Sexual abuse, sexual tyranny, and sadism in Austria.
Daily we are bombarded by news of horrible events. Technology provides continuous fodder for our curiosity, and many of us are both drawn to and repelled by what is presented on our computer or plasma screens.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Kelly
At this time, I'm also still inclined to believe that the mother didn't know of Elisabeth's sexual abuse when it began. And I really appreciate Anonymous Please's post which clarify's why I feel the mother may not have known.
From what I've read, the entire family, was terrorized by that "man", though it isn't exactly clear (apart from what he's done to Elisabeth)just how he had terrorized them. I assume his control was aggressive, violent and frightening enough that Elisabeth's own unique suffering was missed by the other terrified family members. I also understand that some pedophiles will choose a single child to abuse and ignore the other children in a family, and perhaps this was the case with Elisabeth - that she was the only one being raped? I'm not trying to defend the mother, but I don't believe we've heard enough of the "facts" just yet. I am, however, curious as to why no one outside the family had contacted police? So far, I've read about 2 people outside the family who knew that Elisabeth was being raped by her father. Did those people tell anyone? Tell their parents? A teacher? Anyone at all?
One last thing...the media is filled with items about the father, and very little about Elisabeth and her kids. He's become this glorified sick, pervert media superstar and god to all the other sick perverts in the world. I would rather that he be removed from the spotlight (and this planet, for that matter) and be replaced with something that will let us know how Elisabeth and the kids are doing. But in a way that respects her privacy, of course!
27 - vinitha
I am terribly shocked at what this father did to his child. As I think deeply on this tragedy I think Elisabeth has not helped her self when she could. What is the use of blaming the mother.
Why did Elisabeth not tell a soul from the time she was 11 to 18 about the abuse. She could have told the police when they brought her back after she ran away.Was there not even one good person she could trust within her family or outside her family? Is the whole of Austria so uncaring?
28 - vinitha
I fully agree with Kelly. We would like to see how Elisabeth and her children are doing rather than give the maniac father so much importance. I pray for their wellbeing ever since I became aware of them.
29 - Anonymous Please
Vinitha--
I cannot speak for what it must have been like for Elizabeth, but I can tell you that children who have been sexually abused by a family member can feel more helpless than you could ever imagine. They do not tell for many reasons.
Or, if they have told an authority figure and been rebuffed--and, yes, it happens--it is extremely unlikely that they will try to reach out again.
Trust is very much shattered for the abused child, and the child may fear that others in the family will not believe the child and that the abuse will continue unabated.
Then there is the very real scenario where a child believes that they have 'brought on' the abuse somehow, and the that the other members of the family will be repulsed by the child as well as (or instead of) the abuser. Or they fear that their only known security--the family unit (flawed as it is)-- will be torn apart because of their speaking out. Not a logical way of thinking, but children have a different way of processing things sometimes.
As Dr. Michele has said, some abusers use these fears as a tool to maintain power over the child.
I say, lay the blame where it undeniably belongs--with the abuser. And, everyone, please look around you with fresh eyes and look out for the little ones. My heart bleeds to think how many children are living with through this private hell right this minute, even as we sit and talk about it so calmly.
The flood of memories and emotions that this news story brings is something I am trying to deal with in a healthy way, and I thank you all for your patience with me.
30 - Icarus
I can believe the mother didn't know. Or, if she had any suspicion at all, went into very deep denial. I've read that Elisabeth completely submitted to her father after awhile, because she was so intimidated and fearful of him. Why wouldn't Rosemarie be the same? Completely and utterly fearful, submissive and in denial.
As for checking the basement, they couldn't even if they wanted to because it was sealed off with multiple doors and electronically coded devices.
31 - Cindy
I heartily agree that children who are victims of sexual assault and, in particular, incest often seek to protect their families while going through the actual abuse. There is often a desire to keep the family, or that which is familiar, intact. Disrupting that which hurts them is more of a threat than stopping the abuse. But I am not pointing fingers at the children. I am not even pointing fingers at Rosemarie Fritzl as a young wife and mother. I am looking at Rosemarie outside of this " after a daughter disappears out of thin air. I am seeing a woman who saw her husband do jail time for rape. I am seeing a woman who must have seen outside indications of behavior changes in a young Elizabeth. I am seeing a woman who knew Josef had a huge cellar and was not ever permitted entrance into that realm. He spent nights there. Hours and Nights there, and she was not even permitted to bring him coffee? According to a recent article, Rosemarie was seen in an Austrian brothel with her husband where she was forced to watch him perform on other woman. There is sexual depravity here, and whether Rosemarie was too victimized to say something or not, she knew her husband had a strong sexual problem. She knew Elizabeth ran away several times as a teen and had gotten into drinking. Why would Elizabeth disappeared to join a cult after writing letters to her friends telling them she’d be in touch shortly after she left? And how about the tenants who complained about high electric bills, food going missing out of their flats, and noises from underneath them? We cannot believe that Rosemarie didn’t get any news at all of those complaints. Josef the Electrician had an entire floor that was “off-limits” to every person in the house. Elizabeth’s abandoned children appear out of nowhere on their doorstop every few years with a note. Then there is the phone call that Josef felt compelled to make, pretending he was Elizabeth. Rosemarie expressed surprise that Elizabeth knew their new phone number. Why did Josef feel compelled to make the phone call in the first place, and specifically spoke to Rosemarie? My theory is that Rosemarie’s suspicion was growing, and Josef and he hoped to quiet that. Regardless, it still remains that all the therapy in the world will not give Elizabeth and her kids the prime of their lives back, and that not much can be done to punish a 73 year old man who. He’ll be dead in a few years anyway, and really " where is the justice in that?
32 - Karen
Sexual abuse in a family does not occur as an isolated act between the abuser and the victim. Most times, the abuser acts out because he has assessed the risk and has decided that the other members of the family will accommodate him-either consciously or unconsciously. Often, the wife and the other children in the family remain passive despite knowledge on some level of the abuse. The abused child becomes the family sacrifice- she suffers and the other family members will perhaps escape the worst of the abuse.
