Am I racist?
I found myself asking myself this question today. Like most things, I decided to ask you. I was shopping at a diamond store today, never mind you why (ok, pinky ring for me!). As I walked around I noticed two young and fit black guys (sorry, I am not a big fan of the term African American... and it takes way too long to type) who were in athletic wear. We were about 10 minutes from the Broncos HQ and practice facility, and my first thought was 'those must be Denver Broncos players'. That was my first thought. My second thought was 'Why? Does everyone who is young and black and successful have to be an athlete? Can't black people succeed in your corporate world too, you cracker?" So then I wanted to see if they were, because I am a huge Bronco fan and figured I would recognize them if I got a long enough look. Plus, I figured if I got a better glimpse and they were Broncos... then I wouldn't have been racist, just observant!…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Shark
As RJ and Manning continue to discuss "race" relations in America, I'm reminded of how little hope there is for the future of humankind.
Thanks guys!
Anyway, here are a few free tips to make a better future for you boyz and your dying planet:
1) Your tribe is "homo sapiens". Figure out the implications of that one and get back to me.
2) Your brain has other components besides the reptilian-limbic-territorial-imperative area; use 'em.
3) Your attitude toward others only feeds your own fear.
But then again, you seem to kinda like that.
...Never mind.
27 - JR
Blacks have been in this country much longer than any of the groups you mentioned above, and yet the problem continues. Assimilation is the key here.
So, when Little Richard learns to sing like Pat Boone, we got no more problems?
28 - Mark Edward Manning
Shark, did you even see comment 24?
Yes?
And you ignored it as usual. How surprising.
29 - Sandra Smallson
Mark Edward Manning: Is that so, Sandra? So I take it that if you're walking home alone on a deserted street, and a homey in a hoodie comes struting up behind you, you don't feel any fear whatsoever? This sounds like something I'd expect to hear from a guilty white liberal living in a lilly-white neighborhood.
Sandra: Err..I will never be walking alone on a deserted street if I have any choice in the matter. I rarely walk alone on crowded streets. I rarely walk in fact except on a treadmill. I drive or am chauffered around.
Now, to your point. Should I for some unknown reason find myself on this deserted street and a "homey in a hoodie" is walking anywhere near me, I will be terrified. Same way I would be terrified if its a white dude in a hoodie. In actual fact, if I am walking alone on a deserted street, I would be petrified of any man walking on that same street even if he was wearing a nicely tailored suit from Saville row.
I am perplexed as to why you would expect to hear my comment from a guilty "white liberal living in a lilly-white neighnourhood".
I am also afraid of walking on a deserted street in a lilly-white neighbourhood. It's a case of choosing your poison. Do you want to be stabbed and robbed(homey in a hoodie, perhaps) or do you want to be gagged, bound, raped, mutilated, perhaps decapitated and maybe have your family find your remains in someones fridge, attic or back garden(lilly-white neighbourhood). It all terrifies me. Which is exactly my point. The way anyone dresses is an absurd point to raise as something that should induce fear.
I think you would find that most women agree with my comments regarding being afraid of ANY man or even person being anywhere near you while you walk on a deserted street. Even cats and dogs induce fear at that point.
30 - bhw
I think you would find that most women agree with my comments regarding being afraid of ANY man or even person being anywhere near you while you walk on a deserted street. Even cats and dogs induce fear at that point.
I was with you up to the cats. But dogs, yes, scary.
31 - P6
Amazing.
Just curious: how many of you that feel threatened by hoodies have actually been attacked? And I didn't ask if you were threatened because there's no way to prove the threat is or is not an internally generated feeling.
It's funny, Black folks know which of the kids are a problem, and we don't base it on their clothing.
And to Mr: Manning:
"This barrier" is a couple hundred years old and purposefully constructed. I can't believe you don't know that, and I will not even attempt too support common knowledge. But anyone who doubts it should wait for the PBS special coming up in February: Slavery and the Making of America. Impatient folks can check this, from an earlier PBS special, Africans in America.
This is true, and it's one of the things that disturb me most aboutrace relations. Why are the only reactions white folk have to Black folks either Conservative Defensiveness or Liberal Guilt? Because I have to tell you, as long as those are your only choices "this barrier" will never fall.
32 - P6
And did you HAVE to link that piece of shit D'Souza book?
33 - HW Saxton
P6,I can only speak for myself, but I've
never felt ANY liberal guilt or ANY sort
of defensive conservatism when speaking
to black folks I know. Or anyone else of
any other color for that matter.
