians view
Christ a model for our conduct. Muhammad married a six year old
consumating the marriange when she was 9, took/traded slaves, slept
with his slaves, called/led wars, led raids to steal, tortured a man
to find his treasure, had numerous people murdered for blasphemey,
personally killed people and issued threats to the world to embrace
Islam so they would be safe. This is a huge issue for Islam because
all Muslims must emulate Muhammad. Emulating Christ is good while
emulating Muhammad is cleary wrong by modern standards.
4) Christ's golden rule was "love thy enemy" while Islam's is "all
must submit to Allah." Islam will trot out similar verses but when
you do some digging you find out these verses are for Muslims only.
5) Christianity was uniquely predisposed to secular law via "leave
unto cesar's what is cesar's." Islam on the other hand has no such
verse but mandates the mosque is the state as well. It is why when
ever muslims reach a sizable majority they have no option but to push
for Sharia.
6) Islam is the only religion that has a doctrine for war. There are
literally hundereds of verses that encourage war to spread faith.
History proves this to be a fact and as stated in my last post you
don't see it today because they lack the means. The current sympathy
for Bin Laden is proof of this mindset as well. Those Muslim leaders
who reject violence reject it because it is suicidal to do so yet like
Al Qaeda they all believe Sharia must span the globe. The only
difference is one uses physical Jihad while organizations like the
Muslim Brotherhood pursue their goals through Jihad via the mouth,
pen, politics, legal, and finances. No other religion has a doctrine
for war let along permitting it to spread faith.
While it is is important to note many Christians(and their
governements) have commited horrific crimes you cannot find a shred of
scripture to support their actions. The crusades is often trotted out
as an example of this "evil" of Christianity but in no way does it
have any support in Christian doctrine. The Crusades were actually in
response to over 500 years of Jihad that conqured over 2/3's of the
Christian world.
Yes education, wealth, and freedom are the keys! It is has proven to
be the elixr for the West but I am not convinced it is so for Islam.
Islam is a static religion, resistant to change, indoctrinated through
rote methods, commands that it must be their entire way of life, and
uses the fear of death to keep its adherents in line. How in the
world do you break that when a believer does not believe in the
education, freedom, prosperity, and basic human development/rights we
believe in? How do you combat a faith that demands submission to its
truth calling its followers slaves? How do deal with a religion that
even rejects critical thought? Today you cannot and it is why the
Islamic world is largely a democratic free zone. Islam must reform
itself but the rub is Islam specifically prohibits change/reform
because how can God be wrong? Today we are seeing a battle of
civilizations and it is note worthy the only faith based group that
has issues with everyone else happens to be those following Islam. It
is time to realize this rather than sticking our heads in the sand.
While our foreign policy, corporate greed, blind support for Israel,
and other transgressions cause issues the underlining problem for
Islam will always be our unbelief(the Islamic worlds fixation on
Israel while they ignore their coreligionists still partaking in
ongoing genocide in Sudan is a perfect example.) Our collective
failure to realize this is why we will continually chase our tails
trying to figure out how to tolerate the intolerant. Islam throughout
history has shown it will never be appeased until all submit to Allah.
Its sadly why the only way Islam has ever been stopped/controlled was
through overwhelming force. Not all Muslims prescribe to this world
view but the unmoving message of Islam clearly does.
thx
Wilbur
99 - Jordan Richardson
Meh. A pox on all of ye.
That'll show 'em! I hope you all get syphilis!
100 - Clavos
That'll show 'em! I hope you all get syphilis!
Too wimpy, Jordan. AIDS.
101 - zingzing
i really don't think they can see that they deserve each other and that they're fucking shit up for the rest of us.
just calm down. who cares? if they're not "saved," let it be. (if that's not the end you're working for, what are you working for?)
102 - Jordan Richardson
Monkey Jesus is worth of praise!
103 - Glenn Contrarian
Hey Allen Scott -
Take a look at Wilbur's reply #98. It's thoughtful and insightful, has no insults, but is written as to an equal. THAT, sir, is how to discuss matters with people.
I would compare him to a humbler version of George Will...whereas you would fit right in with Glenn Beck. The scary thing is, you might even see that as a compliment to you....
104 - Clavos
This one isn't as humorous as yours, Jordan, but it and its sequel are apt for this thread, nonetheless.
105 - Me
Glenn wrote:
"An ex-member of the Church is not a Christian...and you never did address the question"
Duh, Yes I Did- I gave you my thoughts on that: Mataro sounds as dodgy as those who killed him, and they were all from your church ex or otherwise. (yep, I still happen to think your church cronies put a cap in his unfortunate ass- Something that You would never accept even if there was a watertight conviction.)