I've read most of the articles on the Fritzl case and it seems to me that Elisabeth's mother and siblings allowed her to absorb the worst of it from Joseph Fritzl. Apparently, Elisabeth was sacrificed for the general benefit of the others.
A therapist I know once described such situations as a system (a sick and destructive system, yes) that is "working" for the family. They have arrived at an arrangement which allows the abuser a designated victim. They will fight to maintain the system because it works for them.If the incest is disclosed, they usually claim ignorance of the facts in order to maintain deniability.
33 - Stephanie
I can't stop thinking about this woman and her children and how they are doing right now. I am overcome with curiosity as to how they survived so many years in this condition. I wonder what goes through their minds now that they are free and in the "real" world. The world one 5 year old believes to be Heaven. The world which allowed Elizabeth to be abused the way she had been. I can't stop wondering if their "freedom" is as great to them as it is to us. I'm sure that Elizabeth is probably in her own form of denial. Not wanting to believe that her mother might have known what was happening to her, and did nothing to save her. She already must deal with the evil of her own father. Should we expect her to cope with an evil mother as well ? Elizabeth Fritzl needs to believe that if somebody had known...they WOULD have helped. If anybody had known...they would have saved them. Their mother, their siblings, the tenants. How do you think that poor girl survived as long as she did ? Not by giving up on the hope that one day somebody WOULD realize she was in there...and they would help. I find myself completely uninterested in why a man would do this to his own daughter...what causes a person to be so cruel...I'm not interested in what he did on holidays in Thailand...what his wife might have suspected or might have known. It no longer seems to matter. These little tidbits aren't going to help or change the life that Elizabeth and her children must live.
What they need is physical, medical, emotional and financial support by all means possible. They need to be allowed to heal. And allowed to live in peace. I believe it is human nature to be curious and feel the need to know. We all want to know as much as possible about how they lived in that environment. We want to know about their recovery. And five years from now we will want to know how they have adjusted. No doubt we are all praying that her sick daughter lives to enjoy her freedom as well.
At this very moment though...I imagine in my own thoughts... that they are not comfortable in "our" world. And they secretly yearn to be in the only place they have known for so many years. And this is what pains me. From the deepest corner of my heart. This is the reality of what this man has done to his family.
We have no choice but to wait for Elizabeth Fritzl to tell us otherwise. She probably has no idea the impact her survival has had on the world.
I would love one day to tell her the impact she has had on MY life.
34 - Prithvi
This is a very well written article, you should be writing for the NYT or something. Fritzl's wife was obviously an accomplice in some way or the other to this. It's impossible for her to not put 1 and 1 together when the daughter ran away twice and all the other stuff went down. I'm shocked as to how they authorities let the perpetrator mother stay with Elizabeth in the hospital. How come no one is raising the obvious questions that you are? She's not a victim...please!
35 - Zork
Let's not forget that,in addition to raising their children solo while waiting out Josef's 18-month pittance sentence for rape in 1967 instead of taking the children away and divorcing/separating as soon as he was sentenced, Rosemarie also informally separated from Josef in 1973 by moving to their 'country house' . Before anyone applauds her, she did so but left those poor children (including Elisabeth) behind. For seven years she lived solo then she had to go back after the 'country house' burned down after a suspicious fire. Authorities are now saying it's possible Josef burned the house down to compel her return but I wonder if it's possible that one of their children (including Elisabeth) might have done so out of desperation for their mother to return in the hopes that she might be a buffer against their monster father! And if Elisabeth told several friends about Josef's rapes of her as a teen,I'd say the chances are quite high she may have tried to tell Rosemarie. So with knowledge of Josef's rape conviction, her willingly leaving her children with a monster for seven years, we're supposed to think Rosemarie had no choice but to believe his version of Elisabeth's disappearance+ appearances of her grandchildren and was unable to consider summoning a locksmith to force open the cellar door in 24 years time during one of Josef's extended vacations?! Rubbish!
36 - Karen
I see per a Times of London article just out that the Austrian police are just now getting around to "questioning" Rosemarie and searching the upstairs apartment that she and Joseph shared. Now that all parties have had plenty of time to hide evidence and get their stories straight, the police finally take action. But Polzer, the head of the investigation repeatedly stated that he did not think Rosemarie was complicit in Joseph's crimes. Oh, uh, right.
Interesting way to conduct an investgation-announce to the world your foregone conclusions. It's also grotesque that Rosemarie was allowed unfettered access to Elisabeth and the cellar children in the hospital before she had even been interviewed in custody as a potential suspect.
37 - David
Ask yourself this; what were you doing in 1984??? When I think back to that year when I was just 17 and working is a supermarket and than think of all the things I have done since, all the people I got to know and all the events, and that whole time this poor woman was in a basement with no natural light and being raped and tormented by her father. I cannot get my head around it all.
38 - Tiina
I just read an internet article in which a family friend told that Fritzl bullied mercilessly his family, beating his wife and chldren. Althoug I understand that the wife feared him, it still pisses me of that some women stay with their husbands even when he is hurting children.
I also read that Fritzl has asked his wife to visit him prison and has complained that he feels claustrophopic JUST AFTER FOURTEEN DAYS in prison. My God, what a wimp this man is! He seems to think himself that he is strong, but in reality he is weak. Only a weak man needs to bully women and children and helpless victims in order to feel strong.
The best punishment to this coward would be that his children and the whole world told him what a loser he really is, how weak he really is. He should also be ridiculed in every way.
His lawyer said that he is an "emotionally broken" man. As laughable as that sounds, it actually might be true, because he has now lost his power over his helpless victims and must feel "very weak".
39 - Stephanie
Happy Mother's Day Elizabeth !
