Which is the real Mel Gibson? Well, I would have to say that the real Mel Gibson is the person who, in his heart, he truly desires to be.
Mel Gibson was arrested for drunk driving the other day. The police who arrested him described his uncooperative behavior, his repeated use of the "f**k" word and his making several clearly anti-Semitic statements.…
Article comments
26 - kanrei
#26 Comment:
I am not complaining about people who have bad things to say about Israel and say "Israelis" which it sounds like you did. I am talking about people who are lumping all the world's Jews together when condemning Israel. I am Jewish, yet do not support Israel right now, so it would be incorrect to say "the Jews". That was my point.
27 - Les Slater
Douglas Mays #25
"political correctness is resposible for perpetuating all racism in the world"
I have to admit that 'political correctness' is an intimidating stricture. It has a degree of progressive as well as reactionary character to it.
Some negative reaction to it is healthy, however when I see such as the above quoted statement I get a little more than suspicious.
Anti 'political correctness' is often raised as a licence to publically flirt with sexism, racism or other reactionary dogma.
28 - Bird of Paradise
Aloha to you all. I was not aware that I was defending Mel Gibson with this post. I have clearly stated that his comments were "offensive and disgusting." In response to Michael (#1) I do not believe that this French proverb is a very reliable guide to follow. I have spent much time with the terminally ill and have known many personality changes as disease or medications impact the brain. Normally shy people swear and yell, stressed and angry people become calm and mellow, people of strong faith curse God and atheists embrace God. For me this reveals far more about the workings of the human mind/brain than it does the character or beliefs of the person. Alcohol acts in similar ways in many people.
As far as .12 being "hardly drunk" and therefore not a significant enough factor to explain Gibson's outburst . . . those who work with alcoholics or who are alcoholics know that this is completely fallacious. Even a small amount of alcohol triggers the "disease" process and wrecks havoc with the normal functioning of their brain.
I am also not denying that Gibson has "thought" these things before. I have "thought" them myself and so have every one of you! Whenever we hear someone express such thoughts we "think" it, too. Most of us have disciplined ourselves to react with disgust and disapproval. But the very fact that we have considered the thought in the past and chosen to reject it is double proof that we have "thought" this before.
There is all sorts of "garbage" stored in our minds. When the circuitry of our brain is whacked with alcohol, etc. it does not always function according to our personal desires or beliefs.
As for Scott Johnson (who I greatly admire, by the way) my meaning would have been better conveyed if I had "given him a pebble to tap himself on his head." A symbolic gesture and no more.
As far as the accusation that I was suggesting that "Abraham Foxman publically humiliate himself" (comment #3) I believe that he has already done so without any help from me insofar as his words themselves (spoken while sober) appear to embrace the thought on his "button."
Kanrei (#15): You have "been drunk many times." Why?
David (#4): I was not aware that I was a "Christian activist." But now that you have pointed it out to me I will have to give some thought to whether that is true or not. Hmmm....No, I don't think so.
I am also not convinced by your carefully crafted argument that I am a Christian conservative, either. I think I am just a simple, run-of-the-mill sort of Christian. You know what I mean...the kind of Christian who finds no righteousness in themself at all but only in Jesus. The kind of Christian that takes Jesus seriously when he commands (not suggests) that we love one another as he loved us (including our enemies who we are told to pray for), to respond to hurtful experiences with others by offering them forgiveness (in the hope of making peace with them), to accept that we are no less a "sinner" than most other folks, and to not be too quick to condemn someone unless we have made every effort possible to understand them and to give them opportunities to make changes in their thoughts and behavior for the better. Including Mel Gibson.
I admit that those of the Jewish faith & "race" are those who have the right to be most offended by Gibson's commets. Since I am not a Jew I am in no position to "forgive him" for his commnets. His behavior creates its own consequences and, in this case, because of his stature and personal beliefs, his behavior has affected a great many people.
Accordingly my personal interest is not so much in Mel Gibson as it is in how other people are choosing to respond to this incident.
