When he climbed down from his podium, The Spirit moved me preach. Specifically it moved me to preach of The Great Gopher God...
Religions and religious belief obviously meet deep psychological needs of homo sapien mammals in a whole host of ways. Some are more obvious, some less so. There are different varieties to appeal to the needs of almost anyone.…
Article comments
26 - Morgaine Swann
So you're going to take someone's report of a Witch war between two people and use it to slander an entire network of eclectic belief systems? That's mighty white of you, Al.
The problem is, from what I can tell, you only know what you've read or been told. If you haven't studied and been initiated into a particular tradition, that fact is that you don't know what we believe or what we practice, and if you did know what I believe, it wouldn't mean you know anything about any other Pagan.
What a bigoted, small-minded diatribe. You should be ashamed of yourself and so should the publisher of this site for allowing it.
Find yourself a copy of the indie film "I still worship Zeus" and then tell me no one has an unbroken line of descent.
27 - Kemi
So ... you're an atheist? I have a friend who is an atheist and he loved to make fun of my being Wiccan. He used to make jokes about us "devil worshipers".
Then one day he sat and we talked seriously about Wicca. I doubt he's changed his mind about being atheist, but he has about Wicca. In his words "compared to other Religions, Wicca makes the most sense."
Wicca, like other belief systems, is just that... a belief. No fact, no proof. Only a belief. No better, no worse that the fiction of other religions including Cathalic or Jewish. They are all based on Myth from earlier times and re-written by MEN not gods. But the lessons that are taught are what is important.
28 - MAF
Hi Al, I have been reading your
posts and it is obvious you are
a thinker. I admire how vocal
you are you are about your
beliefs. I am a practicing non-
practicing Christain myself. I
believe in God and Jesus, but
have little use for the seperation
organized religions bring.
The human need
to prove others wrong scares me. I
have seen the lengths people will
go to just to prove others wrong.
I understand contreversy is needed
to keep blogs going, but it also
throws light on why the rest of
the world is scared of America
29 - Seshen
As a Wiccan, I'll agree with most of your critique to the extent of it being limited to the commercialized, eclectic Wicca that has come into being in the United States. The Wiccan religion itself, however, has its origins in British Traditional witchcraft and is a far cry from what you describe. Here's a good web site to check out:
http://wicca.timerift.net
One-stop shopping, with great info on what Wicca is and is not. There are also many non-BTW Wiccan Traditions that have evolved with the same basic landmarks, and are not comparable with what you have noted as "Wicca."
But keep on shredding; a faith made to last must stand up to challenge and critique.
30 - gypsyman
I always find it funny that the things people used to use as survival techniques have become religion. How much dairy or pork are you going to eat while wandering around in the desert. They don't keep that well, and mixing them's bound to curdle in your stomach.
Like I said over in the other pagan post wicca and all so called old ways were nothing more than a series of rituals to ensure that the crops came in and the fields were fertile. How you can equate those with modern living is beyond me.
I have a lot of native friends who follow the ways of their parents as much as possible, but only to the extent that they live by the rules of conduct their nations did. There is no so called Native religion that pre dates European contact.
In fact beliefs not only would change from nation to nation, but sometimes from village to village. How anyone can now claim to be a traditional native teacher is beyond me.
Al your form of scepticism is healthy and should be encouraged. In these days of endless hooey being marketed as salvation I would think that most truely devout people, no matter what their faith, would welcome the presence of people like you.
As a means of keeping it honest you are without a doubt the best. I don't have to agree with you to apreciate you.
31 - Al Barger
Thank you Seshen, and let's make that Timerift site a convenient hyperlink: CLICK HERE.
Kemi made an interesting statement: "Wicca, like other belief systems, is just that... a belief. No fact, no proof. Only a belief. No better, no worse that the fiction of other religions including Cathalic or Jewish. They are all based on Myth from earlier times and re-written by MEN not gods. But the lessons that are taught are what is important."
For one thing, I'm pretty much in full agreement with this statement, particularly that Wiccan beliefs are no better or worse than the fictions of other nominally more respectable religions. If you recognize that these things are useful myths, it's all good.
MAF, if the world's going to be scared of Americans simply for speaking our minds, then they're just going to have to be deal with it. CLICK HERE Moreover, I'm not merely trying to prove someone wrong. Indeed, I look for places to agree with people.
However, the first and hardest part of finding out truth is clearing out the deadwood of wrong ideas and seeing what's left.
Seshan has absolutely the right idea: "a faith made to last must stand up to challenge and critique."
32 - gonzo marx
as for Mr Nalle and Bob A.
MINE is the only style of "marxism" ya need....
..:::007 voice:::..
marx...gonzo marx
now, with that settled..
yer both silly, Bob wins on the funny, and Mr Nalle edges out on the pedantic
nuff said?