Some of us truly like other people and
we try to treat them respectfully no
matter their gender,economic status,race
or religion,blah blah blah etc, in hopes
that we'll be treated with respect and
dignity by the other party.
At the very least, by doing this,I might
help dispel someone's pre-conceived view
of me/my skin color(if they have one),I
might just make a new friend or business
contact.I might just be the inspiration
for someone else to do the same. I can't
proffer this up as an end all solution
to race problems but strictly speaking
on a personal level it works for me.
You know P6, that by painting all white
people with such a broad stroke of the
brush with statements such as the above,
about their reactions to black people
(guilt/defense)that you're being a bit
of a racist yourself for pre-supposing &
pre-judging people.
PS: For what it's worth,I think avoiding
any group of teenaged guys in hoodies is
a smart move, no matter what their color
may be.
34 - Mark Edward Manning
You know, threads like this get interesting because some people get so touchy about the topic of race/racism that you begin to wonder if they've got something to hide.
Just for the record, I will gladly join anyone in a good bash of white trash. HW Saxton makes a good point about avoiding anyone in a hoodie, regardless of race. "Homies" can be white too.
But for all the talk about how we're all homo sapiens and need to get past our racist tendencies, this statement should be directed at everyone. It's not just whites who are guilty of harboring racist thoughts, so why do those who get their knickers in a twist about it pretend otherwise?
In a book I read called Refusal Shoes, a work of fiction based on the author's real experience working in British immigration control, an Indian immigration officer deliberately denies blacks entry because he doesn't like them.
I'll bet racism like that coming from someone who - GOLLY! - isn't white would make a lot of people's heads spin!
35 - P6
Mr. Saxton:
Nonsense. I'm not pre-supposing or pre-judging, I'm pre-paring. The broad brush is applying a base to the canvas on which details are applied.
Liberal guilt came as the first response to seeing on TV how truly fucked Black folks were under the Dixiecrat regime (and yes, the North had the same issues, but differently manifest--like a different tone being used for the base).
Our current political state is wholly a reaction of Conservative Anger (remember Angry White Men? all the rage against being constrained in [collective] your choice of terms used to refer to folks?)
Now we are all reacting to the reactions.
Mr. Manning:
I think you'll find I'm neither touchy nor hiding anything. Search for posts and comments I've made on Blogcritics.
White folks are doing fine telling Black folks we are racist. You don't need my help there.
Similarly, I consider long term solutions because short term reactions don't work, even though that's all that gets discussed in our instant gratification culture.
Long term, white folks geting correct has the greatest impact because (collective) white folks have all the social and cultural power in the USofA. Always has...as proven by the FACT that the "Conservative revolution" took exactly ONE election to change the entire direction of the country.
It's a figure-ground thing. Black folks' racism is figure, white folks' racism is ground.
White folks' racism is the texture on the canvas that the paint of Black folks' racism clings to.
36 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo
lono, that right there was a brave post, and illustrates a progressive ideology at work, i would guess. but then what the fuck do i know?
Here's an amusing anecdote.
A friend of a friend (they're real people, honest to fuck) was taken to New York by her hubbie for a shopping trip thing (being from the northern ireland, this is quite extravagant, as you can imagine). Anyhow, this lady has a phobia of black people. Honest to god, like me with spiders (no homosexual quips you fuckin freudians). She maintains she's not racist, that's it's some psychological thing. I dunno. Anyway, the husband was somewhere else, and she got in the lift in the hotel (a very swanky number it was. the hotel, not the lift), and a black fella got in alongside her. She started to have a fuckin panic attack (im not making this up), and then two other black gentlemen entered, and she pased out.
Anyhow, all was well and she got to her room and got checked over and so on, and when they were about to leave, the fella at the desk told them everything had been paid for. There was a bouquet of flowers waiting for her, and a motherfuckin limo to take her to the airport. She wanted to know who had arranged all this, and so looked at the card on the floors, as you would. "Thanks for the best laugh i've had in years... Will Smith".
It was only will fuckin smith and his minders!!! Anyhow, the husband had explained the situation and apologised a million times while the wife was unconscious. Will had found it hilarious.
So there you go.
37 - RJ
Will Smith has claimed he wil be the first black President. With political savvy like THAT, hell, he just might be...
38 - Phillip Winn
Real people? Come on, The Duke, that's one of the oldest stories in the book.
39 - P6
That's okay, Phillip. I've noticed race discussions here need to have something humorous or ridiculous of something slotted in once in a while.
The Rappin' Duke has done us a service (duh-huh, duh-huh...).
