Being a gay teenager is complicated, reports TIME — but not necessarily in a bad way.
In the new (Oct. 10) issue of TIME magazine, writer John Cloud presents an idea that may be shocking and disturbing to observers from every facet of the political spectrum:…
Article comments
76 - Steve S
Reads like:
I have been freed from misery. I have found the truth. Homosexuality is a complete harmful and destructive sham.
Gosh, gay guy, why are you defensive.
77 - Justin R
I suppose another good topic for discussion might be: If gay youth are identifying less and less with traditional gay identity, what will happen to gay culture as we know it? Will it dissipate and disappear? Or will it simply change? If so, into what? And if it will disappear, is that a good or a bad thing?
- Justin
78 - Jordan
Michael, the conclusions toward the end of your post are not accurate.
The gay community is not "demanding that people conform to a specific model of gay". Its just not happening.
In fact, gay people are the best qualified (simply from experience) to know that gay people have different and diverging interests.
In reality, the only people who define people by their sexual orientation or "demand" that they live up to some model are those who don't like gay people.
79 - Michael J. West
They weren't conclusions, Jordan. They were questions.
In fact the only conclusion that I definitely drew from the TIME article is that there were certain questions that needed to be addressed. So I asked them.
80 - Steve S
Justin, re: comment 77, I don't know how much of a tangent I'll be going off on here, because I'm not exactly sure what you mean by gay culture. I don't doubt that there may be one, but I don't know what it is.
When I was your age, it was 1985. I had Bon Jovi hair, and wore concert t-shirts and leather jackets. My roommate was a 50-something momma's boy. The friends I ran around with were a gay gigolo and a gay preacher, and about 10 straight partiers. What culture was I in? I dunno.
I never encountered pressure in anything about activism or equality or pressure to be out (I was about halfway out at that point). Many times there were assumptions that I was liberal and toed the liberal line, but there was no pressure to do so. Conveniently I lean left, so that wasn't a problem for me.
Define gay culture (and straight culture for that matter) to me and then I can tell you if it's a bad thing if we lose it or not.
81 - Steve S
I had to change the word to gigolo because I got a message that (hust - ler) is a banned word?
82 - James
Steve, I think you're right, the article was biased. There are specific code words, and an overall tone that was taken. The tone of the article was that gays are only interested in selfish pursuits ("hardcore activism", or clubbing) and that they are trying to indocrinate or manipulate gay teens. The article then paints ex-gay groups as being loving, kind, and the victims of prejudice by gays. They have extensive praise for Chad Thompson yet they never mention that on his website he claims that gays can be "completely healed". They try to undermine GLSEN's statistics about safety in schools by implying that since GLSEN is actively involved in the "battle" over gay teens, they must overinflate or exagerrate for their own purposes. Can you imagine an article on torture where Time implies that Amnesty International overinflated or made up statistics just because they are so involved in the movement? It's absurd and dangerous thinking. The entire article seems designed to sugarcoat ex-gays and to make gays feel like there is nothing left for them but submission into a more "normal" ex-gay environment.
Michael, I wanted to address this comment:
"The only problem is, gay kids who are growing up in a more tolerant, less oppressive America than their forebears " an America in which three-quarters of high school kids consider "fag" an offensive epithet " have far less incentive to become activists."
I certainly won't argue with the statistic you cite, but in many schools today, words like "fag" and "that's so gay" are used over and over and over. Some states like Georgia are working on legislation to shut down gay/straight alliances. Millions of young people listen to homophobic, violent music. They go to see movies like Wedding Crashers and 40 Year Old Virgin and Longest Yard which make fun of gays and paint gay as the absolute worst thing you can be in life. A survey of college students released early this year showed a marginal increase in support for sodomy laws and opposition to same-sex marriage.
