Across Europe there have been increasing demands for the banning of burqas and nicabs, the traditional Muslim female dress, and some countries have already passed legislation.
Belgium in April made it illegal to wear the full Islamic veil in public. In Spain, Barcelona has banned the wearing of the full-face veil in public buildings including markets and libraries. France too has banned their use in public places.
Some have argued that it is a question of security, that we need to be able to identify the person and that veils hide their identity from us. We are suspicious of anyone who does not display their faces thinking that they necessarily have something to hide.
But we have never been particularly worried about people wearing crash helmets, hoods on anoraks, scarves covering most of the face, and so on.
Another argument advanced is that women in Islamic countries are oppressed by the requirement to hide their faces with the burqa or nicab. By insisting on the removal of the veil, it is argued, we are somehow helping these women to free themselves from oppression.
But this line of argument is difficult to sustain if the process includes a large measure of coercion. How can denying women the right to wear what they want to free them from the oppression of the veil? How is the balance to be reached between the rights of the individual woman to choose what to wear, and the legal requirement preventing them from exercising that choice? We might not agree with the choice, but surely we do agree with the freedom to have the choice?
But in any case, there is a subtext to the calls for banning burqas and nicabs. No one is arguing for banning the Jewish headdress, the kippa, nor the turbans of Sikhs, nor the headdresses worn by nuns, or the surplices worn by priests. The focus is specifically on Islamic dress.
When the French banned the burqa, they didn't do it just where identification is essential such as in public buildings. They did it in all public places, including in the street. What was the justification? Cultural assimilation.
When someone from a foreign country comes to live and work in our own, we naturally expect and hope that they will get used to the customs and ways of the new country and will be able to live here happily. Understanding the laws and traditions of a new country is seen as important in helping newcomers to assimilate.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Irene Athena
Feminists had nothing to do with this?
I agree with you, Bob Lloyd. Muslim parents have every right to dress their little girls up in clothes that tell the world, "Hey! I'm a Muslim."
2 - Dr Dreadful
Jeannie, on the grounds of liberté, which is supposed to be one of the cornerstone principles of the French nation, I don't agree with the ban, but as Bob says, if you're going to ban an item of dress, whether it be on religion/state separation terms or on cultural identity terms, you've got to be consistent. Otherwise, I'm going to call bullshit and hypocrisy.
And the fact that 8 out of 10 French people reportedly support the ban suggests to me even more strongly that this has more to do with fear of Islam than with anything else.
3 - Irene Athena
I'm just yanking your chain.
The only problem I see with burquas on kids (which would be the only compulsorily worn burquas in France) involve safety concerns. If the burquas can be made so that they don't get in the way of playing or studying, then there's no problem.
4 - jeannie danna
Jeannie? I haven't commented yet.
5 - Cindy
Maybe they can make the pope stop wearing that ridiculous hat. And those nuns...what horrible outfits they have.
6 - Irene Athena
Dr. Dreadful? Why did you call me Jeannie? I was surprised to see no reference to feminism *at all* in the article. Surely the feminist's voice wasn't a completely marginal one.
7 - Cindy
And the fact that 8 out of 10 French people reportedly support the ban suggests to me that 8 out of 10 people are nuts.
8 - Dr Dreadful
Apologies, Irene. Don't know why I thought you were Jeannie.
[reboots brain]
9 - Dr Dreadful
Cindy (#7): Quite possibly a conservative estimate. :-)
10 - Cindy
Feminists aren't a monolithic group. As a feminist I find banning clothing a big problem.
I'd like to see every feminist throw her/his own garb in the trash before trashing what other people choose to wear. High heels? stockings? ties? suits? bras? Who decided that these items represent liberation?
11 - Irene Athena
The questions is *CAN* they be made so they don't get in the way of play or safety. If they are to be banned, then it should be a ban on the basis of safety alone, not for what the burqua symbolises.
12 - Dr Dreadful
Interestingly, a link in one of Irene's links relates that an archaic Parisian law which prohibits women from wearing trousers in public is still on the books.
It's universally ignored nowadays, of course, which I suppose might be one way of approaching the burqa ban.