40 - genma
Dr. Mitchell:
You give great insight into a story that has horrified many including myself. Has anyone questioned that maybe Elisabeth is not his biological daughter and that maybe why he chose to lock her up instead of the others? I ask this question after reading that he was away several times doing the early years of his marriage. One was during his stint in prison and another when they were separated for seven years. This man would be unforgiving towards anyone or any child that did obey or belong to him. I do not believe that the mother is innocent. Maybe, just maybe, Elisbeth represented her unfaithfulness or her own short comings as the perfect wife and she was the sacrifical lamb in this horrible story. I have heard many women blame themselves for the husband's abuse and accept this as partly their fault. She inturn, turns a blind eye to the cruelty inflicted on her children. I read that she left Elisabeth while she vacationed with the other girls. by the time the mother left elisabeth to go on vacation he was by then had revealed all sides of his personality to his wife.
If he was able to make Elisabeth write a letter saying she was with a cult, why would we accept the "postcard" from the mother who was on vacation. What about the son who still lived at home with the young children. Abusers usually raise abusers.
I have birthed three children natually. My husband heard me in the parking lot of a large hospital yelling me head off with the last kid. I find it very hard to believe she gave birth without someone hearing something. My gut tells me others in the family know far more than what is being told to the public. This case has too many holes for the police to accept the information that has been given so far.
Thoughts?
41 - Juliann Mitchell
Genma,
Thanks so much for your comments and the points you raised, very interesting and certainly something to ponder.
I think that there is so much about the Fritzl family that we do not know. It may take years to sort out and even then none of us may ever know the whole truth. It seems that anything is possible.
The horrors Elizabeth and her children have experienced are beyond one's capacity to comprehend. She truly is a survivor in every sense of the word.
42 - genma
I have thought of them daily since this story first came to light. I am praying for their recovery and the truth and nothing but the truth is told.
At the same time I am pondering the mother's innocent in the Fritzl saga, the young lady who was locked in a cellar for eight years case has revealed that her mother was involved in her ordeal. What in the world is going on in that country that the mothers are suspects in two cases that are so vile and disgusting!
43 - Tiina
I wonder if it was a wise desicion to put Rosemarie with Elisabeth in the psyciathric unit.
In the poster they made to thank public for support, she writes "I miss my dear friends and my freedom". Is it just me or does it sound really selfish after what her daughter has been through? Losing her freedom for 24 years, living in an airless, windowless dungeon, being repeatedly raped and beaten (and I don't even want to think what sick games he has played with her...), giving birth to seven children on her own in that dungeon, seeing her children suffer in those conditions...
And her mother misses her freedom spending just a week in a comfortable clinic! You'd think she'd feel guilty as hell and were just praying for forgiveness (of letting her daughter down, not noticing what whas happening, if we believe that she didn't know what was going on) and her daugter's recovery. But no: she misses her freedom. Is she still in denial or what?
What do you think, Dr. Mitchell? Am I over-sensitive or does that statement bother you, too?
44 - Stella
I was also taken aback by Rosemarie's comment of missing her friends and freedom.
A lot has been said about Rosemarie's dependence on her husband and speculation about why she didn't leave him and whether she knew abuse was happening before Elisabeth disappeared. However, I believe an important coping strategy for Rosemarie was in fact her independence from Fritzl.
Over the years it sounds as though she detached from him, in order to preserve herself and also to carve out some sort of independent life for herself. She did her best for the children, ran the guest house, met friends, served on school boards. The one thing she avoided as far as practicable was her husband. The relationship (for want of a better word) they shared no discussion would have been tolerated. When Fritzl presented her with the news Elisabeth had left to join a cult, her response was to be sad and miss Elisabeth. No dialogue would have happened between husband and wife to work out strategies on what they should do about this situation. He wouldn't have even needed to have kept lying.
Now all these years later Fritzl (who she is detached from) comes along and presents her with the most enormous problem imaginable (a lost child and now six children fathered by her husband) and all in the full glare of publicity. Yes, I can understand how Rosemarie might yearn for the life she had carved out for herself, prior to this nightmare.
However, blame thrown at Rosemarie is probably counter-productive. Rosemarie is Elisabeth's Mother. They were overjoyed and deeply relieved to see each other. I don't doubt Rosemarie will be a great support to Elisabeth and will be an on-going help to her with raising the six children.
45 - Tiina
I understand very well if Rosemarie misses her life. I just hope she would keep her feelings to herself when she is in Elisabeth's company, because it is Elisabeth and her children who need most support now. If you were Elisabeth, would you like to hear even a hint that your Mother would like to be somewhere else than by your side?
If Elisabeth was able to hide her suffering from her children in the dungeon (at least as well as she could), couldn't Rosemarie do the same? Who knows, maybe she does. Maybe she is able to give her daughter the support she needs.
46 - Eva
I have to say that I agree with Tiina about Rosemary's comment being selfish. Is she even capable of having any empathy towards her daugther and grandchildren? does she comprehend what thay have gone through, locked up for all those years? She is either completely clueless or extremelly insensitive and thoughtless. Missing her "freedom", please! So far I've tried to give Rosemary the benefit of the doubt about her not knowing about Elisabeth's ordeal, however, after reading that message on the poster, I'm not so sure. Perhaps I'm making a big deal out of nothing, but my view is those words speak volumes about her lack of empathy towards Elisabeth.
I still think that right now Elisabeth needs her mother more than ever and I hope that Rosemary takes a good look at herself and realises that she needs to stop thinking about herself for a change and think of what's really important. She has the potential to be a source of strenght and comfort for her daughter, I hope she starts doing the right thing by her.
47 - Eva
I appologise if my earlier comments have offended anyone, I just feel so strongly about this story for personal reasons.
48 - Stella
No need to apologize Eva, I think your comments were spot on. I'd love to think Elisabeth is being lovingly mothered and nurtured after everything she has been through.
