The thought that such a richly contemplative life can simply end in an instant doesn't sit well with me.
I was reading an article in USAToday about six bodies found in a home in Pennsylvania. One body had a visible head wound, blood and bone fragments were found throughout the house, some of the bodies were wrapped in sheets, and one wrapped in a blanket secured with a phone cord.…
Article comments
126 - Steve
Well, Andy, I have yet to hear any professor that's been on Canadian TV agree with you on the Gnostic Gospels. And all of these professors have been on secular shows and many are NOT Christians, so it's not like they are defending their own religious beliefs.
Of course, there are many churches out there, where what you give financially to a church can be optional, so I think your aversion to alms is just an excuse, Andy.
There is such a thing as house churches too even today, indeed, that is how the Christian faith survived persecution in the first few centuries.
I think you need to realise that Christianity is bigger than some of your stereotypes of it.
I'm curious that you feel that the techniques police use to discover what happened (i.e interviewing eye witnesses) is just a telephone game. Makes you wonder why they bother, eh??
I've heard plenty to suggest that all four Gospels were written in the first century, within the lifetimes of those who witnessed the events. Don't know where you get 90 years from. Even so, that didn't stop those who were looking for the Titanic in the 1980's from interviewing folks who were on the ship at the time to help figure out how it sank back in 1912, did it?? Their information helped determine how it sank, so they could narrow the search for where to look for it.
I'm really not sure how you can read the NT and the Gnostic Gospels and say they are part of the same story, and yet read the NT Gospels on their own and say they tell different stories. Now that really is a contradiction in terms!!
It really does seem like feelings rather than logic is driving your antagonism towards Biblical Christianity. I would be curious to know what incidents in your life caused you to be the way you are.
127 - gonzo marx
Steve sez...
*The differences you mentioned between the Gospels hardly imply contradiction, gonzo. It's quite feasible that both versions can be quite correct. When interviewing people, police expect some folks to pick up on things others don't notice. Just gives a broader picture of the events.*
and thus you perfectly disprove the concept of "divinely inspired" text..and show that these are the writings of flawed men, at the very least
however, time for lil ole me ot leave this topic be..one cannot enlighten a Believer to anything other than their pre-concieved notions
my ONLY point in all this is that there is Value in texts other than those approved by dogma, and that Literalist claims are absurd by the very nature of what they claim Literal belief in
your mileage may vary
Excelsior?
128 - Nancy
How did we get from Life After Death to the Gnostic Gospels? I read the entire thread & I still missed that one. LAD to Gnostics to Occam...conversations here sure get comprehensive, don't they?
129 - Andy Marsh
Well Steve - I've read the Gnostic Gospels and the Gospel of Judas. I didn't get my info from TV, I got some of it from Elaine Pagels and other writers of the books I've read on the subject.
I'm curious, Have you read any of the Gnostic Gospels? And if you have, did you read with an open mind, or did you read them like my mother did...with a bit of a closed mind?
I guess being raised a catholic and attending catholic school for 11 years and being taught that RCC christianity is the only real version of the religion and being taught that the rest of the world is going to hell may have jaded me just a bit....maybe it was that priest that said he wanted $50 a week from every working person in the family when I was making $75 a week bothered me a bit...I was told when I was younger that if I attended services in a church other than an RC church I was commiting a sin! WTF is up with that?
maybe reading The Gospel According to Thomas and the Gospel of Judas and the Sophia of Christ have opened my eyes...
Then again...maybe I'm wrong on all of it...maybe the Gnostic Gospels are nothing better than a Bazooka Bubble gum wrapper...then again...maybe it's the other gospels that are wrong...
130 - Steve
Re. #129, thanks for that, Andy, that explains alot.
Out of all the folks I've talked to that are the most disillusioned or disappointed with Christianity, it seems the vast majority I meet grew up in the Roman Catholic Church. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most secular province in Canada these days is the province where the RCC was the strongest until 30-40 years ago (Quebec). You have my sympathies.
