A conversation between an atheist and a Christian who discuss homosexuality and neon signs.
I grew up in a religious family. As a child, my mother dragged me to faith healers who showed up once a month in Albuquerque and tried to “cure” my deafness. The faith healers themselves, while varied in the way they delivered their healing sessions, almost always shared the same routine. They would prop me up on stage in front of the church, and begin yelling something to the effect that I had somehow been wronged. By whom exactly was never answered, though I once asked a pastor, “If God made me deaf, why do we need faith healers to fix what God has done? That doesn’t make sense.” (My pastor immediately started praying, though I never got an answer).…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - gonzo marx
not a problem...
i had asked for a specific as to where, exactly, within your scriptures, some of the specific beliefs you profess come from
not chapter and verse, but which book itself (ie: Matthew, Mark, Luke, James...etc)
and as for beliefs, i mean the very specific things you have talked about.."salvation", the "afterlife" and so on
a good one would be what some call the "Rapture", is this part of your belief system? this one i'm especially concerned with...since it is not mentioned in even Revelations...
part of my curiosity revolves around the historical data concerning the editing, source material and compiling of what you call the Bible
oh yes..as for me...pray for something you have a chance of helping, by your standards, it's pretty safe to say i would be considered apostate and heretic, at the very least...
Excelsior?
27 - Richard
OK Ray, lets try and get this heads-on. Look forward too...you dont drive looking ONLY in the rearview.
You are claiming the opposite of what's written in the Bible...See John 3:17 which clearly says "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17)"
If there's a roadsign for max speed of 20 MPH and for some reason you dont see and go past the speed limit are you exonerated? Probably not. But the Bible tells us that God's Law (10 commandments) were given for man to follow and which of us (including me) claims not to have broken any of it. Jesus came in the world to save us from punishment. He did not come to condemn.
I thought I should allow you to respond before I go any further.
28 - A Concerned Citizen
Richard
My main point is that God is a little more universal than many give credit for. I don't think Jesus would want salvation limited to the people who say "Jesus is Lord" or even people who, cognitively, believe it. Jesus, as we know him now, is simply a literary figure. . . a conceptualization of what he actually might have been (the kindness, goodness, etc). You cannot accept salvation from your conceptualization of God.
Which brings me to my original quotation: God is love. Love, the actual experience, the will for the benefit of another being, is by far the closest experience we'll ever have of God -- and it is universal among men.
I guess my problem with the Christian idea of "salvation" is the idea that we are separate from God -- I don't believe we are at all. I tend to believe that our time here is just growing into our relationship with God and "redemption" was just Jesus showing us how.
I'll be the first to admit my ideas are still developing. . . haha and somewhat convoluted. Still, I feel they have some merit to them.
Anyway, I want to say I admire your patience and willingness to debate in a respectful way. :)
29 - Richard
Gonzo, for some reason the last para of your response in #26 welled up my eyes. (I'm sorry if I sound kindof silly and mushy saying so.)
I can only tell you one thing Gonzo...God loves you. He sent His Son to die for you. Also know that since you were created in God's image, the devil hates you...the devil does not hate you per se, but he hates you because YOU (and I and all humans) are created in God's image.
If I may have the audacity of telling you something, I can only suggest you not to be curious when reading God's word. Read it with faith. There's nothing wrong in trying. Dont worry about changing yourself...when you light a candle in a dark room, the room is flooded with light, you dont have to do anything to dispel the darkness. I know and believe that the word is working in you - if my belief is true please do not stifle this voice and you will start seeing things in a fresh perspective.
Also regarding your questions, I really suggest you to pick up a Bible study, not with the intention of becoming a Christian...just with the intention of knowing more. Again, religion is man-made and always brings forth strife...relation is God-made and gives you abundant life. There is a lot of deception in this world and remember to test a tree by its fruit.
If your current belief gives you sweet fruit, by all means enjoy it. But if doesnt, please rethink dear buddy.
30 - A Concerned Citizen
I'm also interested in hearing your view of things Gonzo. . . in my wanderings through some of the old articles/posts on BC I've found you to be an interesting (and very knowledgeable) guy.
31 - gonzo marx
Richard..you quote "John"..one of the synoptic books, but even there you have differences in the account... the last words spoken, for instance...
where you are going is a metaphor, none of which i Asked about
let me simplify...according to your belief, what day is the sabbath, and why?
we will keep it simple, and stick to that single Question for a moment to allow baseline points to be made by both of us for a start, fair enough?
Excelsior?
