That time of year is nearing again. The argument arises once again as to whether Holocaust Memorial Day should be abolished to make way for a more inclusive Genocide Memorial Day. Supporting the argument that the current Holocaust Memorial Day is 'too Jewish', it appears the UK's sixth annual Holocaust Memorial Day (HMD) is to be held a day early in order not to clash with the eve of the Jewish Sabbath.
The Muslim Council of Britain have called for the establishment of a Genocide Memorial Day, as Holocaust Memorial Day established in the UK by Tony Blair four years ago has been argued to be "offensive to Muslims" and "a grueling episode for Muslims in Britain". It is reported that Tony Blair was previously advised to replace it with a Genocide Day that would recognise a range of atrocities including the mass murder of Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and Bosnia as well as members of other faiths. Such a proposal has been pursued by the Muslim Council of Britain since the current Memorial Day was established. The MCB has previously declined to attend Memorial Day celebrations based upon the understandable perspective that:
"Genocide is the most abhorrent and outrageous crime against humanity and we are not going to prevent it by selectively remembering only some of its victims."
The MCB has further stated:
"The memorial day would in our opinion be better served by also covering more recent and ongoing mass killings and human rights abuses in our world, and thus make the cry "Never Again" real for all people who suffer, even now. In the last decade we have seen genocide take place in both Rwanda (1 million killed in the space of a few weeks) and Chechnya (10% of its population has been killed since the Russians launched their first invasion in 1994) and Bosnia. We need to do more than just reflect on the past. We must be able to recognise when similar abuses occur in our own time...." "....To reflect a more tolerant and inclusive Britain, we believe that Holocaust Memorial Day ought to be renamed "Genocide Memorial Day" to make no distinction between genocides undertaken against people of other religions and ethnicity."
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Triniman
Watch...you're bound to get people complaining that you have problems with scale and moral equivalence.
While you have made some thought provoking points, there's a segment of the population who seem to be greatly offended by anything that they perceive would take away attention from the Holocaust as the premiere crime against a people, in history.
In my city, they want to build what is largely seen as a Holocaust museum, and the elites have rushed to support it,including tens of millions of tax dollars committed for it, although...it appears that the average people don't support it and are even more strongly oppposed to their taxes being spent on this museum. The group spearheading the museum are one of Canada's best known broadcasting families, who not surprisingly, are Jewish. They are great benefactors in our city and most of us are proud that they live here.
For whatever reason, there was no public consulation regarding whether or not the museum should be built - they are hoping to break ground soon. Privately, people agree that most folks are reluctant to publically say that they are opposed to taxes paying for a significant portion. We get the feeling that the business and political elites who have come out in favour have done so partially because they don't want to be conspicious by their absence, lest they get smeared as being ANTI-SEMITIC. Even the media has done a terrible job of covering the story about the citizens being reluctant to pay for it. Rather, the media have been unabashed cheerleaders. Virtually no one has the spine to ask the difficult questions about why the museum is needed, especially since it will be paid for by our grandchildren (Canada is in debt, although no one talks about it anymore.) Is the museum a nice to have or a must-have? And, the major museum in our city is laying off folks due to falling attendence and a lack of fundraising goals being met.
Hey, I'll go see it when it opens. The proposed building is a startling architecturial masterpiece that will become famous. It is truly beautiful and modern looking. I'm just not happy that we have been coerced into paying for a huge chunk of it without any legitemate discussion. No discussion, save for those cheerleading comments, are allowed.
Genocide Memorial Day will never fly and the mere suggestion of it, if it appears the government is prepared to consider it, will be met with howls of protest. If the authorities appear like they will ignore the suggestion, then the idea will drown in silence.
2 - Baronius
Why would Holocaust Memorial Day be offensive to Muslims?
3 - Triniman
Holocaust Memorial Day shouldn't be offensive to anyone.