Having not had any exposure to the RCC myself, except maybe a wedding and a funeral, I can't say much from personal experience, but from the ex-Catholics I've talked to, I don't know how anyone can argue the 'Papal way' is better than the 'NT way'. The RCC seems designed to create spiritual spectators (at least, if you aren't going to get into the clergy). I just don't see how that could be a healthy structure for a congregation.
Churches should be trying to facilitate lay ministries, get people DOING ministry, rather than watching the priest do it all.
I guess that's why I could never be a Catholic, too many of the Papal decrees on how things should be done just screw everything up.
And No One should be telling you what to give to your church. Giving is a heart issue, doing it out of duty rather than personal conviction is not what it's supposed to be about. God sees right through that, so it is a redundant approach. Even though there were some people in my church who felt one should give a tithe (1/10th of your income), I never did, and no one ever gave me hassle over it. It's a matter between you and God, no one else.
Re. the Gnostic Gospels, I did read a few back in the nineties, the dualism between the material and the immaterial that they had seemed totally unlike either the NT, or the OT for that matter. I couldn't (and still can't) see how both kinds of gospels could be accurate reflections of reality. They have irreconciliable doctrines as far as the nature of the universe (material=evil vs. material=good), who created the universe (an 'inferior being' vs. God) and who Jesus was (i.e. mythic vs. historical person).
131 - Steve
gonzo, if you don't take your own Gnostic beliefs literally either (as you seem to be implying that I shouldn't mine) then what meaning do they have, pray tell??? You may as well make it up as you go along. But then, if God can't communicate thru people, how can you know what you are making up is true at all?? If you can't, why bother??
The Christian position on 'inspiration' holds that it is the Scriptures, not the writers who were inspired. The Biblical documents themselves bear the mark of each writer's personality and linguistic habits.
I would never hold that there is NO VALUE in other texts, necessarily. But any historian worth his salt, will expect the oldest documents to be more reliable than more recent ones.
132 - gonzo marx
Steve...i'll try once again here to show you a bit of what i am trying to say
firstmistake on your part...NOWHERE do i state ANYTHING that i "believe"
never
ever
i clearly use the words think/thoughts to describe my positions
secondly, your choices on dating some materials under discussion and mine differ...there is also the point of history
some texts leapt, untouched over a vast period of time, while others have been re-copied, edited and "interperted" many times
if you look at some of the older greek texts of the NT and compare themn to , let's say the KJ version you will note some glaring errors
"suffer ye not a witch to live" in KJ
as compared to the greek...
"allow not a poisoner to continue"
big fucking difference...
that ONE mis-translation alone has killed how many people over the centuries?
it is my Thought that ANY who claim to have "heard" the word of or know the Mind of "god" are either delusional or charlatans
nuff said
Excelsior?
133 - Nancy
My only experience with ANY organized religion is that their only real interest is in your checkbook. My neighbors recently reported to me that their church actually issued all members automatic payment deduction authorizations (with everything except the amount & the members' account numbers filled in), & announced that everyone should sign it & turn it in so the tithes can be automatically paid in to the church. Those who cavilled at this were visited/called by a deacon, who politely but firmly queried as to WHY they hadn't returned the authorization, and he'd take it for them right now, thank you. Apparently the pressure was never nasty, but it was very inexorable. I was outraged. I'd quit that damned church before I'd ever give them a nickel, but my neighbors are not as hard as I am & they have too many ties to others in that church. I consider this kind of crap outright blackmail & extortion. It's a main-stream Christian (so called) denomination, BTW. This is not the first time recently I've heard of this new trend, either. It seems to be gaining ground, especially in some of the more financially agressive churches.
134 - Sister Ray
Nancy, th at particular church sounds bad, and I don't doubt you, but in fairness I must say that not all religious orgs are money-hungry. I'm as agnostic as you can get, but when I did go to church I found honest people who practiced what they preached. There are altruistic Christians out there (and probably people of other religions too; I just don't have first-hand experience). My lack of religion is based on philosophy and reason, not the practices of individuals.