32 - Ray Ellis
Actually, looking in the rearview mirror is a good thing to do, but not the only thing. What's with your driving analogies, anyway?
But here's quoting you directly:
Belief in Jesus gives you salvation.
The implications of that statement pretty much reiterate what I said. It puts everything in a "them versus us" context. My version of God has nothing to do with strawberry ice cream, but I do believe that a fair and equitable deity is more complex than to put eternity into such a tiny little box.
33 - gonzo marx
oh yes, side note since your last came up after i posted my last...
i don't require any kind of "bible study"..i'm willing to wager i know more about all kinds of scriptures than most priests or ministers
let's stay for now on the single Question...which day is the sabbath, and why
Excelsior?
34 - zingzing
gonzo, it seems to me like your setting up richard for a beating. it's not really fair...
35 - Richard
Hi Concerned Citizen,
Your ideas are by no means developing or fledgling buddy, its like a tall tree absolutely rooted well...just that my soil is different!
Thank you for your kind words...without appearing a psychophant, I think your words are more mature and more convincing than mine...but as I said before, its the soil that's different. :)
You know buddy, if Jesus wanted His ego satiated in requiring that we believe in Him, He would have come in a knight's armor, with sword in hand on a black stallion! But He came down on earth just like you and me, lived a perfect life without sin and bore our sins on the cross. It is not true that Jesus was arrogative but rather redemptive.
Apropos the Christian idea of salvation, it by no means says that people are away from God. In fact the Bible says that man was made in the image of God. Infact the Bible says that the soul is God's breath. But I do understand where possibly the notion you are talking about comes from.
I would like to hear from you. :)
36 - DukeDeMondo
Regarding the post itself - i thouroughly enjoyed it. beautiful prose, right there.
regarding the comments - to have folks bantering back and forth, completely disagreeing with other, and yet doin so with such patience and genuine desire for understandin of the other (maybe some of the desire stems from understanding so as to affirm a pre-arranged "aha, but!" wihch we're all very guilty of, i dare say. many's a time i've steered a conversation that way myself, hoping for a certain name / book / theory to be mentioned just so as i can slap it to blazes soon the hell as)
yes - fills a fella with a great joy, to be seeing this kind of dignified debate. honestly. lovely, it is.
37 - Richard
(ZingZing - Gonzo is very polite and I appreciate him for that. :) Thanks in advance Gonzo for not beating me! :) :)
OK, Gonzo, I believe that the Sabbath day was institutionalized by God as a covenant to remember how God brough His people out of Israel. While Sabbath is an important day to keep (and I believe any day of the week would be fine, infact I would love to be praying to God all the time), the true substance is of Jesus. This is mentioned in Colossians 2:16. Infact Romans 14:5,6 says "5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."
Over to you.
38 - gonzo marx
you avoid the Question with a direct Answer...
both of your Quotes are allegedly from Paul's letters (Saul of Tarsus) and NOT anything that can even be remotely attributed to Jesus
are you stating that you believe that Paul(Saul) somehow had direct insight into the Mind of "God"?
but, you don't want to directly deal with that one...fine..i was attempting to determine which dogma you adhere to in order to utilize a single example
let's try again
if the 4 "synoptic" texts are indeed "inspired" can you tell me your thoughts concerning , we will go with just two discrepancies...
the last words on the cross, and the text of the sign nailed above the cross
Excelsior?
39 - Richard
Of all Gonzo, I must apologize, as I seem to be coming across to you as being prevaricating. That is not my intention buddy, trust me. I am trying my best to give you direct answers.
Last words were "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (of course I've copy-pasted the words from an online Bible). Also Jesus cried out before giving up His spirit.
Just curious, hows this related to what we are talking about. Anyway, you are in the drivers seat.
40 - gonzo marx
it has to do with two fo the supposed synoptic texts having two different versions of not only those last words, but also of the text nailed onto the cross
it has to do with trying to demonstrate that the works and words of Men are fallible, and nothing to do with anything other than what Man has written
there's more, but the point is moot
Excelsior?
41 - Michael
My question to both is why are you bothering to debate from the text of religious scripture that's been demonstrated to be borrowed from multiple sources that predate Christianity and even Judaism? The Christian Bible has very little originality to it, even in its religious principles.
42 - gonzo marx
Michael, i have not yet gotten into the historical and anthropological origins of many of these texts...
note i have yet to bring up the historical fact of the "Bible" being compiled by Biship Iraneas of Lyon around 180AD
instead i was attempting to determine which version of scriptures was being referenced , and why...then trying to explain and demonstrate some of the inconsistencies within said works of Men
Excelsior?