Some in the media and some like John Cloud may want everyone to think that young gays are just loved and accepted by everyone, with the implication in the article that being gay is now passe and that is why people go ex-gay - the article barely if at all mentions that many young people are forced into ex-gay places, like Zack from Tennessee, or their church and family guilts them and pressures them until they finally go. But from my own experience, gay youth still faces a LOT of hostility and they are hurt, not helped, by the assumption that it's all over and everything is fine. The Time article is one of many articles in the media that purports to cast homosexuality as a lifestyle, or as a trend, something that is caused by society and can be turned off. It's basically giving confused or unhappy young gays justification to try to brainwash themselves with ex-gay groups. This is a very alluring and destructive fantasy, and given John Cloud's cheerleading for Ann Coulter, I guess I shouldn't be surprised if he buys into that fantasy.
83 - Steve S
Thank you James, for adding your point of view. I am in agreement.
84 - Justin R
Steve,
I will steal from Michael Bronski's "The Pleasure Principle" and define gay culture as the sum total of how gay people live their lives: "how they have sex, where they socialize, how they dress, how they create extended family and social networks, how they regard themselves in relation to heterosexual society, how they express themselves artistically."
I grant that this definition is overbroad, but I suppose that my premisses are that (1) gay culture, whatever you define it to be, evolves out of gay "identity" and (2) if as John Cloud and Rich Savin-Williams argue, gay teens are embracing the gay "identity" less and less, then gay culture will become less important, no?
I suppose for convenience's sake you can define gay culture as "what the majority of gay people are expected to know or be aware of", be it in fashion, entertainment (e.g. "Friends of Dorothy"), art, life in general, etc.
I guess that's the best I can do right now.
- Justin
85 - Steve S
well, Justin, in that case, the teen on the cover of the Time article is a 'flamer' with his pooka shell necklace and hairstyle. He IS gay culture by your definition.
Conversely, I 'pass for straight' in my appearance, I have a family, a house with a white picket fence and all that.
So I would say that by this definition, gay culture isn't dying out but being born?
86 - Patrick Yaeger
Some gay teens - too overwhelmed by anti-gay ideologies manifesting within their families, churches, schools and communities - never confront the homophobia around and within them. They've been silenced.
I feared the numbers of these 'silenced' would temporarily grow given the increased visibility of our movement since 'gay marriage' came forward as a national issue and the resulting increased vigor of those in opposition. John Cloud's "The Battle Over Gay Teens" (full article here), if nothing else, lessened that fear.
Some gay teens today live openly in insular accepting environments which now include not just college but also high school. Not surprisingly, some don't understand what's at stake for them later on in life. They have, it seems, fallen victim to the illusion - brought about by the very recent emergence of openly gay celebrities - that being gay is 'no big deal'.
Convincing these gay teens as they approach adulthood that it is important to talk about their lives without denying their innate homosexuality may at first prove difficult. But I suspect, as happened with me, they will eventually grow to appreciate what the gay activist leaders of the past have achieved and have not achieved for them.
For most out gay teens today, they will mature into a country (USA) that will, for the most part, bar them from marrying the one they love. Many may enter adulthood in states that categorize them as unfit to foster or adopt children. Many will be banned from clubs, churches and organizations and face job and housing discrimination with no legal recourse available to them.
Still, to be fair, I think for many if not most gay youth, figuring out how to BE in a heterosexual world is confusing and frustrating enough. But then they are confronted with the extra burden of understanding the forces seeking to not just deny them equality under the law but also to equate them, as a whole, with rapists, alcoholics and the mentally ill.
I'm surprised, given all that, how many gay people do 'come out' okay and relatively undamaged. I'm not surprised at the anger and passion out there. That anger and indignation is what has galvanized our movement. I'm confident most gay youth will come to appreciate this anger expressed by many activists as not a militant anger but a valid sensible one given all that has been said by leaders such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and the Pope.
Afterall, we fight for the full humanity of people who are gay. The Fundamentalists and all those anti-gay forces they've rallied around them fight for a hypocritical immoral ideology based on lies and hate. As I've said before, ideologies come and go, but we gay people are here forever and now that we've emerged from the closet of medieval superstitious ignorance about sexuality, there's no going back.
With that in mind, there is too much at stake for any gay person, young or old, to believe we have reached any sort of post-gay lesbian civil rights movement identity. Gay teens who believe their place at the table of society has been permanently set are in for quite a shock when they try to sit down at that table later in life. Therefore, we still very much need new generations of outspoken Gay and Lesbian leaders to speak with force, courage and steadfastness on behalf of those without a voice, still too afraid to speak.