Rosemarie will also need counselling I'm sure to deal with the lifetime she has spent with an abusive husband, the recent events that have transpired and how she can best help Elisabeth and the children. I'm sure she will be having to confront issues she has not previously done and accept new challenges that she never thought she would need to. It would have to be daunting, although she owes it to Elisabeth to embrace it.
49 - Juliann Mitchell
In terms of Rosemarie's comments about missing her freedom and her friends I am not surprised. Since I have not interviewed her I can only speculate on what she meant. Being in a psychiatric facility with Elizabeth and her children would for the first time bring Rosemarie face to face with the realities of what her child and grandchildren experienced at the hands of her husband Josef. She can no long deny anything because every hour of every day she has to face the realities of what took place the last twenty four years of her daughter's life and deal with it. If the family is together in the hospital then probably everyone is receiving individual therapy and most likely family therapy too. I dont know if Rosemarie ever had any fantasies about being famous but if she did I doubt that she wanted the world to be looking at her, questioning her innocence, suspecting her of complicity, etc. Her life is now under a microscope and the world is watching and waiting. For a woman who seems to have spent much of her life in a state of denial or escapism this must be overwhelming to say the least.
50 - Kelly
Since I'm only seeing bits and pieces being reported about this whole ugly mess, I'm still inclined to think that Rosemarie wasn't, at least consciously, aware of any of the disgusting things that man was doing. I'm getting a vague picture from the media that the women of Austria are still treated as 2nd class citizens and if that's true, then I can understand where her "ignorance" began. Now, add that abusive, dictatorial, arrogant, violent, filthy, repugnant and lying man to the mix, and her identity and sense of self gets pushed back further into the recesses of her being until one day, she barely exists - emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. She's just a body that breathes in and out day after day.
Did she hear or see anything? Probably. Did she fully understand what her senses were telling her? Instinctively, she probably did. But I think that it didn't fully register in her consciousness. Why? Because what that man was doing was so vile, so incomprehensible, so obscene and so unimaginable, that her mind couldn't even begin to fathom it. How many of us here have really, really tried to imagine what Elisabeth has endured? You can't can you? You know why? Because it would probably cause a nervous breakdown - it's too much to handle. That's what happened to Rosemarie when she learned about Elisabeth being held prisoner, right under her feet for 24 years. Her head, figuratively speaking, exploded. When I first read about Elisabeth, I actually felt myself change deep inside, as if something snapped off inside me and it's gone forever. If I can react that way, I can't begin to imagine how Rosemarie, the matriarch, the caregiver to the 10 children she knew existed....must feel.
She honestly expressed that she misses her freedom and friends. Of course she does! She's human! She desperately needs something familiar and safe to hold onto, too. I don't believe that she would have shared that if she weren't encouraged to do so by the therapists, or at least knew that Elisabeth wasn't holding her entirely responsible for what that man did - to the whole family.
For all we know, this may well be one of the few times when Rosemarie has been "permitted" to say what she really feels.
I think we need to take care in pointing fingers at anyone other than that man. HE is the one who did this, that we know for certain. Anyone else's involvement apart from him, remains to be proven.
I would hate to see other people's lives destroyed simply because they are related or live down the street, or worked in the same office or went to the same school or whatever.
51 - Menno
Great to find this blog. Thoughtful and considerate. I guess many here read and post because they "just feel so strongly about this story for personal reasons" as Eva put it.
I don't want to distract others commenting on the current main subject (the mother's guilt or innocence) but still want to comment on another subject.
We are told that authorities (such as police, and social workers keeping an eye on the "grandchildren" in the "upstairs family") did not know of Josef's history as a rapist because records have been erased according to legal requirements, and Austrian politicians are now proposing to change these laws.
I dont buy that story.
Amstetten is a small town, and the Fritzl family lives in a small suburb of it. When Josef was convicted for rape in 1967 it must have been the talk of the town.
Indeed we have seen some neighbours reporting in the Austrian press that they, as children in the 1970s, were warned that a rapist lived in that house. Moreover when the story broke in april, neighbours told reporters about the rape in 1967, this was how the story about the 1967 case came to our attention in the first place. So, after 40 years (fourty years !) neighbours still remembered the rape, still remembered the rapist, the case, the conviction, the sentence.
Everybody in town knew about the rapist. Everybody except the authorities, the police, the social workers, the town mayor. Don't believe that story! The problem is not that authorities closed their eyes because law required so. Authorities closed their eyes because living is easy with eyes closed. Changing the law won't change that.
Wishing you all the best, Menno.
52 - Eva
Kelly, I am grateful for your comment and you're absolutely right, we're all expectator's in this story, gathering bits of information as they come to hand. Who of us could TRULY immagine, let alone understand what those people have gone through (including Rosemary), I can't even begin to comprehend it.
I know for myself, and others I've spoken to, this story has brought up strong feelings, as we can relate it to something painful that might have happenned in our lives, or someone we care about. My best friend was abused by her father as a child and her mother did nothing to protect her, in fact she went as far as testifying against her in court to save the family's reputation. Her selfishness and the pain she caused my friend with her actions cuts deep in my soul and makes me angry beyong words.
Being a mother myself, there's nothing in the world I wouldn't do to protect my children, even if it means living in a women's shelter, or under a bridge, anything would be better than knowing my child is hurting while I pretend everything's fine.
Having said that, I agree that, in this case, our anger should be directed at the tyrant who put his family through hell, and also not to be so quick to judge Rosemary as can't possibly know what's going through her mind right now.
53 - Katrina
Yes, we all know that Joseph DID it ! Was he alone ? Nobody helped him in a way or the other ?
I am very sorry but I can not excuse Rosemarie!
There are so many things that don't make any sense!
54 - Eva
The point is that we don't know for sure about Rosemary. My head is split in half about her.
I know I despise Josef Fritzl and also that I feel immense empathy towards Elisabeth and her children, but I still don't know where Rosemary fits in this story, it is such a grey area, so complex. Only she knows the truth about the extent of her complicity/involment/denial, and perhaps we will never find out.