One of my friends is of Ukranian heritage. It seems that whenever the topic of the Holocaust comes up, he complains that it receives a lot of attention but the Holomodor receives virtually no attention whatsoever.
From my friend's perspective, some people appear to be exhausted by Holocaust memorial efforts, which also take place in film, books, the media, etc.
4 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
You are not going to like what i have to say here, but I call it as I see it.
1. While the Nazi death camps did murder off, in one way or another, 11 million people, we Jews were the prime targets. ONE THIRD of the world's Jewish population were MURDERED by the Nazis because they were Jews.
2. The Americams and the British, even when they achieved control of the air NEVER bombed a death camp to stop the Nazi extermination of Jews. Once the Normandy invasion was underway in June of 1944, there was NO excuse not have done so. The American and British governments knew what was happening. The only reasonable conclusion to draw is that they were very happy to see the Jews die and the more Kikes the Nazis could get rid of the happier they were. Their behavior after the war and their behavior towards Israel now proves that contention.
3. The Ukranians, Poles, Lithuanians and other eastern Europeans, not to mention the French, were more than happy to see the Nazis kill off Jews, even if they themselves chafed and hated Nazi rule and occupation. They cheered the death of Jews and in their hearts probably wish that Hitler had done a more thorough job.
4. The Vatican never - even posthumously - excommunicated Hitler - who was born and raised a Catholic. It never will either. They want all of us dead - except a small few to testify to the truth of their little crucified god.
5. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a member of the el Husseini clan and uncle to Yasser Arafat y''sh, spent the war in Berlin as the running buddy of Hitler. He and others helped along with the rat lines that allowed Nazis to escape to Egypt and Syria.
6. There has NEVER been a genocide of Arabs in the Land of Israel. There were occasional massacres, but NO Arab people has suffered genocide - especially at the hands of Jews. But Christians living in Sudan have - at the hands of Arabs. And Americans and other "civilized" countries do nothing but wring their hands. What a pathetic sickening lot they are.
So.
The Moslems, particlularly the Wahhabi and their ideological spawn, the Moslem Brotherhood and Al Aqaeda, have nothing to bitch about. They want us dead just as much as the Vatican does. The British government wanted us dead 70 years ago. I see no reason why they should change their minds now.
The subtle enmity of the Christians in Europe does not bother me.
The enmity of enemies does not bother me. Since they accuse me of genocide, I'd be happy to be guilty of the crime. The scum in Gaza who dance when Jews die are NOT innocent souls and the same go for the scum in Ramallah and Arab Hebron.
Cleaning that trash bin ould be just fine, since we've already been called Nazis and been convicted in the Jew hating court of "world opinion". World opinion be damned.
What bothers me is when Jews listen to, try to reason with, or try to please these bastards. They are not worth the time of day or an ounce my spit or shit.
5 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Just to be clear. We do not need more holocaust museums. Those are a waste of time and money. We need for Jews wake up and come home and bring their money while they still can. We need to fill up the land with our own people and develop the spine to expel our enemies from our midst.
6 - troll
Ruvy on genocide - *I'd be happy to be guilty of the crime.*
spoken like a true natural born killer
take your warped and hate-filled moral compass off my bridge
troll
7 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Troll - keep in mind that goats kill trolls to get across bridges. That's what happened to the troll I read about in my childhood And this old goat has no use for the morality of a world that has prejudged us so that it can kill us.
Every terror attack here - every crack by some crappy prelate that we Jews have no ability to police OUR holy places in OUR holy land - every bullshit laden remark by one of your State Department flunkies telling us what we can - and cannot do - is a reminder of that crappy morality that too many of you think has any meaning. The morality that lead to the death of a third of my people - WHICH I WILL NOT FORGIVE AND NOT FORGET!
Shit is shit. And I'm calling it for what it is. You don't like it? Too fuckin' bad!
8 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Let me be thoroughly clear here, so that nobody misunderstands. We do not need holocaust museums or memorials. The memorials must be in our hearts. The fire of memory and anger must burn within us. Buildings are wasteful stone.