87 - Silas Kain
Yesterday was National Coming Out Day. Now as silly as it sounds, there was a purpose to it and those who celebrated it touted the core message of this year's celebration: "Talk about it". Being gay isn't a choice as some would have you believe. Being an accountant is a choice. Being a Christian is a choice. Being homo-, hetero- or bi-sexual isn't a choice. To reduce such a complicated aspect of a human's personality to such a level is to have no respect at all for human life.
88 - Steve S
well said, Patrick and Silas. When I was a gay teen, the last thing I cared about was speaking up for my equality. But at that time in my life was when it was needed most.
89 - Natalie Davis
"I thought that's the point we WANTED to get to--one in which homosexuals could take their acceptance as much for granted as the heteros do."
That is certainly the point I pray your nation and the rest of the world will reach. Acceptance in some quarters is increasing, and this is wonderful. But as long as GLBT people are unequal under law, the struggle -- however shrill the already-equal mainstream finds it -- continues. No justice, no peace.
90 - Michael J. West
Thanks, everyone, for your comments. I really wanted to spark some thoughtful debate here, and I think we've pulled it off.
I don't really know the answers to any of the questions I asked. But your answers have all been pretty fascinating. Thanks again.
91 - Justin R
"With that in mind, there is too much at stake for any gay person, young or old, to believe we have reached any sort of post-gay lesbian civil rights movement identity" - Patrick
"To reduce such a complicated aspect of a human's personality to such a level is to have no respect at all for human life." - Silas
"When I was a gay teen, the last thing I cared about was speaking up for my equality. But at that time in my life was when it was needed most" - Steve
"But as long as GLBT people are unequal under law, the struggle -- however shrill the already-equal mainstream finds it -- continues. No justice, no peace." - Natalie
These are some of the most important reasons I find for being opposed to Rich Savin-Williams' prognosis of the equal rights movement, and more reasons for me to continue to plan to go to law school so I can make a contribution in the struggle for equality.
- Justin
92 - Steve S
some additional info:
Patrick (commenter #86) says on his blog:
Newsbusters.org - a GOP blog of apology - denounces the Time magazine article The Battle Over Gay Teens by John Cloud as playing with the facts.
It seems more and more people from both sides of the aisle are finding problems with the article.
93 - Steve S
I want to change a previous answer. The question was is it good or bad that gay youth are turning from gay culture.
If by gay culture, we mean identity (pooka shells, tribal armband tattoos, fashion, etc.) then as you can see by my own example, we outgrow that. We outgrow the need for such identity as we settle down and start relationships and/or families.
So what it seems is going on here, is that the gay community is maturing younger and younger.
And that is a good thing.
94 - Michael J. West
So what it seems is going on here, is that the gay community is maturing younger and younger.
And that is a good thing.
Absolutely the best and most well-thought-out comment I've gotten on this thread so far. Thank you, Steve S.
95 - Justin R
"If by gay culture, we mean identity (pooka shells, tribal armband tattoos, fashion, etc.) then as you can see by my own example, we outgrow that. We outgrow the need for such identity as we settle down and start relationships and/or families."
But Steve, wouldn't you admit that there is a counter-argument (not one I'm necessarily a proponent of, but still) that gay culture has always defined itself as outside the mainstream, and by "maturing", to use your word, what we are actually doing is buying into the heteronormative command for career, family, and pursuit of wealth? If gay culture is a function of gay identity, and we no longer have gay identity (because we assimilate), wouldn't gay culture have to diminish, if not die out?
Think of it this way: the only way gay people are actually different than anyone else is sexual attraction. Because of that, we engage in nonreproductive sex, i.e. purely for pleasure. (This is one of the reasons so many people dislike us). But the model for normalcy is reproductive heterosexuality, so we try to "prove" our normality by acting straight (monogomy, families, etc.) rather than celebrate our difference.
Now, is *that* good or bad for the gay community?
- Justin
96 - Michael J. West
...the model for normalcy is reproductive heterosexuality, so we try to "prove" our normality by acting straight (monogomy, families, etc.) rather than celebrate our difference.