I kind of wich you hadn't exposed it. It would have been interesting to see who else bit.
40 - bhw
I saw/heard Henry Louis Gates, Jr. speak at my grad school many moons ago. He told a story about going for a Sunday morning walk with a friend, another black man, who was visiting. They were in Gates' own very upper middle class neighborhood, walking on the sidewalk, and wearing sweats.
As they turned a corner, they saw an older white woman walking toward them on the same sidewalk. They saw her startled and frightened look, so he and his friend simultaneously but without any planning, overtly tried to make the woman feel more comfortable by smiling big smiles and saying nice, articluate "good mornings" to her, and by giving her the right of way on the sidewalk.
Both he and his friend went into the knee-jerk reaction of trying to make *her* more comfortable, even though she was the one with the problem. They both knew they did it, but they didn't like feeling like they owed the woman extra evidence that they weren't dangerous just because they were black.
These were two 40-ish, educated, upper-middle-class men who happened to be black and who happened to be wearing sweats because they were getting some exercise on a Sunday morning. And yet they were perceived as a threat. Both men believed that it was their skin color that made the difference. They didn't feel that two white men in sweats would have elicited the same respose from the woman.
I think they're right.
41 - P6
Oof. Talk about internalizing the image.
42 - bhw
Yep. That was part of what he talked about after telling the story.
43 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo
phil... HAHAHA i HONEST TO GOD didn't know that was a spoof! I feel very cheated. i was only told it last night, so, there you go. Of course i do feel very smug now, that i can say to the folks in question about its a pack a nonsense.
haha god almighty. I been duped like a motherfucker.
44 - Eric Olsen
Will Smith comes in and cleans our bathrooms when it fits his schedule, and we don't even have to pay him: helluva guy
45 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo
well, it's a step-up from Men In Black II
46 - Shark
Duped de Mondo has a nice ring to it.
47 - Dan
I have, on occasion, came across an elderly person who seemed apprehensive of my presence, and just as the gentlemen in bhw's story, made the extra effort to put them at ease. It didn't occur to me that they had a "problem". I guess I "internalized the image" as well. Is that a bad thing?
48 - P6
Describe the image you'v e internalized and I'll tell you.
49 - Al Barger
Obviously you are all deep seated so-called scientific racists and high officials of the Klan and other right wing front groups, as you are all well dossiered at my civil rights blogs...
Sorry. Just missing ol' girl a little. Only a little bit, though.
Plus, it ain't the same when I write it. I can't get that high-tone thing down, quite.
50 - P6
Now that I've established I'm neither sensitive nor hiding anything, let's see if you all are willing to reciprocate.
Please, tell me what are "threads like these"? I'd really like to know why I've seen them pop up here and there since the days when Usenet was useful.
51 - Lono
Wow, this response is unlike any other I have ever had. It was a whim when I posted this and promoted it up from my wee little blog. It's a pretty heavy topic, and a lot of me hoped it would disappear away. Fortunately, I guess I am asking the good questions. So, comment on and have a great holiday. I will be on the road for the next couple of weeks and so will most likely be unable to post. I'll still comment and read, but probably won't post.
Best wish for a great holiday my friends,
Lono
52 - Eric Olsen
probably the most difficult and longet running issue is which interpersonal behavior and assumptions are related to race and which are not. Some people put race at or near the top of the mental checklist and some put it much farther down, and the checklist itself has often (quickly) become the subject of controversy and discord
53 - P6
Hence my question. I'd rather not make any assumptions.
54 - Eric Olsen
nor would I, which is why threads like this have been able to flourish without acrimony of late
55 - P6
Okay, and you know I'm cool with it all.
But I'm still waiting to hear what differentiates "threads like this."
56 - andy marsh
The people commenting is what differentiates them of late! It has been a lot more hospitable around here lately! People have been free to disagree without being labelled one thing or another!
57 - Mark Edward Manning
Er ... RJ and I were both accused of being reptilian-brained racists by the estimable Shark. It wasn't as free from acrimony as you think.
And the "threads like these" comment was in reference to the fact that we were discussing race - and the knee-jerk reactions that would elicit from "sensitive" individuals.
58 - andy marsh
MEM - I thought he was just calling you Neandertals!
59 - Eric Olsen
threads explicitly about race
60 - Eric Olsen
and I didn't say it's perfect, just better
61 - Dan
"Describe the image you'v e internalized and I'll tell you."
It was a rhetorical question P6, so I'm not looking for help. But thanks.