55 - Kay
The article here and the many comments are so insightful into this horrible case. I can't help but to feel so deeply hurt for Elisabeth, her mother and the children in this case. My father had mental problems and my mother was an enabler. He didn't beat us but he would fly into insane rages of hateful screaming. My mother would tell me that "you cause him to go into those rages by the things you say and I have to take the brunt of it." Everyone, including my sisters and relatives were schooled to not say things in front of him to anger him. In my mother's words, "there are other kinds of abuse besides physical abuse". My three sisters left at 18 and my mother took a night job and was gone most of the time. I retreated into my room as a teen and retreated farther and farther into myself so as not to deal with my father. One of my sisters dragged me to a cult. My mother saw some improvement in my behavior due to the community offered in the cult and the structure and so was all for it thinking it was the best thing for me. She never seemed to acknowledge that the symptoms I was showing were the fault of her and my father. Intense guilt was unloaded onto me. When I finally left home because I couldn't deal with my life there anymore, I was 24 and very naive. I pretty much went wild with the drinking and staying out every night, etc. I would bounce from that back to the cult until I was 33. (I read where poor Elisabeth did this and was dragged into that cellar by her father...) After I left home, by the way, my mother wanted to leave my father but only decided to stay because she didn't want to give up her life style financially and because my father was "mean" and she couldn't endure the court proceedings. I am now 54 and sometimes feel I have been in a fog for many years just going through the motions. The mind has a strange way of protecting itself...I wonder how much Elisabeth, Rose and the children are living like robots in emergency mode so to speak. It took me years to finally get out of the cultic thinking...I still have problems with it, but less and less due to major counseling and help from good people over the years. It also still bothers me about my parents who are both deceased now. My husband came from a dysfunctional home with an overbearing, abusive father and a mother who killed herself. For the past 25 years of our lives together we have built a private, structured, pleasant life together. We do not have children. We have 4 small dogs which we shower with love like children. I only tell these things, because I can empathize so deeply with this whole situation. I cannot see how Elisabeth, her children or her mother will ever be able to deal with all of this extreme evil and depravity they have been through. Especially with the harsh glare of the whole world on them and the harsh judgement they will have to endure from people. It would be better if they were given aliases and just disappeared to a structured world where they can have supportive friends and healthy experiences as has been suggested by the professionals dealing with them. I feel that when they "come out of the fog" so to speak, anger and many emotions are going to hit and hit hard during their healing process!! Thank you for letting me share and give my opinion.
56 - Kelly
Menno, you've brought up a very interesting point! It seems that if so many citizens of the town knew about the pervert down the street, the authorities had to have known as well. They have accepted some responsibilty by admitting to being gullible for believing what that man had told them about Elisabeth running off to join a cult and dumping her children on his doorstep. But if they have any hope for redemption as far as the citizens of the town, let alone the world, is concerned, they need to revamp their entire judicial system, now!
I can't help but wonder...prostitution is legal there, right? Have they lumped consensual sex in with incest and rape and just consider it all the same? Judging from their light punishment for crimes, destroying prison records and their view of women in general, I can't help but wonder if they really don't think rape and incest are all that awful - except when it becomes international news? Wasn't it their chancellor who announced that he would be working to restore Austria's image?...as if to say, "image" is so much more important than the reality of the Elisabeth's and Natascha's of the country?
57 - Sam weaver
It is amazing how people are viewing Rosemarie. Many are judging her on what they perceive as the role of a mother. No one wants to believe that a female could be a party to such a nightmare. I think that there are numerous unanswered questions yet to come out. But, I am curious, how could a terrorized woman take a holiday to Italy by herself or for seven years operate a guest house without her husband? I am not quick to condemn, but so many dismiss the possibility that Rosemarie knew about what was going on. By the way, with all the babies born in the basement, who took care of buying and disposing diapers? Were there diapers? Hopefully, the authorities sift through all the emerging information and present a clearer picture. Then again, maybe Austrians really do not want to know the truth.
58 - Brandy
Interesting article and viewpoints. I liked your article because you gave a lot of information and background and tried to make some 'sense' of what happened i.e. to analyze it.
I'm struck that you called an 18 year old a child, however. And I disagree (but it's only an opinion) on two points:
1. Most likely a man that sadistic was abusing his wife as well, or at the very least, psychologically controlling, intimidating, and degrading her. There is a very good chance the man's wife had "Stockholm Syndrome" and would have believed him had he told her Martians kidnapped their daughter and she would soon be their new First Lady. I think after years of living with such a man there was likely little of her left.
2. I think the man likely took the granddaughter/daughter to the hospital because she is his 'trophy' and proof of his deeds, and his ego would not let her disappear. I'm sure the kids had no medical or dental care otherwise. She was taken only because she might die. He may have also been abusing the offspring of his daughter, and/or grooming them for eventual abuse. I do agree with you that real concern would not be anything he'd be aware of.
I hope everyone in this situation is getting and will continue to get counseling. If the offspring witnessed the rapes and abuse then they were abused also (apart from the imprisonment of course). None of them will have any idea what a normal life is. They will all need long term guidance, counseling, mentoring etc. The one exception to 'receiving counseling' would be the perpetrator himself. Sociopaths do not get well, they only become more manipulative having had counseling.
One news story claimed this man is also suspected in at least two murders. If he raped others perhaps he would not have seen them as 'his' and so he would not have had a reason to keep them around - in essence his toy, even more so than he regarded his own daughter as such. He was not a man with limits, only with compulsions.
59 - Eva
Dr. Mitchell
I just wanted to let you know I that I agree with your comments in the article about Fritzl's motivation to take Kerstin to hospital having nothing to do with humanity or guilt, he was just looking after himself once again. How can a person be so utterly evil and self-centered is beyond me.
