In fairness Silas, I have not heard even one Christian come to this judge's defense.
27 -
Bastarda
May 31, 2005 at 8:32 am
Al:
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree in this matter, although your "cat licker" comment had me laughing so that I spewed my coffee all over the place. Though I agree that there are overtly visible terrorists activities carried out in the name of Islam, I cannot ignore the guerilla tactics our current White House administration has been using in the name of Chirstianity. Sometimes a legislative "bomb" is far worse than a real one exploding. The faith based legislation being discussed and passed in this country, to me, is a form of violent terrorism that affects the rights of the individual and can be much more destructive on a whole society. I need more coffee.
Terrible ruling from the court and you should add Islam to the "mainstream" list of religious beliefs.
If you want to put Wahabi Islam into the BS category, I would agree, but Islam is a major world religion and so, even if you disagree with it, deserves to be labelled "mainstream" (whatever that means. :-)
David
29 -
JR
May 31, 2005 at 2:26 pm
David Koresh was not violent. The feds ran in on him all crazy with little or no provocation.
With all those guns he had, the dude seemed to be prepared for a pretty violent response.
hey, what about the Church of John Coltrane and the Church of the Subgenius?
31 -
HW Saxton
May 31, 2005 at 3:02 pm
Mark,
The Church Of The Sub Genius,since you
mentioned them, set up a pumpkin patch
for selling Jack O Lantern pumpkins on
a street not far from me last Halloween
season.I live out in Vegas and I do not
know more than 3 or 4 people that are
hip to their "thing". It was a very,very
strange thing and the guy running it was
a normal looking middle aged man and he
didn't say much about T.C.O.T.S.G other
than he found them interesting and funny
as hell.He would not say it came about
that they were sponsoring the pumpkin
sale or anything. I didn't press him as
I thought it was funny and better left
as a practical joke and/or total enigma.
PS: Is the Coltrane Church still open?
Last time I was in S.F they were located
on Divisadero St. I believe. I'd forgot
all about them.At least as legit as the
Scientologists and a lot hipper!!!
Now Bastarda, don't you think this is a little bit WAY too much?
"The faith based legislation being discussed and passed in this country, to me, is a form of violent terrorism that affects the rights of the individual and can be much more destructive on a whole society."
The faith based initiatives amount to letting some private church groups get in on some of the money for running soup kitchens and such, along with all the completely secular groups. I can see why you might find this questionable, but it hardly constitutes "violent terrorism."
No JR, Koresh was not acting in a violent manner. Merely possessing firearms does not constitute intent to be violent. Our house has more weapons per capita than the Branch Davidian compound did. Koresh was not planning violence, nor acting in any belligerant manner. Then one day the army showed up at his door, tanks and all.
I think the faith based legislation Bastarda was talking about may have been things like banning stem cell research and forcing prayer on schools and the like, rather than the more innocuous idea of farming out some social sevice jobs to private charities.
Dave
34 -
Bastarda
May 31, 2005 at 5:18 pm
Dave:
Exactly right. My qualms with faith based legislation have nothing to do with said private charities and soup kitchens. I was speaking more of the issues that are thinning the line between church and state at an alarming rate.
35 -
gonzo marx
May 31, 2005 at 5:31 pm
bah..
i don't wanna see any "church" get one single dime of taxpayer money , from federal, state or town..
until..
they pay their fucking taxes!!!
besides the whole "seperation of church and state" issue...i don't feel sorry for some of the richest organizations in the world who say they need cash but don't pay into the tax base
nuff said?
Excelsior!
36 -
Bastarda
May 31, 2005 at 5:37 pm
Al:
No, I don't think it was WAY too much. Terrorism can be defined as a "system of government that seeks to rule by intimidation". A government that pushes the religious convictions of those that hold positions of power in said government into its legislation can be seen as a means of terrorism. By instilling these faith based legislative acts, those who oppose them, in many cases, do not receive funding and/or government backing, and are being forced to conform through financial intimidation (i.e. funding of stem cell research, abortion privacies and disclosures, prayer in schools, evolution/creationism debate in schools, et al.)
In any event, we all came to this article from some sort of link which may mean we have a few common ideals and interests. I came upon this link from an Atheist newsgroup. I'm curious to know where everyone else is from as I am enjoying this discussion with all of you very much. It's quite refreshing to come upon intellectual conversation on an internet saturated with "U suk" and "Metallica ROX!" chat rooms. (On a side note, I'm not criticizing Metallica as I personally think they do "rock"; I was just trying to make a point).
