I was browsing over at Blogcritics when one of the writers commented on how obvious it was that no one was commenting on it save for this one post.
I have to admit, I did get a little angry.
I'm reposting my response to that post here because it's worthy enough in an of itself as an entry. It's how I truly feel. This entry also includes very graphic photos... not the ones most the media aired. I'm posting them so you can see EXACTLY what happened in Fallujah. THESE are pictures of HAPPY IRAQIS. THESE are pictures when you have a total failure as commander and chief of the US.
What is the point in any of us addressing it? It won't matter. We'll still be told how "The War In Iraq" was a good thing. "The Happy Iraqis", etc, etc, etc...
I'll repost my comments from BHW's post here because I think it sums it up very clearly:
It goes back to this:
There are a lot of actual Iraqis in Iraq.
There are a lot of guns in Iraq.
When are the "Iraqis in general" with guns going to turn on the "specific elements within Iraq " which are behaving like uncivilized shits and keep blowing the Americans who are trying to help the "Iraqis in general"? Really, where are the mass walks and demonstrations of Iraqis who are FOR the US?? Hmmm?
They're cowards? Fear of retaliation? Then if you cannot fight for YOUR OWN FREEDOM, you do not deserve it. Period.
American Troops should not be used to fight someone else's war... be it the president's or the Iraqis. I know some people will roll their eyes at me saying what I always say but that doesn't make it any less true:Where was the US in all the other counties that had "problems" and tyrants before now? Nigeria? Etreia? Rwanda? North Korea? Cuba? Guatemala? ETC... ETC... Why are the Iraqis any more "special"? At least in the other countries I named, save for Cuba and North Korea, you had the people fighting their own wars. What the HELL has Iraq done?
FUCK ALL.
So what am I going to say when our boys and girls, both civilian and military get shot, burned up, and mutilated? We're doing this for the deserving happy Iraqis because you know in the long run, the US will be oh so much better off.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Craig Lyndall
They should show these on the news. I hadn't really thought about it much until I saw these pictures.
In this country's worst moments in the last 50 years, I don't think we have ever seen anyone commit an atrocity like this. Never. Maybe it is my ignorance and sheltered life here in the U.S. but these pictures make me want to cry and then they make me want to do something very bad to someone.
2 - David Flanagan
Actually, those same exact atrocities were committed in Mogadishu. Remember "Black Hawk Down"? We now know that Al Qaeda was involved in bringing down two of our Black Hawks and helping to kill 18 of our soldiers.
So, by the same reasoning Ms. Tek, President Clinton was also a total failure as Commander in Chief. Except that Clinton very quickly pulled American troops from Mogadishu shortly after the incident, a move which many experts believe emboldened Al Qaeda and terrorist organizations all over the world.
Why do you think they did this to these poor souls? Because they want us to do exactly as you want to do, run away. If we run, then the terrorists have won yet another battle and will be emboldened again as they were in Mogadishu.
Fortunately for us, our current President has more resolve than the previous one.
One other point, the men in the pictures were not soldiers, they were private security guards who were guarding a food shipment. So, the fearsome terrorists killed those who were trying to give humanitarian aid to the Iraqis. Does this tell you NOTHING about the character of those whom we are dealing with?
And you want to run? I have many friends in the military, some of whom have been to Iraq, some who are and they all believe the same thing; they want to stay until the job is done.
David
3 - Ms. Tek
DAVID,
THIS IS NOT ABOUT CLINTON vs BUSH. GET OVER CLINTON ALREADY.
You have this HUGE BONER for CLINTON. It's totally a playbood... "Bring up Clinton". Guess what? Clinton is never coming back. EVER. Nothing to worry about there, David.
Mogadishu is NOT Iraq. And yes, he should have pulled troops out.
What happend in Iraq was NOT al Queda. (As were most things in Iraq until recently).
4 - Shark
David, I have a question for you:
In your mind, who was worse:
Clinton -- or -- Hussein?
(Just wonderin'...)
5 - Ms. Tek
ROFLMAO! >=D
6 - Al Barger
Your analysis in this column does not stand up to any scrutiny. Indeed, it does not really constitute "analysis." Mere anger does not constitute thinking.
Simply saying "fuck xxx" or "xxx is bullshit" does not constitute a valid argument. Indeed, it does not constitute any kind of argument at all. It is mere cursing.
Things that you state as "facts" simply aren't. For example, your statement that "Vietnam kicked America's ass." That statement simply does not conform to the facts.
Now, our involvement in Vietnam was probably a bad idea. It was executed very badly, sure. But we simply didn't have the WILL to win- which we perfectly well could have.
