Recently I posted a real life incident that happened to me as my car was vandalized by an apparent "heterosexual hater" of traditional marriage. And it was obvious to me that the culprit was part of the gay activist crowd because of the rainbow sticker plastered over my pro-family bumper sticker.…
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76 - Steve S
Contrast Stacy's story with an account of a gay activist from this site who, some time ago, gave an account of a brutal beating he received for being gay.
That's not an activist. That was me.
That incident was a catalyst for change for me.
83 percent of gay youth report experiencing name-calling and threats at school, according to a national study conducted by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network.
Gay and lesbian teens are nearly four times more likely to skip school because they feel unsafe, and are nearly three times as likely as their heterosexual peers to have been assaulted, to have been in a physical fight, or to have been threatened or injured with a weapon at school, according to a 1999 study by the Massachusetts Department of Education.
A separate study in Massachusetts published last year in the Journal of Social Work and cited in a 2001 Human Rights Watch report indicated that lesbians and bisexual teens are four times more likely than heterosexual girls to be victims of attempted rape or rape.
Last year's Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network study found that the most common official school response to harassment was to do nothing: 82 percent of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered students said faculty or staff never or only sometimes intervened to protect them. Nearly 25 percent reported hearing derogatory comments from school personnel.
source for data
In terms of that incident, which I've had to share three times, so apologies to those who've read it, you can skip the fourth. This is what happened, it was in the 80's and it was in the heart of the Bible Belt, so it was a different atmosphere, things have improved but not in all places. Anyway, I was about 21, closeted, my self esteem was so low I wasn't able to hold a job longer than 6 months and had already tried to kill myself by that point. That night I was leaving a bar. I was in the parking lot when about 5 guys jumped me. Leviticus 20:13 was repeated during the assault. I went into shock, I ended up with a fractured skull, a concussion, a broken nose, smashed teeth and permanent although tiny scars on my face. I went to the hospital and they promptly called the police, against my wishes, because of the severity of the assault.
I was laying there on the emergency room table, in pain and in shock, thinking I could not get any lower in my life. I had nothing, no one, the closet prevented me from sharing with anyone and yet still I was formulating plans on how to tell family/friends I was mugged while dropping someone off at the airport or something like that.
The police came to the hospital, and I distinctly remember looking up at the bright lights above the emergency room table and seeing their images. It is one of those moments that live in you forever. There were two. I told them what happened and then I told them the location. When they realized it was a gay bar, they turned to each other and laughed. I saw the doctor's jaw drop.
I cannot accurately describe what I went through at that moment. I was forever changed. I didn't think my situation, my life and even that night could have possibly gotten any worse, but I realized at that moment that there was no one to protect me. I was already familiar with the concept that an emergency call to the police from a gay establishment generated about an hours more waiting time than if the call was from somewhere else. They still raided the bars even in the 80's, although mostly just on election year. They no longer carted people off in paddy wagons, but they did check ids of everybody in the bar on a semi regular basis. I have never known that to happen in a straight bar. I just knew at that moment, it was my proof, that there was absolutely no one there for me.
That became the birth of my pride.
77 - Silas Kain
Steve, thank you for sharing that story. I confess that I am a bit emotional right now because of the cruelty imposed by the police officers. As I have proclaimed many times, law enforcement officials must take some blame in promoting anti-gay hate crimes. There are police officers to this day who think that gays and lesbians are aberrations and should be treated as such. Justice is not dispensed equally in this country. Ask the black community. Ask the gays in small towns in the Midwest. Ask the gay kids beaten up in back alleys in the inner cities by a group of homophobes that usually include a couple of off duty law enforcers.
78 - jarboy
stacy, you and everyone else has a lot more to fear from the american taliban (i.e., evangelical christians) than from gays and gay marriage. gays just wnt to be able to live their lives in peace without discrimination; the american taliban want to dictate how everyone else should live. won't be long before they'll have you in a burka, babe.