13 - jeannie danna
Bob,
I'm torn in two by your article.
One side of me says, "Show me a woman that wants to cover her entire body in a bee-keepers suit, or risk being disfigured or murdered for disobedience by the men in her life." I don't really believe one exists.
The other side can see your reasoning why it is an invasion of someone's culture and religion to officially dictate this ban. although, How much say do the women have in this culture?
: )good to see you...how's the land of Woo?
14 - jeannie danna
Cindy,
Who decided that these items represent liberation?
The same fools that invented the thong and Booty Pop Panties!
: ) ouch!
15 - Bob Lloyd
It's an interesting question as to whether or not banning a burka helps the women suffering from oppression. It may equally mean that their patriarchal controllers don't even let them out of the house. Or it could mean that they gain confidence in rejecting a restrictive form of dress.
But there is a deeper assumption amongst feminists who want to see the burka banned, and that is that all women want the same thing culturally. In fact, the research carried out by Hester Eisenstein for her book Feminism Seduced, shows clearly that this isn't so. Many islamic women see the veil as a matter of personal religious choice, as a chosen expression of modesty.
If the state comes along and refuses them permission to dress this way, they would feel that to be a violation of their rights. Many islamic women already have a choice about how they dress and exercise that choice themselves: some wear a veil and some do not. In secular societies, they can see all around them the available option of breaking with a tradition they do not want to subscribe to.
Of course, in cases such as the Taliban or the Iran of the Ayatollahs, the state regiments dress and social practices and they are heavily patriarchal societies. But so are societies run along the lines of the major religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Hinduism. I find them all equally horrendous.
Personally, I feel the burka, when imposed, serves to reinforce the notion of women as property but many muslim women see western marriage in the same light. I see the sudden concern for the plight of islamic women from Republican and Democratic politicians, to be in stark contrast to their willingness to trade and maintain amicable relations with dictatorial and repressive regimes without any consideration of the position of women in those societies.
In the UK, for example, whilst the politicians all express their distaste for the burka, they are busy putting through packages of social spending cuts, 75% of which will fall on women.
And on the comment "Hey, I'm a Muslim", I find it pretty horrendous that Christian parents will cheerfully declare their four-year-olds to be Christian when the child does not even have the ability to distinguish what is being talked about. To me, all religion is irrational but it is still understandable as a social phenomenon.
16 - jeannie danna
Irene,
I liked your links...Salon is cool.
:)
17 - zingzing
"Who decided that these items represent liberation?"
people trying to sell shit.
18 - Dr Dreadful
Cindy, as I understand it, the argument of the 1960s bra-burning movement was that the bra - which was invented by a man - was nothing more than a devious male ploy to get women's boobs to remain perky, thereby forcing women into pursuing a certain body image solely for male gratification.
Of course, there are numerous female garments and accoutrements one could say that about, but the bra was chosen as a particularly striking symbol.
19 - jeannie danna
Many islamic women see the veil as a matter of personal religious choice, as a chosen expression of modesty.
Maybe their afraid to say otherwise.
20 - jeannie danna
I'd like to see my husband in a thong, but he will not go for it! : )
21 - Dr Dreadful
I feel I should mention the point that some Muslim women say that wearing the niqab or the burqa does give them freedom, because they don't have to worry about what they look like or whether they are measuring up to male expectations.
Not that I agree with that point, but it has been made.
22 - Irene Athena
Bpb Lloyd, write another WHOLE article around this excision from your last comment, and I'll come by and leave praising comments completely vetted for snark. :) Right on.
I see the sudden concern for the plight of islamic women from Republican and Democratic politicians, to be in stark contrast to their willingness to trade and maintain amicable relations with dictatorial and repressive regimes without any consideration of the position of women in those societies.
23 - jeannie danna
Doc,
#18
I have often thought that's the reason for wedding rings. keeps you from getting fat!
24 - Irene Athena
Wow, Cindy, Jeannie and me all on the same thread at the same time. PA PUFF GOOLS!
25 - Cindy
20 LOL Jeannie.