My initial reaction to reading about comedian Bill Cosby's remarks at an event commemorating the end of racial segregation was to dismiss them as ill-considered. The only response I intended to make was to drop my old friend Teddy Shaw, head of the Ink Fund, a line. But, reaction in the conservative blogosphere, which has used the statements as an opportunity to bash African-Americans anew, has led me to to reconsider.
CNN offers a sample of what Cosby said.
Speaking at a commemoration of the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation decision, Cosby, a longtime education advocate, cited elevated school dropout rates for inner-city black students and criticized low-income blacks for not using the opportunities the civil rights movement won for them.
`These people marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around,'' Cosby said at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund observance.
``I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk,'' Cosby said, according to published reports. ``And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth.''
Cosby went on to imply that imprisonment of African-Americans, even for minor offenses, is acceptable. Indeed, the various excerpts I've read from his speech have a common theme: Poor black people are dysfunctional and it is solely their fault.
Individuals who want to believe black people are inherently inferior or naturally pathological are having a field day courtesy of Bill Cosby (pictured). At Blogcritics, a large Right Wing blog, a youthful Neandertal has revived the urban myth that poor African-American kids wear $500 basketball shoes. And old codger from Texas claims African-Americans breed too much, and 'rut like horny fruit flies.' A Libertarian who says Rosa Parks may deserve to be beaten for her role in the civil rights movement has also contributed to the discussion. (Don't ask.)
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Tom Johnson
At Blogcritics, a large Right Wing blog . . .
You haven't been hanging around BC much for the last 6-8 months, have you, MD?
2 - Natalie Davis
Actually, Tom, while I think calling BC a right-wing blog is a bit of an exaggeration, many people have perceived that it presents a right-wing bias despite the presence of a few vocal libs.
3 - Mac Diva
I consider it Right Wing. That is particularly true after I have been reading mainstream material or talking to normal people. Then, what passes for reasonable here -- Zionism, 'scientific' and any other kind of racism, war mongering, ignoring women except to post sexist lists about which celebrities are most attractive, no regard for the environment, kneejerk support of big business -- is more clearly defined.
I don't know that Cosby intended to provide succor to racists, but that has been the effect of his statements.
4 - Natalie Davis
Yes, I would agree with that. I doubt that was Mr. Cosby's intent, but...
5 - Bob A. Booey
I don't feel that you added any new insight beyond your previous comments with this article. I'm not sure why you wrote it.
Your instinct about Cosby's EdD is a little off as well. Rather than resorting to an ad hominem attack on his academic qualifications, I think you'd have a better point if you questioned why someone who has a doctorate in education would resort to mockery and discouraging black students rather than positively reinforcing achievement.
Don't drop names that no one recognizes.
I only engaged this because I think you need help with your writing.
That is all.
6 - Mac Diva
Bumbling Bob, my previous remarks were comments. This is my only blog entry on the topic. My intention was to pull together what I've said in comments for my blog and Blogcritics. If you click on 'entry' at the sig line which follows my entry above, you can see it at Silver Rights. I'm sure you will find much to criticize there, too.
Cosby's remarks do make me wonder about the degree. I wasn't an education major, not to mention in an education graduate program. Yet, I know how dialects develop as do many, if not most, educated people. How can someone with a doctorate in education not know something like that?
7 - Chris Kent
BABs,
The writing was excellent and the opinions held my interest throughout. MD makes some good points here. I think the reason many groups of people continue with dialects/accents/lingo is due to the neighborhoods they grow up in. Everyone tries to fit in whether they realize it or not. A black man tries to speak differently in his neighborhood, he will be ridiculed. I think another reason dialects exist is because it gives groups of people a form of independence from other groups. It is a badge of pride in some ways.
I was once with cousins in east Texas at a family reunion. I was apalled by their hick accents (notice I am being judgemental here about a person due to his/her dialect). I did not say anything to my relatives, though do remember one cousin asking me, "Why do you speak like a Yankee?" Perhaps a black man would say to another black man, "Why do you speak like a white man?"
Anyway, Cosby's comments were certainly ill-advised. As we all know, when people get older, they tend to talk before they think.....
8 - boomcrashbaby
I'm wondering if that reference to a young Nethandral who commented on 500 dollar sneakers is a reference to me. If so, I can only take both words as a compliment.
It should be pointed out, for the record, that comments like this:
Individuals who want to believe black people are inherently inferior or naturally pathological are having a field day courtesy of Bill Cosby
may well be true, however, not all people who agree with the Personal Responsibility gist of Cosby's comments, feel that a minority is inherently inferior.
