Sexual abuse, sexual tyranny, and sadism in Austria.
Daily we are bombarded by news of horrible events. Technology provides continuous fodder for our curiosity, and many of us are both drawn to and repelled by what is presented on our computer or plasma screens.…
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— go to most recent comments76 - anakris
Just as in every family the abusive family members each have their designated roles. One is the abuser, another the victim, and still others are the enablers. Fritzl's wife was undoubtedly the co-dependent enabler in this family. For one thing knowing her husband's enormous sex drive where did she think he was getting sex from. Did she think he was celibate after sex was eliminated from their relationship for the past 20 years. Or did she assume he was just seeing prostitutes which he was 3x's a week. But any wife worth her salt aould have been curious about that one factor alone. Then when it did dawn on her that Elisabeth (faked by Fritzl)called the family's unlisted number should have caused her to become even more suspicious. Rosemarie appears to be a very naive and stupid woman who was more concerned about herself than she was about anyone else in her family. Good wives and mothers question the things that go on in their families and do not just take their husband's word for what things. I think the police should really question her and not just assume that she was an innocent housewife who knew nothing. The fact that her husband was a "tyrant" and abusive to her and the children should have raised a continual red flag in her mind as to why 2+2 wasn't adding up to 4.
77 - lunchlady
I think that given the cultural expectations in Austria of male and female roles it is unlikely that Rosemarie will be called to account for herself any further. I agree that Rosemarie should have thought harder about it all, I certainly would have, but I also would have not gotten together with Josef Fritzl and stayed together with him through thick and thin. Men like him don't deserve to be around women at all. This woman probably has very different ideas than I do about what she is able to do and what she is obligated to put up with. And subversive thoughts about White Male Power probably don't enter her head even now. I imagine or at least hope that she's good and mad at Josef, but might not yet be able to fathom how things got to be such a mess and how she could have helped make things turn out better. I wonder if the Catholic thing made divorce seem impossible even once she realized that she had married a vile sadistic bastard. She didn't manage to do anything about the physical abuse of the children, so she probably didn't feel she could do anything about the sexual abuse either, if she was ever consciously aware of it.
I'm not saying I don't think she should have done things differently. But I don't think she felt she could have done things differently.
But whatever Rosemarie's failings are or were, Josef is definitely the Big Bad Wolf in this ugly story.
78 - genma
Each day more and more is revealed about the Fritzl family except we have only heard but once from any other siblings. I find that odd. I have not read where they have visited their mom or sister except one time. Is it me or does anyone else find this strange? Again, I ask about the 37 year old brother who was still living at home with his parents? Is he being questioned? The more that is reveal shows how much more is hidden. I am even starting to wonder if the family may have suspected something was not right in the basement but did not realize it was a family member in the basement.
79 - Kay
Dr. Mitchell may correct me if I am wrong as I am in no way a professional...but in homes where mental illness or dysfunction is going on, the family puts up a wall and a cloak of secrecy and it is the "job" of the healthy members to give the family an appearance of normalcy. I believe many recovering alcoholic families in AA or Alanon will attest to this. Healing comes when the issues are faced and dealt with otherwise it just festers and gets worse as is this horrible case. It sounds like the family has been forced into this at the clinic where they are now. Not sure?
80 - Kay
One other thing I wanted to say is that the "thrill" of this to Josef seems to have been keeping secrets from the world and Rosemarie especially. What is this? I am curious why he would go to such great lengths to pull dirty tricks behind Rosemarie's back as it seems he did!
81 - lunchlady
The thrill is at least partly the thrill of breaking taboos and getting away with it. Breaking the rules and avoiding punishment is an adolescent type of thrill which some people never stop wanting to get. Josef apparently found happiness in an extreme form of domestic violence, as well as violence against women outside the home. It was apparently directly tied to his sexual urges- a classic sort of perversion and hard to extinguish because the sexual urges renew themselves quickly and the pervert needs another dose again and again. That's why pedophiles are so hard to treat effectively. They can only try to control their urges, not change the nature of them. And eventually they often lose control, or that's how they justify reoffending.
I read somewhere that Josef made Rosemarie watch him having intercourse with younger women at a sex club, apparently to humiliate her about being old and fat. I think he enjoyed her knowing that he had sex with prostitutes and elsewhere, but perhaps he felt that if Rosemarie was forced to Officially Know about the dungeon then even she would have to Do Something About It and report him. I don't know why she would put up with her husband going to prostitutes- I would consider that more than adequate grounds for the Big Goodbye, even if I wasn't being put at risk for disease transmission.