79 - Eric Berlin
Man, that's a crazy story, Steve. Thanks very much for sharing it. Amazing that that goes on in the heartland and in the cities, too. Places where "traditional values" are given high praise. "Family values."
Damn...
80 - Nicolette Rivers
I think towns and cities have their own spirits and feels. I believe there are good and tolerant places through-out the country.
Every time the topic of gay bashing comes up, the mid-west or middle America is invoked as if these places are populated by homophobes, bigots, and Nutty Religious People.
81 - bhw
You mean they're not?
82 - Steve S
Every time the topic of gay bashing comes up, the mid-west or middle America is invoked as if these places are populated by homophobes, bigots, and Nutty Religious People.
Nicolette, while prejudice lives everywhere and tolerance can be found everywhere, there is a huge disproportional divide between the liberal coasts and the conservative midwest.
My experiences, when I moved to California, are as different as night and day from when I was in the midwest. While nothing is absolute, Nicolette there is a definite imbalance. This can be witnessed by seeing where the battles for Creationism take place and stuff like that. It's a necessary survival technique in my community to acknowledge the imbalance.
83 - Silas Kain
"... won't be long before they'll have you in a burka, babe.
May I suggest a little accessorizing for those burkas? Perhaps a few well placed sequins? Perhaps a nice colourful silk print with matching monotone stiletto heels? I see a new chain of stores springing up all over America. Ali Babba Ganoush Burka Boutiques. It'll be the rage.
84 - Mickey
Why does the writer assume that gays are anti-family ? Gays are not born on Mars. They are sons , daughters , brothers and sisters .
Live and let live. Is that so difficult to understand ? I sense a great hatred for the our homosexual brothers and sisters here. The sort of hatred nazis had for jews.
Whats next ? Concentration camps ?
85 - Silas Kain
I think that's a little strong, Mickey. With all due respect I've seen plenty of conservatives and Christians on this site who have been very cordial to the gay community.
Many gays are quite family oriented. However, many of the visible gays that society encounters are a bit over the top. Many Christians contend that gays are self-loathing, self-hating sad individuals. Face it, that's the truth. Most gays have allowed themselves to be viewed as less than normal, second class citizens. For the gay community to really thrive, we need to reverse the paradigm. We have to prove that we are contributors to the family of man; we have core 'family values'; and, there is a place for us at society's table. We are our own worst enemy. James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and their kind can't be reasoned with. They need to be shown that they are wrong by the examples we set forward.
The gay community does have its role models. Scattered in little villages and quiet towns throughout this country are 'alternative families.' They work, not without problems, but they thrive nonetheless. Rosie and Kelli O'Donnell are another example of how a lesbian couple can love each other and nurture a family. Though Rosie does conjur up a lot of debate I don't think it would be fair to say that those four children aren't fortunate.
We're so focused on getting society to change and accept us that we've forgotten that we need to make some changes within ourselves.
86 - dolphin
I don't think Micky is being too strong. Many, many, many conservative christians have voiced support for such an exermination of gay people. Is it all of them? No. Is it even MOST of them? No. But I've also noticed that with any and every victory that they win, they become that much more extreme. My suspician is that many of them would more than happily support the systematic excution of gay people, but the political climate is not at a point where such a statement would be advantageous to make.
87 - Steve S
I think that's a little strong, Mickey. With all due respect I've seen plenty of conservatives and Christians on this site who have been very cordial to the gay community.
Sorry, Silas, I agree with dolphin and Mickey. Mickey said 'Why does the writer assume that gays are anti-family', not 'why does every Christian on this site...'
It's laying a comment like that across all Christians that give them the perception that they are under attack, when the reverse is true.
Many gays are quite family oriented. However, many of the visible gays that society encounters are a bit over the top.
Please give me a name of some of these 'over the top' gays.
Many Christians contend that gays are self-loathing, self-hating sad individuals. Face it, that's the truth. Most gays have allowed themselves to be viewed as less than normal, second class citizens. For the gay community to really thrive, we need to reverse the paradigm.
