My mind is toast these past few days. I’ve been shown things that have really messed up things I was taught as a young man. Since I’m already a blasphemer and a heretic I’ll just continue on my present course.
Like I said before, I was born and raised a Catholic. I went to Catholic school and Catholic church. I’ve always been curious about other religions and mainly other “versions” of Christianity. I’ve visited other churches. I attended a Methodist church for a while when I was younger. It was close to my house and my grandmother went to that church, so, it was convenient. The closest Catholic church was about 5 or 6 miles away and I wasn’t walking that far for anyone. You know…up hill…both ways…bare feet…snow…in July! It was different. And I think in the eyes of the Catholic Church back then, what I did, by going to a non-Catholic church was pretty much blasphemy. I’ve been to a Church of Christ. I didn’t think it was a whole lot different from the Methodist church I had gone to as a younger man. That’s about it for other churches. But hey, I was/am a Roman Catholic; according to what I was taught, it was the ONLY church, so I only needed to check out a couple of others to see what the deal was.
They built a Catholic church right next to my parents’ house a few years later. My name is on a plate in that church that lists the first confirmation group from that church. I was around 15 at the time and I guess, St. Anselms’ being a new church, they needed money. I had a job back then, I think I was making about $75 a week and the pastor said he wanted $50 a week from every working person in the family. Figure the odds on that happening!
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Lisa McKay
Nice one, Andy (and nice to see you around these days)! I, too, have always been interested in some of the differences between various forms of Christianity (raised like you, but not religious any more).
If you figure any of this out, let us know!
2 - Andy Marsh
I'm working on it Lisa...I have a long long way to go.
I don't consider myself religious anymore...but I have to say...I find this very interesting...and wonder where I might be today if this had been shared with me when I was younger.
I'm not sure where I'm "going" with this search...or why I'm even on it...but I feel like it's affecting me...we shall see.
3 - Lisa McKay
It sounds like you're at an important place in your personal development - if you're so inclined, I hope you'll continue to share some of it with us. These larger issues affect us all sooner or later.
4 - Dave Nalle
Sounds like you're ready to go Orthodox. All the tradition of the Catholic Church and none of the oppressive institutional agenda.
Plus there are all sorts of cool homegrown Orthodox variations like Celtic Orthodoxy which are kind of funky.
Dave
5 - John Spivey
The word "heretic" originally meant "one who has made a choice." Culturally and religiously, the church fears choice as the work of the devil. That is the story of Adam and Eve, the demonization of the power of choice. Snakes can be important. They bring the news from underground where we try to bury things.
6 - gonzo marx
Comment #4 sez...
*Sounds like you're ready to go Orthodox.*
i disAgree...
the Journey of Discovery that Andy is embarking on inevitably leads the Individual AWAY from any kind of Institutionalized church, dogma or reliance upon a priest class...by definition
what one tends to find is that the very organization of a "church" is merely the physical manifestation required for a priest class to indoctrinate and control the "community" via authoritarian dogmatic assertions in order to extort blind adherance and of course, money
i am not saying that all such organizations are "bad"...many do quite a few good works...
however, the very Intent of said organizations is to stifle exactly the type of Questioning that Andy is experiencing in his readings
(side note, notice the root of "questioning" is Quest)
for Andy's edification, and to help expand on his Thought when he wonders...
*and wonder where I might be today if this had been shared with me when I was younger.*
i was 13(1974) when two things happened in my Life that year...i was deeply into Biblical studies, in order to make my First Communion in the Episcopal Church(the Stone Church in Navesink) and i read "Stranger in a Strange Land" for the first time
further background: i was considered a bit precocious in my biblical studies, and was going to have my Examination done by the Bishop when ready...there was some Thought in both the Church and some of my Family that i might wind up pursuing a Vocation within the Church
my Curiosity, spurred on by Heinlein's work, and deep appreciation of History in general and my inate personal requirement to not only Question Authority but to Question everything, lead me to some very esoteric places in my studies
i passed my Examination quite easily, both amazing and infuriating aforementioned Bishop...i took my first Communion...and have not stepped into a Church ever since
"split a log and I am within, lift a rock and you will find Me"
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
7 - Shark
um... what Gonzo said.