There's something I read in an article that I can't get over, shortly after being released Elisabeth said to the police that when she got pregnant for the first time, she was worried that her father was going to be mad at ther because now he was going to have to release her (so she thought), his answer was: "Don't think you're getting away so easily"...I can't stop thinking about those words and the dispair Elisabeth would have felt upon hearing them, her small gimmer of hope for freedom gone.
It’s almost too unbearable to think about, I find myself thinking about new details everyday, not because I want to torture myself, but because what happened to her is real, this is a person like any of us who has been made to suffer unimaginable pain. How I wish I could somehow take some of her pain away, but I can’t. I wish her all the best in her recovery.
60 - Eva
Dr. Mitchell
I just wanted to let you know I that I agree with your comments in the article about Fritzl's motivation to take Kerstin to hospital having nothing to do with humanity or guilt, he was just looking after himself once again. How can a person be so utterly evil and self-centered is beyond me.
There's something I read elsewehere that I can't stop thinking about, shortly after being released Elisabeth told police that when she got pregnant for the first time, she was worried that her father was going to be mad at ther because now he was going to have to release her (so she thought), his answer was: "Don't think you're getting away so easily"...I can't stop thinking about those words and the dispair Elisabeth would have felt upon hearing them, her small glimmer of hope for freedom gone.
It's almost too unbearable to think about, I find myself thinking about new details everyday, not because I want to torture myself, but because what happened to her is real, this is a person like any of us who has been made to suffer unimaginable pain. How I wish I could somehow take some of her pain away, but I can't. I wish her all the best in her recovery.
61 - Juliann Mitchell
Eva,
Thank you for all your comments and insights. I think this family is haunting for many of us. Elizabeth has suffered so much that it hard to comprehend. Josef is a twisted, narcicisstic, sadist who cares only for himself and no-one else. Rosemarie? We will discover more about her and her life with Josef as time goes on. Yes, I agree Elizabeth is a real human being who has endured unimaginable horrors at the hands of her father. I, too wish her well and hope that she is able to find peace and happiness in her new life.
62 - Juliann Mitchell
Kay,
Thank you for all that you shared. Please know that the abuse you experienced was not your fault, your father was the only one responsible for his own behaviors, you were not to blame. The same is true for your mother, you did not cause or create your father's violence. You have been through so much, you are courageous and strong to have broken free from the cult. I wish you continued happiness and peace. Animals can be so healing, they accept us and love us for who and what we are at any given moment in time. Wishing you all the best.
63 - Juliann Mitchell
To each and every person who has been commenting on Josef, Rosemarie, and Elizabeth Fritzl thank you so much. I have read each and every comment at least twice and I appreciate everyone's insights and thoughtfulness in responding. Obviously this family has touched our lives and taps into our beliefs about fatherhood, motherhood, and survival. Because Elizabeth is truly a survivor in every sense of the word. Again thank you one and all.
64 - sonya
Someone wanted to know why Elisabeth didn't tell someone what was happening to her before her imprisonment. To this day my Grandmother will still say about my fathers physical abuse of my mother "I didn't know what was happining. Why didn't she tell me? I thought he was such a nice man." If my Mother,a grown woman,couldn't tell what was happening to her how could a child.It takes a lot of courage especially when the victim is a child and the perpetrater is your own father. May God help her and her children for they are going to need all the help they can get.
65 - Elise
I am appalled by the lenghts the media is going to in order to get that first picture of the Fritzl family. It goes to show how greedy some people are, they don’t care about how their actions affect others.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m as curious about this story as anyone, but I don’t NEED to see a photo of Elisabeth or her children, I just don’t. Why don’t photographers sneak into the prison where Fritzl is being held and harass him? he’s the one that created this mess after all. We need to remember that the family is recovering from an enormous ordeal, they haven’t asked for the media attention, they haven’t had any choice in what’s happened to them, they have merely survived and escaped from a cruel monster.
I feel very protective towards Elisabeth and her children, I wish them nothing but peace and well-being, and long after this story calms down, and the photographers move on to their next target, I’ll continue to think about them and to send my blessings for all of their wishes to come true, and for them to find the happiness they deserve.
66 - Brandy
It's been occuring to me that perhaps not only did the man's wife know - at least in a vague way - but that perhaps Elizabeth knew her mother knew. And in her lifelong role as family scapegoat and sacrifice, Elizabeth continues to protect everyone at her own expense.
It seems inconceivable that the man's wife never ventured into the basement or never heard a thing. Was the basement soundproofed? What about babies crying, or as someone else said, diapers? Unless, of course, she was so traumatised and brainwashed herself that she existed in some sort of fugue state.
Still, I can't dismiss the thought that Elizabeth is still in a sense being sacrificed. As she must have tried to protect her own children in some way as well. What 'protection' meant to her in such a skewed setting is anyone's guess, of course.
The home video of this man showed him sizing up an array of slinky dresses and choosing one. I shuddered because I couldn't help wondering, did he choose that dress for his daughter?
67 - Elise
Dr. Mitchell,
What do you make of the reports that Fritzl cries himself to sleep at night? I think that he’s feeling sorry for himself and no-one else, he probably also realizes that trying to manipulate the public with his tried-and-tested tactics didn't work and now he truly feels helpless, then again, could his conscience be catching up with the old man?
68 - Stella
I'm wondering too what is behind Fritzl apparently crying himself to sleep at night. His crimes have now been exposed to the world and he can no longer hide behind a carefully planned image of the caring grandfather family man and respected citizen that he had previously deliberately cultivated.
I think he wants to use his family now to help him to get back to feeling ok about himself. If one of them was to visit him, send him a message etc., from his point of view he would have asserted his authority once again and by so doing would have regained a measure of power and control over his world once more. He manipulated situations and people before and this is unchanged now. I hope none of the family buys into it. His behaviour is for himself not them.