For my part, when I talk about responsibility in this vein, I'm not talking about responsibility for the causes, so much as for the solution.
No, not even the solution. A solution.
To read comments like this:
...doctorate in education would resort to mockery and discouraging black students rather than positively reinforcing achievement. (comment #5),
makes me realize that any futher discussion on this is non-productive. Here we have an African American who is advocating personal responsibility being labeled as 'discouraging students and not positively reinforcing achievement'.
Good grief, how does one reinforce achievement if not by advocating personal responsibility? GIVE somebody something and then pat them on the back for achieving it?
Cosby should have acknowledged all the hard working, decent yet still poor minorities out there. He should have offered positive reinforcement of achievers. I'll agree with that, only because it seems that since he didn't, it has distracted from his message that was directed towards some not all.
9 - Tom Johnson
Yet, I know how dialects develop as do many, if not most, educated people. How can someone with a doctorate in education not know something like that?
I don't think he lacks an understanding of dialect, I think it's that he realizes that the dialect holds people back. Regardless of race, if you talk like you don't understand English, you will not be taken seriously outside of your immediate peers. It's just an unfortunate fact of life. If a white guy comes stumbling out of the woods and talks like a hillbilly, people are going to assume this guy isn't suitable for a position of power in a big company. Same goes for African Americans - if you talk in the slang that's popular now, you're not going to get anywhere. Now, this isn't saying that this means that these people are unintelligent, it's just saying that there's no way for anyone else to know that they ARE intelligent. They could very well be geniuses. If they possess language skills that allow them to speak correctly and, more importantly, appropriately, they'll be able to show others the genius that they are. That's not racism at work in Cosby's remarks. Maybe, however, it is classism - I'll leave that for others to decide.
10 - Mac Diva
I thought RJ Elliott was the prime promoter of the $500 basketball shoes stereotype. Perhaps I confused it with his promotion of the claims women of color are ugly and that affirmative action results in people less bright than he is going to college. (An impossibility.) Regardlessly, '$500 basketball shoes' is a stereotype and a gross misrepresentation of reality.
Some years ago, there was a Southern legislator who had a black football player's college scholarship withdrawn. The kid had the scholarship because he was handicapped. He had only one leg. However, he played football despite the handicap. The legislator saw footage of the student playing football and said it proved the fellow was not really in need of help. That is the kind of result one gets by promoting stereotypes such as the welfare Cadillac and the expensive sneakers. People looking for something to latch on to to deny the poor and minorities opportunities use those stereotypes to their advantage.
11 - Bob A. Booey
BoomCrash: Call your sister tonight and have a talk with her about educational psychology (which Cosby no doubt studied extensively) and achievement motivation. Cosby's negative comments and mockery are punitive -- this approach (ridiculing the worst and the lowest achievers) never motivates the low achievers nor sets an example for higher achiver who don't compare themselves to the lowest of their peer group to begin with. In the classroom, his approach would be counter-productive and likely hurt achievement.
Let me reiterate because I think some of you have missed this the first several times I've said it: AT NO POINT did Cosby EVER say the words of encouragement about HOW we should train black leaders you attribute to him. Instead, he trots out the same tired stereotypes that those "marchers hit in the face with rocks" -- people like Julian Bond and others who, unlike Cosby, DID march in the civil rights movement and were apalled at Cosby's comments that very night -- fought to challenge. Let's remember that Cosby's support for black causes has been mostly symbolic as well -- he was busy making "I Spy" and trying his very best to integrate and be acceptable to the white mainstream (which is commendable, don't get me wrong) while others were putting their livelihoods, and very lives, on the line for their beliefs.
Anytime someone talks about "A Solution," I get nervous. Universal truths and final solutions don't mix well. Part of the problem is that we as a nation steadfastly refuse to take responsibility for the causes, or even understand them, before we prescribe solutions. That's not good medicine, my neo-con pathologists. To teach, moralize, and lecture you need some modicum of understanding about what your students have and are going through. BoomCrash has lived through some struggle of his own, so maybe he has this understanding.
For most of you, though, I'd suggest that you have to get your hands dirty a little bit before you can claim to know the answers for people you obviously view as so different. I've already recycled enough Christian imagery in my comments on this issue, but I'm surprised that this aspect of engagement hasn't resonated with at least some of you neo-cons. Probably because your politics precede your principles, as is the case with too many on the right (and left) these days.
That is all.