43 - Michael
I see your point. I presume you realize there's likely to be some resistance in getting to that point, especially now that we've let the cat out of the bag.
Growing up in an Evangelical church, I was always amused by the teachings that we should distrust ephemeral emotions like love, anger, etc but simultaneously always trust in the feeling of faith, that God is out there and He/She/It loves us.
Apparently, we should only trust those feelings that are sanctioned by the church.
44 - A Concerned Citizen
Richard
While I was at karate class I thought of a better way to say what I meant in my prior post. To say or even cognitively believe Jesus is God doesn't increase your awareness of its reality (if it is). I believe that real knowledge, like Enlightenment in Buddhism, is a gradual realization of the Truth. It's not something that can be systemized, but must be known with the intuition. It is an Awakening to the meaning of "I AM".
just that my soil is different!
To continue that analogy, the overall garden's still the same. Even though we have different ways of viewing the same thing, I believe we still have the same intention (to live well and be a good person). :)
#41
The Christian Bible has very little originality to it, even in its religious principles.
I'm no Bible scholar, but maybe it synthesized the information differently? Anyway, no harm in rehashing old wisdom. Lack of originality doesn't make the underlying ethical principles any less true.
45 - gonzo marx
good points, Citizen...
and much of it seems to mirror many of my own thoughts... room enough in Infinity/Eternity for everybody to be right somewhere/when
been a while since i put this up on BC, but it bears repeating
gnosis > dogma
on a side note..what style of karate?
Excelsior?
46 - JC Mosquito
I believe in God. I also believe He was laughing all the way through that exchange between P & the waitress. I suspect His sense of humour is omnipotently sublime. He also chuckles a bunch throughh these exchanges on bc, and not in a mean spirited way. It's a big, beautiful world, and we're meant to enjoy it - even the exchanges that on the surface don't seem so pleasant.
47 - A Concerned Citizen
gnosis > dogma
LOL I like how you tied math into that statement. I think that's actually a great way of saying it.
I take Kenpo, the Ed Parker branch. Different from other styles because it's a lot of in-close, rapid-fire movements. Involved in the martial arts at all?
48 - Max
There are plenty of ways to challenge someone's beliefs without trashing them and being a lame dick.
You get anti-kudos for being unfunny.
49 - JC Mosquito
BTW, all serious & semi serious Bible scholars ought to read the book Jesus for the Non-Religious by Bishop John Shelby Spong. In some ways, it's a book that seems to say true gnosis = the mundane. Best of all, you can still believe in Jesus without having to believe all the other weird stuff that goes along with mainstream (and alternative) Christianity.
50 - A Concerned Citizen
Max, who're you talking to?
51 - gonzo marx
i think he means the Article itself
which i found pretty funny without being abusive...
i would have been quite a bit more aggressive about it a minute or two into the conversation
but then, i have no problem with people's Faith..i DO have a problem with evangelizing it towards me..i consider it rude, and rudeness towards me gets a response pretty quickly
whereas folks like Richard here, who are polite, get polite discussion in return
could just be me
Excelsior?
52 - gonzo marx
Ed Parker stuff...most excellent choice, imo!
yeah..i was involved from '69 - '96
ba gua/hsing-i, wing chun, a bunch of other bits and pieces here and there in a type of Jeet Kune Do "any tool you find" philosophy...a bouncer for about 8 years after my time in the military...some teaching over the years
hence why i asked
:::bows, hand over fist:::
Excelsior?
53 - Michael
Wisdom is wisdom wherever you get it. "A soft answer turneth away wrath" really can work, but "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" does not. A text that uses itself as the authority for the existence of God is questionable at best.
54 - JC Mosquito
"A text that uses itself as the authority for the existence of God is questionable at best." - Michael.
True enough, which is why it's a good idea to verify that in the real world.
Interestingly enough, we've come to the point as a society that we prove our citizenship, credit and very existence by our documents - questionable at best, also.
Interestlingly enough also - Micha-el - in Hebrew, isn't "el" a designation meaning "of God" (Hebrew scholars correct me if I'm way off base, please).
55 - Les Slater
#11 Richard,
"If somebody would have told the little foetus in the womb that there is no life after the 9 months...and the foetus believed...it would surely die...it would not develop itself and not prepare for life "after birth"."