Now, is *that* good or bad for the gay community?
Forgive me for giving my opinion on a matter to which I'm not a party, but I'm not sure if acting straight OR celebrating your difference is a good thing for the gay community.
Put too much emphasis on "acting straight" and you reinforce the idea that "acting gay" is bad.
Put too much emphasis on being different and you reinforce the idea that gay people are a different class of human being than straight people.
The only thing you can do, it seems to me as an outsider, is to just be. Be as comfortable in being an individual as you are in being an Average Joe/Jane. (You are, of course, both of those things.) Don't force yourself to enjoy activities that are stereotyped as "gay" anymore than those that are stereotyped as "straight."
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see that the life or death of gay culture is all that important an issue. What's important is that gay men and women stop being second-class citizens and gain the inalienably equal rights that are due them as human beings. In the face of that, is it really important whether a certain segment of social/popular culture continues to exist or not?
97 - Steve S
But Steve, wouldn't you admit that there is a counter-argument (not one I'm necessarily a proponent of, but still) that gay culture has always defined itself as outside the mainstream, and by "maturing", to use your word, what we are actually doing is buying into the heteronormative command for career, family, and pursuit of wealth?
oh, yes, there is a counter-argument. The most vitrolic and hostile people against gay parenting for example, are usually other gay people.
If gay culture is a function of gay identity, and we no longer have gay identity (because we assimilate), wouldn't gay culture have to diminish, if not die out?
I think there will always be a gay identity and therefore a gay culture, but I think it will just be different. Just off the top of my head (meaning, maybe not the best example), take Will from Will and Grace. He's a lawyer, doesn't he dress like one? He doesn't wear pooka shells or go-go pants, etc. But look at how he identifies and who he hangs around. He's still part of the gay culture right? He still identifies as part of the community. The culture/identity is still there but manifesting itself more subtly. And that is probably a good thing.
But the model for normalcy is reproductive heterosexuality, so we try to "prove" our normality by acting straight (monogomy, families, etc.) rather than celebrate our difference.
This is why other gay people are the most hostile towards those of us who are parents. They accuse us of 'selling out' of being Uncle Toms. I've been run out of one or two gay sites for example because I talk about my daughter.
BUT, I didn't have a family trying to prove anything. I didn't try to prove my normalcy. I had a family because I had parental urges and needed to have a family, just like anybody else who wants to start a family. When gay people have families, they aren't doing it to prove anything. THey are doing it because it's needed to make their life complete. That's what I think. But the assumption is that we don't have the parental urges therefore we just want to copy.
If I wanted to copy a heterosexual family, I would marry a woman and have kids.
It's not a matter of if we are viewed as 'normal' or not. That is irrelevant. You will find that out in time. With the striking down of the sodomy laws, we are not criminals. And we pay taxes, so we are legal, law abiding, tax paying citizens. That gives us rights. We don't have to prove whether we are normal in order to get those rights. Besides, you will find out, when it comes to your opponents, those who are active against you, you cannot prove you are normal, so that is just a timewaster.
rather than celebrate our difference.
Other than the fact that I love a man instead of a woman, what difference would there be to celebrate? The only reason for me to celebrate my 'difference' is to experience pride in the face of adversity, and yes, hopefully that need will fade away.
98 - Steve S
and career and pursuit of wealth are by no means a hetero constraint.
99 - Justin R
Thanks Steve,
I actually agree with you, but I was just curious as to what you would say.
I don't think any of us knows the answer to this question, but I wonder if the monogamistic, parenting impulse is hard wired to our brain or something we learn from culture.
- Justin
100 - Steve S
I would think that would be 'impulses', as I don't think there is any connection, or at least a very tenuous one, between parenting (an impulse to nurture) and monogamy (an impulse to stay with one person).
Monogamy, I think, is cultural, I don't think it is natural within us. Parenting, of course is hardwired for survival of the species.
101 - Patrick Yaeger
"I wonder if the monogamistic, parenting impulse is hard wired to our brain or something we learn from culture"
Hardwired.
