Being a gay teenager is complicated, reports TIME — but not necessarily in a bad way.
In the new (Oct. 10) issue of TIME magazine, writer John Cloud presents an idea that may be shocking and disturbing to observers from every facet of the political spectrum:…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Casie
I once lived in a lesbian lifestyle. I have been set free by the blood of the Lamb..Jesus Christ. By saying this is okay you are telling teenagers that they can live there life as they will. I have been down the road I know where it takes you. My heart goes out to all people living in this lifestyle. GOD did not make people gay. It is a choice that you maynot understand but I do. I know why I lived it for so long. I also know that I was miserable during those years. No it is not right to put gays down. I can remember when I had been beaten for living a lesbian lifestyle. I am saying this in love ...I love anyone choosing to live in a homosexualy lifestyle. May you be blessed in Jesus Christ.
27 - Mark Saleski
i saw Blood of the Lamb once, they opened for Slayer.
no wait, it mighta been Metallica.
28 - Les Slater
> i saw Blood of the Lamb once, they opened for Slayer.
> no wait, it mighta been Metallica.
I'm an atheist, my day was made when I saw Faith No More opening for Metallica.
29 - Les Slater
Casie,
> I once lived in a lesbian lifestyle.
This seems rather abstract. Could you tell us if this was experimenting or were you attracted to girls at an early age. Did any heterosexual experience predate your lesbian experience?
How did you come about seeking to solve this ‘problem’ through faith? Was it difficult? How long did it take? Are you still attracted to women at all? Do you attend support groups or is this through the congregation as a whole?
I wish you the best.
Les
30 - Anthony Grande
Casie, you are a great and brave person.
You are a role model to all little girls who believe that they were born different.
31 - JCB
Nice read. I am glad that the new LGBT generation is definitely more comfortable in their skin. I think that's only true because of the activism of the past generation. I think that this new well-rounded generation of gay america is one of the biggest achievements of the movement of the past generation.
On the other hand, I don't think the will hinder the pace of the current gay movement and eventually the will probably end up doing some activism themselves. The fact of the matter is that that congress has not been able to pass an Employment Non Discrimination Act (ENDA) or a nationwide hate crime policy.
I just think that this new gay generation doesn't have a collective conscious as activists but that they are willing to standup for themselves: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/09/08/state/n012252D58.DTL
Cheers,
32 - JCB
Edit:
Nice read. I am glad that the new LGBT generation is definitely more comfortable in their skin. I think that's only true because of the activism of the past generation. I think that this new well-rounded generation of gay america is one of the biggest achievements of the movement of the past generation.
On the other hand, I don't think they will hinder the pace of the current gay movement and eventually they will probably end up doing some activism themselves. The fact of the matter is that congress has not been able to pass an Employment Non Discrimination Act (ENDA) or a nationwide hate crime policy. Ther'es still a lot to achieve.
I just think that this new gay generation doesn't have a collective conscious as activists but that they are willing to standup for themselves
Cheers,
33 - Les Slater
> On the other hand, I don't think they will hinder the pace of the current gay movement and eventually they will probably end up doing some activism themselves.
There is much left to be done, but what I see is the beginning of the end, of not only gay activism, but of gays themselves.
We will end up with a human community where sexual orientation will not be a significant factor in defining a person.
34 - Michael J. West
There is much left to be done, but what I see is the beginning of the end, of not only gay activism, but of gays themselves.
We will end up with a human community where sexual orientation will not be a
significant factor in defining a person.
And maybe to accomplish that end, what America now needs to see is not angry, agenda-obsessed activists. Maybe what they need to see is gay people who grow up into average, face-in-the-crowd Americans.
35 - Les Slater
> And maybe to accomplish that end, what America now needs to see is not angry, agenda-obsessed activists.
What will be, will be. There seems to be a trend though.
> Maybe what they need to see is gay people who grow up into average, face-in-the-crowd Americans.
The Time article (finally read it last night), shows that happening. Of course this is one view but I think it has much truth to it. The stereotypes now are being pushed by the sitcoms.
What is gay culture? It has a material base in society. As society changes, so will that base.
36 - Steve S
Maybe what they need to see is gay people who grow up into average, face-in-the-crowd Americans.
Tell them to visit my blog. It's all about gay parenting, book-a-thons, recipes, and is linked to other average gay families.
How do people not see us as average humans? What do they see us as?
37 - Les Slater
> How do people not see us as average humans?
Average is not used in a mathematical sense here. What is meant by not average is other than average, outside.