These actions in Fallujah don't represent the will or attitudes of a whole country. One could indeed argue that it is a racist sentiment to paint ALL Iraqis as being savages on the basis of the actions of these perhaps few hundred miscreants.
Still, though, thank you for posting these pictures. I had not seen them. The American public needs to see them in order to make an informed judgment on what we should do- whatever that judgment may ultimately be.
Personally, I'm disturbed more by the significant cheering crowds than by the desecrated bodies per se.
Leaving any personal emotions aside, it simply will not do for people to think that you can do this to Americans and get away with it. We'll have ten times worse problems there and HERE if this and these pictures go unanswered.
Fallujah must and will be pacified.
7 - RJ Elliott
The US "lost" in Vietnam because of propaganda by the anti-war Left. This propaganda crushed the morale of the military and reduced the public support needed to fight the Communists.
Posting photos like these, accompanied by the accusation that the Commander-in-Chief is a buffoon, seems to be an attempt at doing the same thing. Perhaps it isn't. But regardless of intent, the result will be weakened morale and reduced public support.
And that is exactly what the terrorists want.
8 - bhw
But regardless of intent, the result will be weakened morale and reduced public support.
RJ, read the comment just above yours. Al said exactly the opposite thing: his resolve to make someone pay has been strengthened.
Different people react to these pictures in different ways. Some want to pull our troops out now, and others want to stay and fight.
At the very least, all Americans have a right to see these photos and the reality and brutality of the situation over there.
And please don't blame the failure of the Vietnam war on the people back home who didn't want it fought. That's just so false -- talk about propaganda! We lost that war because of poor military strategy and execution -- we were not prepared for our enemy -- not because of a bunch of hippies carrying signs and protesting on college campuses. Without the protests and public pressure, more American lives would have been lost, not fewer, because the war would have continued longer.
9 - boomcrashbaby
source:
http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/teachviet/INTERV.html
On October 24, 1995 we interviewed Nelson Olf about his experience in the Vietnam War. We asked him to give his reasoning's to why the United States lost the war. He said the first reason was that the U.S. went into a country that really did not want us to be there. By going into Vietnam we tried to build up a country who could never stand on their own, and we could not support them forever. Because of this, the war was lost from the beginning.
The U.S. lost the war politically because of America seeing the truth on tv, and America didn't like what it saw. That is why Bush doesn't want America to see what is happening in Iraq. Dust it under the rug.
The U.S. lost the war politically.
The U.S. won the war militarily.
So say many Vietnam vets.
10 - Ms. Tek
The U.S. lost the war politically.
The U.S. won the war militarily.
So say many Vietnam vets.
If you have to split hairs like that, it was a loss, pure and simple. The US pulled out because her ass was getting kicked. It doesn't matter why in this case because the fact is that it happened. A failure is still a failure when it comes down to the bottom line.
We are dealing with an entity (ies) that don't subscribe to Western way of thought. They will not be subduded. There's a ton of virgins waiting for them. Illogical notions abound. They are not ready to behave. This change can only come from within. For now, let them blow themselves up and when they are ready to really change, and have a civil war in their own country to route out from within the bad seeds, then, and only then should we help.
People seem to think the issue that no one is speaking up on the other side is unimportant. Even if the Iraqis are so apathetic to not even get involved, then that is still reason enough to say "Fine, why should I sort this out for you. Why should I spend my resources for something you clearly are not ready to deal with yet".
11 - boomcrashbaby
People seem to think the issue that no one is speaking up on the other side is unimportant.
The answer is simple Ms. Tek. We never went in to 'free' the Iraqi people. That's just the reason we gave though. They never asked us to free them.
12 - Ms. Tek
My point exactly. As I said, since the WMD/Terrorism (pre inavasion) reasons fell thought, the mindless moved on to the "poor iraqi" bullshit.
13 - boomcrashbaby
so maybe consider when we see Iraqis cheering in the streets over the plight of America soldiers how it would be in this country if we were 'liberated' by another country that we did not ask to liberate us. Personally, I would never do anything like what the Iraqis do, but it isn't hard to imagine that plenty of Americans would. After all, we are a violent society.
(On a second note, I do pray nightly that Kerry will liberate us and I might dance in the street if he gets to, but I don't own any weapons and I don't harm anything with less than 6 legs).
14 - Ms. Tek
I just cannot see Americans doing the same thing... and if they did, no one tearing into the people who did it.
At least, I know if I saw someone mutilating a body, I'd beat the hell out of them, if not shoot them myself.
Kill combatants if you must. I have no problem with this. Such is the price of war. Hanging the severed heads of my slain enemies on the end of my pikes is very old school i.e. barbaric.