We are not fundamentally gays who happen to be human. We are fundamentally humans who happen to be gay. Therefore, all impulses that predominantly manifest in humans no matter of what ancestry, ethnicity, dialect, race, nationality, religion or politics will also manifest in humans no matter the sexuality.
The more freedoms we are given to participate in mainstream activities, institutions, rituals, etc. the more gay people will do so. The drive to participate and assimilate will in the long-run win out once we achieve equality and protection under the law for we are not fundamentally driven by our ideology, we are fundamentally driven by our humanity.
The Gay Lesbian Civil Rights Movement's most important success will be that of creating an environment in which gay people feel free and welcome to express their basic core humanity without regard to their sexuality. The energy that out gay people now must expend in order to make their place openly and honestly is unfair and distracting.
Most gay people, no matter what their outward face, desire a life of community in which their sexuality is irrelevant but acknowledged. The ways in which our humanity expresses itself are indistinguishable from the ways in which all other peoples have expressed their humanity throughout all of time: creativity and relationship. Ultimately gay people are only as queer as our environment makes us. The current gay subculture is mostly a temporary reactionary formation that will subside once the mainstream more fully welcomes us as the full human beings we already know we are.
Some gay activists go too far in rejecting all things that were previously denied to us. That, I think, is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Wanting a family, children, a monogamous committed relationship, acceptance, respect, belonging, normalcy, etc. isn't a sign that some sort of fascist heterosexism is at play but a sign that standard human impulses are at play and that they are inescapable and undeniable. Any attempts to paint them as artificial notions brainwashed into us is rather silly and confused.
Gay people are not from Mars.
102 - Steve S
I agree. When I say that monogamy is cultural and not naturally within us, I'm speaking of humans overall, not just gay people.
Although most cultures today, or a great many of them, promote monogamy, throughout history, it's been more of a communal thing. Either via polygamy or 'it takes a village' type commune where the village raises the children, etc. several examples of this still exist in certain African cultures.
It's my understanding that the one on one type of thing is relatively new, maybe only 10,000 years old or so.
103 - Anthony Grande
No such thing as gays. This isn't a religious thing, this is common sense and science all in one.
104 - alienboy
No such thing as Anthony Grande, that's for sure.
105 - Jimmy Shirley
So, 'you people' can not handle virulent disagreement, huh? I say anyone who uses the term "gay" is part of the problem, not the solution. Just in case y'all forgot, the males sodomize each other and do oral sex on each other. The 'pitcher or catcher' syndrome. They are sodomites, nor gay. They are queers, not gay. Dykes, butch's, homosexuals. They are perverts and pervert the Word of God to gain acceptance among the weak-minded. They are responsible for 'spreading the misery' of aids. Instead of being quarantined, isolated, they cried foul and ended up spreading a deadly disease to more innocent people, such as hemophiliacs, just so they could indulge in their filthy, nasty lifestyle. And you perverted liberal, yankee's support them. Well, you got what you wanted. Aids is pandemic. Satisfied??
106 - not saying
i think people who are "Gay" should be treated just as equal as other people i am not gay but i certainly do not have a probleme with gays.
107 - RedTard
I think everyone should have to try gay sex just once to find out if they are or not. How do you know you don't like it if you've never tried it.
108 - Patrick Yaeger
Read comment #105 by Shirley.
The rant is a great example of pure unadulterated irrational arrogant supremacist claptrap. It paints with the same brush as racists and anti-semites did when they sought to belittle and scapegoate their chosen and mostly powerless minority. The rant boils with the froth of ugly nasty passionate hatred.
And as always, it deludes itself with righteousness by twisting and mutating parts of the Bible to serve its purpose of denigration and segregation while invoking the name of God. And of course, any part of the Bible which contradicts or even embarasses the ranter is rigidly ignored.
While Shirley's rant is frightening in its extreme nature; it is also curiously bizarre.
109 - Kurt
I'm all for guys to be gay. Whatever goes on behind closed doors and all that. But what i disagree with is the flamboyancy that they go about with. I mean is there any need for all that prancing and screeching and so on? NAW!!! Its very uncomforting!
110 - sedski
On the other side of the same coin, is there any need for some of the mannorisms of straigh men?
Im sure we can all think of a few examples...