To elaborate more explicitly:
In comment #40, bhw describes Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s account of encountering an elderly white woman who appeared "startled and frightened" by an encounter with the two black men. Gates' rationale for the womans percieved fear was racism. Which bhw described as her "problem". Never-the-less, Gates and his friend behaved admiribly, as gentlemen, but felt put out by having to provide "extra evidence that they weren't dangerous just because they were black."
My point is that I've had similar experiences with apprehensiveness, particularly elderly women, but no racial motive to blame. As Sandra said in comment #29, which bhw agreed with in comment #30: "I think you would find that most women agree with my comments regarding being afraid of ANY man or even person being anywhere near you while you walk on a deserted street." It could be true, I don't know.
Without more evidence, I see nothing to indicate that the womans percieved fear was racially motivated. So it seems almost as likely that the "problem" could have been Gates' in that he projected a race motive on to the woman where none existed.
62 - P6
It would have been helpful if you'd just said that. I took your phrasing for snideness.
63 - bhw
I think Dan was being snide.
I believe one of the essential details about Gates' story was that it wasn't a "deserted street," but a suburban street in an upper-middle class neighborhood.
My response to Sandra was tongue in cheek. Notice the cat/dog comment.
64 - Shark
Manning, I NEVER CALLED YOU A RACIST. Not once.
(Although I am tempted to call you a semi-literate moron...)
As a matter of fact, I stated one of the (FEW) defining aspects of this issue:
SHARK: "We're all 'racists'. The key to the game is recognizing that and overcoming it."
That "WE" is all inclusive, bubbles, which means Shark is implicated in the 'crime'.
Comprende?
The rest of this thread is mostly a bunch of moronic bullshit by people who aren't too skilled at thinking.
(That would be you, Manning. Remember this bit of your brilliance? ""...if you want insist on living up to the stereotype, then you will be looked upon with suspicion and fear." I suspect that you're not even smart enough to see how stupid this statement is.)
As to the 'reptilian' reference; read it again.
If you can read...
65 - P6
So this is the point where it gets personal.
I intended to post something, but I think I'll give folks a couple days break again.
66 - RitchCracker
I don't think Asians, Italians, or the Irish had to endure the "Coloreds Only" fountains, entrances, jobs, and housing. Slavery gave whites the heads up on the CONTROL of resources, including immigration policies and politics. I also don't think any of those groups endured slavery and all that it entailed such as
__being forbidden to read and write
__being SOLD from family, thus not being able to build upon generation to generation of inherited wealth or consolidated wealth, etc, etc.
We're are talking about a group of people, who on their own, despite our efforts,
__established schools for themselves (HBCUs) when they were flat out DENIED entry into ours for being black
__established their own loaning system through the church, because banks DENIED them loans for small businesses, houses, land, etc. Church funds from poor communities could only go so far
__established small communities of their own, etc, etc
But you know what happened.... their isolated success became a threat to us. These eventually freed blacks weren't contained like the Native-Americans we threw onto an isolated chunk of land. We said "No" to their every push for equity in this country and when they delighted in their own accomplishments among themselves... we got paranoid and made sure what little they were establishing was burned to the ground or priced out of existence.
People like to through up that statistic about black males in prison, and conveniently forget that Lady Liberty is a HORE. If you've got the MONEY to pay for the best representation, you can get off scott free for some of the most heinous shit known to mankind. If you are poor and get one of those shitty court-appointed fucks, who don't even review your case until "the day of your trial," chances are you are going to prison... let me repeat that....chances are, you are going to prison. We also like to conveniently forget that the police force is predominantly white with inherent biases when they "pick and choose" who they will pull over or give mere warning tickets to or outright arrest for driving through a stop light.
If we have any guilt, it would be that we have benefitted from the sins of our fathers and glad that the consequences of bigotry have fallen upon us.
67 - aclu
First of all, it is not Racist to make presumptions.
Secondly, anyone who defends a moron like Bill Reilly is listened to with a huge grain of salt.
Thirdly, LA is different than the rest of the country.
Fourthly, regardless of what anyone tells you, black guys WANT to be seen as feared and menacing. It makes them COOL.
Fifthly, when did simple hooded sweatshirts become "hoodies"?
Hoodies are regular shirts with hoods, NOT hooded sweatshirts!
Sixthly, people will always be CLASSIST.
There is really nothing wrong with it.
Seventhly, why are asian immigrants so enterprising and successful? Are they smarter? Why do "blacks" with a mix of another nationality (even African) do better and are smarter?