Excelsior!
33 - Al Barger
Thanks so much for your kind words Gypsyman. I'm just trying to keep it real. I intend to be skeptical, but not unnecessarily mean or simply a naysayer. It's like Stevie so eloquently put it, "When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way."
34 - Dave Nalle
Am I missing something? How did Wicca creep into this thread too? Or was it always secretly here and just recently rediscovered?
Dave
35 - Al Barger
It's been there all along, Dave. I'm not enough of an expert to parse out the line between Wicca and broader pagan systems, but Cerulean's article was a conversation between her and a "fellow Wiccan."
36 - WTF
Eric Olsen.... we NEED a religion section of Blogcritics, this stuff takes up way too much space in culture or "politics" or wherever it gets inserted.
PLEEEZZZZEE!!!!! It's so annoying. Especially the windbag replies, by the large variety of windbags... who must be from the windy city... or the Northeast... commonly known as Nor'esters. HELP!
37 - Dan
If Blogcritics gets a religon section, then please, no evolutionists. gotta keep 'em separated.
38 - Victor Plenty
Without fertile fields, a supermarket is a scary place; empty, lonely, and hungry, even if it is modern.
I'm not Wiccan myself, but I can see why many people are attracted to a system that at least tries to base its beliefs on a closer connection to nature.
(In case you're a bit lost, I'm responding to something gypsyman said back in comment 30.)
39 - Al Barger
WTF, I don't see how articles in any significant sense "take up space." You mean that you find the stories uninteresting- in which case you simply needn't read them. If you don't see the fnords, they can't eat you.
But you wait, WTF, and when you find yourself being gnawed for all eternity in the mighty incisors of the Great Gopher God, you'll be wishing that you had paid closer attention to what's going on here.
Why, why, why didn't I listen to Al Barger when I had the chance?
40 - WTF
Great Gopher Gods Ghost!!!! I wouldn't want that to happen.
I do read "some of them" and I surf like a mad dawg... separate 'em first then I don't have to bob and weave my way through Culture, Politics etc...
Some may argue that Religion IS culture.
Okay, I can relate, however I've noticed enough hits on religious subject matter that the debate is broadbased in content and deep in rhetoric. Slicing it off into its own cyber round file, would suit me just fine.
See all you "religionists" later.
WTF
41 - Victor Plenty
Crom laughs at your Gopher God! Laughs from his mountain, while your Gopher God gnashes his teeth atop his molehill.
42 - DETansy
One God, Two God, Red God, Blue God
"If there are Gods, they do not help, and
Justice belongs to the strong"
(ancient Mongolian saying)
Recently, I received an email from a friend of
mine, an OLD-school computer geek who administrates
for a major corporation in Indiana. The content of
the message concerned the fact that Pepsi created
a new "Patriotic" can design now coming out, with
pictures of the Empire State building AND the
"Pledge of Allegiance" on them.
Following is the verbatim text:
"Don't buy Pepsi in the new can!
Pepsi has a new "patriotic" can coming out
with pictures of the Empire State Building,
and the Pledge of Allegiance on them.
However, Pepsi left out two little words on
the pledge, "Under God." Pepsi said they
didn't want to offend anyone. In that case,
we don't want to offend anyone at the Pepsi
corporate office, either. So if we don't buy
any Pepsi product, they will not be offended
when they don't receive our money that has
the words "In God We Trust" on it.
HOW FAST CAN YOU FORWARD THIS ONE?"
========= End =====
And my response, which I feel applies directly
in regard to Albert Barger's current blasphemy.
(Name witheld to protect the innocent... )
This is just silly to me. In ME I trust.
I'll believe in any "god" you can specifically
introduce me to, that won't bleed if I shoot
him/her/it.
Which god? Who's god? Not one of the HUGE
number of "gods" that has been CREATED on
this planet has ever come and been seen by
man, it is the mere HOPE for an all-powerful
being (or GOVERNMENT) that keeps people
from relying on their own BEST "higher power",
THEMSELVES.
Catholics believe they can sin w/o worry, since
they can "confess" to a man in a black dress
once a week, and be ABSOLVED. A few "Hail
Mary's, and a couple Our Father's", and they are
"clean" again. (Revirginization?)
Muslims apparantly believe "God" wants them to
KILL in "his name", and all that they kill will be
slaves to them in "paradise". (Along w/ a number
of VIRGINS?)
Jesus, (one of the YOUNGEST would-be "Gods")
was awarded a story-line that was 1000 years old
when he was BORN, first attributed to a Toltec
(precursor to Aztec) deity named Teccuciztecatl.