A white male has some difficulty in seeing a Black woman without mystifying both her Blackness and femininity. Part of this was dealt with in ‘Feminine Mystique’. This is also true of homosexuality. It is mystified, consciously or not, as being extra human.
38 - Steve S
how odd, we are demonized because we are mystified?
One thing that should be countered each and every time, is the use of the word lifestyle, as per comment 26.
Gay people raise kids, we attend pta meetings, we mow the lawn, we pay taxes, we keep the white picket fence painted. We do laundry, cook, clean, there's the gay lifestyle.
39 - Les Slater
> how odd, we are demonized because we are mystified?
Not always demonized, the flipside is glorification.
40 - Steve S
give me an example of somebody who glorifies gay people above the 'average human' please.
41 - Les Slater
> give me an example of somebody who glorifies gay people above the 'average human' please.
There are gay people, a part of the gay culture, that see themselves as superior to the average.
I am positive that there are heterosexuals that glorify gayness. It is still a mystification.
This is also true of heterosexuality. It ain’t what it’s huffed and puffed up to be. It is also mystified. The flipside here is that it is, in fact, looked down upon by some gays.
42 - Michael J. West
I think you missed the tack I was taking, Steve S. When I said, "average, face-in-the-crowd Americans," I meant for all those adjectives to be lumped together. I wasn't talking about average human beings, just about average face-in-the-crowd Americans.
Because the Average Joe in America is not a political activist, doesn't go to protests and rallies and Pride parades. He doesn't much care about them one way or the other.
You say, "Gay people raise kids, we attend pta meetings, we mow the lawn, we pay taxes, we keep the white picket fence painted. We do laundry, cook, clean, there's the gay lifestyle."
This is true. But I suspect a large number of Americans also see "political agitation" as part of the gay lifestyle, and rightly or wrongly finds it a bit grating.
But for the up-and-coming generation, there's less to agitate for: their peers respect their social and political rights. Studies show that a majority of people currently under 25 even support gay marriage.
So I'm saying, maybe the best political tack is to simply live life without so much fanfare about it. I'm saying that maybe the best strategy for the next generation of gay Americans is to say, "Look, we're trying to get by in life just like you, and we're not getting in your face about our rights to marry and adopt kids. We're NOT rabid and one-track-mind activits, we're real people with real lives.
"So since you can see that we're just regular Americans, isn't it okay to finally let us get married and have kids like regular Americans?"
Does that make sense?
43 - Steve S
I understand what you are saying Michael, I just disagree.
44 - Michael J. West
Disagree away. :-) We can argue all we want about what the next generation of gay Americans should do, but in the end they'll do whatever they want. :-)
45 - Steve S
Too true. I would just hope they remember that gay people have been around for thousands if not millions of years. I say thousands because we know from ancient art/pottery, etc. but it's certainly most likely that we've been around since caveman days.
And up until Stonewall, we did just live our lives. And look where it got us after all that time. If people just sat around, waiting for equality, we'd be sittin and waitin for several hundred more years at least.
And I hope gay youth keeps in mind that some people, and that currently includes people in power, will never see acceptance, even if you live your life as an 'average face-in-the-crowd'. Consider that celebrity status aside, Ellen could be exactly that average face, but she is referred to as Ellen Degenerate. And she doesn't attend pride parades in chaps or lobby on Capitol Hill. But she is still demonized. I blog about my average life about raising my child and I'm demonized right here at BlogCritics with calls for my family to be ripped apart for the well being of my child.
The average heterosexual face-in-the-crowd wears their sexuality on their sleeve. It is exhibited in wedding announcements in the paper, in spousal photos on the office desk, by public displays of affection, by holding each other while standing in line, etc.
It's done without thought, it's not done to make a statement. The same for the 'average' homosexual, however it generates a completely different response.
I hope our gay youth is not lulled into a sense of complacency, for future generations sake.
46 - Silas Kain
We had this discussion last night, Steve, and one of my boys brought up a point I never considered. Let me throw it out to you. Do you think that the real gay activists in the next generation won't be gays, themselves, per se, but their children? Is it the PFLAG generation that will do more to achieve equality as our children become adults? Will our best weapon against the random bigotry and hate be our kids? I'm sure you know, through your daughter, that our kids for the most part are well adjusted human beings with a great capacity for all that is good in humanity. Will it be their example that opens the eyes of those who don't see?
47 - Michael J. West
It's done without thought, it's not done to make a statement. The same for the 'average' homosexual, however it generates a completely different response.
