It was just last month, right in the middle of this married men's Bible study I attend every other week that the conversation began. We were taking a look at the life of King Solomon, the man who asked for wisdom from God and was given both wisdom and incredible wealth and power.
As many know, towards the end of Solomon's life and reign, he began to turn away from God's laws. His first mistake, the Bible tells us, is marriage. Not the traditional "one man/one woman" marriage that you and I know, rather, the mass marriages that Solomon for some reason seemed to prefer.
King Solomon had 300 wives and 700 concubines! Yup, a wealth of women I guess you could say. Insanity is what I would say. I have one wife and two children, and that is more than enough.
But, off the cuff, a good friend of mine spoke up to say something along the lines of, "you know, this early on in the Bible, it really doesn't say a whole lot about the traditional marriage that we know of today." I looked at him with raised eyebrows and asked, you mean, beyond the statement that Adam and Eve were made for each other and the affirmation that, For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh?
He acknowledged those passages, but the debate continued on at length. But, really, it was a lighthearted debated among men who all agreed upon, accepted, and acknowledged the Biblical mandate of "one man/one woman" in marriage.
Unfortunately, for some, this is not a lighthearted debate at all. And I'm not just referring to the debate over "gay marriage," rather the argument that many, including myself, have made that allowing gay marriage will open the door to nearly every other type of marriage relationship. This argument, of course, has been pooh-poohed by many who support gay marriage, but it turns out that we were right and advocates for other kinds of marriage are not going to passively accept the new standard proposed by gay marriage activists.
The fact is, if gay marriage becomes normal, so will a host of other types of marriage. Still don't believe me? You will.
Stanley Kurtz, a columnist and a research fellow at the Hoover Institution wrote an in-depth and spot on article in August of 2003 called, Beyond Gay Marriage, where he said this of the growing gay-marriage debate:
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Rhodney Reck
MUSEUM OF TERRITORIAL-POLYGAMY OR MUSEUM OF POLYGAMY-TERRITORIES
=======================================
ARTICULATE THAT POLYGAMY NOWDAYS IS ALL
ABOUT THE "FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF AN
INDIVIDUAL"
Next on ACLU agenda: Polygamy
ACLU organization's mission "to defend
all fundamental rights of all ...
indicated that, among other goals, a
push for legalized polygamy may be
on ...
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.as
p?ARTICLE_ID=42501
Leader of ACLU talks on agenda
Yale Daily News - Jan 19, 2005
... right for individuals to engage in
polygamy," Strossen said ... public
aware of threats to civil rights, she
said ... and that is to defend all
fundamental rights of all ...
"The ban on plural marriage affects so
many fundamental rights," ...
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2551499
[/quote]
------------------------------------
$ 200,000,000 Museum of Territorial-
Polygamy or Museum of Polygamy-
Territories proposed for D.C and
another $150,000,000 for a regional
museum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SECOND ISSUE
Be Aware:
"Anti-Polygamist Offenders" Found
Guilty of Religious Vilification of
Polygamists
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article
.php?id=6114
2 - Tristan
So "god" gave Solomon the 300 wives & 700 concubines?
kinda like "She" (god!)--gave Job all those pussy boils and festering sores --
and lets all those millions of little children be starved and killed all over the world and sold into sexual slavery...
oops! I forgot: "god's Ways are beyond our comprehension" and it is not for us to question "god's" reasons---we are just so far "beneath" god's infinite wisdom & understanding - that we could never begin to comprehend god's "ways" .......
i love this "pie-in-the-sky" answer to every question about why "god" allows horrible things to happen in the earth ~~~~!!!!
3 - Phillip Winn
Tristian managed to use at least two words that appeared in the original story! Of course, not in anything remotely resembling the way they were used in the story, but it's still progress, eh?
4 - Tristan
Philip!
i didn't see that "rule" you were referring to about how a specific percentage of each post must include direct referral to the original article; where did you say that WAS ...???
and not to mention spelling or anything to Mr. "Perfect" there ---but it's TRISTAN, not tristian ....
Got it phiilip ?????????
(man ---some people have nothing better to do than sit at their pc and pick apart every little comment on here I see~~maybe theyneed to go out and obtain bona-fide employment instead of living on welfarem disabilitym and food stamps~~!!!)
don't you agree .......???? :<)
5 - Dawn
Phillip, do you think Tristan is drunk, or "touched?"
6 - JR
We don't have to lift a finger. Instead, we'll allow liberals to select their ideology for exctinction and we can just sit back and wait to inherit society.
