The thought that such a richly contemplative life can simply end in an instant doesn't sit well with me.
I was reading an article in USAToday about six bodies found in a home in Pennsylvania. One body had a visible head wound, blood and bone fragments were found throughout the house, some of the bodies were wrapped in sheets, and one wrapped in a blanket secured with a phone cord.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - troll
#22 comes dangerously close to perfection...I must divert my eyes
troll
27 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I don't weant to bore you all with Jewish debates about the afterlife and such. Essentially, we can worry about when we get there. But let me give you an idea of the world after messianic redemption, the way we see it. That is not something you often read.
In essence, the evil inclination - the yétzer har'á - will be destroyed. That will be the big change. Thus, you will still want to screw - but you will not necessarily feel the need to "screw over". The desire to exploit and hurt will be gone, and the basic concepts that Gonzo lays out in comment #22 will be simple common sense - and we will all wonder why it was so hard to do before.
Thus the world will experience peace and prosperity, for there will be no wars and no energy wasted on wars. People will be concentrating on improviong the world around them, making it into an earthly paradise (see Chris' comment #2).
There will be plenty of work, cleaning up the environmental mess we have made, the waste dumps, etc., bringing harmony into how creatures live so that humans and animals will survive and thrive.
There will be plenty of work, seeing to it that all hve what to eat, where to live, what to wear, etc., etc.
But there will also be love and happiness and joy in waking up each day. And man will truly be a partner of G-d in his creation on this planet.
28 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy: observing the process of finding that somehow the world helps you in times of need is not an uncommon insight and it is something that happens to people all over the world regardless of their faithist status.
I grant you that is something wonderful, miraculous even, but it still does NOT necessarily point to the existence of gods. It could just as easily and somewhat more plausibly say something about the human race...
29 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy: on your #27, I can't get where you're coming from on this. Where do you get the idea that people are under the influence of some evil inclination?
I don't want to screw over anybody, although I am rather keen on actually screwing! Most people I know don't have a "desire to explot and hurt" either.
I look forward to you personally implementing this new era of love and positivity towards all your fellow members of the one thing that really matters, humankind, and abandoning some of the hate you have been embracing recently.
We can all leave the dark side, Ruvy; it's a matter of personal choice and responsibility, recognising that it's what you do now that matters, not leaving things to a future you'll never know in the name of god.
30 - John Spivey
Chantal-
Even from a scientific view, it's really all a dance of Energy, a quantum now you see me now you don't. The way I lead my life is that I'm here to learn to focus my awareness and Energy and the next step will be revealed in the course of that. I do know that ongoing awareness of my moment to moment relationship with life is key. If I purposefully harm another I create a gap in my consciousness that takes too long to repair. The nice thing is that even if I'm wrong, the world is no worse for my having been here, hopefully better.
John
31 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chris,
Evil inclination - good inclination. This is basic Jewish philosophy. All of us are under the influence of both, and our behavior generally reflects both. From Genesis:
"Evil inclines its head at your door, but you can conquer it."
32 - Josh
Personally, I kind of go for the Edgar Casey version of Christianity. We're all here to learn what lessons we need to learn, then we go back to being a part of God.
For atheists: To exist is itself irrational -- makes the leap to believe in God easier. If this doesn't make sense, think about it. If it still doesn't make sense, it's probably the wine I had at Easter dinner tonight.
33 - chantal stone
re.#22...gonzo... "the same basic Message with such variable Voices..."
I think it's because there's just a basic Message for humanity, period. And perhaps it just doesn't matter who the Messenger is--Jesus, Allah, the Dalai Lama, Ghandi....as long as at some point we are OPEN to to hearing and receiving the Message.
the variances of mileage, right? ;)
re.#30 John.... "a dance of Energy"
I'm allowing that concept to marinate just a bit.
I do agree with you, about the cyclical nature of Life and Energy, and as I begin to open my eyes more, I'm seeing this more and more in my own life.
Thank-you so much for your comment.
34 - Conn Stell
"Nothing in this life is clearly black and white, so why would the next life be any different?"
I think that all ideas about afterlife are so vague that they confuse more than teach you something.
Tips & Hints
http://lifecho.com
35 - Nancy
My question is, if we're sent back to learn our lessons then why aren't there more people in the world doing good? What's the point of sending someone back if they don't/can't remember the past mistakes & thus are doomed to repeat them over & over? Granted, most humans are too stupid for words & can barely remember their own names most of the time, but still, after a point you'd think most of them would have the little light bulb go on - ah HA! - and there would go the majority of the world's population.
I'm personally afraid to die, altho when I examine it, I don't know why; it's not like I have any major projects hanging fire or anything, nor do I feel a need to breed, to perpetuate myself or any kind of family name or nose or what have you. And it's not like I have a choice. On the other hand, the idea of living to be old & infirm & increasingly dependent on others for care (or to be ignored & forgotten) is not attractive, either, and yet when I read stories of characters with extremely long or 'eternal' life (like Tolkien's elves) I can't help but thinking I'd hate to have to live forever, and being condemned to eternal life would be a helluva bore & a pain.