I hope our gay youth is not lulled into a sense of complacency, for future
generations sake.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but the responses you're talking about are those of your generation and its predecessors. All indications are that among those currently under 30, things like gay wedding announcements and spouse photos in the office DO NOT generate a hostile response. They're not even seen as out-of-the-ordinary.
When you say you hope gay youth doesn't become complacent, are you saying that you hope they don't begin to take their social acceptance for granted? I thought that's the point we WANTED to get to--one in which homosexuals could take their acceptance as much for granted as the heteros do.
Certainly, if I had a gay son, I would want him to be able to take it for granted that he'd be welcome as a member of society. And it cerainly sounds like he'd be welcome among his peers with little-to-no consideration of his sexual orientation.
48 - Steve S
combining posts:
Do you think that the real gay activists in the next generation won't be gays, themselves, per se, but their children?
well, most likely, if there is a need. I do see gay activism as fading out with a generation but mostly because of the (hopeful) rising backlash against the fundamentalism that is going on. That and a lot of it's 'leaders' are beginning to face indictments and it's tied with a failed foreign policy, etc. It's losing steam.
I see if there is a push for a secular state, it will solve gay issues overall, rather than having to resolve all gay issues (workforce/military/marriage, etc.) individually. So I see gay rights being 'dropped from having a need to exist' by solving a much bigger issue, actually.
Because of the inherent nature of homosexuality and religion, I don't think there will ever be true equality as long as religion is allowed to play a factor in civic/state matters. At least not any religion that condemns homosexuality.
When you say you hope gay youth doesn't become complacent, are you saying that you hope they don't begin to take their social acceptance for granted?
No, I'm saying I hope they don't take the advice of just sitting back and chilling out, waiting for equality to be given to them, when people get around to dealing with their prejudices. It doesn't work that way.
49 - Steve S
I think as long as there is religion in government, there is a need for gay rights. The sentiment of the majority should not matter, it would be great if they would be supportive and it's great that it's becoming that way, but ultimately when it comes to human rights, majority rule should not be a factor.
50 - Michael J. West
Steve,
Fair enough.
I suspect that they'll handle it on a wait-and-see basis. That is, if they discover a need to become activists, they will. But right now it seems as though they don't see that need, so why put pressure on them to become activists anyway?
51 - Steve S
I don't know what you mean by your question. I don't pressure anybody to become an activist and am unaware of any 'movement' within my community that pressures anybody to be an activist.
52 - Michael J. West
I wasn't addressing you personally, Steve. It was a rhetorical question.
I was reiterating my point in the original post, a response to the TIME article that is largely about the gay movement, the expectations it places on gay kids' shoulders to become activists, and the fact that gay kids aren't particularly interested.
Folks, nothing I've written, either in the comments or in the original post, should be interpreted as a personal accusation or attack. It's all intended as straightforward, intellectual discussion.
53 - Steve S
I didn't take anything as an accusation or attack. I don't know what the article means by expectations it places on gay kids shoulders.
We, of one generation, hope the torch is passed, but I know of no mounted effort to force such. Perhaps Time knows something I don't though.
With numerous states having voters vote to amend constitutions to discriminate and delegate gay people as second-class citizens, and make life beyond being single and alone much more difficult, I wonder though, what gay youth see as important enough to become activist about?
54 - Michael J. West
Good questions, Steve. I can't answer them.
Why not pick up a copy of TIME? It's still the current issue, I believe...
As for what gay youth see as important enough to become activist about, I can't answer that either. Really, only gay youths can.
It may just be that since they're largely at an age where marriage seems miles away, they can't relate to same-sex marriage (or lack thereof).
55 - Justin R
I read the discussion above with great interest. I see the points of both sides. I'm 20, gay, and go to college in Boston. I guess that puts me among "the next generation" of gay youth. Am I an activist? Yes and no. I've given money, written letters to Congress, attended Pride, but I've never been to a protest or been on the payroll of an activist group.
I would agree with Michael that the current generation of gay youth sees less discrimination and has fewer incentives to become activist. It's true that we just want to live our lives without having to sacrifice every move we make to "The Movement".
But I also know that without the movement I would not have the luxury of making that choice. Here on my campus there are hundreds of gay people, but only about ten to twelve a week show up to the university's on-campus GLBT group meeting. Most people are more interested in other things than to spend their time fighting for acceptance in a city that already accepts them. We mostly just want to have fun.