The analogy that you are striving for is fatally flawed. On what basis do you give to the foetus, at any stage of its development, the ability to understand, even the concept of life, nevermind, its ability to stop its own development and die?
Les
56 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Paotie,
I thoroughly enjoyed your story. Sounds like something I might have done in America when confronted with these people who just HAD to try to shovel Christianity down my throat.
I did face a situation somewhat analogous to this once in Bet Shemesh seven years ago. We were on a pilot trip here, really an effort to convince my wife (who had no desire at all to leave Minnesota) to move here, and we were strolling in Bet Shemesh's main drag early Friday afternoon.
A young lady in a longish skirt walked over to me purposefully and handed me two small candles in a package, along with instructions on what to do with them. They were Sabbath candles, to be lit a half hour before sundown on Feriday night (sorry Gonzo) to inaugurate the Sabbath.
The instructions were in Russian.
I looked at my wife and told her in loud clear English, "you see, dear, in Israel we really do look like Russians. In fact, if you take a Russian, give him a tan, take his bottle of vodka away and give him coffee instead, and have him talk Hebrew, what you have is an Israeli. Now, if that girl had given us instructions in Hebrew...."
At that very moment, as I was saying "Hebrew", another young lady, dressed like the first one, equally purposeful in her stride, came over and grabbed the Russian sheet out of my hand and handed me one in Hebrew...
Note to JC Mosquito: Michael - From the Hebrew, meaning “Who is like God?” In the Bible (BaMidbar/Numbers 13:13), a member of the tribe of Asher.
Note to Richard: Gonzo Marx shaves with Ockham's Razor. He is sharpening it on its strop now - I can see the glint of it in the dappled Maine sun...
57 - A Concerned Citizen
i DO have a problem with evangelizing it towards me..i consider it rude
Same thing with me -- especially as I've found most of the evangelizers to be completely irrational about it.
That video was great -- the monk spent the whole time toying with the TKD guy. I love the smirk on his face haha. Anyway, I don't have any experience with wing chun, but I definitely like the "whatever works" philosophy of JKD.
text that uses itself as the authority for the existence of God is questionable at best.
Agreed, 100%.
58 - gonzo marx
now Ruvy...nothing in your anecdote for me to *cut*
i'm all for whatever works to bring solace to an Individual
my difficulty arises when it spills over onto others in an intolerant fashion, even more so when conflict arises over something "because God said so"..especially when it was Man who "said so", claiming to know the Mind of God
THAT is why i tend to break out the razor that Ruvy gives me credit for wielding, to show that when folks quote from scriptural sources as if it was the direct "word of God", they are really quoting men who make claims.
example: 21 books of the New Testament (out of 27) are attributed to Paul (Saul of Tarsus), a man who persecuted Christians for Rome until the day he fell down on the road to Damascus, had a "vision" and then proceeded to write and evangelize as a Christian...
now, scholars contend one of those books might indeed have been written directly by him...the rest were taken as dictation by scribes...some of the later "letters" are contended to have been written by such scribes and then attributed to Paul to lend weight to them
yet ALL of these are treated by some as the infallible "Word"
my razor asks, who said so? if this schmuck can have "inspired visions", then who else has? John Smith of the Mormons? Mohammed? the Dalai Lama?
i contend there is nothing written on this earth that was not written by a human being, and thus all is as frail and fallible as we are...sham, pretense, delusion and outright Lies are all that any other kind of claim can be
whatever there is, lives in each and every one of us, no more and no less...it's the Choices we make with every breath that defines us...not what another human claims in some book
is there Wisdom in some writings? of course
the Wisdom of Humanity
nuff said?
Excelsior?
59 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Gonzo,
This piece by Paotie was satire. So here, I keep the patter light. Generally I explain "my ideas in the articles I write or in comments.
60 - JC Mosquito
Gonzo - I've always seen the Bible as divinely inspired, or "written" as one might say, but even as a human bweing can only write well depending on the tools he or shes uses, the Holy Spirit has to use what ever he can get his hands on. Unfortunately, sometimes he probably had to use the human equivlent of a broken crayon, or a pointed stick. The message isn't always easy to read, so anyone who says they have the definitive interpretation is likely just self deluded (including myself).
61 - gonzo marx
Ruvy..i know, i was just teasing back (and will read your links forthwith)
JC - and there's the rub...this inspiration by the "Holy Spirit" claim made by some
as i Asked previously...how does one know that such is inspired by what? we have only the claims of those doing the writing...and who judges which is truly divine inspiration, and which is delusion?
why were some scriptures chosen as "authentic" for the Bible, and others not so? what disqualifies the Book of Mormon under said criteria, or the Qu'ran?
merely the Opinion of Men
Excelsior?