82 - Juliann Mitchell
Hi Kay,
I think you are right on the money with your comments about the family presenting a guise of normalcy to the world.
My family had a severely mentally ill grandmother who lived with us off and on for years while I was growing up. I can remember my mother asking me not to saying anything at school or to my friends about my grandmother, she told me people wouldnt understand. Which was true as things were pretty crazy at our house. I know why she asked that of me, and she and I have talked about it since then on a number of different occasions. My mother did the best she could with what she had to deal with.
However, one doesnt need to do too much investigating to determine that dysfunctional families have carefully constructed houses of cards and the images presented to the world are fragile at best. Often what is going on at home is revealed in children's non-verbal behaviors, play behaviors, and/or their drawings.
It's like the elephant sitting in the middle of the living room floor that no-one talks about, everyone walks around, but every single person in the family knows the elephant is there. They just don't know what to do about it and pray that one day the elephant will just disappear and life will go on as usual.
There are still so many unanswered questions about the Fritzl's perhaps we will all learn more in the coming weeks and months. I suspect that Elizabeth is still trying to take care of and protect her mother. It seems that was a role she assumed at an early age.
83 - Helen
Hmm, I somewhat do not agree with the discourse that is being constructed here. It contains grandiose generalising statements that focus blame in all inappropriate directions.
Who is really to blame here? I'll tell you, it is primarily the perpetrator and secondarily, it is people like you.
Continually postulating that mothers of sexualy abused children do know what their partners are doing is harmful. How do you know what Rosemarie knew? Are you all mind readers?
It is dialogues like this that shut down women in shame and blame them. And, if Rosemarie did at any time have a glimmer of any suspicion at all, then is it this sort of ignorance that is to blame for women's silence, not the individual.
Hence, you are responsible because you make silence possible.
84 - Katrina
To Helen: your message is very disturbing and your attitude very rude!
I let Dr. Mitchell to give you the right answer !
85 - Helen
Sorry to offend you Karina, but I just find ignorance very disturbing. This is my exact issue - Aren't we forgetting who is really at fault here? This sort of article reinforces myths, opinions, stereotypes and discourses with no evidence. It is a very old game of 'mother blame'.
Yes I have a bee in my bonnet. No I am not a partner of a child sexual offender and never have been as far as I know. I am in strong agreeance with Carlita above - maybe a response is required to this post too.
86 - Juliann Mitchell
Hi Everyone,
Please remember this article was written as an Opinion piece. The Fritzl's have struck a nerve with many of us. I would like to think we can all respect one another's opinions, as that is what our responses are, just opinions. None of us know all the facts and probably never will. Anything written is speculative at best and based on our own perceptions and some information from the media.
Please know that I am pro-human being. This is not a gender issue for me. Both men and women sexually abuse children and both men and women are survivors of abuse. It would not surprise me at all if both Josef and Rosemarie were abused as children. As I stated in the original article, knowing about something and feeling empowered enough to act on it are two totally different phenomen.
I've had three books published. The first one was about understanding and preventing child sexual abuse ( Rape Of The Innocent:Understand and Preventing Child Sexual Abuse, the second was about females who sexually abuse female (From Victims To Survivors: Reclaimed Voices Of Females Sexually Abused In Childhood By Females), and the third was about grief and crises (The Dynamics Of Crisis Intervention: Loss As The Common Denominator). A part of my professional work has been with many courageous survivors,both men and women who were physically, emotionally, and sexually abused as chidren. Their strength and resiliency has been inspiring.
At times it seems this has become a right/wrong, good/bad situation. Josef was wrong and bad, Elizabeth most certainly was good and right. But the situation involving RoseMarie is much more complicated. Where does she fit in this paradigm? Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that occurs when something the person believes to be true is not. When new information is provided and is in conflict with what the person believes to be true then a state of cognitive dissonance is created. It is very uncomfortable psychologically for the person in this state. Because it creates a sense of internal conflict a person either blocks out the new information or begins to accept and assimilate the new data and change their beliefs or perceptions. This can be quite challenging for the person experiencing cognitive dissonance. This may explain in part what happened with Rosemarie.