That is to say, a thousand years before the birth
of the KJV bible "God" YAHWEH's "son" Jesus,
the Toltec "god" Teccuciztecatl was sacrificed
by his "chosen" people, crucified (on a stake rather
than a cross) buried in a rock "tomb" and said to
have RISEN from the dead, walked among men a
few days, then was lifted to "heaven" in a chariot
that flew to the sun. Thus, the Jesus myth don't fly.
Even the Norse had the same basic story for ODIN.
The Hindi (Hindu, India) have more than 100,000
"Gods", some are thousands of years old, others
only centuries. The Great Turtle, the multiple-arm
Elephant, snakes and insects, and on and on and on.
While modern christianity actually covers the
globe, the belief systems on which it IS based is
completely FALSE, using only ONE book to support
it's entire collection of myth, legend, and blatant BS.
That single book is the KJV Bible. (BIBLE, by the way,
is Latin for "books") Ganesh , Vishnu, Rama, Jebus,
Mohammed, Apollo, Yahweh, Zeus, Allah, Shiva, ALL
are the names for the "higher powers" of a thousand
different cultures, ALL of whom shared the SINGLE
desire NOT to have to rely on themselves for their
personal inadequacies, weaknesses, and failures.
Also, because virtually EVERY "god" prayed to by
humans is MALE, most religions on the planet were
obviously made up BY very mortal men.
(As opposed to made-up by WOMEN)
Only in the past 30-40 years have women been
ALLOWED to become high-mucky-mucks in any
of the "great" world religions, NOT because any
GOD has allowed it, but because MEN have. IF, in
fact, a "GOD" made the rules, they would NOT
have changed until "GOD" changed the penalties
for HERESY.
ALL religions tell me I'm GOING TO HELL if I don't
believe in THEIR version, and follow THEIR "path
to righteousness". Therefore, EVERYONE is
GOING TO HELL.
Catholics will be going to MUSLIM hell, Muslims
are going to CHRISTIAN hell, and anyone who has
NO god OR religion will be shared among the hell's
of a thousand forgotten God's, any ONE of which
may have once been the "ONE TRUE GOD".
Think about all that, while boycotting Pepsi.
Personally, I drink 7up!
And, Hey! How the hell are ya?
===== END ===
(I didn't even bother to tell them, "under God"
was NOT in the original pledge, it was added
some 25-30 years LATER!)
What I wonder as I peruse the comments is, how
did RESPONSES to this thread devolve to some poor
attempt at psychoanalysis of the Right Honorable
Senator Al?
What, did he get your goat-god?
43 - DETansy
"basically, Jesus is just Santa Claus for adults."
P.S. - Al, YOU'RE going to ALL the
hells!
44 - Victor Plenty
The "Pepsi can and Pledge of Allegiance" hoax has been debunked numerous times on many web sites dedicated to exposing urban legends that propagate through email.
There are even versions of the story claiming Coke was the company involved instead.
If you can't be bothered to check your facts on something so incredibly easy to verify or refute with a 5-second Google search, why should I listen to anything you might have to say about religion or any other subject?
45 - Seshen
DETansy, no Pepsi. Hoax.
46 - Seshen
Thanks, Al. One of the problems Wicca is facing is the very eclecticism that creates the fanciful, D&D-looking hodge-podge that you outlined as the religion itself. Serious Wiccans call this "fluffy bunny syndrome." It can make things very difficult when trying to present a viable religious presence in the mainstream world.
47 - DETansy
Folks;
Whether the Pepsi fricking story was
or was not true has not a THING to do
with the rest of the comment.
You guys seem SO easily sidetracked,
and so often distracted from the
ACTUAL article, comment, or whatever,
that I generally avoid MAKING any
comment, for fear of jumping into a
sports-trivia or mariah carey argument.
Gods. Didja get the part about GODS?
ADD? PLEASE.
PAY ATTENTION.
48 - Victor Plenty
The vitriol some Wiccans use in their contempt for "fluffy bunny" Wiccans doesn't help their cause much either. I'm not saying you've done that here, Seshen, but I've seen disturbingly hateful rhetoric in some Wicca discussion forums. Enough to make me wonder whether those particular "serious Wiccans" would handle real power any better than their militant counterparts among Christians or Muslims.
49 - Al Barger
If I were you Victor, I wouldn't worry so much about the evil Wiccans. Gopher God's got your number [comment 41], and you'll have plenty of time to think about your petty blasphemy as you spend all eternity being gnashed in his powerful gopher incisors.
REPENT!
50 - Bennett
DETansy - Cool man. Too bad the Pepsi thing your friend sent you is a hoax, I would have bought a case! But it matters not in regards to this thread. I loved your response to him, and agree 100%.
Great post AL, been reading along but until DETansy showed up had no reason to simply agree with what had been said already.