The whole situation reeks of rivalry over religion, Which was one of my points earlier now wasn't it?
Please Pay Attention.
And Glenn, I thought you wanted to keep this on topic, Islam?
Not the finer points of the perfidiousness and deviousness of your own Church.
Again. Pay Attention.
I'll speak to you later.
106 - Me
Clavos:
"You religious believers are effed in the head. It doesn't matter if you call yourselves christians, muslims hare krishnas -- whatever. Your mythological indoctrination leaves you all nuttier than a fruitcake, and history is littered with the horrors wrought on humanity in the name of whatever incarnation of god is demanding them in your addled minds
What a blight on the world is religion"
Succintly put. Nice.
107 - Glenn Contrarian
Wilbur -
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
On nos. 1 and 2, you put both in a different light that I hadn't considered before...and I think you're right.
On no. 3, I knew about all that...but they could as easily point back to what some of the most important men in the Old Testament did. I really don't consider this quite as strong a point.
On no. 4, I have to disagree - I can't remember the Qur'anic verse offhand, but I strongly remember one that stated that unbelievers were not to be killed.
On no. 5, I have to disagree with this one, too. Why? Because of all the Muslim countries, only Shi'a-ruled Iran has a religious figure who wields significant political power within the government (Ayatollah Khamenei, IIRC). The Sunni governments, as I understand it - and as explained by Vali Nasr, a Shiite who teaches at the Naval Postgraduate School (or did), in his book "The Shi'a Revival" - while Sunni religion is very strong in Sunni society and politics, the Sunni people are more concerned with someone who is governing well than with someone who adheres strictly to Sunni doctrine. Nasr's book is illuminating, and was on the Navy's recommended reading list for officers. I strongly recommend it.
On no. 6 - true enough.
You then said:
While it is is important to note many Christians(and their
governements) have commited horrific crimes you cannot find a shred of
scripture to support their actions.
Actually, it was Jesus who said that he was not bringing peace, but was bringing a sword...meaning (to me) that He knew what was going to happen in the centuries to come, that 'Christians' would fight so many wars within and without the faith.
On your last paragraph, I've two notes. One, 'Christianity' also rejects critical thought - as evinced by the battle over teaching evolution in our schools...though I admit we're leaps and bounds beyond them in keeping religion out of schools. That, and on your comment that:
Its sadly why the only way Islam has ever been stopped/controlled was
through overwhelming force.
I disagree strongly with this statement. Look at Turkey - a Muslim nation with a secular government...and the ONLY reason fundamentalists have made significant strides in the past years is because of our illegal invasion of Iraq...and our tacit support of the Kurds. Left to its own devices i.e. no stupid invasions of other Muslim nations by 'Christian' nations, Turkey's a very good example of how a Muslim nation can live and coexist peacefully with the rest of the world!
The current 'Arab Spring' is a golden opportunity for the West to diplomatically encourage the various nations to emulate Turkey...and I think that by remaining largely silent on the matter other than speaking a few words of support for the people, Obama's doing the right thing - because all the Islamic hardliners need to see is more inflammatory language from the U.S. that they can use as recruiting material and to keep the moderates under the heel of the fundamentalists.
108 - Glenn Contrarian
'Me' -
Duh, Yes I Did- I gave you my thoughts on that: Mataro sounds as dodgy as those who killed him, and they were all from your church ex or otherwise. (yep, I still happen to think your church cronies put a cap in his unfortunate ass- Something that You would never accept even if there was a watertight conviction.)
And your personal certainty is based on...what? Oh - it's because You Just Know It.
You have no desire to consider that maybe the family of the one he tried to kill might have killed him. But why would you consider that if it gives you a chance to accuse the Church? I hope you're never on a jury, guy.
109 - Cannonshop
#96 Clav, Religion would be just fine...if not for the Religious people who follow it.
110 - Clavos
Cannonshop,
Amen, Bro. :)
111 - Costello
Hysterical to see Allen's comments show him to be much closer to the people he hates than he realizes. Must be something with the name. Wasn't that other anti-Muslim writer named Allen?
112 - Irene Athena
Allen, please stop misrepresenting Jesus Christ. Your words are filled with hate, and you are disrespecting everyone here, and making them hate Jesus even more. Do you want that?
Here are the words of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (Kustin Martyr, c.100AD) on War. There was a direct line of teaching and thus authority from John the disciple of Jesus, to him:
"For from Jerusalem twelve men went out into the world, and these (were) unlearned, unable to speak; but by (the) power of God they told every race of men that they had been sent by Christ to teach all (men) the word of God. And we, who were formerly slayers of one another, not only do not make war upon our enemies, but, for the sake of neither lying nor deceiving those who examine us, gladly die confessing Christ."