135 - Nancy
I wish mine were based that logically. No, my bad feelings are all repugnance based on actual observances/experience. I've encountered damn few Christians who actually practiced it, and those in their church heirarchies (priests, pastors, deacons, etc.) were the worst. Actually, the person I've encountered who practiced the most Christian virtues is Jewish. And no, the initials aren't JC.
136 - Steve
gonzo, 'suffer not a witch to live' is from Ex. 22:18, which is in the Hebrew originally, not the Greek, plenty others have the same translation from the Hebrew as the KJV, so I doubt it's a mistranslation. Not sure which Greek you are referring to (the Greek version of the OT, the Septuagint, maybe???), but it certainly isn't a quote from the NT.
Of course, if people listening did not know the context of that verse, they may have misapplied it. I notice these tragedies only happen when Biblical illiteracy is at it's highest i.e. the Middle Ages. I guess that's a good argument for people not to be ignorant of the Bible's contents, that way, they can't be misled by those who quote out of context, right???
Re. people in general, as a Christian, I view everybody as a sinner, so when someone does something they shouldn't, it never surprises me. I expect that. Fortunately, when dealing with other Christians, I can always refer them to the Bible to get them to think whether what they did was actually a good idea. Not much one can do with non-believing folks, alas, except pray for them.
gonzo, 95% of the OT is intact, as is 99% of the NT. The few passages in doubt do not affect any Christian doctrines commonly held by us today. You're making a mountain out of a molehill, my friend.
I don't know anyone who has been to a church like the one you experienced Nancy, sorry to hear that. The OT tithe had nothing to do with money, again, if folks knew the origins of these things in the OT, they might not be so dogmatic about them about applying them today. It's not enough to quote a verse, important to know what was going on at the time when things were said.
137 - chantal stone
"It's not enough to quote a verse, important to know what was going on at the time when things were said.
Well put, Steve....the problem is, too many churches and Christians do exactly that.....they quote a scripture, take it in its literal sense, without considering the context or the time in which it was written.
Faith is needed when reading the Bible, and applying biblical principles to everyday life, but blind faith can be very dangerous. Many Christians rely simply on blind faith, with no regard to intellectual Thought.
Thanks for the comments, Steve, and everyone...always thought provoking and appreciated.
138 - gonzo marx
Steve sez...
*I guess that's a good argument for people not to be ignorant of the Bible's contents, that way, they can't be misled by those who quote out of context, right???*
tell that to the folks in Salem....slaves, or gays
tell that to any of the victims of "the 5 Heresies"
tell that to Jaques DeMolay, and know why we have triskaidekaphobia.
enough from me...be well Steve
Excelsior?
139 - Steve
gonzo, good and true things are open to abuse as is anything else. And that's because people are sinners, gonzo. Just like the Bible says. The more you point out the sins of the past, the more you remind me about how right the Bible is about peoples' sinfulness. Any worldview that ignores that fact is in big trouble.
In reference to that fiendishly difficult to spell word you mentioned, gonzo, I've never had a fear of the number 13, or Friday the 13th, nor is that fear taught in scripture. In fact, I would argue that comes from reading the Bible in a non-literal fashion, i.e. looking for meanings and symbols that were not intended by the original author. It's when you focus too much on the symbolic, that superstition gains a strength all it's own, because it becomes completely divorced from actual events, and devolves into meaningless speculations.
yw, Chantal.