15 - RJ Elliott
Kerry may well "liberate" the US in 2005, but the result will be the certain "un-liberation" of Iraq.
Anyway, the point isn't whether we should have gone there in the first place. We are there now. To retreat would be horrific. The terrorists would be emboldened that the US is weak. More attacks against the West would come. And against the US.
Somalia's massacre led the terrorists to believe the US was weak. I hope they are not right.
16 - RJ Elliott
"Kill combatants if you must. I have no problem with this."
These were not "combatants." They were non-military personnel guarding a shipment of freakin' food to feed the people of that hellish city.
Only scum would do such a thing. The US military is not retreating from these scum. They are about to eliminate them.
The city is surrounded. The guilty shall be crushed. And the idea that we should abandon the entire country due to a few atrocities plays directly into the hands of the terrorists.
17 - boomcrashbaby
Hanging the severed heads of my slain enemies on the end of my pikes is very old school i.e. barbaric.
I completely agree. But so is bashing your child's head in with a rock, or drowning your children in a lake, or strapping someone to a freezing fence post with their skull split open because you don't like their orientation, or putting to death a mentally ill person (source Blogcritics Dan Gillmor).
I could go on ad nauseum, but the point is I don't know how America would act under an occupation, all I can picture is a truckload of rednecks with 'God Bless The USA' blaring on the a.m. dial and an empty gun rack on the back. My experience in this country is that it's pretty violent. (but before somebody tells me to leave, I still love this country and I still think it's the best).
18 - RJ Elliott
I disagree with the premise that putting (humanely) to death a convicted murderer who is "insane" or "retarded" is anything akin to dragging the bodies of civilians through the streets, to be burned and hung from a friggin' bridge, while teenagers watch and dance.
You may disagree with the death penalty. I myself am abivilent. But this is a far cry from the atrocities in Iraq. Such comparisons are bereft of logic.
19 - Ms. Tek
Boomcrash, all the examples that you have given as far as I know were done not in witness of ordinary folk. All these things were done under the cover of night or in private. Not in broad daylight in front of a whole town with the media crew called in a head of time.
I do think we are violent, and I will never speak for rednecks but even so... if a bunch of rednecks came up to Chicago and tried it, they would be delt with. I'l like to beleive that there ARE SOME DECENT folk everywhere in the country that if they see something wrong, will speak up. I cannot speak for things done in private or under cover of night.
20 - boomcrashbaby
Then drop that comparison, the rest and plenty more that I haven't listed still apply.
21 - boomcrashbaby
True, Ms. Tek. I cannot come up with a completely 100% analogous example, because America isn't occupied by a foreign power. To both you and RJ, and anybody else reading, I am not trying to compare atrocities. I am trying to illustrate that we are a violent nation, and IF we were occupied, I do believe that the majority of us would be repulsed by such violent activity, as I believe a large part of Iraqis are. Whether we would try to stop the 'rednecks' or not is moot, as we won't know until/if it happens. Not to sound like a coward, but I don't own a gun. If there was a group of rednecks dismembering a dead body, I would be more concerned with removing myself and my family from a potentially dangerous situation than anything else. We don't know how we, as a nation, would react in a situation we have never encountered.
22 - Ms. Tek
Ah...I own several knives and a gun (shhhhh... you're not supposed to have them in Chicago... Illegal unless working for a licence agency which I am not at the moment).
I know how we would act. We riot.
23 - RJ Elliott
Why are "rednecks" being singled out here? Are only Rural Southern White Men capable of atrocities in America?
24 - Agentsmith
These pictures serve as a graphic reminder of what a gruesome situation the American soldiers are subjected to.
This makes me wonder if Bush senior was right to pull out of Iraq early.
IMHO the situation can only get much worse. This is not a racist comment but people from that region and religion tend to want the maximum degree of violence imposed both upon themselves and their enemies in situations of conflict. Surely it must have something to do with the culture.
Using Hamas as an example, if you put yourself in their state of mind, they truly believe that they are doing something just and honorable dying or their cause. Their methods are gruesome but it is justified and endorsed.
Vietnam is not even close to being a parallel. After years of atrocities and loss of families and homes, I have rarely heard of terrorist activities from the Vietnamese against the Americans. I am not even aware of any violent acts against Americans.
IMHO The only way out for this situation is to get out. You just cannot win by losing.
25 - boomcrashbaby
Most rednecks I know have a 'God Bless the USA' attitude (national pride is a good thing, don't misunderstand me) and I see them as using their NRA sanctioned guns to go after the occupiers while the rest of the country would probably be clearing out the store shelves?
This comment here "if you put yourself in their state of mind, they truly believe that they are doing something just and honorable" by AgentSmith is what I was trying to do.