We Jews need to come home, settle our land, drive our enemies from before us, reward those who have been kind to us with love, and seek vengeance upon those who have sought our deaths. Only by doing this will we bring true peace to ourselves, and honor to our many many martyrs.
May we only be on G-d's side in our efforts - may He prosper those efforts.
9 - troll
(breaking character) they are my people too pal
and I suggest that the 'morality' you spew will result in the deaths of many more of them
troll
ps - Gruff will get me in the end...but in the meantime many a foolish goat will fill my stew pot
10 - Andy Marsh
I spent 2 1/2 months in Germany and the WORST day there was the day I went to Dachau!
11 - JR
Ruvy in Jerusalem: The Americams and the British, even when they achieved control of the air NEVER bombed a death camp to stop the Nazi extermination of Jews. Once the Normandy invasion was underway in June of 1944, there was NO excuse not have done so. The American and British governments knew what was happening. The only reasonable conclusion to draw is that they were very happy to see the Jews die and the more Kikes the Nazis could get rid of the happier they were.
What about the conclusion that the Allies felt bombing more strategic targets was a higher priority? Or the conclusion that striking camps whose existence was gleaned from undercover reports would expose Allied agents in Nazi territories?
In fact, I don't think your conclusion is all that reasonable, even if the sentiment surely did exist among some people in the Allied nations. I believe the Allies won that war by basing their decisions on military strategy over racist ideologies - in marked contrast to Hitler, whose decision process was markedly ideological and ultimately fatally flawed.
Their behavior after the war and their behavior towards Israel now proves that contention.
I don't see how sending billions of dollars in aid and military technology proves your contention.
The British government wanted us dead 70 years ago. I see no reason why they should change their minds now.
Correction: the British wanted you in possession of the land guarding the Suez Canal and subservient to their foreign policy objectives.
12 - jamal
ONE THIRD of the world's Jewish population were MURDERED by the Nazis because they were Jews.
Is this figure a substantiated fact or an exaggerated statistic? Nevertheless, even if this figure is accruate it does not take precedence over that is Chechnya, Rwanda, Darfur and other countries. The 1915-1917 Armenian genocide, or East Pakistan in 1971 where an estimated 3 million were killed.
The Americams and the British, even when they achieved control of the air NEVER bombed a death camp to stop the Nazi extermination of Jews
Can the same not be said for Checnya, Rwanda and Darfur? Whatever the reasons or justifications there have been many genocides and holocausts that have gone unnoticed or uninturupted. The fact remains that one genocide should not take precedence over others regardeless of who it is committed by or against, but this is occuring with the current over-emphasis awarded to the Holocaust Memorial Day which is relativly Jewish.
As the Muslim Council of Britain have rightly said;
Sadly, ‘Ethnic cleansing’ and mass killings are not a thing of the past; they are a continuing terror. Remembrance must, therefore, refocus our moral vision and rededicate our commitment to prevent current and future inhumanity, state brutality and crimes against humanity. In order to help ensure that such crimes against humanity do not recur and repeat themselves we believe that the Memorial Day can better be observed by making it inclusive to cover the ongoing mass killings and human rights abuses around the world, notably, in the occupied Palestinian Territories, Chechnya and Kashmir and also recent mass killings and genocide on Bosnia, Kosova and Rwanda. Genocide is the most abhorrent and outrageous crime and we are not going to prevent it by selectively remembering only some of its victims. (issued 24th January 2005 - www.mcb.org.uk)
13 - Baronius
Jamal, again, why should Muslims be offended by Holocaust Memorial Day? Why Muslims, specifically? Even a casual reading of history shows that genocide has been around for ages, and continues. Remembering the Holocaust doesn't diminish the tragedy of Armenia or Rwanda. It serves as a reminder of mankind's worst impulses, and the consequences of looking the other way. That's got to be a good thing for all people.