I see another phenomenon. Instead of blacks becoming more educated, speaking better, and being more successful, everyone else is becoming dumber, unable to speak or write English, fat and lazier.
68 - Eric Olsen
I assume this is a different ACLU
69 - SFC SKI
" The thing is, I saw two rich young black guys... and assumed they were pro athletes. Is that racist? I fear it is." Did they look like pro-athletes, were they in a place near the HQ of a pro team? Seems like deductive reasoning, but you didn't bother asking them, either, why not?.
Now, let's say that you were in a hotel lobby, and a black male drove up in an expensive car, if your first thought was "I'll bet that guy is a drug dealer/pro athlete, how else could he afford that car?" That would be racist in my opinion.
Another component of being a racist, or any other "-ist" is your words and your actions. Because of who you are, you will have certain thoughts and impressions, outside influences that can spring unbidden into your mind. If you have heard the "N-word" used as a slur can have that word spring into their head despite yourself. Now, the key is whether or not you allow that word to cross your lips, allow your fingers to write or type that word, allow that word and your impression of that person to treat them as less than another human being that make you racist.
70 - Steve S
When you all meet people, do you often imagine what job they have?
71 - Lono
Yes, SFC SKY I was very near a pro-athelete facility (Broncos headquarters) and yes they did look like pro-athelets. They were decently buff and in atheletic wear.
72 - Propaganda
NONE OF THIS IS EVEN REMOTELY RACIST.
Why is it that these questions are always asked by white people and NEVER the other way around. Have you ever asked yourself that ? This does not even deserve to be mentioned as "racist". Seeing ANY young person at a store buying very expensive things you might assume things. In this case based on more than just the fact that they are black. Fortunately many of the so called "stereotypes" about blacks and other so called "minorities" (they are not really minorities I can assure you this)can ALL be backed up by FACTS. Everything from Crime to Education to Divorce rates. And there are HUGE differences in the numbers when you compare them to whites. Not little differances HUGE OVERWHELMING DIFFERANCES. For instance Blacks make up only about 13% of the population yet are responsible for over 50% of all crimes committed in the United States. What ! You say. How can that be ? BECUASE THE MEDIA NEVER REPORTS IT. 1/3 of all young black males under 25 are currently serving prison or probation time. Outright Gang rapes (where the victim does not know the attackers) are almost an exclusively all black crime. Almost 95% Approx. 85% are committed against WHITE FEMALES. This is ALL ON RECORD. Don’t listen to me. Go to the Department of Justices website ( www.usdoj.gov )or do a request under FIA. Everywhere in the world that has been traditionally white EUROPEAN has been sold out to a third world immigration invasion. Crime has skyrocketed and can be directly linked to the race of the person. Of course the Media NEVER REPORTS ANYTHING ON ANY OF THIS ANYMORE. On the contrary they PUSH and promote the opposite and convince people like you who happen to be white that they are racist for even experiencing normal feelings or using common sense. This dumbs you down to the little thigs. That way you can overlook more important things. Like your family and future. Becuase you are REALLY RACIST if you object to your son or daughter becoming "involved" (dating,sex,marraige) with a black person or other non-white. As a matter of fact you are truley a horrible person and should be ashamed. Furthurmore you need to be re-programmed and "rehabilitated". Dont worry if you dont know it yet becuase "THEY" will be the FIRST to tell you !
73 - bptr
Has anyone noticed that lesbians usually have bigger nostrils?
74 - RitchCracker
I'm sure the millions of slaughtered Jews of the Haulocost would agree that only blacks commit crimes. Oh wait, the millions of slaves that died on the mere boat ride of the "Middle Passage" to America would agree too that only blacks commit heinous crimes. No wait, the millions of slaughter Native-Americans would also like to agree and, oh just in, the thousands of Asians that died of atomic bomb attacks would like to add to that as well. Oh hold on, the millions of blacks killed during slavery and civil rights activism, who have never seen their white murderers ever arrested or brought to trial to even be noted in the statistics would like to also agree. Oh wait, an innocent whisper, I believe the young black girls who have been raped while serving as maids in white households, who have never seen their victimizers arrested to be included in those statistics would too agree. Oh yes, the victims of the charming, sociable and educated white male serial killers want to say how much they agree as well. Oh my, a news flash just in, I'm sure the thousands of devastated families who have lost their jobs, all of their savings and retirement funds to greedy and underhanded white corporate executives, who hardly ever see a day of true financial hardship punishment themselves would like to also agree that only black people commit crimes worthy of note.
75 - LOL
You idiots have been trained well.
More english tricks please!