By the way, I am not saying that any of you are wrong or right in your opinions. I am simply expressing my own so as to give you all an opportunity to express yours! So far you are doing this quite nicely, thank you very much!
29 - Scott Butki
I think Michael nails it:
There's an old French proverb that goes, "A man never says anything while drunk that he hasn't thought while sober." I don't know how much stock you want to put in that, but there it is.
In my experience alcohol exaggerates emotion - making you happier if you are happy, more outgoing, more depressed if you are down, etc.
I recall having a crush on a woman and calling
her answering machine from a party, leaving flirtatious message so long that the tape ran out.
I never would have done that sober but it was an extension of my thoughts.
What it does not do is cause thoughts which were not previously there.
Blaming the alcohol for Gibson's stupid racist drunk comments seems a bit like blaming a gun for a shooting spree - in other words, a cop out.
30 - Baronius
Scott, you're not a mean drunk.
It's true for many people that "in vino veritas" (in wine there is truth). But mean drunks are different. A mean drunk can be the nicest guy in the world - sober. But when he gets drinking, he becomes a bully. It doesn't take much alcohol, either. It may take more drinks to get a heavy drinker inebriated, but from what I've seen, the personality change can be lightning quick.
A mean drunk will say or do anything to assert dominance. From what I've heard, Gibson also insulted a female officer with misogynistic comments. If there'd been a gay officer involved, we'd be reading about Gibson's homophobia.
I'm not condoning his actions; if anything, he has a greater responsibility than the average .12 driver, because he knows what happens if he gets near the bottle. But it really is a stretch to assume that he's anti-semetic.
31 - Victor A. Anastasia
Honestly! It amazes me how judgemental people can be! Even the Bible says, "Eccl.7:22 For oftentimes also thine own heart knoweth that thou thyself likewise hast cursed others." "Proverbs 30:32 If thou hast done foolishly in lifting up thyself, or if thou hast thought evil, lay thine hand upon thy mouth." That's why the Bible is said to be full of wisdom. Get over it and get over yourself. We ALL have been foolish in the past.
32 - Victor Lana
All I have to say about this Gibson atrocity is this:
In Tequila Veritas!
33 - Scott Butki
Well, it'd be easier to withhold judgement if it wasn't for former antisemitic comments and actions from him and his father on prior occasions.
34 - Scott Butki
Incidentally anyone remember the South Park episode where they meet Mel Gibson and he's a raving lunatic.
It's sounding like they captured what he's like when drunk.
35 - Bird of Paradise
Aloha, I came across this quote from Gibson's arresting officer this morning--as quoted in an AP article: "(Officer) Mee also said he didn't take any of Gibson's remarks seriously. 'That stuff is booze talking,' the deputy said."
At least somebody agrees with me!
36 - Vern Halen
I think thoughts and actions need to be separated here. For instance, thinking how you'd like to kill someone isn't a crime. Do ing it is - even mentioning it out loud can qualify as uttering a threat, but they'd have to prove in court that you weren't just joking around.
Theh question is here is this: are Mr. Gibson's words considered to be a thought or an action? Were they to be taken seriously? I don't know, really, but Mel seems to think because of his celebrity, he should have been more careful. It's a place to start, anyways.
37 - Thomas M. Sipos
I don't mind people condemning Mel for what he said.
I do mind that if a celebrity had said, "Christians are responsible for [fill in any equivalent insult here]," it would have been shrugged off. It might even have been considered "edgy" or "hip."
38 - Jeff
re: #35 - sure the officer "agrees" with you - he's in the middle of a national media firestorm involving a cover-up for one of the most powerful and wealthy men in his community orchestrated by his superiors! If he values his pension, he'd be a fool to say anything BUT "it was the booze talking".
And yes, you DID defend Mel Gibson. I quote:
"Mel Gibson was arrested for drunk driving the other day. The police who arrested him described his uncooperative behavior, his repeated use of the "f**k" word and his making several clearly anti-Semitic statements."