140 - gonzo marx
no Steve, it comes from a friday the 13th, when Jaques DeMolay and many other Templars were rounded up, tortured and executed for heresy by the King of France (who wanted their lands and money) in collusion with the "infallible" Pope...
a small example of the Actuality of history, and the Knowledge of it, rather than the doctrine (or dogma) painted by the Victors afterwards...
try the Cathars for another prime example
i know your Beliefs are set, and i have no desire to try and convince nor Enlighten you...
but perhaps other gentle Readers may ask themselves a Question or two...and begin to think fo rthemselves rather than accept Authoritarian strictures laid upon them
as for "sinners"...here is a baseline disAgreement between us...i do not think there is any such thing as "original sin"...i do not think ANY can "atone" for another...just for themselves..and i do not think any Agency of Man (churches)has anything to do with it...other than to extract money from their flock to try and buy "forgiveness"
each Person makes their own Choices and is inherently Responsible for them...no one else
and it is always a Choice
you appear to promote the literal and remain blinded to the Symbolic...
might i point out that the first and greatest Tools of Man are Symbols...from words, to writing, to speech, to music to Art....to Parable
all are Symbols
Excelsior?
141 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Gonzo, Steve,
gonzo, 'suffer not a witch to live' is from Ex. 22:18, which is in the Hebrew originally, not the Greek,
Without arguing any other points here, the Hebrew verse - which is authoritative - is as follows:
makhshefá lo t'Hayé: do not permit a witch to live.
142 - nugget
to #29 "Where do you get the idea that people are under the influence of some evil inclination?"
and to #31,
There is a misconception on good vs. evil in Jewish doctrine and Christianity.
C.S. Lewis explained it this way: All men WANT good. We want good. I want world peace. I want kids to be happy. I want a cheeseburger. I want sex. You might want these things. Therefore...
pleasure = good.
pleasure IS good. I believe God wants us to have pleasure!!
BUT, evil is choice to do what is wrong in order to obtain good! There is no evil in the way that conspiracy theorists view evil. Ya know, ugly man rubbing hands together with a cackling laugh secretly planning the world's demise. the ability to do "evil" is in all of us. We all have PRIDE. that is, sometimes we are tired and fed up. That same night we get drunk and get in a fight. The release of aggression and rush is a GOOD thing. But our way of getting it is WRONG. Evil is the wrong way to obtain goodness! That's my take.
Hitler. I know I know. Hitler. Hitler wanted a great Nation! In all of his zeal he wanted to triumph! He felt humiliated and betrayed. He wanted good for "his" people. The manifestation of his ostensibly innocuos wants yielded a mass slaughter of a particular race of man. OOPS. Ok hitler = evil? well, depends on your version of "evil." I'd like to see proponents of moral relativism explain Adolf and his intense will to dominate much of Europe. I say Adolf was a weak, weak, weak man. He could not handle the offenses that marked his childhood. (gosh I sound sooo Dr. Phil right now) So he funnels his aggression, a need of belonging, and excitement for competition by creating a war and eliminating his enemies.
Mr. Child molester rapes a child. CM only wanted sexual pleasure from something quite innocent. CM might have been inundated with a sexual euphoria during this moment. Who knows why! But he might have. Sexual euphoria??? Bad thing? No. Manifested by raping and killing a child makes it a BAD THING.
Thusly, evil does not = opposite good. Evil = wrong direction to good.
ok i hope someone gets my point.
this is a great thread btw.
to John Spivey #44: " I have struggled to understand how faith makes us spiritual. It has seemed to me to be the lazy person's way out of coming to grips with life and meaning, an absolution of the difficulties of the path. Faith has never saved me, never healed the pain of my life, never provided balm for watching the cruelties of the world. When I observe what life really is and throw off my judgments and blinders, I fall into a mystery and awe that takes me deeper into being here, deeper into being human. At that moment I understand things that I can't explain. Paradoxically I feel that I come closer to something called god by becoming more deeply human. When I again fear life I suddenly lose it all."
143 - nugget
woops. I tagged on that quote accidently.
anyways, about that (john). Why do you represent "faith" as the antithesis of throwing off judgements and blinders?
Why can't your faith live comfortably with your yearning to understand?
Why can't gnosis reinforce faith?
I agree with you to an extent. But, I don't understand why you view your situation as a paradox.