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Gonzo, 13 in 1974?! Yer a punk!
(I was in college!)
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ATTN: new arrivals
This Conversation Began Here
..and continued here: Part ii - Gnostic Gospels review
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Personal Anecdote Warning!
My own quest began with my love of dinosaurs and fossils at a very young age -- coupled with being ostracized by my fellow Baptist kids 'cause I went to a different elementary school.
I figured:
1) I don't wanna spend eternity with these pricks.
2) Why weren't dinosaurs ever mentioned in the Bible?
When I asked my father about Universe being made in 7 days -- and how was it that a few hundred million years passed between T-Rex and Adam -- my brilliant father, bless his heart, explained the meaning of "symbols" to that curious 6 year old.
Whoo-boy. That was it for me. I exited that Baptist Church faster than a pair of Mormon boys heading for their bicycles after they see ME answer the door!
Later -- (yall still with me here?) I was debating a good buddy who was "returning" to the Catholic Church. We used to argue for hours -- and he always tossed up this conversation-killing phrase, "That's what it says in the Bible."
I decided if I was going to get anywhere, I would have to know the New Testament and WHERE it came from and HOW it got here.
That was my "in the beginning."
Thanks for listening.
(Epilogue: Oh, and for those interested -- I later beat the hell outta one of those little Baptist kids who treated me so mean. And much later in life, he was later convicted for child molestation and attempted murder. So much for a religious upbringing, eh?)
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Ad astra per aspera!
8 - Andy Marsh
gonzo - Shark is right...you are a punk...a very knowledgable punk...but a punk...I was 15! hehe
My Journey of Discovery as gonzo so rightly calls it seems to lead me away from ANY church. Kinda funny...it was the church that led me away from the church in the first place.
I get the impression that first communion in the Episcopal Church is very similar to confirmation in the Catholic Church. In the catholic church I did my first communion when I was in 1st grade. later, the confirmation, with questioning from the bishop to verify that you knew the "Laws" of the faith. The bishop finally told me to stop raising my hand, he was convinced that I knew "the faith". After this week, I'm convinced I don't!
So far, I've read The Gnostic Gospels, Beyond Belief, bot hby Elaine Pagels. I'm currently working on The Gospels of Mary Magdala...I also have a copy of Stranger in a Strange Land...should be fun.
9 - Shark
Andy, as far as "locating" a nice church:
Hint:
"Cleave a piece of wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there."
(Jesus - Gospel of Thomas, Saying #77)
10 - Andy Marsh
You know Shark, You're really not a bad guy...despite what Dave says!
HA!
11 - gonzo marx
Shark in number 9 shows that he and i have read and remembered different translations of the same Works
heh
punk?...moi?..is that in an Iggy/Ramones sense?
i'll cop to that gladly!
but i digress...
Andy..my Advice is to finish Mary, take a break this evening to wath the Rush bit on VH-1 classics this evening(see the R30 post by El Bicho for times...you too Shark...please watch this one! as a fan of "classical" that you are, you might appreciate the instrumental virtuosity and symphonic compositions...even if it ain't yer "style")
and then read "Stranger" , digest what you have absorbed so far...it will help ya in the next Steps along the Path
i woudl also Advise to ALL you gentle Readers...from yer gonzo...go and take a Tai Chi class!!!
best thing EVER for your Body, Mind and Spirit...all in the original no-impact aerobic
so sayeth yer gonzo...
Excelsior!
12 - John Spivey
In the end Gnosis is not the result of reading. For one discourse the Buddha simply held up a flower for all to see. Christ was not a Christian and the Buddha was not a Buddhist. They simply discovered what was there to be discovered.
