Sexual abuse, sexual tyranny, and sadism in Austria.
Daily we are bombarded by news of horrible events. Technology provides continuous fodder for our curiosity, and many of us are both drawn to and repelled by what is presented on our computer or plasma screens.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments226 - tracymae
I wonder if elisabeth will ever be able to make love to a man after what she went through all those years. I believe that she should not come forward for the world she needs to say hidden cause if she comes out she will never have peace and the kids will never have peace. I just can't see how she loves those kids. I realize they are hers and its not their fault but they are the kids from a monster situation. those kids are the product of INCEST ugly RAPE and terrible memories its amazing to me. I think they need to have Felix adopted into a good home and no one will know who he is and he will have a good life without the celler boy title.
227 - Deanna
tracy I kinda agree, if he was adopted into a new home he could have a good life. its to bad all those kids are not young enough to have been adopted out. if felix was adopted out he might never have to know that he is the product of incest how can they go on knowing that wow
228 - Jen
Traceymae and Deanna,
I don't believe little Felix would be better off if he was adopted out, he needs to be with Elisabeth and his siblings, do you honestly think mother and son would ever want to be separated????
By the way, Deanna the one who's "fucked up in the head" as you put it, is Fritzl.
Tiina,
Couldn't agree with you more: Elisabeth should NEVER be forced to do anything she doesn't want to do (including showing her face on TV) EVER AGAIN.
The woman has lived a nightmare no of us can imagine, yet some people say "just get the interview over with"...well, it wouldn't be that easy to just sit there and calmly relive 24 years of incarceration and rape to the whole world, SHE DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT, simple! She and her children haven't asked for any of the things that happened to them, they are innocent victims of a horrendous crime and as such and their privacy should be respected.
229 - Kelly
Jen, I agree with everything you say! Well put!
I know I was a bit disappointed to learn that Elisabeth doesn't wish to have her personal life on display (so that people can pick it apart and make judgements about her or her children), but I certainly respect her decision. Maybe, years from now, when she's ready, she'll share some of her story with us and how she's getting along now that she's free.
But I do think we all must be very careful with regards to what we think she "should" or "shouldn't" do or has done. There isn't one person here who has shared an identical experience such as Elisabeth and her family and it's not up to us to define what is right and wrong for her.
Just keep her in your prayers, that's what she needs most from us right now.
230 - Jen
Lunchlady,
I just read your comment above also. Well said!
231 - lise
When it comes to Elisabeth Fritzl and her family, there are few models to compare. The length of time she survived, the abuse, and the source of the abuse is indeed horrific beyond our understanding. Publicity about the case is based upon the curiosity of the public. From what I have read, I think that Elisabeth is an amazing woman... she gave birth alone to seven children and provided them with love and nurturing while she herself was abused. As has been mentioned before, these are children born out of horrific abuse, yet Elisabeth has been nothing but a remarkably caring woman. The person in all of this who is a mystery is her mother. Over and over again, it has been proven that mothers' of incest victims knew "something" was going on and failed to help. Given that we can again look at Elisabeth (who must have used her mother as a model in caring for her children alone) even more credit for pushing her mother into the role she presently occupies, caregiver for the group. It is the mother/grandmother who has faced the public and gone to the cellar to obtain the requested items, it is the grandmother/mother who has remained with the children and her daughter. People may be curious about this awfulness, but I think that maybe we can be more congratulatory to these people who have been victims of a horrific experience
232 - Mary
How could they ever live a normal life again? Maybe she could learn to accept that she and her children were born to suffer like this and nothing can change it. They were the chosen ones. They need not be ashame of themselves. They are innocent victims and should try to live life the best they can and be thankful that they did finally escape from hell. The world can go to hell because no one knows and no one would want to trade places with them. To testify or not to testify is up to her. Even if they hung the monster or sentence him to life in prison, it would not change anything. We all love to put him in his cellar chained up for 9mths and be whipped everyday for the rest of his life.
But what's More important is for Elizabeth to get plenty of support maybe from spiritual healers to learn to become peaceful, and maybe learn to live again as best she can. leave the past behind, get healthy and move on. She would also need plenty of money to help her get there. She should have daily exercise and meditation sessions and talk to professional care givers and get whatever she needs to help her cope everyday. She does not necessarily need to shun the public and be afraid of the media because nothing should ever hurt her anymore than what she had lived through till now. She can be helped to learn how to handle her new status in life. People will be talking about them for a long time and she can learn to not be afraid of what people think of her and her family and to learn to be able to talk about her pain.