"And we who had been filled with war and mutual slaughter and every wickedness, have each one " all the world over " changed the instruments of war, the swords into ploughs and the spears into farming instruments, and we cultivate piety, righteousness, love for men, faith, (and) the hope which is from the Father Himself through the Crucified One."
The increasing infection of the Roman Church with the militarism of Rome was one of the most compelling reasons the earliest "Protestants" misnamed cults and violently persecuted who were the spiritual ancestors of the Moravians and followers of Hus whose thought informed the Protestant Reformation centuries later, but not the Calvininsts, unfortunately. The Evangelical Church, especially in the 20th/21st century, has also become the tool of the State, which has become aggressive as the Roman Empire in its desire to manipulate and control the world.
Here is are a 3rd century Church Father (Aronobius) on the militarization of Rome and the Church, contrasting Christ with the Roman emporers who were moving Christians (post-Constantine) into an increasing tolerance for violence and war:
"Did he, claiming royal power for himself, occupy the whole world with fierce legions, and, (of) nations at peace from the beginning, destroy and remove some, and compel others to put their necks beneath his yoke and obey him?"
You can read more, if interested in
113 - Irene Athena
You can read more in The Early Christian Attitude Toward War by Laurence Vance, a very strong Bible-believing Baptist.
114 - Me
Glenn said: "And your personal certainty is based on...what? Oh - it's because You Just know it?"
Lets call it a google hunch dude, and a serious mistrust of the nefarious machinations of your church.
115 - Allen Scott
Smiling with appreciation of a job well done and taking delight in even getting those who opposed the thesis to agree the thesis is correct I now leave you all to argue among yourselves who is the greatest.
My thesis was:
Offenses happen in life such is the human condition to which we all agree.
Since offenses happen to all people regardless of ones state in life it should not be considered an anomaly when they happen in fact it should be expected, such is the nature of man. To which all are in agreement.
Learning how to deal with offenses is a life lesson we all would do well to learn. Again all stand in agreement.
If one responds to an offense with violence or lawlessness they should expect opposing forces to respond in kind. Again all seem to agree.
Conclusion: instead of crying foul quit being foul. To which we all admit is easier said than done which is why all attempts to control human nature by man-made methods fail. A point I believe we all agree on.
Since we all fall short there is none righteous among us. He who is without sin then let them be the first to cast a stone. And since there were many stones being cast some of us must feel we are morally superior. On this we do not agree.
This is why the world is in desperate need of a heart transplant which is the exclusive claim of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He was correct when he said man needs to be born again. Transformed from corruptible to incorruptible. Released from the baser elements of human frailty into the heavenly kingdom of God. With man this is impossible only through Jesus Christ can the nature of man be changed. Therefore there is a huge difference between the gospel of Christ and all the world religions.
But had I written the post like this comment it would not have garnered nary a peep from any of you.
My work here is done. Thank me!
Now let me ponder what to rant about next. Perhaps why liberalism is a learning disorder, or maybe tackle why atheism is the deadliest religion of all. Until next time I bid thee Godspeed.
116 - Dr Dreadful
The person who feels the need to declare himself the winner of an argument has almost certainly lost it.
117 - Clavos
This is why the world is in desperate need of a heart transplant which is the exclusive claim of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Tell that to the Wahhabi. Or the Buddhists. The Jews. Hell, try convincing the Unitarians.
Bwahahahahaha!
118 - Christopher Rose
Allen, all you have proven is 1) you're vain and 2) religion makes you stupid.
119 - Allen Scott
Christopher
#1 you do not know me
#2 apparently your chosen ideology has not done much to advance your intellect.
Good day
120 - Wilbur
Glenn Contrarian,
Again thank you for the reply. Regarding your points:
No. 3) "I really don't consider this quite as strong a point."
I couldn't more strongly disagree however like you I originally had the same thoughts when first confronted with this. Going back to my point of using your own societal/religious upbringing I would respectful argue you are erroneously attributing your own learning/leanings to Islam. To shed some light on this consider the Quran says "We have indeed, in the Messenger of Allah, a good example (of conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day." [Holy Quran 33:21] Coupled with the prescriptive nature of Islam this made Muhammad's actions/rulings/sayings binding for all Muslims. It is why under Sharia the legal marriage age is between 6 and 9, people are killed for Blasphemey, and slavery under Sharia is still legal. To further stress this consider all four Sunni and the two Shia schools of thought (comprising about 95% of all Muslims) mandate the death penalty for apostasy despite the Quran intimating it is Allah's who should judge this. Yet despite what the Quran says the consensus on numerous Hadiths Islam mandates deat for apostasy because Muhammad said "whoever changes his religion kill him." For some additional perspective read this article on the topic: http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/muhammad/perfect_man.html
No. 4) "I have to disagree - I can't remember the Qur'anic verse offhand, but I strongly remember one that stated that unbelievers were not to be killed."
