Everybody is an individual and everybody must make up their own mind about whether or not to take medicines.
I'd never faced this decision before... I didn't know what to do. When I was first diagnosed with the HIV virus, I read innumerable articles on it and later suffered from an information overload and depressing confusion. One article would speak in favor of taking the highly toxic HIV/AIDS medicines, and then I'd read another one that spoke against it with just as convincing of an argument.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dave Nalle
Well David, I actually read a good portion of that website. Not a great use of my time.
Like all prophecy, the bibilical bits referred to are vague as to specific location and time frame. But I'll agree that there are some true bits in there. Some Jews definitely migrated to the north and west. That's how pockets of them ended up in most major European cities by the early middle ages. Isolated, self-contained pockets. Not the ancestors of the major populations of any of those regions. Plus England had killed or expelled all of its Jews by the end of the 14th century.
I found the historical 'evidence' particularly amusing. Who needs history when you can just make stuff up, or claim as true things made up by propagandists and medieval chroniclers who had zero evidence for their largely fictional histories. A fraud being an old fraud doesn't become the truth. And apparently, any group of people who migrated into Western Europe before recorded history were secretly Jews. All makes sense to me.
Dave
27 - David Ben-Ariel
The United States and Britain in Prophecy offers plenty of biblical and historical information, and I'm glad Dave that you at least checked it out, to your credit, even if you don't agree with all of their conclusions. That's your prerogative, eh?
One thing that should have been brought home, however, is that every Jew is an Israelite, but not every Israelite is a Jew. There are twelve tribes of Israel and the Jews only make up a small but important part of our Big Family of nations.
28 - chantal stone
i'm sorry, but i still don't get it. David, i read a good bit of the website also, i looked at your pamphlet, i read about the church of God, and i've listened to everything you've said here with a relatively open mind, but i still don't understand the importance of the tribes you keep talking about.
salvation through Jesus Christ is for EVERYONE...anyone who would accept him as their Lord and Savior. who cares about tribe? i'm from connecticut---what tribe would that be??
29 - Dave Nalle
The importance of the tribes is that those not of the tribes are excluded from salvation at the end of days, so you can pretty much hate on them all you want until then. At least that's the take of most folks in David's movement. I can't speak for him specifically.
Dave
30 - chantal stone
so then everyone else is just S.O.L.???
doesn't sound like the loving God i know.
31 - David Ben-Ariel
How can anybody read the Bible, that has devoted 4 whole books to the history of THE TRIBES, and the books of THE PROPHETS dedicated to the future of the TRIBES, and wonder what their importance is? Obviously, they're important to God, and should be to us.
If we can't trust God to keep His physical promises to the literal descendants of Jacob-Israel, we can't trust Him to keep His spiritual promises. Thank God, He has kept His Word and Israelites have been a blessing to all mankind and will be so even more once Christ returns and reigns and regathers all into "One Nation under God, a truly "United Kingdom."
This issue of "race" - Race matters - does not deny or infringe upon God's grace to all nations and peoples. Salvation is open to all. That's an entirely different subject. Why do so many have a knee-jerk reaction to those interested in Hebrew roots, but don't feel threatened when black folks research their ROOTS? Why the glaring double-standard?
Dave, your innuendo against all who embrace the Israelite origins of the West as being exclusivist or racist is most unfounded, as people of every race and religion accept this Israelite identification, including the Jewish organization called Brit-Am Israel. The people in my "movement" don't believe a word of what you wrongly allege they do.
Herbert Armstrong correctly shows the importance of race and grace in God's plan of salvation for all nations and peoples within The United States and Britain in Prophecy.
32 - gonzo marx
again and again, David keeps referring to the words of Men, who were theoretically "inspired", as the Word of "God"...this is the basic leap of Faith required for Literalist interpertations...
also interesting that a sect that refers to itself as "Christian" spends so much time and effort in re-interperting the Old Testament to suit their needs and agenda
a Thought to mull over
Excelsior!
33 - David Ben-Ariel
I believe the plain truth of the Bible and submit Father knows best. I certainly don't "reinterpret" the Bible to "suit my needs" or I wouldn't confess it condemns the practice of homosexuality. Hello?
Jesus was in love with John. He wasn't in lust with Him, because He said He did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill and magnify their meaning so we can know the letter and the spirit of the holy commandments, making them even more binding upon the converted hearts of true Christians who aren't in rebellion while professing to be Christian (1 John 2:4).