To achieve mental freedom is not impossible. She needs all the help possible and it would take time to heal. I wish she could achieve all these things one day.
233 - lunchlady
Their privacy should be respected, but it won't be. They are celebrities now, like Paris or Britney. It wasn't their choice, unlike the annoying ladies I just mentioned, but they are in the same boat. The world's interest in the family, including us, is what will drive the media to hound them. A good picture gets someone a nice check because it sells magazines or generates clicks on a website.
The practical and realistic thing to do, I think, is to go ahead and get the blood money (their own blood) from the press and then use it to live the celebrity life style with a bodyguards and a good security system. When the press and the public lose interest, which they eventually will, hopefully, then you can get rid of the bodyguards and go about your business with an occasional annoying photographer catching you out shopping or your kids walking to school. Actually, the bodyguards might continue to be needed because of the weirdos being sexually intrigued by the family. They may have to wait for a decade for the public to tire of seeing pictures of them at grocery store.
However I doubt anyone in the family is in the emotional condition to withstand this sort of additional stress-inducing excitement. But they may not have any choice if they want to get out of their current prison.
234 - Kay
The latest I've read is that Elizabeth has given her testimony about her ordeal at Josef's hands in a special court. Josef waived his right to attend the video transmitted questioning of Elizabeth. Lisa, the 15 year old that was raised above ground, has attended a 4 day camp under an alias...no one knew who she was at camp. The family is healing and busy writing replies to the hundreds of letters they are receiving from well wishers. Does anyone know their address? I would like to send them a nice get well card. A simple card with nice wishes can be so healing to someone who is ill!
235 - Kay
Also read that little Felix is learning to swim!
236 - Deanna
mary I agree
237 - Mary
Kay,
You could try to send your greeting cards address to their Horror House which is located at the infamous street Ybbsstrasse
Rosemarie may be going back to collect her mails every week who knows. Unless someone else knows of another address where they could be reached. goodluck!
238 - Mary
Thanks, Mary....
That would make sense that someone is getting the mail from their house. I'll send a card and hope they get it!
239 - lunchlady
The address for the hospital is probably relatively easy to find online. I'll try to do that later, gotta go right now.
240 - Juliann Mitchell, PhD
Hi Everyone,
Just a comment on the address for Elizabeth and her children. I would encourage anyone who finds the address NOT to put it up here.
Please keep the address private and ask the people who want to have it to email you privately.
A lot of people, it seems, have been reading the comments but not posting, which is fine, but we do not want to put Elizabeth and her family in a situation where they might receive mail that is not caring, compassionate, thinking of them and wishing them well.
Yes, it can happen, and everyone's heart is not in the right place. I wouldn't want Elizabeth to be further victimized by those who might send sick or vicious mail to the address posted.
Thanks,
Juliann
241 - Kay
Juliann,
Sorry. I agree with you and thanks for pointing this out....I should have known better...not a good idea to put their address here.
Kay
242 - Deanna
elisabeth does not need mail she needs peace
243 - Mary
...and money too Deanna. lots and lots of money for the therapy she and her family will need for a long time and other expenses needed to cope with such an extreme and exceptionally difficult life.
As for the monster, lots of people are waiting to get him. He has angered the world through his wicked deeds and surely he won't escape us. I won't be surprise someone out there will kill him if not the inmates will torture him to death in prison.He is already a dead duck. The whole of Austria I imagine is also very angry for having been given such a bad name and being held responsible for his evilness.(They demanded to burn down the Horror House remember?)They want to kill him too. If the law does not do it, people will. But in the end, the coward will probably commit suiside like hitler.
244 - Go Figure
" whole of Austria I imagine is also very angry for having been given such a bad name and being held responsible for his evilness. "
They deserve it, how evil can they all be? A renter in the Shitzl house was quoted as saying that he knew E. was being raped, but he didn't want to be evicted so he didn't say anything. And I guess he forgot after he moved out.
The social workers swallowed the cult story lock, stock and barrel -no one bothered to look for E. even after babies showed up every year on the doorstep with dictated notes.