13 - gonzo marx
John makes a very excellent Point, of course
might i suggest, that especially to Westerners who are entirely unfamiliar with some of the Concepts under discussion here, but with the History of those they hold as Beliefs...
that the suggested Readings and activities are merely the First Steps along the Path towards the Way
one must open a Door before they can step through
it helps to show some that there is even a Door where they have only perceived a Wall previously...re-enforced by cultural as well as dogmatic pressures
sheeesh...here i am spouting off again...
pay no Attention to the Man behind the Curtain
Excelsior!
14 - Andy Marsh
did I come here for a brain???
there's no place like home...there's no place like home...there's no place like home...shit...where's those red shoes!
15 - Shark
Andy, the baloon will arrive when you're ready.
16 - El Bicho
Very interesting that you would quote Wizard of Oz in regards to your own journey since it wasn't the Wizard or the red shoes that got Dorothy home. She had the power the whole time and was unaware of it.
I'd wish you luck on your journey, Andy, but you don't need it since you are already on it.
Pardon the brief aside, but every time I turn around Gonzo is mentioning the Rush article by myself and Fumo Verde in different threads, and I just wanted to thank him.
17 - Lisa McKay
i woudl also Advise to ALL you gentle Readers...from yer gonzo...go and take a Tai Chi class!!!
Truer words were never spoken, Gonzo - I've been studying tai chi for several years now, and it's filling my spiritual needs more than any organized religion could possibly do - and you really begin to understand that the journey is way more important than the destination (and more fun, too).
18 - Mark Schannon
Andy, I applaud your honesty & share your confusion.
Aside: Shark & Gonzo--you're both punks. I was out of grad school in '74, barely employed, lost in the wilderness, seeking everything but the Truth.
But I digress. I've been an agnostic for as long as I can remember. I've stood at the edge of the cliff desperate to take the "leap of faith" but have always been unable.
Yet, as I get older, there's a spiritual side of me that's getting more and more intrusive. But a spiritual journey need not include the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God--certainly the Buddhists teach us that. It is a search...although, ironically, as I try to finish that sentence, all i come up with are a bunch of platitudes.
"Search for one's self" is soooo trite, as is "search for one's place in the world," or "search for one's moral or ethical foundation."
Rats. All I know...and it sounds like you're doing the same...is searching. With all due respect for his most magestic self, I disagree with Gonzo about "Strangers in a Strange Land." Great book...probably should read it again...but not the answer. Don't know about Tai Chi--that's worth looking into.
And, with all due respect to those who believe the Bible should be taken literally, the Bible is, at best, a source of inspiration. It is also, at best, the word of God as delivered by human beings. You're also right that the early Church was a theological battleground and who knows if the "losers" weren't closer to the truth?
Good luck & I agree with others who've said, keep us informed about your journey. There are a lot of us on the same dark path.
In Jamesons Veritas
19 - gonzo marx
oh Mark me boyo..ya miss it, "Stranger" is NOT any kind of Answer...it just points you towards asking the Questions...
definately read it again...
take the Tai Chi class...as a favor to me, i want you to stick around for as long as possible, and the overall beneficial effects for you Health, if nothing else...are well worth the time
Full Disclosure: i am not a practitioner in Tai Chi myself...my martial Arts background is very diverse...beginning in '69 with a hybrid of ba gua/hsing-i called the "White Ape sets"...a joke by my sigung("grandfather" who was chinese) about my sifu("father" who is of Scots ancestory, and well over 6'6" tall)...i have studied a bit of wing chun and various other forms...was a professional bouncer for a few years...and am currently a lazy bum when it comes to physical training...
Excelsior!
20 - John Spivey
It's not as much a process of finding as it is a process of losing. Bit by bit the conditioned response to life and outlook on life has to fall away. When some people seek freedom they simply rebel against their conditioning, but they are still being determined by conditioning. Things fall away, fall away, fall away...and it brings great fear. Something happens and you laugh because it was so obvious and you feel sorrow that you missed it for so long. Your eyes are glued open. You wish to share it, but you can't.
21 - Baronius
It takes an authoritative church to compile an authoritative holy text. The position of the Catholic Church is that it was inspired by God when it signed off on the current scriptures.