It's disturbing that a judge would try and dictate what parents may or may not teach children. What about the "religious" folk who hand their children "God Hates Fags" banners at anti-gay rallies? Where are the judges then?
Anyway, I believe Al's just trying to stir the pot with his BS v. non-BS section.
And that said, I'd like to add one glaring omission:
Star Trek
38 -
Nancy
Jun 01, 2005 at 11:10 am
Live long & prosper, all!
Coffee sounds good about now ....
39 -
noname
Sep 16, 2005 at 1:18 am
I don't know if this was supposed to be funny or whatever, but making a list of "Illegitimate BS" is wrong. I would like to see this author go up to a Muslim or Jehovah's Witness and tell them their religion is wrong. That's just bigotry.
But even more interesting, notice how this author never went into how he decided which religions went into each category, and if he did have some logic behind it, no doubt he would have oustanding, incorrect concepts.
Again, if this was supposed to be funny, well, whatever, but this guy sounds serious. He's calling the judge an idiot when he's making a list of "Illegitimate BS" religions? Please.
I do agree this judge is a moron. I always find it funny, however, that we, the people, or at least the ones in that district, elect these people as our officials. Think about it, we elected this stupid judge! He should be put under review for this ruling, which was very disgusting.
40 -
Luke
Sep 16, 2005 at 2:45 am
Why are you trying to split religions into those groups, it's absurd, how can a belief be illegitimate? By definition a belief doesn't have to be true, so how you judge it's legitimacy? It's just god damn fucking stupid of you to say that, it's like grabbing handfulls of inanimate objects, and then seperating them into two seperate piles, one for animate, and one for inanimate, but wait! the inanimate objects in the animate pile are in fact inanimate, how did you ever manage to put it in that pile?
Wicca's not dangerous, unless you're a dietician ... it's the life-calling and deep spiritual meaning of fat hippie chicks everywhere who don't believe in deodorant, personal grooming, or shaving body hair.
Noname isn't reading very close, as I did list some criteria for my sorting, most significantly my estimation of how well the religion's adherents work and play with others.
I try to be nice about it, but I'll gladly tell anyone their beliefs are wrong if we get to talking. If you pretty much keep your beliefs to yourself, then indulge your fantasies freely. If you come proselytizing, that's cool too, but then you're inviting my opinions in return.
Taking a low opinion of somebody's BS does not make you a bigot. It is exactly the intolerance of bigotry that's the top thing getting religions on my "illegitimate BS" list, notably the Scientologists and the Muslims. Yes, yes, only SOME of them.
Plus, as Warren Oates as Sgt Hulka put it, "Lighten up, Francis." MY lists are only for amusement, as I would not presume to give them the force of law.
And if you happen to be involved with one of my listed BS groups, maybe you could take it as something to think about as to WHY someone else would put you on the shit list.
43 -
Taloran
Sep 16, 2005 at 11:41 am
From the Indy Star: August 18, 2005 - An Indianapolis father can share his Wiccan beliefs and rituals with his 10-year-old son, a state appeals court ruled Wednesday in a unanimous decision upholding parents' rights to share their religion with their children.
The court declared that a Marion County judge erred in approving a divorce decree last year that also directed the man and his ex-wife to shelter their son from "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."
As suggested above, this is pretty much the only way the appeals court could have ruled, without scrapping that pesky First Amendment.
I have a new strain of right and wrong for any takers. I'm sure we've all heard by now about the state of texas kidnapping over 400 children from the FLDS at elderado going in mind you on a fake report with swat,guns and taking all women and children away like criminals then telling the mothers that they can go back to the ranch OR work to get their kids back. and at one point the cops and cps(child protective services) told the lawyers the could NOT see and confer with their clients. now the kids are scatterd all over texas trying to deal with culture shoke and wondering what they did that they are in trouble for and where are mommy and daddy. the state of texas said in a statement that they had been watching the ranch from the moment it was perchesd in 2003 before anyone moved in. does this sound like case of had it in for them from the start? the FLDS had no weapons to speak of and no intintion of using them. and to top it off the person who called was a black woman from colorado springs with no connection to the FLDS what so ever. CAN ANYONE SAY SET UP? I say from the get go!!!!!!!