Shitzl was allowed adopt/foster even with a prior rape conviction, which he served a whole year for. And now we're hearing that they can't prove any current rape charges because of "lack of forensic evidence." What are the six kids?
Eurotrash, pure Eurotrash, that whole country.
245 - Go Figure
One more thing, Rosemarie wins the Goober Eurotrash Dumbass of the Century Award.
246 - lunchlady
Herr Fritzl is reading multiple newspapers to catch all his coverage, and is getting attentive medical care for his various complaints, even asking for anti-aging cream for his ugly old pruneface. Maybe he wants to look more attractive for the other inmates.
Go Figure: I agree with you that it takes a lot of looking the other way and
247 - lunchlady
oops, I meant to finish my post before I published...
What I wanted to say is that I agree that it takes a lot of looking the other way and giving someone like Fritzl the benefit of the doubt for something like this to happen. He was very crafty and arrogant etc, but there are numerous missed opportunities to have discovered the crime before Elizabeth finally managed to rescue herself and her children.
Things have only gradually and mostly recently improved for women and children in America, with plenty of lapses still. Plenty of men still think they should be able to abuse women and children if they want to, and plenty of people feel bad taking them to task for bad behavior.
248 - survivor
Hi, so glad you have this site about the fritzls! I want to inform you and your readers that my ex-husband sexually abused my children. I found out when they were 2 and a half. Maybe Rosemary knew maybe she didn't, we may never know. I need to tell you and your readers I did not have a clue until my 2 and a half year old told my mother then told me also. No, I was not in denial I was and still am to this day "the forgotten victim" I was only 22 when I found out. I was lambasted, hit over the head, slammed into a brick wall at 150 miles an hour, when I found out. I did not know. I feel re- victimized by you saying you have done therapy for 20 years and never came across a mom who didn't know. I didn't know until the childrens disclosures. I know some moms do and for what ever screwed up dynamic that they have going on, can't or won't do anything about it. by I didn't even have a inkling of what was going on. I know other mom's who didn't know also. Like I mentioned before, I was and still am the forgotten victim. He messed them up with all his threats and emotional abusives and all the other deep dynamics he put on them and I had to deal with thier low self esteem, anger issues, inability to have success in life. Poor grades in school, although they were treated by a child psychologist who specialized in incest and who diagnosed them as "gifted" please please don't make the mistake of thinking because you have never come across a mom who didn't know, that they always do. My children are almost 24 now and we are still living the reprecussions of what he did. I don't live my life thinking about it every day and I have survived and moved on from it, We are not in the acute trauma of it because it has been a lifetime away now, but my children who are grown, sometimes still have issues from thier abuse and they are still struggling, yes, at those times we are all still victims. But please be aware some mom's really don't know.
Thanks cheers
249 - lunchlady
survivor: sounds like you did the right thing when you did find out. Think of the damage if you had refused to believe your daughter, maybe even telling her that she's a liar or has an overactive imagination. The good news in your story is that your daughter decided early on that she could get help and that she got it. I don't think Elizabeth did, and many other children don't.
250 - Mary
What did Rosemarie think about the wheel barrow of food that he brought down to the cellar. Did she not see it and think who they were for? why is the police so doubtless of her innocense. Where are all the older siblings of Elisabeth. Why is there no mention of them.Is this a typical Austrain way of doing things? Hushing up everything? I guess nobody will ever know why.
I feel that eventhough not all mothers know, "this mother" must have some knowledge at least and if so, this makes her evil too. One day the truth will be out and I will be very surprise if she turns out as innocent as ever.
251 - Kay
The world is watching this case. My main reason for following it is to join the outcry if justice isn't served to Josef. I hope Elizabeth and the family have a good advocate to represent their rights. Right now they are in no condition to make decisions that will affect them for years! I read that Kerstin and Stefan may choose not to testify. They are so emotionally scarred, it could cause them to relapse. Polzer, the Amstetten police chief feels they have mountains of evidence to be used against Josef. But, for how long? Just 10 years and then out again on "good behavior" as was what happened in his rape case years ago?