69 - survivor
whoa, some of you bloggers cannot be serious! You say the mother will enable the abuser to allow the abuse to happen by pushing the abuser toward the child and set up the children with the abuser or care givers, because they feel more comfortable in that role of an enabler??!! The enabler only feels calm when the child is broken! This sounds like something you read in a textbook this is way off the mark and not in any realm of reality. This kind of attitude softens the sex acts in which the abuser performs, it minimizes and denies the heinous acts that the incest abuser does. I can assure all of you who buy into this nonsense philosophy that when my children were sexually abused by their father, I had no knowledge of incest and did not have any inkling until the day my 2 1/2 daughter disclosed to my mother, after the local police station closed the case for "lack of evidence" ( In Canada a toddlers must 1. be ripped from stem to stern in their perianal area. or 2. have a semen specimen found on their body, in order to be charged because they cannot testify themselves) I fought long and hard for them to re-open the case and to protect them from him even being held in "contempt of court" by the supreme court of Canada, for not allowing the children visitation, because I knew they were being re-abused by him. some say the non- offending parent will dress the children in sexual clothing! hogwash!~ although some parents do not dress their children is age appropriate clothing, and in sexualized clothing, sexual abuse is a "crime of power" not of extreme libido. I doubt any mom would consciously or sub consciously do this to attract the abuser of the abuser! Some comments on here are very insensitive and ignorant(that means without knowledge it doesn't mean rude.) some comments are taking me back more than 22 years to the 1980's and beyond with the huge minimization denial and the attack on the mothers. The mother is called the "forgotten victim" and let me say I first found out about my children's abuse by their father almost 22 years ago and I too am still a victim. I had to pick up the pieces after he destroyed and demolished our family and I fought very hard to keep them safe while they were growing up in my care, because he was never charged, I even contacted a underground railway to flee with them after it looked like he may have been granted sole custody! I deal everyday with their lack of confidence and self-esteem ( they are in their 20.s now. I deal with my one child's flash backs and my other child's memory loss and many many other dynamics. I still, to this day deal with the mind $%*(()&^( that's the real clinical term, but I didn't want to swear) my ex-husband's family puts on my now adult children and myself. This has effected their whole lives and mine too. My daughter remembers and in no way blames me for the abuse or thinks I allowed it to happen. As she understands I too was a victim of my child's abuse, If any of you who has had children who have been victims of your husband's sexual abuse, you will understand. To say mothers allow this to happen is inappropriate and unforgivable of you who posted these uneducated comments, I feel as if myself and my children are being re-abused by misinformed people who are minimising this. And yes we had intense therapy specifically for incest victims. Having said that I know their are some women who are paedophiles and abusers of adults too, so yes, in those cases the mother would know. if she allowed it to happen, she is not the victim, but also an abuser. Please don't blame me for what happened to my children, I was a young mom and had no knowledge of sex with children by their fathers. I was in know way shape of form, an enabler and I am not in denial!
70 - Joy
survivor,
With all due respect, if you are to believe that there are mothers who are innocent of knowing about incest, then you must also believe that there are family systems whose whole existence rely on the pairing of an abusive parent and a parent in denial.
When I hear of stories where abuse propagated itself for years, I return to the abuser/enabler model. You simply cannot have a case of incest that stretches across three decades without the enabler parent having some sense of something being amiss. In particular, Mr. Fritzl's conviction (not accused, but CONVICTED) of rape is about the BIGGEST RED FLAG imaginable. That she chose to continue to expose her daughters to this man after he was CONVICTED of rape is unconscionable to me.
And then, there are the classic signs: drinking in adolescence, running away, taking part in activities at all hours to stay as far away from home as possible. Taken separately, they mean nothing. Taken together, it shows a pattern: the child is NOT COMFORTABLE AT HOME. Again, this is a massive red flag.
Brandy earlier mentioned the "scapegoat effect" -- where one person is singled out for abuse in the family. I agree that this was almost certainly in play. Whether any of the family members want to admit it or not ... by Elizabeth taking on the brunt of Dad's abuse (emotional, sexual, etc.), everyone else benefited. He clearly was a man with sadistic tendencies, and poor Elizabeth was thrown at him to keep everyone else (relatively) safe. In that scenario, no one in that family has any incentive to save Elizabeth because Elizabeth is a buffer between them and the dangerous daddy.
Sure enough, you neither hear about Elizabeth's disappearance nor her abuse until someone nearly dies.
I think that if the Austrian police wanted to do Elizabeth any favors, they would separate her and her children from the rest of the family and give them a lifetime of free, comprehensive therapy to counteract decades of abuse, neglect, and persistent messages that they do not matter.
For what it is worth, my own family was built on an abuser/enabler model ... and I have washed my hands of all of them in order to sort out my own feelings about having been abandoned and neglected for so long.
71 - Eva
Survivor,
I don't mean to be rude, but you're referring to your own situation only. We cannot assume that because you were unaware about your child's abuse until she disclosed it to your mother, as you said, that we should assume all other mums are oblivious also.
In the one case I know of personally (my best friend), her mother did know about the abuse, my friend actually told her mum about it, to which she responded that she must be “making it up”. I would have taken so much courage for a child to tell anyone, and when you do, you hope to be helped in some way…
I knew that there was something wrong with my friend; she had become withdrawn and moody. When I prompted her to tell me what was wrong, she made me swear not to tell anyone before revealing the abuse at the hands of her father. I encouraged her to talk to her mum about it, but unfortunately her response was to deny that it was happening, perhaps because it was too difficult for her to deal with it, or because she truly didn’t want to believe that it was happening.
It would take a lot of prompting for her to finally tell one of our teachers who did help her, the matter ended up un court where the father was found guilty due to physical evidence; mind you, my friend's mother still testified against her.
My Friend ended up living with family friends, moving from one place to the other with very little stability in her life. To this day, she has issues of trust and intimacy, which has a negative impact in her relationships.