62 - JC Mosquito
To believe divine inspirations starts and ends with the Bible is the problem - there are lots of other places to find it.
63 - gonzo marx
to believe in "divine" anything is the problem, to believe that some kind of outside Influence "inspires", rather than something within is my difficulty
i'm funny like that, and require empirical data, having an innate distrust of the snake oil salesman
Excelsior?
64 - Leslie Bohn
JC:
Why would an omnipotent, all powerful god have to "use what ever he can get his hands on. Unfortunately, sometimes he probably had to use the human equivlent of a broken crayon, or a pointed stick?"
Why wouldn't he use the era's Shakespeare? Sounds pretty far-fetched that god himself couldn't find a decent ghostwriter. He could have asked Homer, or perhaps Plato, to recommend someone.
65 - gonzo marx
"ghostwriter" - lmgdao!!!
a holy ghost writer is what some profess...
my esoteric take on the idea
Excelsior?
66 - JC Mosquito
Good point, Leslie. But look at who gets picked for the hard work in the Bible:
1) read Moses' encounter with God on the mountain where Moses tries desperatwely to weasel his way out of having to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt;
2) Jonah, who is told to go to Nineveh - and promptly grabs the next boat in the other direction;
3) David, who sends a soldier into harm's way so he can get his (hopefully soon to be) widow;
4) Saul of Tarsus - a persecutor of Christians who ends up on of the leaders of the early church;
5) Peter, impulsive & not too brilliant fisherman - who, like Wile E. Coyote, tries walking on water & falls in like he's in some Roadrunner cartoon; denies Jesus in his hour of need, who had earlier pulled out the ol' sword/knife to defend Jesus and promptly attacks... the high priest's servant - and yet becomes another leader of the early church.
Nah - God has no interest in getting "only the best" working for Him; anyone who's ready to work is welcome - heck, even if you're not ready to work, you're still welcome.
It's a big, beautiful world out there - if you want to believe that can be so without believing in God, that's your business - I'm certainly saying that in my experience, my world is a richer place for my belief. I find it explains things that science can't, and leaves room for me to accept mystery in its deepest sense as part of the natural function of the universe. And I hope you don't think I'm some Bible thumpin' redneck - maybe a redneck in some aspects, but the fundamentalist point of view is something to which I would be in totally opposition, except I think some people can't read anything in a literate way, so I accept the fact that it'll have to do for them - as long as they don't thump me in the process.
And I'm not always sure of it - I have my moments of doubt, but something always comes along to tell me it's ok to do that too. Look at it this way - if I'm right, one day in eternity we'll all look back and have a good laugh at ourselves blogging our opinions to each other. And if it turns out you're right, we'll then I guess I was wrong and that's about it, isn't it?
Ahh, gonzo - I think I asked you this once before - you like empirical data - have you any room for a sense of mystery - the unknowable, the unpredictable? You know, it's fun to watch the snakeoil salesman get shivved with Occam's Razor... but sometimes the truth is much more complicated than could almost be imagined, and we only get glimpses of it. I mean, who's to say or not say this series of comments itself isn't divinely inspired?
Pax vobiscum to y'all,
Skeeter.
67 - Paotie
JC Mosquito ..
Your #5 point - LOL -
Thanks.
:o)
Paotie
68 - gonzo marx
JC - plenty of room for everything within Allternity...that's my View
the Mystery - everywhere and in everything, the fact that my Will can move my fingers to type fills me with Awe every time i think about it, even when i have plenty of empirical data to tell me the mechanics of how it occurs
as for "unknowable"..only thing i think is completely unknowable at this point is what happens to the energy that makes up our Will/Mind after we die...
Einstein says matter(energy) cannot be created or destroyed...only change states
there's enough Mystery there for me
do i think there is something more? yep...purely subjective moments of personal gnosis coming from my past practice in the martial arts, where instants have occurred where the sum was greater than the whole of it's parts
in gung fu this is known as "moving with the Tao", or even "actions in harmony with the will of heaven"
as i say, purely subjective, and i can't explain it...but that doesn't mean there isn't an explanation
hence why i have always stated i am apostate and heretic, but an agnostic by philosophy
because in all honesty..i just don't Know
Excelsior?
69 - JC Mosquito
Gentlemen, ladies.. thank you for your time today. We'll likely hash this all out again in the quarterly God vs. No God meeting here on bc. See you then - unless of course, the 'Pocalypse happens before that....