Yes, too many of us are self-loathing and self-hating and this leads to destructive behavior like promiscuity, drug use, alcoholism and suicide. Which we then of course get blamed for. Nowhere in your statement do you say the CAUSE of this self-loathing. The cause is generations of demonization of us from the pulpit. People carry this sentiment out of their churches and into their daily lives.
ANY group that faces stigmatization and oppression on the level that we do, is going to manifest that prejudice as self-loathing.
So you need to point out that when Christians condemn us for being self-loathing, it is because THEY have created a society that loathes us, and we are a part of that society too.
We have to prove that we are contributors to the family of man; we have core 'family values'; and, there is a place for us at society's table.
Why, Silas? Why do I have to prove I am a human being to these people? I am a family man. Monogamous for 20 years, ever since I was 20. All through my 'sow your oats' age, I was monogamous. Christians would be proud. We also did a surrogacy and I am a family man. I work from home and raise my daughter full time. Christians would be proud. Why do I have to prove this to anybody? I should get my equality no matter how I choose to spend my life. Should somebody choose to not have children, then they are still viable members of society and they still contribute greatly.
We are our own worst enemy.
I disagree. I think this type of statement stems from an unconscious self-loathing. It is not our fault that we are oppressed. We cannot be blamed for our diverse reactions to oppression. We do not blame the victim for 'deserving it'.
James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and their kind can't be reasoned with. They need to be shown that they are wrong by the examples we set forward.
Even if they are shown, it amounts to nothing. Do you not think Ellen is an example of someone who does not lead a destructive lifestyle? When Ellen came out of the closet, Falwell called her Ellen Degenerate. No matter what example Ellen set (and she set a good one), they still condemn us. No, we have nothing to prove that we are entitled to equality, because they won't give it no matter what. Witness the fact that I have openly admitted on this site that I do not engage in a certain gay sexual activity yet it is still brought up to condemn me in the very same thread.
We're so focused on getting society to change and accept us that we've forgotten that we need to make some changes within ourselves.
The majority of changes we need to make, will be solved by getting the oppressive atmosphere removed. We are human just like everyone else and we are not infallible, yes we have problems and always will, so do evangelicals, conservatives and liberals.
Sorry, Silas, the problem does not lie with the victim.
And there are many people who would love to send us to some sort of concentration camp. They can't so they take out their own self-loathing on us with baseball bats. Do you know how many Christians were victims of hate crimes last year due to religious belief? According to the FBI, zero. Do you know how many gay people were victims of hate crimes last year, due to orientation? Almost 2,000, according to the FBI.
88 - Nicolette Rivers
Unless Michigan and Minnesota -- the places I've lived in -- are on a liberal coast I don't know about, there is plenty of acceptance and compassion to be found around these parts. Enough? No, of course not, but it's there.
Ferndale Michigan is like a smaller version of San Francisco. Ford Motor Company is helping to build a gay community center there and it's a lovely city. I know this because I, and a lot of straight and bi people, shop there often.
Steve -- my point is that just like you don't like people to act like all gays have the same lifestyle, I don't like to be painted a bigot because I don't live in New York or California.
Isn't Stacy from California? I thought that's what the license plate said in her "people are out to get me 'cause I'm straight" pic.
I'm not about to tell you that there is not prejudice everywhere you go, but you can't write off a whole big portion of the country either. You take people as individuals.
Hell, I've been at a gay bar with a little old lady who was depressed when she found out the "Blow Job Contest" was about alcoholic drinks.
89 - Steve S
I understand, Nicolette. Again, yes, there is intolerance everywhere and tolerance can be found anywhere too.
Michigan and Minnesota are not two places that come to mind when I speak of the midwest.
I have pointed out the intolerance I have faced because of 'good ole boy' mentality from the midwest. I see a huge divide in cultural adaptability in regards to the coast/midwest. To use a stereotypical example, a redneck driving a pickup truck with a confederate flag and a gun rack in the back could probably be found anywhere, but you are more likely to find them in specific regions than in others. That's not stereotyping or laying a generalization upon the whole populace. And I did point out the huge difference in treatment that law enforcement provides which seems to be contingent upon geography. Again, for the record, everybody in the midwest is not the same.