In terms of why the mental health professionals immediately reunited her and her children with her mother, I dont know the answer to this. Again, without more information it is hard to second guess what they were thinking. What I think is important is that Elizabeth's needs and wishes be respected and honored. This is a woman who has survived unimaginable horrors and abuse.
87 - lunchlady
Excellent post, Juliann. I agree with everything you said.
This case is interesting because it illustrates lots of things about a family being controlled by a sadist. It also illustrates how the outside world can fail to do anything to help.
88 - joanne
I have read through the posts here and all is very interesting, particularly the reminder from Juliann that all of this is just opinion. Then why is there a need to justify whose opinion is more credible through restating a publication list. I too have a PhD that focused on child molestation, well published and have worked in child sexual abuse with primary victim's family members. Cognitive dissonance is one explanation, but it is possible that it is not THE explanation. I honour you for careful use of non-committal language in this response.
89 - Anonymous Please
OMG, I have cognitive dissonance disorder!
90 - Terry
Great article, Dr Mitchell! It's good to find a forum like this, where most comments are thoughtful and relevant. I’ve enjoyed reading your responses.
It's an interesting and controversial topic, that of Rosemary's role/involvement in her daughter’s 24 year nightmare.
I am, personally, of the view that no mother could let something like that happen under her nose without her (consciously or not) knowing about it. I agree with the comments that, dysfunctional families have a way of hiding secrets from the outside world in order to appear “normal”. I grew up in a family where child physical and emotional (rather than sexual) abuse was our everyday reality.
My father was a violent man, who hit our mother at the slightest provocation. As we grew older, the children became the target of his rage. The oldest children became protective of mum, as she wouldn’t protect herself. My brothers would risk a beating by shielding Mum from her attacker; they would have been only nine or ten years old.
By the time I was a teenager, my younger siblings were taking the brunt of the abuse, and the rest of the family (myself included) was relieved.
I left home at the earliest possible opportunity, to marry young and continue the cycle of abuse.
I’ve never gotten over the guilt of allowing my siblings to suffer, so I didn’t have to anymore. Even though I realize that it wasn’t my role to protect them, because that should have been our parent’s role. It was almost as if, in many ways, I was forced onto the parent role because our father was the abuser, and our mother was merely a victim and on the same level as her children.
Having said that, I don’t understand how a mother could allow any kind of abuse to be inflicted upon her children. I say that because, even though I come from a dysfunctional family, even though, I allowed my husband to abuse ME, not for one second did I tolerate our children being abused by him in any way.
Once you are a mother, you live to protect your children. They become your number one priority, and being selfish is out of the question. Or is it?
91 - Tiina
I don't find Dr Mitchell's opinions or those of others here generalising or judgmental. Most of us, I guess, wonder how this could happen, how Josed Fritzl was able to get away with his crime so long.
I personally know something about "not wanting to know". I used to have a sadistic boyfriend. He wasn't violent at the beginning, but all the signs were there. In hindsight, I can trace back in my memory all those things that I somehow chose to ignore back then, things he said, the way he talked about other people, how he behaved towards me, etc.
In one of my previous comments I was upset that Rosemarie wrote in the poster that she misses her freedom. The reason that I was so upset was that I was worried how that kind of expressions of sentiments affect Elisabeth. For some odd reason, I feel very protective her. As Dr. Mitchell said, she has survived unimaginable horrors and abuse, and respecting her needs is the most important thing now.
92 - Kay
Dr. Mitchell,
I just read in the news that the entire family (including the siblings who we had not heard much about before) is now going to get new identities and not do interviews. The doctors feel that they are being imprisoned again due to the press. I have mixed emotions as to whether this is the best route to take....was wondering what your professional take is on this latest development. And by the way, thank you so much for this site. I find it so informative and helpful in dealing with this awful case.
93 - Juliann Mitchell
Anonymous,
I certainly have experienced cognitive dissonance repeatedly. But now at least we know what label to give it. :-)
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Juliann
94 - Juliann Mitchell
Terry,
Thank you so much for sharing about your experiences growing up and as an adult. I am so sorry for all that you have been through and it sounds as if it was so much.
It might be that you could not have protected your younger siblings no matter what. It seems as if all of you suffered a great deal.
Please know I wish you health, happiness, and continued healing.