Jesus also said, "I have kept my Father's commandments." And He set us an example to follow, not fault. Why don't you believe Him? (rhetorical question). If Jesus had any sin, and the Law and the Prophets condemn the practice of homosexuality as a definite sin, then He would be unworthy to be the pure Passover Lamb that He proved Himself to be, as testifed to by the faithful. Jesus is the Saviour without sin, and His holy Work as High Priest is to help us who are going through the conversion process to become without sin - not just saved from its death penalty.
34 - David Ben-Ariel
Just because somebody chooses to remain celibate, to practice self-control (one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit and one that the wicked one hates with a passion), doesn't mean they're condemned to suffer "loneliness." And your idea of a hell, sounds like the traditional myth that misrepresents God as the sadist Satan is. I encourage you to learn about the real hell the Bible teaches where God will put some folks out of their misery, exercising tough love.
If "straight" folks were true to the biblical religion, they would be far more careful getting married, since the majority who divorce would be required to live single and celibate lives (like recovering homosexuals) for the rest of their mortal lives also.
"So for your celibacy now, God bless you, and good luck with that. "
Thank you.
35 - Dave Nalle
Check out this site which has some great quotes from Herbert W. Armstrong's 'prophecies' - hard to believe someone could get predictions of near future events so dramatically wrong.
BTW, how did you guys feel when the world came to an end in 1936 or 1972 or 1975...
Dave
36 - Sister Ray
Dave Nalle: In post #11 you refer to Tim McVeigh as a religious extremist. He was agnostic. He gets lumped in with Koresh et al, but he said he was not acting on any religious motivation when he bombed Oklahoma City.
Ruvy: If the Wahhabis want only to convert me or kill me, I'll take that seriously, but I don't exactly "respect their opinion." As I said in another thread, religion isn't a free pass.
David Ben-Ariel: My condolences on the HIV. I respect your right to have faith, but I'm glad science is there for you too, even if the side effects are bad.
37 - Bliffle
Seems to me that if belief in god is not a comfort to one that it is time to abandon.
38 - David Ben-Ariel
Check out Herbert W. Armstrong Was Ahead of His Time!
39 - gonzo marx
actually Mr Nalle's link in comment #35 shows MUCH more of the Truth about this Armstrong charlatan
but hey..if you like the taste of the snake oil...by all means...
Excelsior!
40 - Dave Nalle
I'm not sure Armstrong was ahead of his time. He was a contemporary of L. Ron Hubbard, after all.
Dave
41 - Scott
"BTW, how did you guys feel when the world came to an end in 1936 or 1972 or 1975..."
Sounds like some Jehovah Witness type action...
42 - David Ben-Ariel
The Sabbath-keeping Church of God has always known that the world will not end, and the Earth will last forever. However, the world/age/civilization as we know it, will end when the fascist EU strikes us down and takes us out.
The Israelite American, British and Jewish peoples are prophesied to suffer national destruction, defeat and deportation, as Beyond Babylon testifies, the thunder before the Storm.
43 - Dave Nalle
David. My dog talks to me in the voice of God and tells me we're all hybrids of advanced aliens and primitive monkeys created by genetic engineering in vast, flying obelisks and that when I've raised enough money to build a tower that reaches into earth orbit for them to dock their ships to, we're all going to be taken home to their paradise-like home planet.
Care to contribute?
Dave
44 - gonzo marx
the link in comment #35 has plenty of Quotes from Armstrong himself, as well as others of this "church" who claim divine knowledge concernign the "end of the world" and other events...
not a single one ever came to pass
one spokesman even stated "well, we believed it at the time"
"by their fruit shall you know them"
by all evidence so far, the "fruit" of this church is definately rotten...
Excelsior!
45 - Dave Nalle
Thanks for reminding people about that link, gonzo. I'd say be wary of anyone who thinks they have a personal copy of god's plan for the world.
dave
46 - chantal stone
the bible warns of false prophets. no one really knows the mind of God, you can read and re-read the Bible a thousand times, and each time learn something new. and if you believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord will reveal something different to you each time.
there are scholars who have devoted their entire careers, their entire lives, to learning the Word of God, and even they understand that the Bible is full of mystery. anyone who claims otherwise is full of hot air.