"Apparently, this somehow "proves" that Mel Gibson is an anti-Semite."
"No it doesn't. All it proves is that Mel Gibson was drunk."
So if Mel Gibson had run over someone while drunk I suppose that wouldn't actually prove that he was irresponsible, but "just drunk?" Or if he had forced himself on "sugar tits," that wouldn't prove he was a rapist, it would only prove he "was drunk," right?
This reminds me a lot of your post "Three Things About Islam," where you imply that Islam and its adherents are inherently violent and a clear threat to "Western Civilization," then go on (in response #22 of the same post) to recite "an ode to diversity" about American society, in particular citing the country's history as a haven for immigrants from many different backgrounds - and respect for those differences - as being one of the main reasons why we all enjoy our rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" here
Yet anyone who has actually read you blog knows better. Some thumbnail summaries of your more odious rants:
* "NY Times Publisher's Short List of "Fundamental Human Rights" ("People only have the rights that my interpretation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights say that they do.")
* "Monday's "Immigration" Demonstrations Joined By Muslim Groups & Organized By Marxists" ("People who believe in immigration reform are terrorists and communists.")
* "The Fourth Estate as Fifth Column" ("The media are terrorists and communists. Except for Fox News.")
* "Two Reasons Why Palestine Should Be Left For The Wolves" ("When are three million people not really people? When they're Palestinians!")
* "Salon.com Offers Abu Ghraib Photos In Exchange for Their Soul" ("How dare the media expose U.S. hypocrisy? They must be terrorists and communists!")
...to name a few.
All I can say is: Matthew 23:13-27.
39 - Douglas Mays
Les, I have to get out of this thread, it involves religion. I have zero knowledge in order to debate that subject. All I am saying is that until Mel Gibson acts on stupid words of hate (hate is a heavy word) I am not going to judge him as such.
I mean, the fucking Catholics are responsible for all traffic jams in the world....Jews responsible for all wars? The Jews didn't have too much to do with the US Civil War, did they?
Do you see? Mel's words are comedy when you get down to it. Whether he knows it or not. Otherwise, Mel Brooks could sure be viewed as a Jew hater after viewing "Blazing Saddles"
Anyway, I have to get out of this thread. Let me go find some rock n roll or soccer articles. Or some good 'ol politics...Well, this one was a human issue, I had to jump in. That whole pre-judged religious thing, ugh....
40 - Richard Marcus
I'm an alcoholic and drug addict who has been clean for twelve years. I hold myself accountable for everything I said and did during the twenty years that I wasn't clean. If I can do that so can Mel.
Drugs and booze do not excuse a person's behaviour in criminal court, in fact usually you are held even more accountable for your actions becuase you willfully gave up the means of having controll over them.
I don't know whether Mr. Gibson is anti-jewish or not, and quite frankly I don't care. But it should never be acceptable to use being an addict as an excuse for inexcusable behaviour. A sign of being an addict is being repentant and saying you'll do better the next time.
Actions speak louder then words - If Mr. Gibson is sincere there will not be a next time, if he isn't we will see this again or something simillar.
Richard Marcus
41 - Les Slater
Doug #39,
I am not condemning you. My original comments were not directed at you, nor was I condemning Mr. B. Paradise.
Jew hatred runs deep. It is very difficult not to be affected by, and absorb some of it. It is however very dangerous.
Mr. Gibson committed no crime in expressing his views. The police have no business making any issue of it.
What he said about Jews being responsible for wars is a widely held belief, especially by the left these days.
Be on guard!
Les
42 - Les Slater
What Mr. Gibson said SHOULD be CONDEMNED, and not EXCUSED.
43 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Gibson is an anti-Semite. Let's be more blunt. he is a Jew-hater. That's bottom line. His movie "The Passion" allowed him to express his Jew-hatred one way - his drunken remarks another. This should neither be forgotten nor forgiven. Put differently, his works should be boycotted by us Jews. Never mind the condemnations, the excuses or his "I'm sorry's."