There were a bunch of texts floating around the Christian world in the 200's, and at times during Rome's persecution, a person could get killed for having a copy of one. Some people were willing to risk death for their faith, but no one wanted to die for the sake of a non-inspired book. So the church compiled a list of the genuine (you might put genuine in quotes) books. By 397, the obvious non-Apostolic books had been dropped, but there were still a few books in doubt. The Council of Carthage finalized the list.
The books we commonly call "gnostic" were among the earliest dropped. They are historically interesting, but there's no reason to think their age grants them authority. I've read some gnostic works, and wasn't impressed. It's not that they're controversial and challenge my faith; they're just poorly written and uninteresting.
You said, "It seems that because one or two people didn't like some things, they were left out and in one case a gospel appears to be placed in the bible specifically to argue for the exclusion of another!" To what are you referring? You said that history is written by the winner, but that doesn't make the loser necessarily right. It seems like you're giving the losers extra leeway.
22 - gonzo marx
Baronius sez...
*The position of the Catholic Church is that it was inspired by God when it signed off on the current scriptures.*
and thus the crux of the matter as to the relative "worth" of various texts
it requires one to have "faith" in the "inspired by God" bit
due to the nature of the individual who originally compiled those texts as we know them today... bishop Iraneus of Lyon in 180AD...
and the text of not only his other Writings (including the "Book of Five Heresies" and his letters to other bishops urging them to Lie even in the face of what they "know to be true" in order to squalch the "heresies" and establish a "universal" church)
this alleged "inspiration" is highly suspect, to say the least
might i sugges tthat if you need to Ask, "to what are you referring"...then you are unAware of MANY pertinent Facts regarding this subject matter
Excelsior!
23 - Baronius
Gonzo, Andy raised questions about Catholicism. After 21 posts, no one had presented the Catholic understanding of the issues. That's what I was trying to do. It's interesting that every other comment has encouraged him to move further from Catholicism.
24 - Andy Marsh
thank you gonzo - the Gospel of John, in my opinion, was included in the list of "approved" gospels for the sole purpose of discrediting the writings of Thomas.
Only in the Book of John does it tell the stories of "doubting" Thomas and only in the Book of John is Thomas excluded from the visit by the Holy Spirit. showing him as not being present when the Holy Spirit filled all the other apostles would tend to help discredit Thomas's teachings.
There'sa couple of pretty good book reviews around here about some good Gnostic reading...check it out...I'd post the link to one of them...but I don't like to brag...
HA!
25 - Baronius
That’s a curious theory. I guess because some of my favorite parishes, and two of my favorite saints, were named after Thomas, I’ve never considered him “discredited”. Augustine and Ignatius talk about Thomas’ profession. The Second Council of Constantinople in 553 uses Thomas’ confession of faith to defend the doctrine of the Incarnation. Today, we repeat it at the holiest moment of the Mass. If John was attacking Thomas, it didn’t work.
John’s gospel alone tells of “doubting” Thomas, but John’s gospel has a lot of unique accounts. Perhaps John’s gospel was accepted only because of the “Bread of Life” sermon, or because of Lazarus. The Gospel of John alone describes Thomas' bravery, when he says “let us go along [to Bethany], to die with Him”. The first chapter of John, and much of the Last Supper, is unique to his Gospel.
None of the apostles come off particularly well in the gospels. Peter’s a coward in all four of them. Luke depicts Paul as a murderer. Paul doesn’t come off much better in his own writings. James and John look silly in Mark. Were these all the result of infighting?
But even if John were trying to discredit Thomas, that’s a long way from discrediting the Gospel of Thomas. There were numerous writings with apostles’ names attached. John, Barnabas, Peter and Paul, et cetera. If I were going to denounce the Epistle of St. Clement, for example, I wouldn't badmouth Clement. I'd attack the doctrines of the epistle.
So I just don't understand your suspicion of the Gospel of John, on the basis of a perceived slight against Thomas. It seems too farfetched.