14 - Baronius
Ruvy, I have to dispute some of your comments about Catholicism. We live in a post-Clinton era of speaking loudly and carrying no stick, so I think we fail to appreciate how much the Catholic Church did to aid the Jews under Nazism, and how tenuous Pius XII's position was in Mussolini's Italy. I realize that there are plenty of facts in dispute, and that people read them differently.
You said that Hitler was never excommunicated. Hitler wasn't a practicing Catholic, and denounced the Church repeatedly. He excommunicated himself, essentially, and didn't require a formal excommunication. He was excommunicated, however, in 1930 when the German Bishops' Conference excommunicated all Nazis. Two years later, they forbade Catholics from voting for Nazi candidates. Hitler never won a majority in the Catholic regions of Germany.
Am I justifying the actions of all Catholics during the war? No. Not a chance. As a Catholic, I find ant-Semetic Catholics particularly repulsive. I suspect there's a special section of Hell for the German eugenicists, the French collaborators, and the Italians who realized what was happening up north. I hope they have a special place in Hell, because if I end up there, I sure don't want to hang out with them.
15 - sr
Ruvey, Would like to talk to you one on one. Help me out mi amigo. Do you have a website? jamal how interesting you "IS".
16 - KYS
I'm not sure what the answer is here. My personal opinion is that the Holocaust should be specifically remembered by all of us, for many reasons. Here is one of them:
To think that any one could deny the crimes that took place is a scary notion. At the very least, we need to rememeber.
17 - jamal
Baronius, what offends me is this day specifically refers to one set of people but ignores all others. This is the biggest and most well known commemorative day regarding genocide and is enacted at the opportunity cost of all other nations and peoples that have also suffered in similar ways. With the past and present killings human rights abuses around the world, it is an injustice in itself that the victims are being selectivly remembered with the likes of the current holocaust day.
18 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
sr,
Check out my URL above, look for my e-mail address and send me a note.
Baronius,
If you are aware of some link concerning the excommunication of Hitler and all Nazis please send it to me or post it. If I have been wrong, I apologize, and will send your note and link to the other parties who have made this accusation.
Jamal,
I'll try to make this simple. There was a census taken before WWII and there were approximately 18 million Jews. Another census was taken afterwards and there were approximately 11.5 million Jews. You do the math. Approximately 6.5 million Jews diappeared during WWII. There is all sorts of evidence that the Nazis pursued, with the active help of Easstern Europeans ans others a policy of extermination of Jews. There were no spaceships leaving for Mars or the moon carrying Jews.
JR: Ny family is waiting for me to watch a movie and I said I'd be there in just a minute, so your answer will have to wait. It is on the way, though.
Shavua Tov,
19 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
JR
The answer to most of your comments was in an essay that I wrote over a year ago.
I'm posting that essay to Blog Critics. You may begin to compehend from it that the United States is an enemy of Israel.
As to the "aid" you complain about, you need to comprehend the nature of how an imperial power fosters dependency. Ninety five per cent of the "aid" the Americans give is a credit slip to buy military goods from the United States. So 95% of those tax dollars stay in your country benefitting companies in your country.
Your country puts restrictions on the use of the weaponry also. So instead of producing our own jet fighters with advanced avionics, we buy yours. Instead of producing Galil rifles (based in the Kalashnikov), we buy M16's. Istead of tanners making boots for our soldiers in Beersheba, we buy American made boots - which are of lesser quality.
This fosters a dependency on your nation for arms which is unhealthy, at the least. The best thing your people could do would be to start a massie leter writing campaign to end American aid to this country. We can make it on our own without you.
20 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Jamal,
Again, you repeat the lies of your Moslem Council of Britain:
"we believe that the Memorial Day can better be observed by making it inclusive to cover the ongoing mass killings and human rights abuses around the world, notably, in the occupied Palestinian Territories,"
Your Moslem Council accuses us of genocide, the UN blithely goes along, the Christians in Europe blithely go along. When genocide is commited the population FALLS. the Arab population in my country has only grown.