He is an enemy of the Jewish people and ought to be treated as such. That means no money from my pocket goes into his. If his actions begin to threaten my life, or the life of other Jews, well I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
For me, this is where the issue begins and ends.
44 - Douglas Mays
Thanks Les, I hate hate....
45 - Martin Lav
I told my wife that I hated her one time when I was drunk.
I told my kids that they were lazy fucking idiots.
I told my boss that his wife had great tits and that I'd love to squeeze them.
I can go on and on.....then I got sober.
Did I mean all of these things, even a little, maybe, but that doesn't make me louse or a pervert, it makes me a person with a disease that by it's very nature tells me that I do not have the disease.
We should judge Mr. Mel Gibson by what he does next, while sober and not what he did in the past and drunk.
46 - return
Lets look at some famous christins:
Hitler
Mel Gibson
George Bush
47 - Martin Lav
Pope John Paul II?
Jesus?
48 - Matthew T. Sussman
Nope. Just those three.
49 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Martin,
Jesus was a Jew. Us Yids manage to sneak in everywhere, don't we - even into other people's religions...
50 - Condor
Who really gives a shit about anything to do with Hollyweird?
There's a whole lot of real world out which is in need of some serious attention.
51 - Martin Lav
Groovy,
I guess you're right, but I don't think he was practicing the absurd teachings of the time and would be appalled by the practices/teachings/observances of the so-called Christianity that supposedly stemmed from him that's practiced today.
μακαριος;
52 - rob
If Mel had said anti-christian things,nobody would say a word about it.
53 - Martin Lav
Christianity, by its nature, is anti-Semitic.
The Vatican in particular, wants to control Jerusalem to play out its little drama of becoming the universal church of mankind.
--Ruvy in Jerusalem
Let's see if anyone says anything about these anti-christian remarks supposedly said while sober I presume.
54 - godoggo
My two bits, what the hell. My initial reaction was this: it's not like this was an isolated incident, there was alread plenty of evidence that he was a Jew-hater, obviously the alcohol had just removed his inhibitions, and that he was speaking from the heart.
Having thought it over, I now suspect the truth is somewhat closer to the following: he's an obnoxious, self-destructive drunk, well aware or his (deserved) reputation as an anti-Semite, who said the most obnoxious things that came to mind. I doubt that he literally believes that Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world. I doubt that he assumed the cop was a Jew (as has been pointed out, this is not consistent with the stereotype, after all). I do NOT doubt that he holds some vile beliefs about Jews.
Regarding Christianity, yes, there's a lot of anti-Jewish stuff in the New Testament, but various Christian groups have distanced themselves from it to various degrees, even going so far as to avoid the words "The Jews" in new bible translations. Gibson is of course a paleo-Catholic, and so has not distanced himself from it at all. There's also plenty of loathsome stuff in the Old Testament and the Talmud, if I understand correctly. My feeling is that the essential difference between Christians and Jews throughout history is that the former have been generally in power and the latter out of it, with their respective ethical systems developing accordingly (why do you think that middle Eastern Christians, like Jews throughout the world, don't prosletyze?) I'd say that the only major religion of peace is maybe Buddhism.
55 - Martin Lav
The major differences are between books.
The Jews have one, the Christians have two.
Other than that they both love chicken soup.
56 - Nancy
There's a good cartoon on Daryl Cagle's website: a guy sitting at a bar, reading a paper the headlines of which read: DRUNK GUY SAYS STUPID THINGS! The guy's comment, below: "Duh - " Sort of sums it all up.
Here's another reference to dredge up on this subject: 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.
Anybody here never said or done anything offensive or stupid they'd never normally do, for whatever reason? I doubt it. The only reason such a fuss is being made is because it's Mel Gibson who is rich & famous.
57 - Martin Lav
I think that if Mel Brooks was seriously an anti-semite that somebody would have noticed before now.
58 - godoggo
But it's a bit late for the first stone at this point. Mel's been hurling them for a few years now.