47 - ss
David:
I'm going to take you at your word in regards to your situation.
I'm relieved to hear you stay on your meds regularly enough to keep your viral count down.
You can believe whatever you want about the origin of your disease, personally I don't think God has anything to do with it, you just got dealt a really shitty hand.
From what I understand, your disease does make you susceptable to other, more easily transmitted diseases.
Until the countries with money, be they fascist, chosen, or none of the above, realize the threat posed by your disease and decide to spend the money to bring the best minds from all the peoples of the world together to find a cure, you have an obligation to your fellow man to stay on your meds and keep that viral count down.
I'm sure you've heard this arguement before and are appearantly considering ending your treatment anyway.
Please reconsider and take your obligation to the rest of us seriously.
48 - Brother Robin Brace
Hi There! I was once a member of Armstrong's WCG group (which the correspondent here calls 'church of God) but I came to see the errors in Armstrong's teachings.
When you are part of the group everything feels cosy and you do not question, but they made me a lay preacher and I studied the Bible really extensively after that and found errors all over the place in the Armstrongist teachings. I left the WCG, went to university and took a theology degree and I am now a Christian minister. I have a whole page of articles to help people affected by Armstrongism here:
http://www.ukapologetics.net/1arm.htm
49 - Brother Robin Brace
Oops! The point I really wanted to make was on healing. Here are two articles which should be able to help our friend:
When Christians Become Sick...
(http://www.ukapologetics.net/2sickness.html)
and,
Is Physical Healing Included in the Atonement?
(http://www.ukapologetics.net/healingsacrifice.htm)
50 - David Ben-Ariel
BRB, if you were a member of the Worldwide Church of God, contrary to your accusation laymembers didn't question or study the Bible, you should know we had the Bible Correspondence Course that dealt with about every subject under the sun, and encouraged all to look up the Scriptures like the noble Bereans.
I'm further proof laymembers certainly did question and read the Bible for ourselves, since I came to disagree with Herbert Armstrong on the dates for Passover/Pentecost (true Christian festivals - not baptized paganism), voting and military service. All things considered, Herbert Armstrong was far more biblical than all of the traditional ministers today put together.
51 - Sojourner
David,
I've been living "the way" for over thirty years. In that time, I've seen many healed and I've been healed as well. My own daughter was healed of asthma... we had her anointed and she never had another attack... she developed it from a bout of scarletina when she was 8 and was healed from it when she was 22, without fanfare. It was simply gone.
I"ve seen numerous miraculous interventions over the course of my life in God's Churh. We don't seek much in the way of medical attention and I haven't had a prescription filled since I was 22. I've seen my kids get pretty ill but God was always a reliable source of comfort and healing... more important than the healing, however, are the lessons I've learned waiting on God... because while God has always proved reliable, He has rarely proved Himself as instant as I would have Him to be. Many the nights I"ve wrung my hands awaiting the outcome of putting the lives of my children in His hands. God says He is our healer but does not promise that He will always heal us as it is appointed to all me to die. So one of the things I've learned is that when I seek out God's intervention, that it will be His will and in His time. If you choose to wait on God, know that the outcome will be His choosing and you've got to come to terms with that. Also, He brings us right up to the edge, many times... into the shadow of death. Death seems like such a finality to us but to God it is merely the night between two days... And He can and will wake us from that sleep.
Another thing I"ve learned is that Adam and Eve did not believe what God told them... and it offended Him and seperated them from Him. The Children of Israel did not beleive God and it offended Him that they did not believe. He had given them every reason to believe but all they could see was what seemed impossible to overcome. But He is the same God that created the world and all that is in it, the same God who parted the seas, the same God who raised the dead...
One other thing that I've pondered over the years, I find it odd that we profess to believe that God will raise us up from the dead when we've never seen anyone raise up out of a grave... but we've all seen sick people made well and we doubt His abiltiy to reign over illness and yet we say we believe He has power to reign over death? I try to remind myself of these things when I'm faced with the illness of myself or my family. Eventually, the outcome will be that God will allow one of us to go... as it is the way of man. And at that time, I hope I can remember all these things that I ponder over the years.
Soj
52 - Christopher Rose
Thanks for this classic proof of the circular arguments of the extreme faithist, Sojourner. Why can some people persuade themselves of things for which there is absolutely no evidence? I'm seriously baffled.