Article comments
26 - Al Barger
In fairness Silas, I have not heard even one Christian come to this judge's defense.
27 - Bastarda
Al:
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree in this matter, although your "cat licker" comment had me laughing so that I spewed my coffee all over the place. Though I agree that there are overtly visible terrorists activities carried out in the name of Islam, I cannot ignore the guerilla tactics our current White House administration has been using in the name of Chirstianity. Sometimes a legislative "bomb" is far worse than a real one exploding. The faith based legislation being discussed and passed in this country, to me, is a form of violent terrorism that affects the rights of the individual and can be much more destructive on a whole society. I need more coffee.
28 - David Flanagan
Terrible ruling from the court and you should add Islam to the "mainstream" list of religious beliefs.
If you want to put Wahabi Islam into the BS category, I would agree, but Islam is a major world religion and so, even if you disagree with it, deserves to be labelled "mainstream" (whatever that means. :-)
David
29 - JR
David Koresh was not violent. The feds ran in on him all crazy with little or no provocation.
With all those guns he had, the dude seemed to be prepared for a pretty violent response.
30 - Mark Saleski
hey, what about the Church of John Coltrane and the Church of the Subgenius?
31 - HW Saxton
Mark,
The Church Of The Sub Genius,since you
mentioned them, set up a pumpkin patch
for selling Jack O Lantern pumpkins on
a street not far from me last Halloween
season.I live out in Vegas and I do not
know more than 3 or 4 people that are
hip to their "thing". It was a very,very
strange thing and the guy running it was
a normal looking middle aged man and he
didn't say much about T.C.O.T.S.G other
than he found them interesting and funny
as hell.He would not say it came about
that they were sponsoring the pumpkin
sale or anything. I didn't press him as
I thought it was funny and better left
as a practical joke and/or total enigma.
PS: Is the Coltrane Church still open?
Last time I was in S.F they were located
on Divisadero St. I believe. I'd forgot
all about them.At least as legit as the
Scientologists and a lot hipper!!!
32 - Al Barger
Now Bastarda, don't you think this is a little bit WAY too much?
"The faith based legislation being discussed and passed in this country, to me, is a form of violent terrorism that affects the rights of the individual and can be much more destructive on a whole society."
The faith based initiatives amount to letting some private church groups get in on some of the money for running soup kitchens and such, along with all the completely secular groups. I can see why you might find this questionable, but it hardly constitutes "violent terrorism."
No JR, Koresh was not acting in a violent manner. Merely possessing firearms does not constitute intent to be violent. Our house has more weapons per capita than the Branch Davidian compound did. Koresh was not planning violence, nor acting in any belligerant manner. Then one day the army showed up at his door, tanks and all.
33 - Dave Nalle
I think the faith based legislation Bastarda was talking about may have been things like banning stem cell research and forcing prayer on schools and the like, rather than the more innocuous idea of farming out some social sevice jobs to private charities.
Dave
34 - Bastarda
Dave:
Exactly right. My qualms with faith based legislation have nothing to do with said private charities and soup kitchens. I was speaking more of the issues that are thinning the line between church and state at an alarming rate.
35 - gonzo marx
bah..
i don't wanna see any "church" get one single dime of taxpayer money , from federal, state or town..
until..
they pay their fucking taxes!!!
besides the whole "seperation of church and state" issue...i don't feel sorry for some of the richest organizations in the world who say they need cash but don't pay into the tax base
nuff said?
Excelsior!
36 - Bastarda
Al:
No, I don't think it was WAY too much. Terrorism can be defined as a "system of government that seeks to rule by intimidation". A government that pushes the religious convictions of those that hold positions of power in said government into its legislation can be seen as a means of terrorism. By instilling these faith based legislative acts, those who oppose them, in many cases, do not receive funding and/or government backing, and are being forced to conform through financial intimidation (i.e. funding of stem cell research, abortion privacies and disclosures, prayer in schools, evolution/creationism debate in schools, et al.)
In any event, we all came to this article from some sort of link which may mean we have a few common ideals and interests. I came upon this link from an Atheist newsgroup. I'm curious to know where everyone else is from as I am enjoying this discussion with all of you very much. It's quite refreshing to come upon intellectual conversation on an internet saturated with "U suk" and "Metallica ROX!" chat rooms. (On a side note, I'm not criticizing Metallica as I personally think they do "rock"; I was just trying to make a point).