Juliann
95 - Juliann Mitchell
Joanne,
Thank you for your comments. I would enjoy reading what you have had published on abuse where could I find the info?
Yes the phenomenon of "cognitive dissonance" is just me presenting an idea for what perhaps was taking place in the Fritzl home. Without interviewing the family members anything I say is specualtive at best.
Juliann
96 - Juliann Mitchell
Kay,
I am so glad you are here with all of us as we try to share and make sense of this horrible situation.
We have Eric Olsen to thank for creating Blogcritics. Thanks Eric!
As for giving the Fritzl family members new identities I can understand the need to do this. I also hope they continue to give them counseling as I dont think a new identity is simply enough. Having a new name and livig in a new community does not address the traumas the family members have experienced for decades. To have to learn to be "someone else" and integrate all that process entails will present many, many challenges for the Fritzl's.
There are no easy solutions to this situation. It is indeed a travesty.
97 - lunchlady
I read somewhere that the Austrian government has already set some sort of limit on what they will provide for the family, and this contributes to the movement towards suing Josef for any assets he has that aren't already mortgaged away. Not sure where that will leave Rosemarie, but Josef has created his own population explosion so I would imagine her other children would keep her off the street at least. But since all Elizabeth's siblings also were physically and emotionally abused they may not be all that keen on helping Mom and Elizabeth and her kids out- I sure they have their own issues and their own families.
As things die down and the new identities are put into place I fear that Elizabeth and her kids will end up being separated from the rest of the family again. All the non-dungeon people want to get back into the world and start trying to salvage something of their old lives. That might be challenging, which will give them more reason to not interact much with Elizabeth and the other 3 dungeon people.
I appreciate the non black-and-white nature of this discussion- keep up the good work Juliann, and everyone else.
98 - Juliann Mitchell
Hi Lunchlady,
You make some excellen points! Thank you for your very well thought out comments.
I agree, the rest of the family could distance themselves from ELizabeth and her three children who lived with her in the dungeon.
There could be all kinds of things going on psychologically in the siblings and the children that Rosemarie and Josef raised--guilt, anger, resentment, relief, etc. Elizabeth's siblings feelings most likely are a mixed bag-- some positive, some negative.
If everyone has to assume new identities that can be very challenging. They will have to leave their friends, jobs, and old life behind. Not an easy thing to do especially if onr liked their old life.
Also in these circumstances it is not uncommon for someone in the family to be "scapegoated." In other words the scapegoat is blamed for all the rotten stuff that has happened and continues to happen in the family, i.e. change identities,move away, negative publicity, etc. I hope it is Josef but am not totally convinced it will be him.
Once again it could be Elizabeth and her three children who suffer are victimized and scapegoated. She too may have tremendous guilt for her siblings having to assume new lives. I sincerely hope that she and everyone else are getting the therapy that they need. Treatment for this family should be long-term. Helping someone put a life together who has been abused since the age of 11 and was held captive for 24 years is an incredible undertaking for Eliazabeth, her children and the professionals who are working with them. Elizabeth's basic rights as a human being have been violated for more than half of her life and all of her adult life and it was by her father. My since hope is there is a very experienced team of trauma professionals who are working with the family. It is a daunting task because there are so many facets to this family and so many family members to work with.
99 - Kellyd
Hello everybody,
I have been following this story for few weeks now. A very disturbing one !
In searching for news about it I found this great article and I saved it in my Favorites so I can go back and be in touch with your comments.
Thank you Dr. Mitchell for giving us the opportunity to express our feelings on this site and also thank you for your time to answer our questions.
I would like to say that I do not like Rosemarie and I had this feeling about her from the very beginning. It is just my intuition !
She was not a good mother at all at least with Elizabeth ! It is hard for me to believe that she did not feel that something bothered her girl !She was first raped when she was 11 !!!!!
Why did she go in vacations with the other kids while Elizabeth had to stay home with Joseph ? How could she accept that ?
Yes, I know , we can find excuses, etc....
I would like to ask you, Dr. Mitchell, what do you think about the possibility, for Elizabeth, of giving an interview ?
I am wondering if they asked her if she agreed with that........ or again someone else has to decide in her place !
Do you think that it can hurt her to talk about her ordeal ? WE all know that when you have a "problem" it makes easier if you talk about it as it takes away the "pressure".