90 - Natalie Davis
Way to go with boosting your site meter stats, Mr. Harp.
About the ex-gay phenomenon, it appears you know very little -- and that VERY FEW experience true change of any sort. Dr. Robert L. Spitzer's controversial 2001 study (finally published in 2003) drew the conclusion that some were able to "change" (though they could have been bisexual or heterosexually inclined underneath -- and those studied were led to participate via the exgay organizations THEY WORK FOR), but that the numbers of these people are extremely few. Interestingly, Spitzer, a psychiatrist at Columbia who had a part in the removal of homosexuality from the DSM, has come out publicly in favor of civil marriage equality.
Even if a few claim they have changed -- and good for them if they are happy -- let's look at those countless more who haven't: Many experience emotional damage, loss of self esteem, suicidal thoughts (some succeed, sadly), and worse. And many give up on God, because who would want to follow so cruel a deity as the one promtoted by ex-gay "ministers" and "reparative therapists"?
I thank God for Ex-Gay Watch, a vital source of info on the doings of the exgay militia and the religious wrong. A dear friend of mine runs the site. He does a supreme service to humankind.
91 - Natalie Davis
I screwed up the formatting bigtime and missed giving the link to a piece on Spitzer's study: http://www.ralliance.org/SpitzerStudy.html
92 - Silas Kain
Plenty of food for thought have you served here, Steve.
Please give me a name of some of these 'over the top' gays.
Good point. I won't out anyone specific but I will cite examples. Take gay baths, steam rooms, highway rest areas, etc. Now before you go postal, I'll be the first to admit that I've been at these places. To me they feed into the whole self-loathing paradigm.
Yes, too many of us are self-loathing and self-hating and this leads to destructive behavior like promiscuity, drug use, alcoholism and suicide. Which we then of course get blamed for. Nowhere in your statement do you say the CAUSE of this self-loathing. The cause is generations of demonization of us from the pulpit. People carry this sentiment out of their churches and into their daily lives...
Actually I thought that the context in which I made the statement pretty much assigned the cause to the demonization you speak of. That being said, Steve, I contend that we really need to stop blaming the other side for our destructive behavior. The â€"woe is me†attitude and demonization of Christian bigots does nothing to help us as a community. The pulpit has been the epicenter of many of mankind's woes for 2,000 years. The gay community is certainly not the exclusive victim of Christian bigotry. Women, Muslims, Jews, aboriginal cultures on every continent, etc. have been victims. I'm not discounting our place on the list. Granted, gays are the focus of bigotry by other religions as well but not to the extent that Christians have gone.
You talk about the CAUSE of this self-loathing. Steve, I've been there. I allowed myself to fall into that trap. Christians and society didn't cause my self-loathing. I did. As an individual I allowed myself to believe that which they were saying. When I reached deep within myself and found my path to the Almighty, I came to appreciate and accept who and what I was. Let them say what they want from the pulpit, Steve. We just have to insure that this dogma does not make its way into civil law.
Why, Silas? Why do I have to prove I am a human being to these people? I am a family man. Monogamous for 20 years, ever since I was 20. All through my 'sow your oats' age, I was monogamous. Christians would be proud. We also did a surrogacy and I am a family man. I work from home and raise my daughter full time...
Well, Steve, I think you made my point. You ARE that example I speak of. The life YOU live is that which many of us should try and emulate. Steve, you're living, breathing proof of all that is good about the gay community. THAT, my friend, is the most powerful weapon against those who wish us harm.
I think this type of statement stems from an unconscious self-loathing. It is not our fault that we are oppressed. We cannot be blamed for our diverse reactions to oppression. We do not blame the victim for 'deserving it'...