There has been no genocide in Israel. There is no such thing as an "occupied Palestinian territory". There is only the small time Stalinist Shleppocracy that ru(i)ns Israel and the pack of thugs that pretends to rule from Ramallah.
Repeating the lie won't work with me. Your Moslem council in Britain is a pack of liars and Jew-haters. You know it, whether you admit it or not.
Truly, in the end, it doesn't matter a tinker's dam what you country decides to do. Jews have figured out that their jig is up in Britain. They are FINALLY waking up to the fact that Jew-hatred is the coming thing in Britain, just as it fashionable in France. They are buying up apartments all over Israel, just as French Jews are.
They understand how the concept works. The Moslems do the militant thing and beat up the Jews while the good Christians wag their fingers and moralize TO JEWS about peace and turning the other cheek.
So they are voting with their feet.
21 - jamal
Ruvy, the fact remains that this 6 million figure is not proven. This figure has greatly fluctuated since WWII, and there is many articles offering differing figures. Maybe you should read one example.
Nevertheless, if we are to believe the 6 million figure then we must believe those quoted in the same articles that do so which ALSO include figures such as Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million, Russian POWs 3.3 million +, Russian Civilians 2 million +, Poles 3 million +, Yugoslavians 1.5 million +, Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000, Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000, Homosexuals Tens of thousands, Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands, Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000, Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown.
As Jews were not alone in the Holocaust, then do you not agree that the day should not even in the slightest appear exclusivly Jewish?, and that if Israel was for fleeing Jews, then if should not be exclusivly Jewish either? Furthermore, since Israel was established (in part) for fleeing Jews and a people suffering from genocide, then should they have enacted similar suffering on the Palestinians by forcing some 700,000 Palestinians to flee their homes as the British departed and the Israelis took control Between November 1947 and October 1950, and the countless numbers that have fled and been killed since that time?
But no, you will ignore this as you want to blame muslims, as proven by your latest post. There have been many human rights abuses in palestine by the occupants of the stolen land now known as Israel. Lets not forget that Jews were the first bombers in the region and also have a tendancy of shooting people inside mosques, running people over in tanks, snipering kids and shooting people with missiles from planes. However, this does not refer to all Jews as there are many that seek equality for palestinians
Whether the MCB hate Jews or not, the fact remains that genocide does not and should not refer to one people, and any commemorative day should refer to all people. People such as yourselves refute their arguement by calling them Jew haters and quoting the 6 million figure. Even if they do hate Jews and the 6 million figure is correct, stop trying to use it to belittle the similar figures of deaths of other peoples in WWII and subsequent conflicts.
It is an injustice to continue to give Jews a monopoly on the holocaust, and people such as yourself need to learn this.
22 - Baronius
Jamal, it is the biggest commemoration day of genocide. We should never begrudge it. My dad's people were victims of a genocide. I'm sure my mom's were as well, if you look far enough back in history. Keep looking, and both cultures probably tried and failed to wipe out their neighbors at some point.
Holocaust Memorial Day isn't a celebration of the Jews. It's a remembrance of how quickly the culture of Bach can turn to the concentration camp. If Israel did nothing else but systematically wipe out other peoples, HMD would still be worth remembering. As a Catholic, I always remember the priests and nuns who were killed in the camps, but that doesn't take anything away from the horror the Jews of Europe experienced.
Ivariably, if you try to include everything, you end up with nothing. The debates over whether Sudan counts as a genocide will lead to debates over the treatment of the Irish in 1800's Boston. If you detest Israel, you should insist on HMD as a statement of the need to protect all peoples. If you adore Israel, ditto.
23 - Triniman
Jamal, I think Ruvy's point regarding the number of Jews killed is that it represents a HUGE percentage of the Jews eliminated - approximately 1/3. Yes, there were other groups killed off, but their numbers didn't equate 1/3 of their total pre-war population.