252 - Kelly
It's incredible that the "authorities" don't know that they can hang a manslaughter/murder or rape charges on that man because "so much time has passed and there's no evidence" except for Elisabeth's word. WHAT!?! A convicted sex offender, keeps his daughter imprisoned for 24 years and who has already admitted to raping her, threatened her and her kids with death by poisonous gas should they try to escape...and ya think he isn't capable of murdering a baby or rape!?! How frickin' stupid are those "authorities"!?! You have all the evidence you need!! Throw a rope around that b*stard, tie it to the back bumper of a car, and drag him through town til there's nothing left but the frayed ends.
Elisabeth...get your kids and get out of that country as fast as you can!!
253 - Deanna
the World is NOT watching this case most people I talk to about it dont want to talk about it cause its so hidious. I just find it fasinating because its so unbelieveable. This case is NOT even in the news anymore you have to go look for news on it anyway I dont know why of all things he would ask for anti aging cream what a dork lol. I really dont know what elisabeth and the kids will do they can never lead a normal life the only one that might is Felix. It was never clear if fritzl burned baby michael in the celler or the garden I hope it was not in front of elisabeth but with the air quality poor in the celler i dought it was in there ...
254 - Mary
I don't think its fair to condemn a whole nation for not knowing or being ignorant of what their neighbours do. Do we prefer to have suspicious neighbours gossiping and or reporting every little unusual event to the police. Should we encourage people to be suspicious of everyone. Should the Austrians in future become more concern about other peoples affairs just so that no more Fritzls or abuse cases would happen again? Should Elisabeth and family leave Austria because its evil and relocate say to the USA or the UK or Africa because its safer? How could we be so prejudice. Every country has its own law. If JF were in another country he would have got his head chopped off or be stoned to death. What about OJ Simpson who never paid for his crime. So lets give Austrians a chance and wait to see what will happen to JF at the end of the trial.
Not everything we read in the media is 100percent true. Some are made to stir the public as we know but we often forget and get all worked up and over react.
255 - Kay
I didn't agree with OJ's verdict and I'm a US citizen, but I wasn't on the jury and apparently the jury of his peers felt there wasn't enough evidence that would make him guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". He was found guilty in a civil trial. And yes, Deanna, the world is watching this case because it's one of the most hideous crimes anyone has ever heard of. I first heard of it on the Michael Savage radio program. Closing our eyes to it doesn't make it go away. And, how will poor Elisabeth or her kids ever make it go away? It doesn't matter what country it happened in, but it does matter what happens to Josef and his family. Let's hope that justice is finally meted out to this tyrant.
256 - Kelly
Have a look at Austria's laws and their idea of punishment for crimes such as rape and then come back and tell me again why I can't judge a country by its laws. Women and children there are 2nd class citizens. I'm sick and tired of being told how we need to be "fair" to criminals and the countries who all but encourage those filthy b*stards to do what they want by doling out lax punishment with no expectation of accountability for their actions.
The initial response from the Austrian chancellor was his concern that the Fritzl case would tarnish the image of Austria.
Yeah, Elisabeth...get out while you can!!
257 - Deanna
Kay, I dont know who you talk to but people have accused me jokingly about my fasination with this case. saying only perverts would even think about this not to mention bloging about it. Most people I know just shudder and change the subject. saying there is more importent news out there then just a perv story . I know that its not just a perv story its real for Eliabeth, but this story is not all over the news anymore like it or not I have to search for new coverage not until he is convited will it be main stream again
258 - Kay
Deanna, just google the name Fritzl and you will get 1,040,000 hits. A publisher would offer millions and millions to Elisabeth for a book deal; a rag would offer millions and millions to Elisabeth or any of her children raised in the bunker for just a picture. That's what we are discussing here. That Josef get justice and none of this money and that Elisabeth and her family get justice and as much money as they can out of this. The hospital in Amstetten can no longer afford to pay for security to protect the family, Deanna. I'm not sure why your friends would think people are perverts who are sensitive enough to care about these people and want to see a somewhat happy ending to the story for Elisabeth!
259 - Genma
did someone say their two year old told them about being abused? is it me but a two year being able to articulate sexual abuse? am I missing something? not to be mean but I am confused?
260 - Deanna
Kay first of all that is my point you have to google for news about this its not on fox etc. People are not talking about this anymore unless they are really interested in it. it not the type news people are talking about. Kay I dont know where you read that the hospital does not have the money to fund their care anymore I have not read that anywhere and I have read everything about this story. I do agree that she should get all the money she can and run I would.but she seems like she does not want the money I dont know she should sit down with a writer and tell her story and make a book but maybe its to soon and maybe she never will. and as for my friends thinking im a pervert I was kidding but my point was most people dont sit around thinking or reading about these kinds of stories...that was my point.