No, it's not our fault that we are 'oppressed.' But that does not discount our individual responsibility. Meridel LeSueur said, â€"The history of an oppressed people is hidden in the lies and the agreed myth of its conquerors.†People like Dobson, Falwell and members of the Westboro Baptist Church are lying to their congregations. They have conjured up this myth that those who follow Christ are superior to the remainder. They impose their beliefs and perpetuate bigotry in its most diabolical form. Gays are the easiest of targets. Like it or not, Steve, some of us painted the bullseye on our own chests. Those that use the name of Christ to conquer are the antithesis to Christianity's message.
John J. Dunphy points out that â€"The history of Christianity has been largely written in blood, the blood of those whom it has sought to proselytize as well as that of those Christians who did not share the theology or ambitions of the male clerical oligarchy that has always wielded power in Christendom. This ignoble distinction is not nor has it ever been the exclusive prerogative of any particular denomination or sect; it is a living legacy of horror that is tragically common to the Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox bodies of Christian churches.†What these fundamentalists fail to admit is the basic fact that Christianity has been built on horror and human bloodshed. Somehow I do not think that the early Christians would approve of those tactics used since Constantine. Christianity's imposition on the Roman Empire was not in Christ's name, it was a mechanism used to homogenize the known world. Constantine didn't convert to Christianity, he converted the world to his version of Christ.
Even if they are shown, it amounts to nothing. Do you not think Ellen is an example of someone who does not lead a destructive lifestyle? When Ellen came out of the closet, Falwell called her Ellen Degenerate. No matter what example Ellen set (and she set a good one), they still condemn us...
Point taken. But don't allow Falwell's words to diminish the example Ellen is making. Just because Falwell and his ilk refuse to celebrate and acknowledge Ellen's example does not take away from her. These people are afraid, Steve. They operate from fear. They look at the advancement of gay rights as a direct attack on their machinery. They have no choice but to proselytize from the pulpit to preserve their religious base, personal wealth and societal status. They have created congregations of Lemmings who blindly follow but do not question. That isn't what Christ did. He challenged Rome. He challenged religious authority. Rather than follow the examples set by contemporary Christian leaders, follow the example of Christ Himself. By recognizing our own self worth and value to the family of man, we spit in the face of these soldiers of Christ who have used Him not in the service of God but in the service of themselves.
The majority of changes we need to make, will be solved by getting the oppressive atmosphere removed. We are human just like everyone else and we are not infallible, yes we have problems and always will, so do evangelicals, conservatives and liberals.
Everybody has problems, Steve. That's human nature. No doubt the gay community is oppressed. Have you ever considered, however, that the majority of the Christian Right's followers are oppressed? Sooner or later the consistent suppression of human instinct is going to result in a backlash. Look at Martin Luther, John Calvin and Christ Himself. Rev. Falwell's Thomas Street Baptist Church is a house of oppression, not a House of God.
And there are many people who would love to send us to some sort of concentration camp. They can't so they take out their own self-loathing on us with baseball bats. Do you know how many Christians were victims of hate crimes last year due to religious belief? According to the FBI, zero. Do you know how many gay people were victims of hate crimes last year, due to orientation? Almost 2,000, according to the FBI.
Another point taken. But, Steve, how many of us are already in our own emotional concentration camp? Have you ever considered that there are Churches throughout this country that share more with concentration camps than they do with Christ? Many of these Christians who believe that they are championing Christ's cause are victims themselves. They have submitted to religious leadership and not to Christ. The suppression of their own human instincts is manifested through their hatred of all that is â€"unchristian.†As the song goes, Steve, deep in my heart, I do believe we shall overcome someday. I'm not saying that it'll be easy. The struggle will continue for many years to come. Let us not be afraid to stand up for that which we believe in our hearts is right. Let us come forth from a perspective of pride and hope and not cower in the shadows of fear. You are a living example of someone who lives from that perspective. Doesn't it make sense that when we reject the mantle of victimization we diminish the other side's power to victimize? For the first 50 years of my life I was a victim. I wasn't a victim of society, I was a victim of my personal submission to what they perceive is their truth. The day will come where a modern day Martin Luther will nail his or her theses on the front door of Thomas Street Baptist Church. May the first of those theses read, â€"No follower of Christ shall use the Lord's name to perpetuate bigotry, persecution, intolerance or bloodshed.â€
93 - Natalie Davis
Some excellent points, Mr. Kain. But whatever the religious wrong's power to victimize, they still have the law on their side. That very fact makes some want to flee or die, even as they fight.