144 - nugget
gonzo: I think you and I agree that one man's interpretation is as good as the next. But how do you choose your sources? If not the Bible, then what? How do you distinguish one source over another? Because it feeds your prejudices? Probably. Hey me too. If a PHD in history writes a column about the Roman Empire, I'll probably believe him because he's done more research.
But what is research? Research is just as anecdotal as ANYTHING else. Let's say Joe shmo college professor writes a column and lists his sources who were "Joe shmo from 30 years ago, joe shmo from 65 years ago, and jo shmo from 116 years ago....also, these three joe shmos got their info from about 50 combined JOE SHMOS!" Sounds like the telephone game to me! the same principle applies to the bible! I know that.
My real question is, gonzo, Why the hell do you have so much FAITH is GNOSIS? Because everyone knows what happens in the Telephone game! A hairy dog becomes a scary hog, a snarley fog, a cheery log! One economics theorist misinterprets another! A German scientist thinks he's doing the world a favor by splitting an atom. He gets a nice paycheck! Go gnosis! Then the manhattan project. Then a bunch of dead japs! Go gnosis! I'm not saying science bad or any of that hogwash. Science is perty cool! I like my ipod. I like advil. I like the fact that it shuts up religious zealots that say that black people can't read and that the world is flat. I like all that. But does actual, bonafied DOCTRINE negate SCIENCE or GNOSIS??? NO. People fuck up science. People fuck up God. And people fuck up themselves. We're all guilty of fucking something up. So you can mope about how organized religion does this and that and I'll sit back and agree with you. But not based on the fact that God does it. People do it. People of faith? sure. People without faith? sure. Scientists? yea. geez, just everybody!
to be frank, this gnosis crap is just a faith-based as ANYthing else. You trust your car is going to start up in the morning? WHY? Is it because you know exactly how it works?? Can you map out all the mechanical and electrical parts in your mind while you turn the key, fully expecting it to start up and take you to work? No. Humans operate on faith and paranoia!
145 - Steve
Thank you, Ruvy and nugget for your latest comments.
That's wonderful, gonzo. Ummm, did I say I was a Catholic?... did I say I believed in papal authority?... I don't recall saying that at all. There was Christian faith outside the Roman Catholic Church, you know, from the beginning. You should try finding a book called "The Pilgrim Church" by E.H. Broadbent (1931, I have a 1985 reprint), it gives you a much broader perspective of the history of the Christian faith than the history of the Roman Catholic Church ever could. Your historical qualms appear to be more with the RCC, than with the rest of us Christians.
You know, gonzo, I've been taking your comments quite literally but I'm beginning to wonder if I should bother. I'm obviously missing the hidden symbolic meanings in your comments.
146 - gonzo marx
to nugget...gnoses is greek for knowledge...no more and no less
i have NEVER stated i put any "faith" in anything, have i?
both Steve and Ruvy...i know where the quote comes from..i don't read Hebrew...so my own poor memory made a bad example, mea culpa
and finally...for Steve....have a good life, seriously...no need for you to be slightly concerned about my viewpoint
you have indeed succeeded in tilting me permantently into the futility column...my own fault really
bye folks
147 - Steve
Bye gonzo, nice chatting.
148 - nugget
gnosis > dogma?
how about gnosis + dogma > dogma or gnosis by itself.
149 - nugget
And, everyone has faith. There are those of us who own up to it and those who don't.
150 - chantal stone
nugget....thanks for your comments on this thread, very well thought out....and I appreciate your perspective.
Happy Sunday, everyone :)
151 - Steve
Re. #149, good point, nugget.
Thanks, Chantal, you too.
152 - nugget
Thanks chantal. Excellent thread. this topic makes me particularly emotional. I have thought/read about religion a great deal and hope to add to the insight that others have already offered.
153 - chantal stone
you're welcome, nugget...and let me recommend John Spivey's book, The Great Western Divide. It's an amazing journey through the landscape of the mind, and a fresh perspective just on who we are and how we relate to this place where we are.