On the other hand I consider that giving an interview will help her to be HERSELF, to move on !
Even if they change the names they will be tracked as everybody knows them/the story.
I wish we could do something to help her !
Ther are so many people with huge influence-(e.g. Arnold Schwartzeneger)who can DO something for Elizabeth ! We all have a lot to learn from this extraordinary woman !!!!!
100 - Jodie
I am just finding this all so sad.
Isn't it interesting that the forum is predominantly a bunch of women and, that bunch of women are predominantly casting verbal attacks at Rosemarie, another woman.
Surely in today's day and age, we should have realised that Josef is to blame here. Surely, we should not be using Rosemarie as a scapegoat to shift the attention away from him.
Think about it for a moment.....
101 - Juliann Mitchell
Hi Kellyd,
So glad you found this website too! Welcome!
Thank you for your thoughts and comments.
In terms of Elizabeth giving an interview I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon. She and her children have been through so much. Probably right now it would be in her best interests not to talk about her ordeal to the media or the public. These interviews can be brutal and sometimes talking about what has taken place especially in a pressurized situation can trigger flashbacks, etc. I would think (again, my opinion) that she has PSTD (post traumatic stress disorder).
Yes I agree that it can be healing to talk about one's experiences and maybe at some point in time she may do so, but right now I think she is probably trying to come to grips with everything that has taken place. This woman and her children have been severely traumatized. Elizabeth is a survivor and has demonstrated great strength but she and her children have a long road ahead of them.
What does everyone else think?
By the way everyone please call me Juliann, I've had this name my whole life-- much longer than I've been Dr. Mitchell.
Juliann
102 - Juliann Mitchell
Hi Jodie,
Thank you for your comments and welcome to you too!
I think it is clear that Josef is a sadistic, narcicisstic, sociopahic individual. He commited heinous, atrocious acts against his daughter and the children they had together.
With Rosemarie the issues are not quite so clear cut. Josef is bad, Elizabeth is good, but Rosemarie seems to be in the gray area and there are thousands of shades of gray in life. Did she know about the abuse, did she not know? If she knew about the abuse why didnt she intervene, why did she stay, etc. We will probably never know what is the truth--what did Rosemarie really know or not know?
Again I don't see this as a gender issue. It is a human issue. I have worked with families where the mothers were the tryants and the abusers of the children and the fathers too. In these situations the fathers did not intervene on behalf of the children or themselves but ignored everything as a way of surviving in the family systems.
I think it is positive that we can share our thoughts and express our perceptions and agree to disagree.
Juliann
103 - Tiina
Dear Juliann and others,
Josef is the biggest villain here, no doubt about that. Still, I wonder about some things I read. A family friend said in an interview that Josef favoured some of children over the others. According to her, Elisabeth wasn't one of Josef favourites. The woman had asked Rosemarie why Josef liked some children more than others and Rosemarie has answered that she didn't know. The man obviously treated the children differently. Some got more beatings than the others. A school-friend of Elisabeth claimed that Josef used his fists beating the children, which means that beatings were brutal.
If it is true what those people said, Rosemarie didn't stand up to her husband when he treated some of the kids worse than others and not even when he brutally beat them. You could always argue that she didn't realise that Elisabeth was sexually abused, but she saw how he violated his children other ways and still let it go on.
Elisabeth's story is heart-breaking in many ways, but it seems that she got the sort end of the stick very early in her childhood. It must been hurtful to little Elisabeth that her Father didn't like her as much as others.
104 - Stella
I agree with your assessment Juliann regarding Elizabeth giving an interview. An interview, at this early stage would probably lead to further trauma. In addition, I suspect it would actually increase the media attention rather than satisfy it. If further down the track Elizabeth ever felt like telling her story anonomously; it may be that this would be empowering for her. I think the market would always be there for her story!
I just want to give full marks to the health care professionals who are looking after her. Many people have been criticised over this case, some undoubtedly deservedly so; however from the perceptive and resolute doctor who broke this case, through to those who are doing a terrific job of shielding Elizabeth and family from the media and guiding their decisions regarding issues such as pressure for interviews, I hold in high regard.
I think it's difficult for us to assess Rosmarie without knowing a lot more about her. It's easier to assess and come to conclusions about Fritzl. I think she lived in an extreme situation where the odds were completely stacked against her in terms of being able to act in any way contrary to the dictates and will of her husband.