12 - Bob A. Booey
Damn it.
I wrote a detailed comment but I think it got lost when I tried to submit it.
I don't have the energy to re-create it.
Oh well.
13 - Chris Kent
Unfortunately BABs,
We are having to suffer through one of your endless comments again.
I've never known someone to write so much and yet say so little.
Have you considered running for office?
14 - Mac Diva
The server has been acting strange since yesterday's eviction and relocation. Try going back with your browser or looking at the history page for what you were writing. It may still be there.
Tom, that is the positive spin you and I would put on remarks criticizing using dialect. But, Cosby did nothing of the sort. His message was not ameliorative in any way.
15 - Mac Diva
Chris Kent, the guy does love to write. However, I am not sure why.
16 - boomcrashbaby
BoomCrash: Call your sister tonight and have a talk with her about educational psychology (which Cosby no doubt studied extensively) and achievement motivation.
I'll bring it up. I am supposed to call her tonight. If there is one thing that she and I know about and agree on though, it's personal responsibility and achievement motivation. You're preaching to the choir here. You know a smidgen of my history, my lack of resources, and all the bigots out there who have attempted to hold me back. But I am not the one who needs a lesson on achievement motivation. My daughter is 21 months old, is just starting to speak, but can already identify all 26 letters and most numbers, even upside down, pronounce most of them (some lower case letters still understandably problematic in identification) knows in a very limited aspect how to navigate around a keyboard, is learning English and Spanish, and is intelligent enough to have figured out that if she can't get what she wants, give something to Daddy to distract him, so she can get back to what she's doin. No achievement motivation lesson needed in this house, thank's though, for the thought.
this approach (ridiculing the worst and the lowest achievers) never motivates the low achievers nor sets an example for higher achiver who don't compare themselves to the lowest of their peer group to begin with. In the classroom, his approach would be counter-productive and likely hurt achievement.
Granted, in the classroom yes, it would be wrong. He wasn't in a classroom, he wasn't speaking to kids, he was speaking to black leaders. Why are you under the impression that he should speak to black leaders the same as if he was speaking to children? Come on.
Part of the problem is that we as a nation steadfastly refuse to take responsibility for the causes, or even understand them, before we prescribe solutions.
Taking responsibility. Wow. There's a novel idea.
We as a nation SHOULD combat racism, and ALL the factors that lead to a segment of society being marginalized as a lower class. We as a nation are comprised of individuals. It would be a lot easier for us as a nation to promote responsibility, if those individuals within it also did so. How does one then promote responsibility and achievement? Through money, success, career and a comfortable survival. THAT'S already in place.
Bob, there is a legitimate beef in combatting stereotyping, racism, and the creation of a lower class, that's true, I'll give you that. The problem, is that your solution is too long term, and only tenuously possible at best. If I'm in a burning house, I'm not going to stand there and wait for the person who CAUSED the fire to come get me out, cuz it's his obligation and he needs to show some responsibility for his actions, dammit... Life doesn't work that way. The solution is to hold that person accountable for what he has done, take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again, and also to exhibit behavior that will better your situation (like jumping through the window). You're focusing more on the take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again part. I'm addressing the more immediate need of jumping through the window.
To teach, moralize, and lecture you need some modicum of understanding about what your students have and are going through. BoomCrash has lived through some struggle of his own, so maybe he has this understanding.
I'm sure that MacDiva is right, when she says that racists are having a field day with what Cosby said. It goes with the territory though. I used to cringe whenever a gay person like Andrew Sullivan said something critical or negative about the gay community. You could rest assured that the 700 club or Scarborough would have the comments on their show, complete with illogical footage of gay people partying in the street. It doesn't mean we should stop a critical self analysis, just so we don't give our enemies ammo.
17 - Shark
Oh. Another trite personal vendetta disguised as intellectual analysis.
feh.
re. the "...old codger from Texas claims African-Americans breed too much, and 'rut like horny fruit flies.'"
Honey, I claims everybody breeds too much. But don't let facts get in the way of your ongoing nervous breakdown.
re: "Old" and "gramps" as insults -
1) Aging is hell, but consider the options.
2) Being a loving grandfather who is loved by his grandson is not a role that anyone would find insulting. At least anyone sane who values relationships with other people.
BTW: Mac, um...
You're.
Single.
Right?
heh.
18 - Shark
Chris Kent: "...As we all know, when people get older, they tend to talk before they think..."
Nothing like a speech condemning racism justified by an explicit statement of ingnorant ageism.