94 - Mickey
Great points by both Silas and Steve. Fascinating discussion. Its ironic isn't it , that a crappy article by an obviously bigoted idiot has enabled such a good informed debate.
95 - Silas Kain
In some cases the law is on their side. But, as Huey Newton said, "You can jail a Revolutionary, but you can't jail the Revolution."
96 - Steve S
Take gay baths, steam rooms, highway rest areas, etc. Now before you go postal, I'll be the first to admit that I've been at these places. To me they feed into the whole self-loathing paradigm.
Okay, I agree with you that we are responsible for how we handle what life throws us. However, if you look at the ostracization of gypsies in Russia, Jews anywhere, African Americans in our history, etc. you can see that it is a natural tendency to have large groups of people become self-loathing. 'Uncle Tom' is a good example. We do NOT say it is their own problem because they can't handle it. Assume two INNOCENT people are locked up in death row. One may handle it and one may crack. The one who cracked can't be entirely blamed for cracking. That is my opinion.
And for the record, I would like to point out to the bigots lurking here (and you know they are there), about public sex like in rest parks and the like. For generations we could not bring our lovers home for the holidays. We could not introduce them in office parties, we could not marry them, we faced exile from our own blood relatives if it were found out we were gay, etc. so in order to have any semblance of expressing intimacy, it became two strangers meeting in the night and then going their own way. There was no alternative.
Also, if you look at some of the bigoted comments made here, specifically ones that are obsessed with anal activity, such a lifetime exposure to such rhetoric can lead an impressionable young gay teen to grow up thinking that sexual activity is the sole criteria towards orientation.
You talk about the CAUSE of this self-loathing. Steve, I've been there. I allowed myself to fall into that trap. Christians and society didn't cause my self-loathing. I did. As an individual I allowed myself to believe that which they were saying.
I do not buy that on a societal level. Women who are in abusive relationships come to believe they are lesser beings too, in no way do we say they earn each beating because they don't better themselves or just because they might feel they have it coming.
Let them say what they want from the pulpit, Steve. We just have to insure that this dogma does not make its way into civil law.
I have never advocated changing the speeches from the pulpit. What I have always advocated here is accountability for free speech. Hitler was free to make his speeches too and look what happened when nobody tried to hold him accountable for his words. He got to take it farther.
No, it's not our fault that we are 'oppressed.' But that does not discount our individual responsibility.
I agree. Where we disagree is in what that individual responsibility is.
They have conjured up this myth that those who follow Christ are superior to the remainder.
Amen.
They impose their beliefs and perpetuate bigotry in its most diabolical form.
Amen.
Like it or not, Steve, some of us painted the bullseye on our own chests.
And then we get blamed as a group for the actions of those who are self-destructive. Straight people can be just as self-destructive yet they do not condemn all straight people for that.
But don't allow Falwell's words to diminish the example Ellen is making. Just because Falwell and his ilk refuse to celebrate and acknowledge Ellen's example does not take away from her. These people are afraid, Steve. They operate from fear.
oh yes, I know and I agree with you. I certainly don't allow falwells words to diminish anything, however you must be speaking to the general populace here. Those of us who have distanced ourselves from the Church know that it is all about instilling fear in it's congregation. I have become much closer to God and have actually witnessed extraordinary events (I won't call miracles) of great beauty since I left the Church. I do not believe it is synonomous with Heaven.
They look at the advancement of gay rights as a direct attack on their machinery.