37 - Eric Berlin
It's disturbing that a judge would try and dictate what parents may or may not teach children. What about the "religious" folk who hand their children "God Hates Fags" banners at anti-gay rallies? Where are the judges then?
Anyway, I believe Al's just trying to stir the pot with his BS v. non-BS section.
And that said, I'd like to add one glaring omission:
Star Trek
38 - Nancy
Live long & prosper, all!
Coffee sounds good about now ....
39 - noname
I don't know if this was supposed to be funny or whatever, but making a list of "Illegitimate BS" is wrong. I would like to see this author go up to a Muslim or Jehovah's Witness and tell them their religion is wrong. That's just bigotry.
But even more interesting, notice how this author never went into how he decided which religions went into each category, and if he did have some logic behind it, no doubt he would have oustanding, incorrect concepts.
Again, if this was supposed to be funny, well, whatever, but this guy sounds serious. He's calling the judge an idiot when he's making a list of "Illegitimate BS" religions? Please.
I do agree this judge is a moron. I always find it funny, however, that we, the people, or at least the ones in that district, elect these people as our officials. Think about it, we elected this stupid judge! He should be put under review for this ruling, which was very disgusting.
40 - Luke
Why are you trying to split religions into those groups, it's absurd, how can a belief be illegitimate? By definition a belief doesn't have to be true, so how you judge it's legitimacy? It's just god damn fucking stupid of you to say that, it's like grabbing handfulls of inanimate objects, and then seperating them into two seperate piles, one for animate, and one for inanimate, but wait! the inanimate objects in the animate pile are in fact inanimate, how did you ever manage to put it in that pile?
41 - Bob A. Booey
Wicca's not dangerous, unless you're a dietician ... it's the life-calling and deep spiritual meaning of fat hippie chicks everywhere who don't believe in deodorant, personal grooming, or shaving body hair.
That is all.
42 - Al Barger
Noname isn't reading very close, as I did list some criteria for my sorting, most significantly my estimation of how well the religion's adherents work and play with others.
I try to be nice about it, but I'll gladly tell anyone their beliefs are wrong if we get to talking. If you pretty much keep your beliefs to yourself, then indulge your fantasies freely. If you come proselytizing, that's cool too, but then you're inviting my opinions in return.
Taking a low opinion of somebody's BS does not make you a bigot. It is exactly the intolerance of bigotry that's the top thing getting religions on my "illegitimate BS" list, notably the Scientologists and the Muslims. Yes, yes, only SOME of them.
Plus, as Warren Oates as Sgt Hulka put it, "Lighten up, Francis." MY lists are only for amusement, as I would not presume to give them the force of law.
And if you happen to be involved with one of my listed BS groups, maybe you could take it as something to think about as to WHY someone else would put you on the shit list.
43 - Taloran
From the Indy Star:
August 18, 2005 - An Indianapolis father can share his Wiccan beliefs and rituals with his 10-year-old son, a state appeals court ruled Wednesday in a unanimous decision upholding parents' rights to share their religion with their children.
The court declared that a Marion County judge erred in approving a divorce decree last year that also directed the man and his ex-wife to shelter their son from "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."
As suggested above, this is pretty much the only way the appeals court could have ruled, without scrapping that pesky First Amendment.
44 - Bob A. Booey
Senator, tell me my beliefs are wrong.
I dare you.
That is all.
45 - rynnsdragon
I have a new strain of right and wrong for any takers. I'm sure we've all heard by now about the state of texas kidnapping over 400 children from the FLDS at elderado going in mind you on a fake report with swat,guns and taking all women and children away like criminals then telling the mothers that they can go back to the ranch OR work to get their kids back. and at one point the cops and cps(child protective services) told the lawyers the could NOT see and confer with their clients. now the kids are scatterd all over texas trying to deal with culture shoke and wondering what they did that they are in trouble for and where are mommy and daddy. the state of texas said in a statement that they had been watching the ranch from the moment it was perchesd in 2003 before anyone moved in. does this sound like case of had it in for them from the start? the FLDS had no weapons to speak of and no intintion of using them. and to top it off the person who called was a black woman from colorado springs with no connection to the FLDS what so ever. CAN ANYONE SAY SET UP? I say from the get go!!!!!!!