105 - Stella
Actually Tiina, I don't know that Elizabeth would have been hurt that Fritzl appeared to like the other children more than her. An early photo of Elizabeth shows a defiant look. I imagine she was strong and picked up at a very early age that all was not alright with her Father and her attitude towards him would have been defiant. I think Fritzl would have picked up on her defiant streak and been determined to break it. I imagine he was attracted by her strength, and at the same time her dislike and desire to get away from him made him want to dominate her. I only wish her early attempts to flee from home had been successful.
106 - Kellyd
Thank you, Juliann !
I've just read this.
107 - Christopher Rose
Juliann, if you stick an http:// at the beginning of the link to your website in the little box immediately above the comments box, it will then make a working link back to your site, which it isn't doing right now. This will help people to find your site.
Thanks,
Christopher Rose
Blogcritics Comments Editor
108 - Juliann Mitchell, PhD
Christopher,
Thank you so much for your suggestions. I did make the correction and the problem has been resolved
Juliann
109 - Kay
I just saw an article in the paper that "60 Minutes" is going to have a documentary on Elisabeth Fritzl on their Sunday, June 1 show. Her lawyer, Mr. Herbst, is going to be on the show.
110 - Ruvy
I'm sorry if I seem a bit cold in these comments:
I'm not surprised at all by what happened to these unfortunate women, and I'm not surprised at all that the police and officials responsible for public order should close their eyes for decades.
The Austrians have brought us racism (the philosophy the Nazis followed so assiduously was developed in Austria, and emerged full grown in Germany after the international markets collapsed); they brought us the scum who carried out that racism in a holocaust of murder; they brought us the "Ve don't see nuttin' und follow orders" philosophy, the mantra of those convicted at Nürnberg. Yup, they have brought us all these wonderful things - given that, that this Josef Fritz got away with the stuff he did is not surprise at all.
Let's all have some delicious Austrian chocolate and Kaffe mit Schlag to go with all of this, ja?
111 - lunchlady
Hi Ruvy: I tried to post the link to an opinion piece from the Telegraph from 2-3 weeks ago that has the same general opinion of Austria as yourself but it triggered the spam filter for some reason.
I have been to Austria 3 times and I found it rather grim and low on fun, in spite of the picturesqueness and the beer. I hated the gory religious art and the officiousness of anyone who dealt with the public and the Verboten signs everywhere.
112 - genma
There were reports that the Fritzl's story would be on 60 Minutes. Was this reported wrong?
113 - Juliann Mitchell, PhD
Hi Genma,
I checked out 60 Minutes also but nothing related to the Fritzl's.
Juliann
114 - Kellyd
Hello everybody,
Here is the link for 60 Minutes.
It is an Australian channel-initially I thought that was 0n 60 min in USA.
To be honest with you the documentary was very very shallow...
115 - Terry
Re: Tiina's comments: I've been following this story closely and also feel very protective towards Elisabeth and her children.
I think Stella hit the nail in the head whith her comments:
"Elizabeth shows a defiant look. I imagine she was strong and picked up at a very early age that all was not alright with her Father and her attitude towards him would have been defiant. I think Fritzl would have picked up on her defiant streak and been determined to break it. I imagine he was attracted by her strength, and at the same time her dislike and desire to get away from him made him want to dominate her"
I have this thought in the back of my mind, that Fritzl might have wanted to dominate his mother when he was a young man, but couldn't. Is it possible that Elisabeth reminded him of his own mother, who was a strong woman? Am I getting in Freud territory here?
116 - lunchlady
I think Freudian territory is appropriate here. Kampusch says that her captor also idolized his mother, and compared Kampusch to his mother. Kampusch of course came up short.
Raising boys is tricky. If you aren't tough enough they think they can walk on women with impunity and do nothing around the house. If you are too tough they take their rage out on other women who come too close. But maybe its the Y chromosome that's the problem. Some men seem to turn into predators and violators for no apparent reason.
117 - Marcie
To Terry,
You got the Freud thing all mixed up - go read a bit more.
118 - Terry
Marcie
May I suggest you do some reading yourself: the link to the comment policy is provided just below.
I appreciate that you disagree with what I think, and that's fine, but there's no need for you to post such an arrogant comment.