53 - chantal stone
Christopher.....comment #51 baffles me too. In fact, this whole thread baffles me.
54 - gonzo marx
as any doctor will tell you, from Johns Hopkins to the Witch Doctor to the Medicine man...
most healing comes from within the Patient, the physicians task is to do no harm and make the patient comfortable
on the other hand, the percentage of ill folks that are not aided but such treatments, require further care...
example: acute appendicitis- requires surgery, or you will die...no exception and never has a burst appendix been healed by "faith"
can you say pennicillin? no case of tuburculosis has ever been healed by "faith"
on and on
just some Thoughts
Excelsior!
55 - Sojourner
Chris and Chantal,
That you are baffeled by my reply I am not surprised... I would not expect you to grasp nor understand my motivation. I am certain that it makes little sense to you as you see with different eyes... you cannot see what I can see. David asked of those who share like mindedness their views on healing. I felt he deserved an answer by one of his own as the criticism by those who do not believe seemed to abound.
It's not a weak attempt at proseletyzing... I'll leave that to God.
Did you have a specific question or was it merely your intent to belittle my beliefs?
Soj
56 - Sojourner
Gonzo,
Conventional medicine is actually the leading cause of death in the United States, killing over 750,000 Americans each year (drug deaths, hospital deaths, iatrogenic deaths combined, source: Death By Medicine).
You could also get an older book entitled 200,000,000 Guinea Pigs for further enlightenment.
Soj
57 - chantal stone
Soj....
We're not belittling your beliefs, we're just expressing our own.
This just reminds me of a conversation on another thread about "blind faith".
It's your decision whether or not to use conventional medicine, or to trust God.
I just don't think that using conventional medicine means that one does not trust God.
Opinions vary.
58 - gonzo marx
Sojourner...
whereas i do understand that modern medical fuck-ups do cause deaths, i think your numbers are far from truthful and would ask for links to back up such a claim...and by sources i mean something a bit more substantial than faithist sites with no factual data
when comparing the AMA with governmental agencies and actual hospital numbers, yours seems to be exponentially incorrect
on the other hand...i woudl dearly enjoy reading accurate accounts of ANY "faith healing" corroborated by scientific examination for any of the following...
tuburculosis
malaria
HIV/AIDS
leukemia
those are just a nice start, since each..when untreaded by medical science, inevitably leads to death
and there is the problem..an individual who has NOT been examined by a physician who claims to have been "healed" has NO credibility...
however, ANY instance of someone examined by a physician with such illnesses who is then subsequently "healed" and examined again to find they are indeed cured, would be evidentiary, by definition
i am aware of no such evidence...
Excelsior!
59 - Christopher Rose
Actually, chantal, I must confess to a certain degree of belittlement, but I think it's okay to mock someone who believes literally in myths and says things like medicine is the leading cause of death. What is there to respect about such childishness and dishonesty?
60 - chantal stone
fair enough Christopher! ;)
61 - Sojourner
Gonzo,
The information comes from JAMA. Try this link... I"ve found the article in JAMA before but can't take the time to locate it today...
By the way Gonzo, I'n not trying to sell you a bill of goods. Nor am I suggesting anyone give up their preferred method of healing practices. If your comfort zone is safely in the hands of men that you can see, if that is where your trust lies, then certainly I would not suggest you give that up.
I'm not suggesting David give it up... I was merely talking to him as a brother in the faith... a faith which does not require science to corrobortate God's existence. That you do not believe what I know is of little concern to me. If I showed you irrefutable proof, you would not believe it... So I would hardly expet you to take my word on it.
Sojourner
62 - Christopher Rose
Aaw, here we go again:
"That you do not believe what I know is of little concern to me... If I showed you irrefutable proof, you would not believe it..."
The arrogance and dismissiveness pretty much says it all for me. Way to go with the honest open loving dialogue there.
63 - gonzo marx
Sojurner sez...