70 - Les Slater
#68 Gonzo,
I like you comments about Gnosis and martial arts. One of the most important books to effect my thinking has been the "Mathematical Theory of Communication" by Shannon and Weaver. Another thing fitting in here were Trotsky's comments about suppressed animal instincs coming to the fore when under intense pressure in a sustained critical situation.
Les
71 - duane
Holy Nodes of Ranvier, gonzo! The "energy that makes up our Will/Mind"? What is that? We have a brain, which is made from ordinary matter, organized into a marvelous machine that runs on biochemical energy, sucking up about 25 watts under normal operation. The energy is supplied by ingestion and digestion of food.
"Mind" is just a grandiose term associated with higher brain function. "Will" is our need and ability to conceive of an action, then take it, the exercise of volition, no doubt an evolutionary adaptation. Mind, will, consciousness, emotion, self-awareness, etc. are all biological functions of our flesh-and-blood brains.
When we die, the brain's supply of energy is cut off, and the brain stops converting energy (which could be taken as a definition of death). The brain tissue, like the rest of our body, will break down chemically and be eaten by little beasties. Ah, the grand circle of Life. You are suggesting that there is a residual form of "brain energy" that continues on after death. The existence of such is beyond our current scientific understanding, akin to belief in a soul. Do you believe in some kind of afterlife? If so, based on what evidence or belief system? (I'm not saying that I don't, by the way -- just wanted to get your take on things).
Eh, thanks ....
72 - duane
Oh, ooops, gonzo. I guess I should have finished reading your #68 before beginning my yak. OK, so it has to do with some altered state of consciousness that you experienced? Please to elucidate.
73 - gonzo marx
heh...duane, you have more info than the rest on this due to a previous e-mail
as i said, when it comes to the Moment of death, and the possibility of anything afterwards...i don't Know, the above rant is sheer speculation
a long time ago, i read a Russian study on the subject, they put some terminal folks on a bed on top of a scale, and monitored the weight, up to the moment of death and a few minutes afterward
after many tests and all kinds of calculations, they came up a few ounces short that couldn't be explained
not reading too much into it, and damned if i can find it...wracking my brains and scouring my personal library trying to find it to get you where it came from and exact numbers...but i just can't seem to lay hands on it (not surprising after how many times i've moved over the years...could still be in the attic of my old arcade, which is torn down now)
as for the medical science versus the metaphysical issue of Mind/Will...i understand the normal explanations, and find some of it unsatisfying...not too mention that there is so much even the experts don't know about our brains
all this adds up to why i claim agnosticism...not enough convincing data either way
but i am fairly certain in my statements about scriptural things...i know the history and anthropological data pretty well as well as the archaeological data
a sonic Joke, for duane and anyone interested
Excelsior?
74 - duane
OK, gonzo. I think I read something somewhere some time about weighing the soul. I think it was subsequently debunked based on unreliable measurement techniques. I'm fairly certain that if evidence for such was available, it would cause more than a minor stir in the scientific community --- we would have heard about it. It would be huge, don't you agree?
It's true that most of the brain is not yet understood. But the rate of progress in understanding things neuro is staggering. I choose to be patient.
And now, for something completely different ....
From the Monty Python skit Penguin on the Television
1: Per'aps it's from next door.
2: (yelling) NEXT DOOR?!? Penguins don't come from NEXT DOOR! They come from the Antarctic!
.
.
.
1: Per'aps it's from the zoo.
2: Which zoo?
1: (angrily) 'ow should I know which zoo it's from?!? I'm not Doctor bloody Bernofsky!!
2: 'Oo's Doctor bloody Bernofsky?
1: He knows everything.
2: Oooh, I wouldn't like that, that'd take all the mystery out of life.
Doesn't that just about sum it up? There is in many (if not most) people a desire to be surrounded by mystery. Anyone in touch with themselves enough to know why this is? Is the world too banal and horrible to accept as is? My claim is that the Universe AS IS contains so much grandeur and so many "miracles" that commonly held belief systems in the supernatural are prosaically mundane by comparison.
75 - gonzo marx
well duane, i can easily agree that what we have and can observe already is indeed plenty of Mystery on it's own...i say so earlier in the thread, even
i think that since dying is universal among every possibility in the human experience...the ultimate Unknown....that it remains the great Mystery
and you know where a penguin comes from cuz it's tattoo'd on the back of their neck
Excelsior?