Their ideology is always one of fear. If you educate a teen on safe sex, then they are afraid the teen is going to rush out and experiment. (never mind the fact that the teen is going to experiment anyway). If you allow abortion then they become afraid that it will become a mass organization that just churns out abortions. If you allow same sex marriage then they are afraid their children won't be able to accurately comprehend who they are attracted to, the list goes on, it's always about fear. Man's temptation and how he needs to be saved from himself. It has no faith in humanity and humans are nothing without the Word. Specifically their Word.
That isn't what Christ did. He challenged Rome.
Yes, he did. He was a fine upstanding liberal who was against the hoarding of wealth and the condemnation of the weaker. Christ's principles are so far removed from conservatism today, I can just imagine after he overturns the money lenders table he then throws a bucket of paint on someone wearing fur.
He challenged religious authority.
And in that vein, many of us gay people are far closer to Jesus than those we fight against.
Rather than follow the examples set by contemporary Christian leaders, follow the example of Christ Himself.
Clearly, you are speaking generically or to someone else.
Have you ever considered, however, that the majority of the Christian Right's followers are oppressed?
okay, here's a comment that ALWAYS sends the fundies into a tizzy. Yes, not only have I considered that, but I consider it brainwashing and indoctrination. It is a belief system that is oppressive and exclusionary and fundies put their children in it at a preschool age or earlier so they grow up with it. They have no choice but to come to believe it and have it be a part of their life. They do not CHOOSE Christianity, they are force fed as reality, it at an early age.
I agree with you that gay people need to look inside themselves and better themselves. We all do. The only part I disagree with, it sounds like, is the level of culpability for the whole atmosphere of oppression.
97 - Natalie Davis
Amen, Steve, amen.
Too late. We have to get this dogma out of civil law.
98 - Silas Kain
They do not CHOOSE Christianity, they are force fed as reality, it at an early age.
Amen, Steve. They did not CHOOSE Christianity, they were indoctrinated; and I did not CHOOSE to be gay, it is a part of my soul.
99 - Natalie Davis
"I am what I am..."
100 - Steve S
Silas, we are in agreement on so much, that is the important thing. (thank you, btw, for the compliments on my value system and my family).
But much of your premise of how we can reach inside ourselves and better ourselves was that we need to 'set an example', 'show we are of values', etc.
Please consider this for a bit, it's something that I had to actually consider for about 2 years before I could come to a conclusion on it:
I AM what you say we all need to be. Not a ONE person on this site who is against SSM for gay people, has been okay with it for ME. Living this way has accomplished nothing outside of the home, but so much within, and that is what it is all about.
I don't need a place at their table. They don't want to offer it. That's okay. I've got my own table. If someone is hungry, nobody needs to prove anything to sit at my table.
101 - Silas Kain
I AM what you say we all need to be. Not a ONE person on this site who is against SSM for gay people, has been okay with it for ME. Living this way has accomplished nothing outside of the home, but so much within, and that is what it is all about.
You know what, Steve? You're absolutely right. And what is most unfortunate is that those who have not been OK with it for YOU are really missing out on something special. Perhaps through your child and those who have shared what you have accomplished within your walls will take it out into the world and cause others to open their hearts.
102 - Nicolette Rivers
I still think the example makes a difference...not to the bigots -- never to them...but to the people who are undecided and the younger people choosing their own values.
A bigot can scream about all they want about how immoral gay people are, but if the people they want to convince of this fact are seeing proof that gays want the same as everyone else, it's a losing battle.
And we cannot discount the fact that again and again people are finding out that Cousin Bob, Aunt Sue, and the nice "bachelors" down the street are gay and really decent people.
The reason why certain extremists in Christianity are so pissed off and paranoid is because they know they are on borrowed time.
103 - Natalie Davis
That's a great point, Mr. Kain. I certainly hope that kids like Steve's daughter and my children will spread a postive message of inclusion throughout the world.
But let's talk about values and such. I think my home life is pretty much the life of a good Christian (liberation theology kind). Even my mother calls me a prude: I never did the promiscuity bit. And at chez Davis-Connolly, we value our faith, pacifism, actively working for a better world, and helping our kids be compassionate and responsible world citizens, blah blah blah. But how about those with different value systems -- should they be punished for not putting the value on monogamy and such that we do? I think not. Enforced conformity of that sort is anti-liberty.