On the other hand, Steve makes the excellent point that complacency is a danger because, cultural acceptance notwithstanding, this is still a deeply conservative nation (at the moment) and there are a great many people who are trying to reverse that acceptance. I would submit that gay activism and anti-gay activism are inversely related: as one winds down because it is "no longer needed", the other feels threatened and revs up for battle. There is also a significant regional effect; one is much more likely to see the need for activism living in Roy Moore's Alabama than in San Francisco or New York (or Boston).
So I suppose my conclusion is that even though many may feel there is a decreasing need for the gay "movement" or "community", such community occurs naturally and the need for activism, at least in some form, is likely to continue for the forseeable future.
56 - Steve S
well said, Justin. I have been involved in the gay community my whole life practically and have no knowledge of any pressure to be an activist or to join a movement, but I realize that doesn't mean that isn't the case.
So I guess I would just point out my thought about comments like this:
...is grooming/expecting/pressuring them to become the next generation of hardcore activists.
made in the original post, although I'm unsure if it's in the Time article or not. But I wonder exactly how neutral any reporting is with comments like that. What exactly is a hardcore activist? You either believe in marriage or you don't. You either work for it or you don't. Where does the hardcore come into play? Is there anyone out there working for forced marriage? I would define a hardcore activist as someone who blockades cathedral doors or, well, I dunno, but I don't know of any 'hardcore' activism going on right now.
All I see are people fighting for the right to be married and an article saying maybe that isn't necessary, just wait and cut out the 'hardcore' stuff.
57 - Silas Kain
Thanks, Justin. If you're representative of the new generation coming up, we're in good hands.
58 - Michael J. West
Wow. Thanks, Justin; with your comment here, I really can't think of anything else to say.
59 - Steve S
an update is in order about this Time article, there is important information completely left out of this review.
I wondered about the bias of the article when I read 'hardcore activists', as I noted in comment 56.
The 'poster boy' for gay youth, the boy on the cover of Time, was interviewed while he was at a Christian camp attempting to deal with his homosexual feelings.
He came away from the camp with the decision that homosexuality is a choice, so no wonder he doesn't want to fight for equality. He's all messed up inside.
source
60 - Michael J. West
Steve S, I don't know if you're accusing me of bias or not, but I hope you don't object if I defend myself:
- I had absolutely no idea that the kid on the cover was Corey Clark. Nothing in the article identifies Clark as the cover subject.
- Despite being on the cover, Clark plays an EXTREMELY small role in the article. In fact, he appears in one paragraph of an eight-page feature.
-The points he made, both in the TIME article and the source you provided, do nothing to detract from either the article or my review thereof. From the TIME article:
"Corey Clark, 18, belongs to his GSA at Governor Mifflin Senior High in Shillington, Pa., and says he sees nothing wrong with being gay. He attended Youth Day because he wanted to better understand his evangelical church and friends who say he should change."
(NOT, as you suggest, to deal with his homosexuality."
And in the article you linked to, he didn't REALLY say that homosexuality is a choice. He said that you choose whether to ACT on your homosexual instincts. He also noted that he came away from the camp with NO INTENTION of changing his homosexuality.
“I want to be happy,” he said. “If being gay makes me happy, who is anyone to tell me it's wrong?
“Let me live this life and pray it goes right in the end.”
61 - Casie
LES,
Yes I was attrcted to women at an early age. No I am not attracted to women now. GOD has delievered me from a homosexual lifestyle. I had been involved with a men before living a gay lifestyle. It had NO effect on me choosing to live gay. I did not think at the time that a man is whom I was to be with. For many years I believed I was born gay! I now know that I am not born gay NOR is anyone else born homosexual. I believe that things happen to a person to lead them to live a homosexual lifestyle. GOD does not create people to be gay. HE loves all but HE does not accept homosexuality. It was not hard ot give up the gay lifestyle due to the fact that I was so broken. I was dying and lost and I was in need of a Saviour! That is when I came to Teen Challenge. GOD used it to change my life around. IF you are interested any more Id be glad to shre my testimony with you!
May you be blessed,
Casie
62 - Casie
I a=say lifestyle due to the fact that it is a lifestyle. GOD did not make anyone gay. I was gay for many years. I had a girlfriend and I lived a miserable live. I know that you can not understand until you have had a revelation! I chose to live like that due to my childhood. I did not comment to put anyone down. I love all on here and my pray is that you all be set free by the love of Jesus Christ. I can toally understand you all. I lived a crazy hard life. I have seen it all and done it all. I do not comdemn anyone for the way he/she chooses to live!