I don’t mean to say that the majority of mums know about abuse and ignore it, not at all, because I don’t know the figures, and I don’t believe anyone in this forum meant to attack you personally. It sounds like you’ve been through a lot, and have done the right thing by your children for many years. Sadly, this is not always the case.
You’re right when you say that the abuser creates a huge mess in the lives of the entire family. However, the number one person affected by the abuse IS the child; he/she is one who needs the most support, first and foremost.
72 - Juliann Mitchell
Elise,
My apologies for taking so long to respond.
I suspect that Josef Fritzl is feeling both helpless and powerless. Everything is all about him, as he is quite narcicisstic, still a sadist, and most likely a sociopath. It is all about Josef, as it has always been, and will continue to be so, until he takes his last breath. Rehabilitation is out of the question for this man, One of the thins I have wondered about is his childhood. People are not born sociopaths, narcicissts, or sadists. What horrible things happened to him as a child? However, he is incapable of feeling guilt or remorse for all his heinous acts. Emotionally he is dead. Any tears he sheds are for himself and no-on else.
73 - Diana Sholl
At last an article that does not believe the mother to be totally innocent. Simply being a mother appears to exempt, by this status, any type of punishment however many times it is obvious they are involved, directly or indirectly. The word 'mother' is taken as an absolute to mean its definition not the actual performance of the person with that title. 'Mothers' raise, in the main, sons and a child is not born a monster, monsters are made.
74 - Carlita
As many of you other readers have commented, I too am unable to turn away from this fascinating story of survival. It truly is a miracle that Elizabeth was able give birth and raise her children in such conditions. Being a pediatric occupational therapist, I have worked with many children who have come from neglected homes who were extremely malnourished and received little medical attention until the time of adoption, (as where negligent parents rarely take their children to therapy).
The question I bring up is what sort of therapy are the children and family receiving? Are they in the care of the competent psychologists and psychiatrists? We all have witnessed the competency of the local police and social workers. Hopefully, their mistakes will not be repeated. But one must question the intentions of the people taking care of survivors. Regardless if the mother consciously or subconsciously knew about the abuse, why would you allow her to be reunited with her family without further investigating all the facts? The police are just now re-investigating Rosemarie AFTER they have allowed her to rejoin her family. Clearly, her parenting ability has been questionable in the past. So again, why would you want her influence and presence to be around Elizabeth so quickly? Not only will she have to answer police interrogations but what does she tell her grandchildren when they realize what she has done or did not do? Even though some people may blame Rosemarie for her lack of action, this is not my intention. I just don't necessarily believe that her presence is a positive influence at this moment until "the dust settles".
And in response to cases of mother's being enablers and mother's completely innocent, I am sure there are cases of both. It is erroneous to assume that all cases fit one stereotype or the other. And as Survivor has let us know, it is extremely difficult for women to escape abuse even if they actively escape their abuser. So in response to Survivor's comment, I think you have misunderstood some of the intentions of the other bloggers. We applaud women who fight against the odds especially when it seems like it's a losing battle. None of us have any idea what we would do in that instance of Rosemarie because we weren't there. They live in a completely different country with different customs and values. It is really easy to blame those who did nothing about their situation. As where she seemed to ignore the signs of abuse, Survivor saw her children suffering and sought help. And that is the difference within you two women.
Let's remind ourselves that not all countries are friendly towards abused women. Remember, Austria released men accused of rape to give men a second chance. And what message did this send out to the women like Rosemarie? I'm not trying to make this a feminist issue but it seems like we women are arguing with each other thus perpetuating the problem. Even in civilized and westernized countries in current society, women are still treated unfairly and unjustly. Instead of passing the blame on to the enablers or other abuse victims, let's help increase abuse awareness and change the public opinion so women like Rosemarie can find help when they need it the most!
75 - lunchlady
These are great comments! I am a new arrival but I saw this article linked on the CNN InSession board.
The fact that Elizabeth didn't seek help before she was imprisoned means that she didn't think it was possible to get help. A 12 year old girl accustomed to physical abuse at that place and time may have thought being raped was just a new type of punishment. Why didn't she tell her mother or someone else who might have helped her? Even nowdays in Western countries kids often don't tell anyone for years for all sorts of reasons: shame, threats, fear that they won't be believed, misplaced obedience, ignornance of the law, etc. Elizabeth was living with an autocratic abusive father and a beaten down mother who had 6 other children. When she got older she did tell a friend and ran away twice with that friend, but the police found her and brought her home both times. Even then she and her friend didn't tell, or if they did the police brought her home anyway.
My point in this post is to point out the social atmosphere which allowed the abuse to go on for years before the dungeon years started. Elizabeth didn't feel she had any recourse or power to change her situation. She just looked forward to being able to leave home when Daddy no longer had legally enforceable parental rights, not realizing that Daddy wasn't going to let his plaything get away.
Rosemarie was in a similar situation. She had been brutalized and humiliated for years by the time Josef started raping Elizabeth. If she had any inkling of what was happening she also felt helpless and too afraid to do anything about it. I could fault her for having so little courage and ability to protect her daughter, but its easy for me to think I would do it all correctly if I was in that situation. I have never been raped and almost never even been struck by anyone in my life. The men in life have been angelic compared to Josef and some other creeps.
So the Fritzl family drama leaves with me with renewed vigor to support women and children's rights. If there isn't external support for abused women and children then bad things happen and go on and on, and the abusers feel smug about getting away with it. They feel like Real Men, not pussywhipped, not quiche eaters, strong to do what they really want to do and rule the roost.
So it all goes back to female empowerment and fighting the old paternalistic patterns of abuse and domination. Given the opportunity some people will abuse others, so a system of checks and balances needs to be in place to limit those opportunities to have power over others.
The legal protections which women and children now have weren't easy to get. The courts and other institutions looked the other way and apologized for bad behavior but did little to help prevent bad things from happening or to help remedy the situation when bad things occurred. There are still lots of victims out there, feeling trapped and powerless and afraid.