I kinda think JuJu (may his pointed golden tusks pop the bubbles of human delusion) and The Gopher God are buddies of sorts.
51 - Al Barger
Thanks Bennett, the Gopher God can always use allies, and I don't think the likes of Victor want any more to do with JuJu's tusks than GG's incisors. You're going to have a crappy afterlife either way.
52 - Episkopos Peter the Stoned
Credibility? Does this have anything to do with my below-absolute-zero credit score? Man, I just knew I shouldn't have given that hot-sounding phone survey chick my SSN! I should have learned my lesson from the last time!
Peter the Stoned, B.S. in BS
The guy that runs the Lemmiwinks Church
53 - Episkopos Peter the Stoned
btw, if you need the URL for the logo, I can give you that. No guarantee that it will show up, though, since YahooGroups sucks flamingo nuts.
54 - Al Barger
Brother Episkopos, so glad to get a visit from our High Priest! You're kinda like the Pope of Rats.
I'll note also that the Lemiwinks picture is running on this page directly from the Yahoo groups posting. Right click, properties to see the URL.
55 - DETansy
My last word on the subject;
It never occurred to me to give a damn whether
the email was true. My bud never sent anything
REMOTELY "J.C. & The Boy's" like again, so I
never gave it another thought until TODAY. It
seemed appropo, and I thought it would cushion
the blow of basically slapping all the world's
"gods" at the same time.
I give not a shit whether pepsi and coke shake
hands and make POKE. My bud obviously thought
it was true, and was dealing with what he
thought was a big deal.
Still,
My entire tirade concerned the considerable
amount of weight religions that are OBVIOUSLY
BULLSHIT carry with the idiot masses.
(aka The Sheeple)
So, my response would've been the same whether
the story had been the Pepsi can freshly minted
in 14k gold. Didn't care. Still don't. What part
of Al's virtually blasphemic diatribe incuded a
Pepsi, Mr. Credibility? Didn't I SAY I drink 7up?
I was HOPING for someone with a God to use my
Litmus test on, I get some jerk wondering why
I don't spend FREE time chasing ignorant references
to subjects I give not a damn about, in order
to less easily provide nit-pickers (such as he)
ammunition for taking articles as far OFF-TOPIC
as possible should anyone DARE to make a comment
on ANY GIVEN SUBJECT.
By the way, when I writ ADD, I meant ("do you have")
Attention Deficit Disorder? Try to keep up with
the conversation, in order to create a meaningful
dialogue. Otherwise, we ALL wind up in some sports-
trivia or mariah carey argument. None for me, thanks.
I gots three words for YOU... blah, blah, blah.
56 - Victor Plenty
You seem a bit tightly sprung, DETansy. Proof positive that skepticism toward all gods is not always enough to give a fella a sense of humor. If you'd relax enough to take it in stride when somebody mildly tweaks your nose, you might enjoy it around here.
Meanwhile, Al threatens me with eternal incisation, but it was Crom who laughed at the Gopher God. That's Crom! Strong on his mountain.
If Crom doesn't appeal to your appetite for divinity, perhaps you might consider how well your Gopher God might fare against the assembled might of the Celestial Badger Army.
57 - Al Barger
Laugh it up there, Victor. DET might be admittedly a little tightly wound on the Pepsi subject, but at least he's got enough sense not to provoke the Gopher God with blasphemy.
You'll get yours.
58 - Seshen
Victor, there's no denying we've got our fundies in the pagan/Wiccan community just as much as anywhere else. And as is typical with fundies, they tend to be vocal. "Fluffy" as I define it is "willfully ignorant," rather than just a newbie starting out that might be naive on some information. The ones that tend to be hateful about it are those who are generally intolerant of anyone outside their narrowed definitions.
59 - Al Barger
Seshen, Gopher God is definitely some kind of Earth god, being a woodland creature and all. How do you reckon he and Lemiwinks fit into the whole Wiccan/pagan diametric?
60 - Bob A. Booey
Ugh, don't encourage him.
This is painfully unfunny.
That is all.
61 - Victor Plenty
Crom laughs at your painfully unfunny.
62 - Al Barger
Oh yeah, Victor? Well, my God can beat up your God.
63 - Victor Plenty
That time Crom was laughing at Bob, Al, not you and your God. Crom already laughed at the Great Gopher God the other day. Crom thinks your Gopher God is so five minutes ago.
Not that any of that matters to me. Crom was never "my God," anyway, just a God I happened to make the acquaintance of a few years back.
Besides, recently I've become more intrigued by the Divine Pasta Powers and the Noodly Meatitude of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
64 - Al Barger
Mmm, Noodly Appendage, [insert Homer Simpson drooling noise here]