Something bothers me about that argument... Oh! I know. If the liberals have been selecting themselves for extinction, how did they ever manage to get a majority?
7 - Lisa McKay
Well, the other thing about David's argument is that it assumes that children will grow up to follow in their parents' political footsteps, which isn't necessarily going to happen.
8 - Tristan
Dawn:
Is it possible for you to actually make an intelligent comment about a subject you're posting UNDER ---or do you just use them to stir up fights as you've been doing here all day?
Is this really what "blogging" is all about ..? People just picking fights the instant they see a comment or post they don't like--then they start some kind of on-going verbal "battle" with that author..?? That's "blogging" ???
any response to that Dawn >> "constructive response" ---or would you just prefer to argue back and forth ???
9 - Temple Stark
We don't all live under the Christian God's rules and laws of the land are not created based on it. Your entire otherwise well-posed argument ends there.
10 - Dave Nalle
Wow, putting aside Tristan's little vendetta for a moment, that Peck guy in the first comment is a real loon. Both insane and incoherent at the same time. Plus a big fan of ALL CAPS.
On the otherhand, I agree that it's about time polygamy was legalized. No reason not to allow it in a mature and free society.
>>And once everyone's relationship is recognized, marriage is gone, and only a system of flexible relationship contracts is left.<<
And this is a bad thing, why? Our society is built on contracts. Handling marriage more like a contract can only lead to benefits for society.
As an overall assessment of this article, I have to say that just repeating that something is 'bad for society' with no actual data to back that up beyond one interpretation of the Bible, isn't going to get you very far.
Dave
11 - Tristan
Christians aren't Judgemental ......
Nooooooooo not in the LEAST!
funny how most of the world's various religions seemingly got along pretty well with each other for thousands and thousands of years until about 2,000 years ago when this upstart new "religion" (actually: a cult of the DEAD!) sprung up worshipping this dead man on a cross~~~and suddenly the earth had all these men in long black robes travellin to all the various corners of the globe telling people that they had to believe in this "religion" or they were "WRONG" and "going to hell" (and in many cases---if they wouldn't convert--put to DEATH! now THAT's a good way to win your argument, eh!)
12 - David Flanagan
JR & Lisa,
Good comments and questions. First of all, studies do show that, for the most part, children grow up to refelct their parent's values. It is not true in every case, however, it is generally the case.
Secondly, liberals were the majority for a very long time because they were strong on traditional family, strong on national defense, strong on a lot of things that they just don't seem to be strong on any more. President Clinton was a moderate to left President, while he consistently supported the pro-choice position, he also consistently supported pro-family positions.
He supported and signed the Protection of Marriage Act and urged Senator Kerry to back those states which were attempting to amend their constitutions to define marriage as one man and one woman. He understood, at the very least, what most Americans wanted.
Since Clinton left office, I see very little moderation from Democrats. Just the party of NO, though, I don't want to label all Democratic leaders that way, just the ones who seem to make all the decisions for their party.
And that is why mainstream Democrats out there in middle America have been voting Republican, because Republicans have taken on the values that Democratic leaders once defended.
Thanks,
David
13 - swingingpuss
Tristan, history is peppered with religious clashes that took place before Christianity came into being .For example there had been intense enmity between Vaishnavites and the Shavites in India during the ancient period.
Buddha had been persecuted by the brahmins and buddhist monks had to voluntarily jump into fire when they lost religious debates to the brahmins by the end of the ancient period.
In Japan those who did not accept Amida buddha and followed the lotus sutra were persecuted during the mediaeval period and even during the First world war those who did not accept the sun goddess talisam were put into jail.
And show me one other religion that does not say that it is the 'only' true path towards salvation?
14 - Tristan
Nalle's VENDETTA~!
Oh puleeaaasssseeeeeeeeeeee
Nalle is one to talk about "personal vendettas"! HA!
as he proceeds in the very next sentence to start ANOTHER one with that poster!
Amazing anybody stays here and posts ANYTHING when there seem to be a small group of malcontents (nalle-dawn-"dr" pat---)---who seem to derive unusually intense pleasure from bashing any other posters in here?
Seems to be a mechanism in place here that is very inhibiting to letting new people in here get acclimated and adjust--to the point where they get to know the blog anf get a feel for the dynamics....
kind of the same mechanism as when a father beats his child physically over and over thus stunting the child's emotional growth resulting in the child being almost vegetative and catatonic emotionally as they grow up.......