I do understand your reasoning that the memorial day shouldn't exclusively refer to the Holocaust but to all peoples killed from genocide. You have a point. The proposed $300 million musuem in my city, spearheaded by a very rich, generous Jewish family in town, is to be known as the Canadian Museum of Human Rights. People often refer to it as "the Holocaust" museum, but the founders have chosen to make it more inclusive by its name. The family members are tireless champions of various charities and other social and cultural causes and I believe, were wise to chose a more inclusive name. The name they have chosen more or less backs up the point that you are trying to make.
24 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Jamal,
You really waste too much time niggling over figures like a cheap Jew. We're not bargaining over the price of pickles on Fleet Street. The Nazis killed 11 millions in their death camps, but we Jews were the prime target. They got rid of all the trash they could, but we Jews were the main garbage to be disposed of in their eyes. If they missed a few thousand homosexuals or trade unionists, it wasn't a terrible tragedy. It was US they were after. And your boy, Amin el Husseini, the uncle of Yasser Arafat (may they both burn in the hells they believed in), was Hitler's running buddy - a little Arab dog happily wagging his tail at the "great Aryan's" side..
Since you want a "genocide" day so badly, let us give you a benchmark for you to comprehend what the word means. Obviously, you don't. There were 3,000,000 Jews living in Poland in 1938. After the Nazis were done there, there remained 6,000 alive. That is one fifth of one percent. Let's ease the numbers - not all mass murderers are as efficient as Germans. Let us say that one fifth of the targeted population remains alive. In Poland, that would have left 600,000 Jews, not 6,000.
Now let us give you two examples of what genocide entails. Neither have occurred - yet. But you never know with us genocidal, goose stepping, Nazi Israelis!
The most lasting achievement of Gamal Abdel Nasser was the High Aswan Dam in southern Egypt. It stopped the annual flooding of the Nile that made agriculture and life so hard for the 95% of the Egyptians who live on the Nile's banks. Immediately south of the dam is the large lake named for Nasser - that represents about thirty years of water flowing north from the various tributaries of the Nile stretching all the way from the Congo. So let's say that an Israeli bomber or missiles destroy this dam.
What a dam shame. About 80% to 90% of the Egyptians living on the banks of the Nile would die. THAT is genocide. I'll let you do the math.
The water and electricity that the Gazans use is all supplied by - Israel. All we have to do is cut off the water and the juice and sit and say nothing. Dying from thirst is an ugly sight, but no Israeli camera-men would be there to record it. But the bastards at CNN, Al Jazeera and the BBC would be jumping up and down as if someone had stuck starch, itching powder and thistles in their underwear.
THAT is genocide.
Since you have already accused us of the crime, we might as well be guilty, no?
You see, killing 70 Jews in Hebron in 1929 was a massacre. So was killing 26 Jews at a Seder in Netanya. And killing 30 Arabs in a mosque was a massacre. So was killing a few tens of Arabs in Deir Yassin in 1948. But measured against the Arabs and Jews who remained ALIVE none of these were genocide.
If you wish to argue that killing 20,000 people in Haleb was genocide, be my guest. But take that up with the Syrian Arab Republic. If you have the guts.
You can't argue out of one side of your mouth that the Arabs are a majority in my country and out the other that we Jews have committed genocide. Arab men may be horny enough to get their women pregnant, but Arab women can't pop out babies fast enough to make your line of bullshit work. A genocide of the south Syrian Arabs would have left no more than 160,000 alive in 1949, who might have quadrupled to 650,000 now. That is the BOTTOM LINE.
So take you bullshit and peddle it somewhere else.
25 - jamal
"You really waste too much time niggling over figures like a cheap Jew"
You said it Ruvy. Since you was the one that started with the 1/3 arguement, does that make you a "cheap jew"?
Triniman, a good point regardeing the museum. It is in a similar vein the MCB are arguing for the name change for the days commemoration.