104 - Silas Kain
You're right, Ms. Davis, enforced conformity is anti-liberty. That being said there's a lot to be gained by promoting 'values' within the gay community. The more we work to normalize the image of the 'gay family' the quicker we will achieve the respect that we seem to long for. Personally, I don't think we require the rest of society's respect in that will be achieved when we heighten our own self-respect. Does that make sense? Somehow it doesn't read as well as I hoped.
And, as a side note, I'd like to thank everyone that's participated in this lively debate. What had the potential for being a scathing reparte has turned into an enlightening experience. Stacy L. Harp, thank you. You've intimidated us into coming out of the shadows.
105 - Natalie Davis
lol...
Mr. Kain, I understand what you're saying, but at the same time, I can recall all too well the treatment that, for example, drag queens receive from within and without our community. (We're oh, so proud at Pride, but you always have a contingent of folks who want to hide the drag queens and dykes on bikes. There is something wrong about that, IMO. You and I may consider monogamy or certain modes of comportment ideal, but people's mileage varies on that. And who gets to decide what's "normal"? There is a danger in that, as we who are second-class under law know all to well.
106 - Silas Kain
Ms. Davis, I'm about to make a confession.
From 1975 until 1978, I was involved with a very popular drag show in the Northeast. The show began in a gay club but within months it was on the straight club circuit. After about a year of being involved in lighting and stage production, I donned the wig and gown as a joke to the divas in the cast. This little prank was put together by me and one other person in the troupe. Suffice it to say, it was such a hit, that I spent the next two years travelling with the show as a performer.
As I look back on those days I regret that my own self-esteem was not where it is today. I think I would have more to offer. That being said, I wouldn't trade those years for anything. They were an integral part of the growth and healing process.
I really don't want to hide the drag queens or the dykes on bikes. They're a part of who we are, they just don't define who we are. It shocks many of my friends because I am the furthest thing from the sterotypical drag queen. Back then there was what I called the "Fag National Anthem" by Shirley Bassey. It was the song, "This Is My Life." Mario Cantone opens with this song in his Broadway Show "Laugh Whore." Some of the lyrics to the song ring true today:
Sometime when I feel afraid, I think of what a mess I've made
Of my life
Crying over my mistakes, forgetting all the breaks I've had
In my life
I was put on earth to be, a part of this great world is me
And my life
Guess I'll just add up the score, and count the things I'm grateful for
In my life
This Is my life
Today, tomorrow, love will come and find me
But that's the way that I was born to be
This is me
This is me
This is my life
And I don't give a damn for lost emotions
I've such a lot of love I've got to give
Let me live
Let me live
I've added up the score, Ms. Davis, and I am damn proud of who and what I am. I have plenty to offer this world and for those who wish to accept what I have to give it is theirs for the taking. And for those who reject it, so be it. The loss belongs to them.
107 - Natalie Davis
Great story! I really admire you and appreciate the road you have traveled. I agree, the more outré among us do not define us, just as we should not define them. And yes, the loss belongs to those who reject us. Sad truth is, those who reject us are not feeling the pain -- it is those not equal under law. Some may deal with the lack better than others, but that isn't the point. We are not in the wrong, yet we are being punished.
And the only national anthem you'll catch me singing is the Shirley Bassey tune. :)
108 - Adam Kautz
stacy I have no reason to believe you, as you do not have at least 2 other witnesses to back up your claims about glsen I won't believe you. It is people like you who are in need of help not me, you see you are suffering from what is known as the sociopathic personality disorder, as you should already not the vast majority of sociopaths are religious, whereas normal people are spiritual, there is a difference between the 2. One is that being religious is being strict with something in your case it is your ultra-strict interpretation of the bible and your judging others actions instead of your own, you know if you were more worried about your own sins you would be much happier.