261 - Deanna
and maybe I worded that wrong you said not enough money to fund their security. my bad but same difference I have not read anywhere where they said that but in any case she needs to look at where she can get the bucks cause she will need her own money in the future.
262 - Kay
Deanna,
Many of the stories about the family are in the UK Telegraph....search for UK Telegraph and then if you want the most current articles, enter "newest date" in the dates fo relevance bar at the top. Yes, the town was having to pay for so much security for Elisabeth and the family that they have now been moved to a secret location. And, yes, the town of Amstetten feels they are being watched by the world and are getting bad press about it. I do not feel that you should judge a whole town or country by one incident, but apparently Austria is talking of toughening some of their laws on sex crimes as a result of this case as often happens in these cases in all countries. However, they did just release or recommending releasing the "angel of death" nurses aides on good behavior...they were murdering patients in nursing homes. Deanna, you will just have to look these stories up in the different papers around the world. Fox, of course, wouldn't be reporting much on this story constantly. I'm sure when the trial starts, they will have something on it. Don't you think so?
263 - Deanna
Kay, maybe you are missing my point...sighs... Im talking about the average person is not going to go look up these stories. Most people rely on fox, cnn, cbs etc. I for one google the latest articals on this story from all over the world. for instence the newest news I can get is that she testified aginst JF july 11 through the 18th I do read all the stuff. I was just saying that if you dont go look for it you will not hear about it is all im saying. does that make sence? unless you are really interested in this story the only way you are ging to get daily or weekly coverage is to go search thats all im saying.But she does need to look at how to rake in the bucks even if its hard for her cause she and the kids are gonna need it for the rest of their lives.
264 - Kay
I think I get your gist, Deanna. Peace, dear.
265 - Mary
Kelly, you cannot judge a country (its people) by its law because many European countries do not punish rapists and sex offenders as heavily as others do. They get maximun of 20-25yrs and they very rarely do serve the full term. Their prisons are not as over crowded as the US for example.They also have a lower crime rate than the US or other European countries.The women are not treated like 2nd class citizens they just are not as liberated as in the USA or most western countries. They are very conservative folks and women are not discriminated as the way you make them seem to be. This case has outraged a lot of people and I feel sorry that some people think its great to attack this country because of their past and Hitler and because the horror of this crime like as if it can only happen there in Austria. The monster Fritzl was a respectable guy in town and he knew people and was always well dressed and he and his family were respected. They had money too.Who would know or think otherwise of him. No doubt the police failed in many ways but I don't think they were corrupt and the Austrian law will change after all this. But they are not the only country that are lenient to sex offenders. Elisabeth and her family will stay put in that country because its their home. Austria is not an evil country period!
"women and children there are 2nd class citizens"
you must have gone FRITZLS! to make such a strong statement.
266 - Deanna
OMG elisabeth has tossed her mother out of her home new news GOOD FOR LIZ YOU GO GIRL
267 - Kay
Excerpt from an article called "Evil lives Here" by Linda Stasi in the New York Post about the Fritzl case and a Sunday night special:
"If the Fritzl story intrigues you, and if you've got the stomach for it, on Sunday night, MSNBC presents an hour-long special, "The Longest Night: Secrets of the Austrian Cellar." It fills in many details that have now become available before the monster's upcoming trial.
But make no mistake. What they do have will leave you shocked, disgusted and enraged at both Fritzl-the-fiend, and his clueless wife, who supposedly knew nothing about what was going on. (Hard to believe, since Fritzl had served time for rape, while they were not only married, but had already had four children! )
Correspondent Lester Holt and the Austrian producers who made this documentary didn't get an interview with the daughter, Elizabeth Fritzl. (She remains one of the most sought-after TV interviews in the world.)"
268 - Deanna
kay what channel will it be on>?
269 - Kay
I am in the Midwestern US and notice it is on MSNBC on Sunday night. Look at your TV guide (probably on cable) for it. Unfortunately, I don't have cable and was hoping one of the regular NBC networks would pick it up.