Islam does not mean peace but submission. The peace is only possible once all submit to Allah. To that end the golden rules truly only applies to Muslims. Further islam considers unbelief the greatest source of evil. This predisposes a guilt on all non Muslims and sets the precedance for denying us golden rules that would normally apply. You are correct non Muslims must not be killed out of hand but the fact they can kill us when waging war to spread faith(if we resist) this dispells any notion of universal golden rule in Islam.
No. 5) I agree not all Islamic states are full fledged Sharia states. Only Iran and Saudia Arabi would qualify for this. However each and every islamic states has laws directly sourced from Sharia. Most of the states specifically state this in their constitutions also spelling out Islam is the official religion of the state. It is why almost Islamic states missionary work of non Muslims is prohibited, severly restrict and even ban entire religions, deny equal rights to non Muslims(this is dirctly from the Quran--also google the cario decleration of human rights for further perspective), and are the only states today that still mandate religious status on ids(now why would they want to do that?)
Additional points:
1) "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" (Matthew 10:34)
This verse is often taken out of context. If your read the additional verses it clearly intimates it is God doing this and at the very least a metaphor. At the very least I would agree it foretold of future conflict but not of the offensive nature. Regardless the entire context of the Christ's teaching contradict any kind of force via the sword to spread faith let alone solve differences.
2)Critical thought: We agree on this point and it is important to understand faith at its purest is the absence of reason. All religions are afflicted to this but Islam with its prescriptive mandate focus seems to be the worst. Reminds the time the Saudi vice police bared girls from leaving a dormitory because they were not properly veiled--15 girls burned to death after being beaten back into the building.
3) Islam only being stopped with force: I would agree with your point if Islam didn't set a bloody historical precedent for this. The modern state of affairs are more a position of not having the power to wage war. Yes our trasgressions such as the evil Iraq war do have a linkage to the unrest in the Islamic world. However this does not answer the question of why Islam was so frequently spread by the sword. The Islamic world wants to hide this fact because it harms their efforts to spread Islam and more importantly because they are in a state of weakness.
Turkey is a good example for today but it must be noted they still deny the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian genocides that took 2.5 million lives in the early 1900's. In addition Turkey is also the home of Orthodox Christianity yet after numerous population exchanges, pogroms, and genocides it is almost 99% Muslim. When you then extend their history to include the Ottaman Empire the whole affair is sheathed in blood.
I would also ask you to ponder if Islam is truly peacful why does the Sira spend over 70% of its time on Jihad(much of it the of the offensive kind)and what use would they have for a doctrine for war if they did not intend to use it? Current conditions seem to dispell this but Islam's scripture and it's historical precedance prove out the point the only reason other religions exist is because Islam was stopped by force. Many Muslims will try to whitewash this by admitting to offensive Jihad but stating it is only done to end tyranny and oppression. The key words are "tryanny and oppression" because both are words used to describe the state of unbelief in Islam. In the end the rub will always be our state of unbelief--Islam clearly states Muslims can never accept it.
Thx
Wilbur
121 - Christopher Rose
Allen, I know you by your writing, which is shallow and presumptive and I don't have a chosen ideology, hence proving my second point...
122 - Andy Marsh
Even though I bascially threw out religion with the rest of the garbage a while back I do have to point out one thing...
The way I was taught back in the day, as they say, is that if you're not catholic, you're going to hell anyway! And apparently, as a catholic, I can talk shit about it until the day I die, as long as I get last rites!!!
But all you "progressive" types keep defending the religion of peace. It's like defending a pitbull. I mean, for the most part, they're very nice well behaved dogs and it's a nice thing to do until one of the fuckers latches on to your arm, then WTF do you do?
123 - Allen Scott
Wilbur and Glenn thank you so much for your contributions to this thread. Of all I feel yours holds the most value to anyone who really wants to study the issue. A big thank you to you both.
124 - Allen Scott
OH I almost forgot one final shout-out to Jordan Robinson for being selected as blogcritic of the month or something like that and I failed to acknowledge his contributions to this thread. Congrats Jordan. Forgive my oversight.
125 - Jordan Richardson
And here's to me, Mr. Robinson. Jesus loves me more than you will know. Wo wo wo.