*If I showed you irrefutable proof, you would not believe it... So I would hardly expet you to take my word on it.*
well now, did i not state that i would gladly go over ANY evidentiary data before making any sort of decision?
reading comprehension for the win
and you are partially correct in that i take NO one's "word" on unconfirmed data...especially that which falls outside the realms of physical law
my so-called "comfort zone" is NOT the Issue here, what is of concern are unfounded assertations which could lead to a persons death from lack of adequate treatment
your JAMA data is well Respected, and very well documented, but has NO relative bearing on this conversation...the JAMA data shows the errors of Men, as well as the shortcoming to a medical System comprised of people pursuing Business and not the Vocation of Healing...
completely different Discussion...and does NOT answer my Question from earlier (nice try at distraction tho)
can you find ANY documented instances of scientifically diagnosed cases of tuburculoses or even gangrene that were cured by "faith" and NOT anti-biotics?
until corroborated evidence for such is produced, and i mean no disRespect by this, than ALL so-called "faith healing" remains mere hookum and bunk
Excelsior!
64 - Sojourner
Chris,
Naturally it would come across as arrogant... if one seeks to impose his religion on another, it's arrogant, if one seeks to live according to his own beliefs demanding no sort of acceptance or corroboration from anyone, it is also considered arrogant. What can I say? Nature of the beast I suppose. What you do on your own time is your own business... what is it to me? God reveals Himself to his servants whom He calls. You will, in time, come to know God, each man in his own order.
Sojourner
65 - Sojourner
Gonzo,
I would never suggest anyone take my word for it... not you, not even David.
However, you suggest God submit Himself to a battery of lab rat tests? That's rich. To prove God, one must be willing to live according to His righteousness, to follow His Law and to strive toward obedience, to believe and to prove that belief by taking Him at His word... or IOW's exhibit faith. Now that's the formula listed... all you've got to do is find one of your scientists willing to follow through.
Good Luck!
Soj
66 - Steve
It is true, Soj, one can only get to know God thru testing his truths in our own lives, it's a relationship God wants to have with us, not a scientific experiment! After all, God is the Creator, not the creation, science is all about the creation. About the only thing science can disprove about God (and has) is that God is not just another part of the creation, so those religions who say he is that, are definitely wrong on that score. Beyond that, science can't say one way or the other.
67 - gonzo marx
again, Sojurner...you sidestep and dodge a sinple Question...
i am well Aware that one cannot prove the Metaphysical
what i asked for was MUCH simpler...
can you show me a single case of medically diagnosed tuburculosis or gangrene that was cured by Faith and checked again by a medical professional
NOT proof of god...but ONE case where either of those conditions was cured by faith and not antibiotics...
THAT was the Question..i've asked numerous times, and you ahve failed to address it once
so, dodge, distract, and sidestep all you like...
but answer the Question
Excelsior!
68 - KYS
Dear, dear Gonzo,
Don't you know? You cannot be healed when you ask for scientific evidence. You spit in the face of god when you ask for any proof.
Haven't you read the ID handbook?
Sheesh!
;)
69 - gonzo marx
lol...nice sarcasm KYS...
but still, no one has shown a single shred of documentation of either tuburculosis or gangrene cured by faith and not anti-biotics
since so many are enamored by healing without the benefits of science, i just wanted a documented case of either disease being cured without the simple application of anti-biotics..
this is NOT asking for any kind of proof of the metaphysical, merely evidentiary gathering that such is hypothetically possible, since the body cannot cure either of these infection on it's own
therefore, those examples would be the perfect data to lend credence to the Posts assertation
without such...it remains snake oil
nuff said?
Excelsior!
70 - troll
*About the only thing science can disprove about God (and has) is that God is not just another part of the creation, so those religions who say he is that, are definitely wrong on that score.*
interesting...what disproof is this - ?
troll
71 - Timmy Jones
I got runover by a truck one day. I was in the hospital for 5 years in a coma, and the doctors gave up hope. But my mother prayed to God everyday, and i am now miraculously healed and almost 100 percent as functionaly as i was before the truck hit me.
See God does heal. I win. God wins. Good game.
72 - Druck Driver
Damn, I failed.
73 - gonzo marx
once again..anecdotal with no documentation..and NOT one of the types of cases i asked about...but rather one where the body has amazing capacity to heal itself without outside intervention...
nice try...you win at life, and i am glad you have recovered...but your "story" has NOTHING to do with the Questions posed...
try harder
Excelsior!
74 - Christopher Rose
gonzo: just a heads up that "Timmy" and "Druck", whose spelling is as poor as his driving, share the same IP address...
75 - Bliffle
Nalle is right.
But gonzo gets demerits for contributing to the improper use of 'exponentially'.