19 - Shark
PS: Just my two cents -
MacD ain't worthy of anointing Bob A. Booey's feet, let alone criticizing him or his writing.
She could take a lesson from him in both depth and clarity of thought.
She's got him beat on the insults, tho.
20 - Bob A. Booey
No, she really doesn't. She recycles mine. Yet another example in her last comment:
Me: "I don't feel that you added any new insight beyond your previous comments with this article. I'm not sure why you wrote it."
Paranoid schizophrenic: "Chris Kent, the guy does love to write. However, I am not sure why."
This is the second time in a row. It's gone beyond the anxiety of influence and flattery to being pathetic. I'm young enough to be her son or grandson, I'm sure. Stop copying me because I'm smarter than you. Stick to lame insults like "Bumbling Bob." Thanks.
I say the things that you would say if only you had the intelligence or ability and I have the balls to make interesting connections and analysis rather than boring, shallow, inchoate "commentaries" that shed no light on the issue. I have no interest in reading that website if they'd accept this post of yours as publishable material. There are enough low-quality blog sites out there that I don't read as it is. The only thing more annoying than political commentaries I fundamentally disagree with are commentaries that agree with my positions, but just for the wrong reasons (or no real reasons at all). Just be glad you have chosen to agree on this issue; you wouldn't want to have to argue against me.
Chris, I'm glad to see you're MacDiva's only fan and ManSlave. If I were paranoid like MacDiva, I'd wonder if you were her other personality. Nonetheless, you contribute nothing. You are witless and have nothing of substance to say on any issue that extends beyond your keyboard and fat gut. You're still an illiterate hick just like your relatives are, especially when you INSIST on ending your comments with trite cliches like "As we all know, when people get older, they tend to talk before they think....." Ponderous, bro, ponderous. You're a real philosopher. Douche.
BoomCrash: I wasn't talking about your particular achievement motivation, which I'm sure is high enough, but the role of educators like your sister encouraging achievement motivation in low-income (and especially minority) students. There's something called self-efficacy related to achievement orientation in education psychology that is similar to your notion of personal responsibility -- this doesn't come from nowhere, however. Teachers play a vital role in expecting success from their students, reinforcing their effort (and avoiding punitive strategies as much as possible), and making them feel as if they have an ability to master what they are studying. Too many teachers assume things about minority students and make it difficult or virtually impossible for those students to feel comfortable in taking "personal responsibility" and that such actions will be rewarded instead of frustrated.
I'm fascinated by your "house on fire" analogy, but I think the problem is too many people still deny that the house is on fire. There are still too many who trot out old stereotypes and are waiting outside that window with a can of kerosene asking why blacks won't jump through rings of fire and let the house burn. I'm not sure that we should look at black culture as a house that is burning to begin with. There's a lot of tradition and history worth embracing -- I'd argue, in fact, that most of mainstream American pop culture that white folks take for granted now comes FROM black culture. The point I think we're disagreeing on is that I think that there are plenty of bright students who do toe the line and follow traditional paths of achievement white folks would approve of who find their efforts continually frustrated. I dispute your idea that money, success, good jobs, and comfortable survival are readily attainable and present in the hood. A part of the psychological problem of race is that we've left so many barriers to education for lower-income minorities in this country that we have Cosby's stereotypical assumption of the uneducable trickster. And for a lot of blacks who have been told all their life that they're inferior students, asking them to "jump out the window" seems a lot like trusting the folks who set the house on fire to rescue you. It's incumbent upon all people in positions of authority like educators to make sure that they encourage rather than discourage those students who ARE trying to do something in the here-and-now so that they can have pride in their identity (rather than rejecting it as Cosby would have them do) and become those black leaders that can show the way. "Jumping" right into the middle-class has never been that simple, quick, or easy for blacks in this country.
For what it's worth, I think we've come to some agreement on the goal and even on structural change. I think where we differ is that I think that our immediate commitment to challenging structural racism plays itself out in our daily interactions and choices and that we have to hold ourselves accountable for the "burning house" of racism just as, and perhaps because, there are those facing adversity who are taking responsibility in struggling against adversity most of us will never know and taking a leap of faith that often goes unrewarded by our society. We should strive for a society where black achievement ISN'T tied to giving up one's identity.
Chris Kent is scratching his bald head right now. Ask your dissociative honey bunch there to explain.
That is all.
21 - RJ Elliott
"Anyone who knows anything about how dialects are maintained knows he hasn't a clue what he is talking about. The reason dialects continue to exist is isolation. Poor blacks and Hispanics are the most likely to be isolated -- in neighborhoods, schools, jobs, etc. So, the speech patterns developed during slavery and peonage continue."