270 - Deanna
KAY, thanks I will hope to see it, I think that elsabeth finALLY FIGURED OUT THAT HER MOTHER NEW WHAT WAS GOING ON THE WHOLE TIME .....let the story play out
271 - Shae
I watched the MSNBC episode on this case and believe it or not, it was the first time I had heard of the story. I don't watch the news often. If it isn't posted on my Yahoo page, then I don't see it.
It was extremely heartbreaking to me. To know that such evil exist in the world is so heart renching. I can't begin to fathom what Elizabeth had to endure all of those years (my entire life). I hate to hear about children being mistreated, especially by their parents whether it's the mother or father. Parents are supposed to protect their children at all cost. I don't care if a spouse allows their mate to abuse them in any shape, fashion, or form. But if that mate raise their hands, mouth, or any part of their anatomy to your child/ren, then it's time to stand up and fight. (Notice that it's not gender specific. Abuse can come from either parent.)
I don't know if Rosemarie knew or not. Should she have known?? Yes. Should she have done something about it if she did?? Yes. Should she have stayed with an abusive man and a convicted rapist?? No. Should she have allowed her children to stay in that abusive situation?? No. But as I stated before, I don't knew if she knew or not.
What's important to me is (1) Elizabeth remained strong throughout this terrible ordeal, (2) Elizabeth and her children are finally free (no longer in the dungeon since they have no privacy), and (3) they were freed before something happened to Josef. My mom made the statement that she was glad that nothing happened to Josef before Elizabeth and the children were freed. If something had happened to Josef, would they have ever been found?? Then, it would have been a total tragedy.
I pray to God that Elizabeth and her children (and everyone involved) receive the help that they need, that they are able to live a semi-normal (if not normal) life, that they adjust to this new world, and that foremost they find happiness and peace.
I've enjoyed reading all of the previous posts (there was a lot to catch up on) but we most remember the victims in this story: Elizabeth and her children. We may never know the truth about Rosemarie. Let's focus some of this energy on prayer for things to turn out right for Elizabeth and her family.
Thanks for reading.
272 - Tabitha
I don't believe the mother knew. They checked for DNA evidence in the basement and only found the fathers. The basement was built and soundproofed by the father, who was an engineer. And there were 8 locked doors, that someone would have to go through before getting to the area that Elisabeth was being kept in.
And he made elisabeth write letters saying she was living with a cult, and that she was happy.
So why would her mother continue looking for her?
And why would someone assume people were being kept in the basement, if they heard strange knockings? Most assume some animal is in there or old pipes. My house knocks all the time, and I don't assume someone is being kept locked in my basement.
It's extremely easy to make accusations in hindsight.
The mother had 7 other children to look after, which doesn't make you the most observant person. And the father taking food somewhere in a wheelbarrow, doesn't make a person automatically assume, he's taking it down to some hidden family in the basement.
This is a tragic situation, and my heart goes out to elisabeth, her children and her mother.
273 - Deanna
tabitha, the mother was not in the celler no. However she had to have known you dont hide something like that for a feaking 24 years....there was no dna in the celler cause she was not there she was told never to go down to the celler> WHY NOT? when he was on vacation she would not get curious why she was never permitted to be down there? all those nights he would not sleep up stairs? all those kids showing up? and he had to have known he was raping her before the lock up COME ON .She might have been so scared to have gone aginst him thats why she let it happen I dont know but she had to have known maybe he threatened to kill her maybe after she wanted to turn him in she though wait I knew and could go to jail too. there is alot involved there but I do in my heart of hearts believe she knew.
274 - Judy
I wonder how the 3 children that were raised upstairs are doing, especially now that Elizabeth has tossed her Mom out. Elizabeth's mother was really the only Mother that these 3 kids knew. It must be very difficult on them.
I don't understand why they just don't come out in the open and introduce themselves to the world and get on with living. As it is now they are still prisioners but instead of being underground they are above ground. I don't understand why they are not encouraged to come out, surely it would be best for the children.
275 - Tiina
"I don't understand why they are not encouraged to come out, surely it would be best for the children."
I disagree. It surely would not be the best for the children. Would you like to be identified as an incest child yourself? This is a major crime that holds such an interest that they would not have ever normal life anywhere. The trial will be in the end of the year and the media circus will start again. If they get new identities, they will have a better chance for a normal life. But that's just my opion.