Cheers
119 - Anna
What an interesting site - there is almost a hysteria here, built on an obsession about this case. What a horrible man this Josef is and how sad it is that Elizabeth has had her life destroyed, as if HE let her have much of a life in the first place. And, how interesting that so many are are targeting Rosemarie with hatred when we dont even know anything about her.
120 - genma
Kellyd,
Thanks for the link. No depth. Nothing new. You were right. We are all commenting on this from different perspectives. It is good hearing so many share their opinions. This story is powerful.
Juliann,
Thank you for giving us something to think about so deeply.
Genma
121 - Deanie
Rosemarie Fritzl was living in their guest house when Josef starting raping their daughter in 1977. She lived in the guest house from 1973 to 1982, 9 years, because Josef beat and bullied her. Josef insisted on the children continuing to live with him during those years. And it was during those years that Josef started building the cellar prison. So both the start of incest and the dungeon construction went on while Rosemarie was away.
I still think the mother should have known, but apparently Elisabeth never told her when she visited her mom.
Regarding giving a TV interview I think it would be best to prepare well for it, keep it solely under Elisabeth's control, and then go ahead and do it. I don't think changing identity and hiding and pretending to be someone else is healthy in the long run. It's far better to be honest and have things out in the open. She will receive a lot of sympathy when people can attach a name to a face. She's clearly not ready but I think it would be a good thing to do eventually.
Maybe she's reluctant to take $ for interviews because she always had to sell her own body just to keep her family from starving or being murdered outright. But this Austrian way of "looking the other way" and extreme privacy and outright denial of what's going on is definitely not healthy. I hope Elisabeth can break free from that kind of thinking.
122 - lunchlady
Anna: I'm a little confused by your mixture of compliments and censure. Rosemarie's role is interesting, even if her exact role is unclear- I don't think anyone has expressed hatred for her, just disbelief that she was totally clueless, or dismay that she didn't do anything if she did know something. I find it more interesting that few if any men are arriving to say anything, not that it is being considered that Rosemarie was not totally in the dark and virtuous.
Female circumcision is performed by women and is being kept in place as a requirement for virtue partially by women. Sexual abuse of children probably also has some complicity by women and mothers. This is not a new idea.
Leaving your children with a husband you know to be abusive seems like bad judgement. It would imagine that I would sever relations with such a husband and try to also end such a man's custody/visitation rights, but Austria may even now be a place that doesn't recognize such requests. I hope Rosemarie acted as she did from a sense of helplessness, not self-protection at the expense of her children.
123 - Kay
I am not sure how much Freud is accepted in the psychiatric field in today's world. One question for Juliann. It is wonderful to come to this website and have professionals give us some sound insight into this awful case. Another question for Juliann is why many of us have been so personally affected by this story. It is not easy to cope with this when we feel helpless to do anything for Elisabeth. I think that's why we want to see her triumph over this in some way like Natasha has. Natasha has used her experience to help others. A beautiful woman inside and out. I hear horrible stories in the news quite often in the USA. This incites extreme sadness in some that hear and extreme and violent thoughts of justice against the perpetrator (spelling?) in other hearers. In the end, the act has been committed and we weren't there to help in some way. How could we have helped? The last one that bothered me as much as this was when Foster parents wrapped a 3 year foster child in the closet in a blanket in the dead of summer and left for a family reunion for the weekend. He was dead when they returned. Marcus Fiesel was the child's name if one wanted to search on the computer for the case. He was three and never had a chance in life due to his caregivers. Both Foster parents are in prison for life. I feel quite helpless and dumbfounded when I hear of these cases and marvel at what would possess a person to be this selfish and merciless! We all have thoughts and get angry at relatives. But, most of us would never carry out such a horrendous, premeditated crime. Long story short...what possesses the criminal mind...what goes wrong when a father does this to his daughter or a parent to their baby? There may be no absolute answer!
124 - bloggergirl
The point that concerns me most in recent reports is that therapists see it fit to have Elisabeth in 'family therapy' with her mother. Does this not perpetuate the dysfuntion and ignore the inexcusable 'blind eye' that woman turned towards her daughter for 24 years?
125 - Kay
Bloggergirl,
Doesn't someone have a responsibility to help reconnect Elisabeth with her mother, physically and emotionally, if that is what Elisabeth might want? I would expect that a therapist would not force either of them into 'family therapy' if they did not want some form of future relationship.