63 - MCH
Casie;
What about the millions of gays who had normal, happy childhoods, who say that they were born gay, and did not choose their sexual preference?
64 - Joey
There's one small problem.... if it is really a problem.
Gay people can't procreate. Not a bad thing, if leaving a legacy isn't your thing. But there are extreame and cultural biased towards gay folk adopting children to raise... if they choose to not procreate by being gay and not having the abilities of relegated to amphibians. As perverse as it may sound.... if you are gay, you chose NOT to leave offspring. That's natural, and it's Darwinian... now which way do you want it. Both ways? Isn't that odd?
65 - Luke
Casie, you're just a sellout, what the hell is wrong with being a lesbian, most people think it's cool, at least I do, as long as they're lipstick lesbians and not the butch variety, C'mon, you know you still wanna tap that hot fem ass. You were probably miserable because you live in hillbilly buttfuxville, miserable is what you'd be if you did the other thing that religious hillbillies don't like, date a black fella. You don't even need to be a lesbian, some girls just do it for the fun of it, and I really can't blame them either, from a dudes perspective, I can't figure out why girls like guys in the first place, if I was a girl I'd sure as hell be a lesbian, and get into hot kinky lesbian orgies with all kinds of toys melted candle wax and golden syrup.
66 - Steve S
Casie is entitled to be miserable in one life and find happiness in another. HOwever it's wrong to assume that what works for her works for others.
She says she was miserable in a lesbian lifestyle. Then get out of it. Good thing you did.
Just because you were miserable doesn't mean others are. many of us are quite comfortable being true to our inner selves.
While you can go on spouting your opinion that God condemns homosexuality, many of us have also read the bible too and see a great many things that God condemns including women wearing makeup. We do not respect the opinions of hypocrites, so you are entitled to your opinion and we are entitled to ours. And with that, God Bless.
Michael (comment 60), no, I'm not accusing you of anything. I have come to the conclusion though, from what I've gathered here and elsewhere, that the Time article is biased.
NOT, as you suggest, to deal with his homosexuality."
well, granted, that's what is said and so we have to take it at face value, however, I am suspect about anyone who joins anything designed to help you overcome what they perceive as an addiction or a disease, just to browse around and see what's happenin. So I retract that statement but not the feeling that caused me to say it.
He said that you choose whether to ACT on your homosexual instincts.
yes, but anybody who thinks about it for a moment knows that when it comes to emotional intimacy with another person or a lifetime of solitude, there really isn't a choice. Not a realistic one anyway. All humans need love.
67 - Steve S
Gay people can't procreate.
we can, we do, and we did.
68 - Silas Kain
Gay people can't procreate.
Too many straight people procreate for the wrong reasons. Gay people CAN procreate and DO procreate. These children they create are wanted, celebrated, nurtured and revered. They are appreciated. So, in the final analysis, those gays who DO procreate have not only received a precious gift, they're giving one to the world.
69 - Michael J. West
I have come to the conclusion though, from what I've gathered here and elsewhere, that the Time article is biased.
But have you read the TIME article itself? If not, your conclusion that it's biased isn't exactly a fair one.
70 - Steve S
But have you read the TIME article itself?
yes, I don't get the bias from just reading the article, per se, (except for keywords that I've mentioned already that set warning bells off), but it's the extraneous info left OUT of the interview that leads me to believe it's biased.
I'm entitled to my opinion of course, as you are entitled to yours. Of the gay blogs I visit that discuss this topic, it seems to be about 50/50. (reception of the article)
71 - Steve S
addendum: although the sentiment on the blogs is about 80% are leaning towards the fact the youth interviewed are too naive about life.
72 - Casie
I apologize if I have offened anyone. THAT is not my attention at all. I care about everyone. I know the truth and that is all. I said all that I said in hopes that someone would want to know the truth. May Jesus Christ Bless you
73 - Casie
Steve to be such a happy person you sure are defensive. I pray that you will come to know the truth one day. GOD wishes none would perish!
74 - Michael J. West
OK, Steve. I had the misimpression that you hadn't read the article, just read ABOUT it. You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
I'm not sure if I agree that the kids are too naive about life (which I'm hard-pressed to say, being firm in my belief that teenagers don't know anything), I guess we'll find out before too long.
75 - Steve S
Steve to be such a happy person you sure are defensive
perhaps it's your comments.
I know the truth and that is all.
you know the truth that works for you casie. And you make blanket statements that it is the only truth for all.
The truth is different for everybody. I am happy Casie. I have a wonderful husband and a wonderful child. That is MY truth.