59 - godoggo
I dunno, Martin, that Bugs Bunny voice seems like kind of a stereotype to me.
60 - Ashtyn
Excusing Mel Gibson isn't going to make him get better. It's only going to allow him to continue to get drunk and act like an idiot. There is a huge difference between saying a swear word and being belligerent and biggoted.
Saying he's not an Anti-Semite because he was drunk when he said these things is ridiculous. He was aware he had a problem and he chose to drink. He was also aware that he had issues that he's obviously choosing to not deal with.
He only apologized because he got his hand caught in the cookie jar. It would be more nobel of him to show people he's sorry not just say it.
61 - Bird of Paradise
Jeff (#38)Has accused me of being ... well, I'm not exactly sure what he is accusing me of. Perhaps "hateful" might sum up the gist of what I read in his comment. I get this often from people who have no other arguement to make. It is an easy way to dismiss someone without actually dealing with the issues involved. In the same way I have been written off as a Christian activist, a "Christianist," a Christian conservative," a "Christian fundamentalist" and a "bigot." If these charges were not so outrageous, insulting and serious I would consider them to be mildly amusing insofar as the reveal a blind prejudice and anger that does not mix very well with their complete ignorance of the person they are bringing the accusations against!
Jeff does, to his credit, however, make the effort to list my posts from which he claims to support his dismissive judgment of me. In response I would ask all of you to consider the following:
1. Saying anti-Semitic things while drunk does not prove that someone is an anti-Semite. It just proves that they said anti-Semitic things while drunk.
2. The arresting officer who I quoted is, apparently, Jewish . . . which should give his response at least some legitimacy here.
3. Nowhere in my article did I say that Mel Gibson is NOT anti-Semitic...did I? And where did I dismiss his foul comments as being of no significance or consequence for which he holds no personally accountability or responsibility?
4. My post on "Three Things About Islam" does, in part, give three examples of contemporary Islam that should be of concern to the non-Muslim west. I believe that all three things objectively true and self-evident. The vast, vast majority of Muslims in the Middle East, North Africa, Asia and those who have immigrated to Europe represent these facts. I do not anywhere imply that ALL Muslims hold these views. In the one example (#3) I specifically identified the criminals as "radical Muslim gang members in England." I can't imagine that including every Muslim by any stretch of the imagination.
5. My post on "NY Times Publisher's Short List of "Fundamental Human Rights" simply mocks Arthur Sulzberger's list of "rights" as not being "fundamental" in any legal or historic sense of the word. Read what I wrote and tell me where I am wrong?
6. My post on "Monday's 'Immigration' Demonstrations Joined By Muslim Groups & Organized By Marxists" is simply straightforward news that no one denies. In fact, the same groups I refer to in my post are now planning another rally at Lafayette Park across from the While House on August 12.
7. Let skip the next post and comment on my post on "Two Reasons Why Palestine Should Be Left For The Wolves." To begin with, I regret giving this post this heading since it misrepresents the core of my comments. My point is that the Palestinian people have both passively allowed and/or assertively chosen the leadership that has chosen to hate and attack Israel (with the consequence of wrecking death, destruction, occupationa, hopelessness and poverty upon the Palestinian people) rather than having leadership that might have chosen to grudgingly accept the reality of Israel and build an independent, prosperous and free Palestine with the full economic and political support of the world, including the State of Israel. Although manipulated, abused and oppressed by those who have claimed to represent them, the burden of the above choice must, in the end, rest with the Palestinian people themselves.
Is this "fact?" No. Is it an "opinion?" Yes. Is it "bigoted?" No more, no less than those who hold opposing opinions. Is it a point worthy of debate and discussion? I believe so. I'm sorry that Rich is not willing to carry on a dialogue. Perhaps he could pursuade me to change my opinion. Instead he applies dismissive labels.