Er...I work with many young Hispanics who speak perfect formal English while on the job, and then immediately switch over to "Hip-Hop" slang during informal discussions.
The fact is, minorities who speak proper English are often derided among their peers as being "uncle Toms" and the like. These individuals CHOOSE to utilize slang, they are not forced to due to "isolation."
22 - RJ Elliott
At Blogcritics, a large Right Wing blog . . .
"You haven't been hanging around BC much for the last 6-8 months, have you, MD?"
LOL...
Well, anyone who disagrees with her is inherently "right-wing" if not overtly "racist." And, because she is consistently disagreed with here, it is no wonder she views this site in such a manner...
23 - RJ Elliott
"I thought RJ Elliott was the prime promoter of the $500 basketball shoes stereotype."
As usual, you were wrong.
"Perhaps I confused it with his promotion of the claims women of color are ugly"
Huh?
"and that affirmative action results in people less bright than he is going to college. (An impossibility.)"
Aw, again with the personal attacks. You never learn, do you? Rules that apply to everyone else just don't apply to you, is that it?
Perhaps your attakcs on my intellect would be a bit more credible if I hadn't been the one to point out errors (both factual and grammatical) in no less than three of your recent posts... ;-)
24 - RJ Elliott
Let's explore how a typical minority (or anyone, for that matter) can succeed, fairly easily, within American society:
He (let's call him Charles) lives in a poor, mostly-black urban neighborhood. He goes to a public school, which is "free" in the sense that it is paid for by the taxpayer. The "cool" thing to do while growing up is play basketball, skip class, listen to rap, and talk like Jay-Z. Charles does his share of this, but manages to graduate with a respectable 2.5 GPA.
Charles is immediately accepted into Community College. He receives both loans and grants to help him pay for it. He also is given a part-time work-study job. He graduates from CC with a respectable 2.5 GPA.
Charles is now immediately accepted to a four-year state university. He continues to receive loans and grants (and possibly scholarships) as well as part-time work-study employment. He graduates with a degree in WHATEVER HE WANTS TO MAJOR IN, and is able to use the public library to go to Monster.com and find a decent job somewhere outside the 'hood.
(Note: All this was accomplished without being a straight-A student, or using the crutch of Affirmative Action.)
Please tell me again how black youths are unable to acheive in contemporary American society?
25 - Purple Tigress
Hmmmm. I wrote something here, but it seems to have disappeared. I think anytime one makes criticism about one's own ethnic group one is bound to be met with the chilly accusation of having sold out and, if possible, racists will use those comments to rationalize their prejudices.
Language is a means of control. Bilingual or polylingual individuals learn to code-switch, go between languages at the proper time. Although, it must be said that the proper time may be a way of showing either deference or dominance. Similarly, ethnic dialects are ranked by prestige and used to assert in-group status.
But sometimes one must question if being required to be in-group isn't really holding someone back, out of jealousy or fear. For Asian Americans, the accusation is of being a banana. For Mexican Americans and other Latinos, it is a coconut. For African Americans who consider themselves black, it is the Oreo.
Sure, for some people it is now considered cool to talk like a gangsta, but it was also once prestigious to speak like a surfer dude or a hippy. With television and radio, people are exposed to enough English speakers to be able to make an effort or a choice.
But if the purpose of language for people who are monolingual is to communicate, then what Cosby seems to be saying is that they must embrace the standard language. The problem is doing so without being accused of being an Oreo.
I think the thread of taking responsibility for oneself was running through another discussion (on Super Size Me). There is a tendency for some to fall into victimhood, to use the race card when it is questionable or without considering other possibilities.
There is also a tendency for people of the working class to value things other than education. Like a job. Like a car. Yeah, even a good pair of shoes.
What I believe Cosby was attempting to say is that minorities must not take obstacles as excuses to fail or to become embittered, but take these problems and use them as inspirational catalysts to succeed.
Compared to what other generations faced, we have little excuse not to succeed.
Perhaps the thing that keeps many ethnic minorities from succeeding is bitterness. Ethnic minorities still face obstacles. I think RJ Elliot's example of Charles is simplistic and naive. I have worked at a place where women regularly faced sexual harassment (100 percent) and racist remarks were made against black people. I'd say at that company, not unlike the company I worked at before, progress and promotion for blacks and women was very limited. So let's not deny that problems do exist.