15 - Dave Nalle
We mostly just enjoy bashing you, Tristan. Maybe if you responded to the topic instead of only responding to comments and how they relate to you personally you'd draw less fire.
Dave
16 - Tristan
Nalle is the one to PREACH, eh?
and I see he responds constantly to the topic and never has personal vendettas...
as evidenced by that comment!
How funny! Hmmmmmm....
17 - Bennett Dawson
Grow up you three. There is value in this topic, it was well presented, and the author doesn't deserve the disrespect of you three having a brawl in the middle of this blog.
Regarding the concept of "breeding for control of society", it could be a valid one. However, I have to point out that there ore many types of group marriages, several of them are outlined in Heinlein's The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. These long term "Line Marriages" offer greater stability for the raising of children, and for the accumulation of a family's financial equity.
All that needs to be overcome, or to avoid I should say, is our jealous nature.
18 - Bennett Dawson
Ahhh, as I was saying (taxes and accountant inturupted) A line marriage is one where new (younger)members are brought into the marriage every ten years or so in a gender ballanced ratio. None of the family's assets are ever liquidated due to the death of the senior husband or wife. The older members have built-in old age and hospice care, and the children never suffer the devastaing consequences of losing all when one of the birth parents die. Equity is reinforced by the greater earning power of multiple working parents, and grows more able to withstand any number of situations that would cripple a two parent family.
There are always adults around to provide for the education and disipline of children.
My wife says that it would never work, but she is an insecure person, and jealosy springs from insecurity. We as a society may not be ready for this type of marriage, but one cannot deny that there are benefits to a strength in numbers approach to living in a family group.
Comments?
19 - swingingpuss
Bennet, a joint family system also takes care of the old, the young and the unemployed members of the family. And as a woman I'd prefer to share my husband and his income with his mother and siblings rather than him having a harem full of 'wives'.
20 - Bennett Dawson
as a woman I'd prefer to share my husband and his income with his mother and siblings rather than him having a harem full of 'wives'.
Yeah, that's what my lovely wife says. But again, she's pretty insecure, despite my strict and undying fidelity.
21 - swingingpuss
All the more reason why polygamy wont work. We women dont like to share our husbands. You'd have a house full of catty women and nagging mother in laws. Think about peace of mind instead of the libido or the pocket :-)
22 - gonzo marx
heh..swingingpuss..i woud really like you to go and read "the Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
the Line marriages mentioned are RUN by the women..the society of the story is based on the Moon being a penal colony, a harsh scarcity of women in the colony forced thier society to examine and adapt..this lead to customes where ANY harm done to any woman had the very real peril of a bunch of strangers shoving the Offender out of the closest airlock
personally..i enjoy that Thought
as for the shape and Form of any "marriage"..i would put to you that it is ONLY the business of those involved..so the aforementioned "relationship contracts" are EXACTLY what is required based on the Principles put forward in the Constitution of the United States
those people of "Faith" are more than welcome to form their "marriages" how they see fit, but EVERY citzen of this country is covered by the "equal protection" principle of the U.S. Laws..thier form of "marriage" is just as legal when placed under that Context
not all forms work for all folks...but the baseline Postulate for ANY marriage...as far as i can determine..is care for those involved and any children produced by said union
all else is window dressing and cultural Tradition
over the course of human History just about EVERY form of "marriage" has been practiced successfully and has been accepted as "normal" and "traditional"
i put it to you, that since one of the founding principles of our Nation was that there should be no Tyranny of the Majority, and that pursuit of religious and cultural freedom was paramount, that it flies in the face of our stated goals as a Nation to deny ANYONE their right to "the pursuit of happiness" as they see fit as long as it does no demonstable harm to anyone else..
now if someone could show me how it harms me to have Jack and Bob, or Jane and Jill to enjoy the fruits of "marriage" (or even all four if they so choose)..then maybe i can take this argument a bit more seriously...
think about it...put aside any knee jerk response...this IS a subject we, as a society, should be talking about..
Excelsior!
23 - Bennett Dawson
Great job Gonzo!!! And I should have mentioned in my last post that a "harem of wives" is polygamy, a line marriage would be polyamory. Also what I set out was a gender ballanced situation, equal numers of husbands and wives.
24 - swingingpuss
Gonzo, thanks for recommending the book. I have just yanked it from my significant other's bookshelf and I'm about to sink my teeth into it.
25 - gonzo marx
excellent swingingpuss...it IS one of my fav's...and ya will learn a lot about the principles of american democracy...at least how it was viewed by the Founders..
Professor Bernardo de la Paz fer President!!
Excelsior!