Moments of courage rewarded with a one-way ticket out of the Army.
So we just skirt the hallway sides
A phantom and a fly
Follow the lines and wonder why
There's no connection/And week of rolling eyes
And cheap shots from the trite. — The Shins, "Phantom Limbs"…
Article comments
26 - Tim
And why exactly do you think that it should not have been made in the first place? Nobody's forcing homosexuals to be in the military, if you want to join an organization, you must abide by their rules. They're not being forced to live a lie. They're doing so volunatrily.
27 - Silas Kain
OK, so you're logic is no fags in the military, right? And your logic also says that all organizations should be allowed to have discriminatory rules. Right? So, by your logic I could have an organization which would not allow the employment of White Fundamentalist Christians. Right?
We're all living a lie, Tim. Every citizen of this country. Sometimes it's voluntary. Sometimes it's a matter of survival. The world is black and white. And within that white lives a spectrum of colors which liberate from your darkness.
28 - Benjamin
Hey Tim,
I guess I don't really understand your logic. Repelling DADT doesn't mean you have to accept homosexuals only their right to serve in the military. Yes, I fundamentally disagree with you on some of your points but you've not really offered any reasons to back them up other than you don't accept homosexuality. I for one believe that homosexuality is genetically determined and can't see holding anything against a person due to the accident of birth. So, why do you think DADT shouldn't be repelled?
29 - Tim
That's exactly right. What's the point of having rules if you're forced to reapeal them based on arbitrary definitions of discrimination? There is none.
And Ben, repealing DADT does mean that we have to accept homosexuals. I don't believe that homosexuality is determined by gentitcs, rather, it's determined by the will of the person. Repealing DADT means that I'm forced to accept them becuse I have to work with them. White supremacists allowed in the military. If they were allowed to be in the military, people who don't like it would be foced to accept them. In reality, people who are in favor of the repeal of DADT really are preaching tolerance. Yet you don't tolerate my intolerance for homosexuals.
30 - Silas Kain
I don't believe that homosexuality is determined by gentitcs, rather, it's determined by the will of the person...
OK, Tim, I'll bite. So you think homosexuality is a condition and not genetic. Right? Well if that is your logic it would stand to reason that Maggie Gallagher would turn straight men gay and Rush Limbaugh could make a lesbian out of Michelle Bachmann. Shit. You may be right after all.
P.S. The spelling police around here can measure a person's true intellect. Grab a dikshunerry.
31 - Benjamin
Tim -- I'm not sure where I've not tolerated you're intolerance. Hell, if anything I'm trying to engage you.
I'm not asking you to accept homosexuality, only to allow them to serve in the military. As I stated in the article, I don't want to know anyone's sexual preferences, I hate the straight guy telling me of his weekend conquests just as much as I hate the gay man who details his weekend at the club and subsequent conquests.
But who you have sex with should not be a condition of military service -- it has absolutely no bearing on your ability to fire a weapon, decipher a message or any of the tasks the military asks their people to do.
I have no idea how many gay people you've been around or how many you know who've served but I know that the one's I've known, who've come out about their sexual preferences tend to become the type of service members we want -- motivated, hard-charging and all that. I couldn't tell you why. I can only assume that living with that secret, hiding your true self in order to serve must weight on a persons psyche and once it's lifted, they're allowed to fully become the service member they are.
32 - Tim
@ Silas: [personal attack deleted by comments editor] I spell one word incorrectly, and you have to use that to shift the focus from you to me.
@ Ben: If you're so adament about not caring, why are you making a big deal about it? You are forcing people to accept homosexuals if you're allowing them into the military. I'm not a racist at all, nor do I advocate racism, and I don't disagree with the decision, but the courts have forced whites to accept blacks in schools by forcing integration.
33 - Dr Dreadful
Tim, you've hinted at but not actually offered much in the way of argument as to why you don't want gays in the military, other than that you just don't like the idea.
I don't much like the idea of some of the clients I've got to interview tomorrow either, but that's no reason not to go to work.
We've heard some of the top military brass speaking out against the repeal of DADT citing various vague reasons, principally the one about it being bad for morale. Precisely why it should be bad for morale never seems to be explained.
If I'm not much mistaken, there were similar objections when the proposal to end racial segregation in the military first hit the floor.
But it turned out then - and, if Ben's straw poll in the article is anything to go by, it's much the same now - that the prevailing mood in the military was (and probably is) that it doesn't matter what colour your buddy's skin is or who he or she sleeps with - as long as you can rely on him or her to have your back in a firefight.
34 - Silas Kain
I'm not a racist at all, nor do I advocate racism, and I don't disagree with the decision, but the courts have forced whites to accept blacks in schools by forcing integration.
When they start with "I'm not a racist...but..." that cinches it for me. This exchange isn't worth my valuable time.
In the meantime any American who is willing to sacrifice his/her life on my behalf in the military has my full, unbridled support and gratitude -- regardless of his/her personal beliefs.
35 - Cannonshop
#33, #34-have the right of it. But repeal of DADT doesn't begin to address the real problem-that being the UCMJ's "military Laws" regarding all sorts of private behaviours, with attendant penalties.
For instance, you can get a prison term in the army, if you're caught committing Adultery, or getting a blow-job from your Girlfriend (or performing cunnilingus, anal, or any position other than missionary.)
I shit you not on this. All these regulations within UCMJ are put there by one body-Congress.
Unless the repeal also removes THOSE regs, people with Tim's attitude can nail-with-the-reg-and-out-of-the-service gay soldiers who simply admit to being sexually active-because in order to do so, you're automatically violating several military laws...which carry prison time and the big chicken dinner. (The policy DADT had a lot to do with a ham-handed attempt to PROTECT gay soldiers, because that's how the army got rid of them before the policy was put in place by executive order.)
If the repeal does not address this, gay soldiers will still be targeted with administrative separations and/or formal charges, depending on the domestic political climate.
36 - Silas Kain
Very, very interesting points. So basically what you're saying is that the entire UCMJ needs serious reconsideration. And, what I find most interesting is the injection of Fundamental Right Wing Christian ethics in the code. It may have been appropriate in days past but these are changing times.
37 - Irene Wagner
I don't want to be associated with mean-spirited campaigns to keep gays from living lives just like anybody else.
It may bug some that I am a very conservative Bible-believing Christian, but I'm an American who believes in a fair shake for everybody, too, and the two don't have to be incompatible.
I don't want to get in a discussion with anyone on this thread about it. You can cut me down if you want, but please don't feel miffed if I don't answer. I just felt like I needed to say something.
38 - roger nowosielski
"For instance, you can get a prison term in the army, if you're caught committing Adultery, or getting a blow-job from your Girlfriend (or performing cunnilingus, anal, or any position other than missionary.)"
Which makes you wonder. You've got to be really desperate to join the Armed Forces.
39 - Benjamin
Well Roger, I've been in the military nearly 15 years and I certainly don't feel desperate for doing so.
40 - roger nowosielski
No Spartan would, Benjamin.