For example, Ruvy, who I sometimes disagree with and sometimes agree with at least has the courtesy to deal with the issue I present and I respect him greatly for this. For example, in this particular thread he has claimed that "The Passion of Christ" in blatantly anti-Semitic. While I strongly disagree with him (especially when my own faith is described in those terms as well as the New Testament which, with the exception of Luke and Acts, was written by Jews who held no hatred for their own nation or people or faith. The phrase "the Jews" in John's gospel, by the way, refers specifically to the majority members of the Sanhedrin who sought Jesus' condemnation for blasphemy) yet I respect Ruvy for his opinion, especially insofar as he is responding to my post and ensuing comments as a practicing Jew (see my comment #28.
Enough said. If anyone wishes to raise anything substantive, as opposed to name calling, please let me know, either in this thread, via my web site or by email. Aloha to all. Shalom & Salaam.
62 - godoggo
Well, I know there's a debate about the meaning of "the Jews" - this is one reason that a different phrase is sometimes used in new translations. I'm not knowledgeable or interested enough, really, to have a strong opinion, but I should think that a Christian who likes to think of himself as not antisemitic will likely be biased toward the interpretation that is most flattering to this self-image. In any case, the real-world effects of the words on the page are beyond question.
I'll note that, prior to Gibson's recent rant, the evidence of his antisemitism was not just the movie, but occasional winking at Holocaust denial and conspiracy theorizing, in coded language of much the same sort as one sees from Neo-Nazis.
63 - Dominick
You know, I recently saw someone comment on Mel Gibson's actions and he made a very good point. Can't recall who it is at the moment, but he said that the reason Mel Gibson has anti-semitic thoughts is because of the incident in where his father denounced the Holocaust. Mel could have made it clear that while he'd never say anything bad about his father, he was after all his parent and he didn't share his sentiment. Many a celebrity has spoken out to say they love their parents but do not share their thoughts, but Mel said nothing.
Of all the things to say that are discriminatory he chose to speak ill about Jews. I don't find that a coincidence. Drunk or not is no excuse for bigotry.
If anyone else was drunk and called a black person the N-word it wouldn't be drunkness it'd be racial. Hell if someone called a person in a wheelchair crippled while drunk it'd be offensive and you can bet the disability organizations would be in an uproar..but he's Mel Gibson and he made the "Passion" so lets forgive him.
He profitted off Jesus, but the film was "beautiful" so its okay if he speaks ill of the religion that Jesus was, because he has a "disease" and should not have to face any consequences as a result.
64 - Dominick
Tamara --
There is a difference between saying you are ashamed to be from the state where George Bush lives and denouncing an entire culture of people.
The Dixie Chicks recently said in an interview that they did not understand why we were at war with Iraq. They questioned WMD's being in Iraq. Did we forget Bush lied about the WMD's even being there to go fight his Daddy's war?
Further, they have made it clear they support the troops even if they disagree with the war itself. I feel the same way. Hell, I am a staunch supporter of AnySoldier.com but clash with everything the Bush administration says concerning why we are in Iraq.
It should be noted many soldiers still like the Dixie Chicks and have stated on television and in articles they were not offended by what they said...but back to Mel Gibson.
You just cannot compare the Dixie Chicks' anti-war attitudes and Mel Gibson's drunken anti-Jewish tirade. They are two different things and two different situations completely.
Oh and as for Paris Hilton - what did she do? I do not like her much myself, but technically it is not illegal to make a porno and act like a spoiled little rich girl. It is, however, illegal to drive with an open container of tequila, act belligerent to the police, and resist arrest. Again, I do not see the comparison.
65 - larry
i agree with the blogs that mel is a bigot no matter what.drunk or sober. i dont think that he should be sent to a country club like betty ford. they play tennis, ride horses, get massages.he should be sent to a rehab like us common drunks.locked up until you are dry and thenand then groups. no public announcements, or visiting rehab centers. he should do his 10 to twenty days like the rest of us in az glenn campbell and diana ross off easy
66 - Martin Lav
Mel Brooks does bug bunny?
I thought that was Mel Owens.
I say throw the book at him. Both of them.
67 - Earl
What's his excuse now?