Once some years ago I was very, very sick. I remember after a point I stopped caring what happened to me, or my various interests and projects, etc. After I recovered, I kept that feeling of, I guess you'd call it perspective, an awareness that nothing on this earth really matters, certainly not my mundane concerns & problems. This lasted for a couple of years, but gradually wore off. I can still remember the mindset, but can't recapture the internal serenity of it, which is a pity, because it made me (I suspect) a far nicer person to have that Buddhist detachment from the World.
Having experienced it, therefore, I'm surprised I am still afraid, since I 'know' there's nothing to be afraid of, in a sense, and all my hustle & bustle & fretting are in aid of nothing. What I do find most curious is the notion that I'll be gone, and I won't know or care what's going on in the world. Now, that just stops me in my tracks as being very strange.
I wish I DID have the faith of people who believe strongly in the particular tenets of one organized religion or another. It seems to comfort them quite a bit, to believe in what they do, but intellectually I can't lie to myself, and unlike the White Queen, I can't make myself believe at least 10 unbelievable things a day before breakfast, because IMO far too much about organized religion smacks of hype, superstition, & malarkey designed to enhance the power & wealth of those in control of the movement.
36 - Steve
Actually, Nancy, I agree with you as far as reincarnation is concerned.
As to what's believable, it all depends on your conception of God. If it is one of a God who is at the mercy of the laws of creation like the rest of us, then I could understand your scepticism. If however, that is not the case, that in fact God is infinite, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful etc., then the question becomes not HOW COULD God do something or other, it then becomes WHY COULDN'T God do whatever it is? All depends how you look at it really.
37 - chantal stone
I'm not saying that I completely believe in reincarnation, I just believe in the possibility of it. I'm not so sure I believe that there is just one definite ending for everyone. I don't necessarily believe in the biblical definition of heaven or hell--or rather, the interpretation of what heaven or hell is.
This is a difficult thing for me to clearly articulate because my beliefs themselves are not always clear to me even. I just know in my heart that there is God. But I don't think it really matters if you call him or her God, Jehovah, Allah or whatever. I don't believe that there is a single path to reaching God. I think God allows for the diversity of humans to come to Him the way we need to individually. The path for one may not be the right path for another.
This goes against what Christianity stands for, and I still consider myself a Christian. But only because I feel that it is my path.
As far as reincarnation goes, perhaps not everyone visits this Life over and over again. But for me, it just seems like a logical explanation for how certain people (myself included) can feel so inexplicably connected to a certain time or place, when there is no other reason to feel so. I feel, sometimes, that those connections are our Spirit memories, and we just do not know how to recognize them completely.
does any of this make sense?
38 - Steve
Are you referring to the experience commonly known as deja vu, Chantal?? If so, I do wonder if we have a latent prophetical component to at least some of our dreams that may explain that phenomenon. Certainly, the Bible is full of examples where this was so.
Re. endings, not all 'paths' can be true, because they all contradict each other on various points. I simply believe that God will judge us according to what truths we have heard about Him that we have accepted or rejected in our lives. It's not important to know EVERYTHING about God (being infinite, eternal, etc., unlike ourselves, how could we??), the key is, how do we respond to what we have heard that is true. If we reject what we have heard that is true about God, God wont force anyone to stay in heaven with him.
39 - chantal stone
I'm not talking about deja vu.....
what I mean is this: My mother was born and raised in Germany. But she feels this pull to the American South. And whenever we have travelled to the south, she says she has always felt like she was going home. Even on her first trip to Georgia and the Carolina's, there was an inexplicable feeling of familiarity for her.
I have felt the same thing about Ireland. I've been to Ireland 3 times, and each time, I felt like I was going home. I'm not even Irish!
It could all be that my mom and I are crazy....you never know!
As far as accepting the "truth" that we have learned about God....I know and understand your argument or explanation, I just don't agree 100%.
40 - Steve
I see, Chantal.
I'm not sure why you'd have to attribute those feelings to having lived there before.
Everyone's different, we all have different preferences as far as life goes, simply because one is drawn to a foreign culture because it feels like home does not mean, therefore, that one must have lived there. It simply means that there are things about that culture that appeal to us more than our own homeland. It would be incredible indeed to think that everyone that's born in a particular country should feel more at home there than anywhere else! No nation has existed since the beginning of time, so why should everyone born within one be totally comfortable with it?? There will always be folks who like a nation the way it is, then others who would like to change it from within, and then others who would prefer to live somewhere else. Nothing mystical about it.
Bottom line is, we are not simply products of our environment (though they do have some influence on us). We are our own unique persons, and as such, no single country in the world could ever suit every one of us. There will always be folks who 'fit in' somewhere else. You appear to be one of them. Nothing wrong with that.
41 - chantal stone
That's true Steve...in fact, "fitting in" has never really been an issue for me. I've never quite fit in anywhere.
I know from a Christian standpoint, you do not believe in the possibility of reincarnation. The truth is, how can we actually ever know for sure? We can't. All I'm suggesting is the possibility of it.
My beliefs are constantly evolving. I've always tried to keep an open mind to all ideas and I filter what does and does not make sense to me, regardless of my religious faith.
42 - Steve
Well, Chantal, obviously, faith is required to believe many things we are told, whether they be religious in origin or not.
The interesting thing is, if the Christian worldview is true, we WILL know for sure the answer to these questions one day. If Hinduistic notions like reincarnation are true, then we will never be sure, if atheism is true, we will certainly not know, because we'll be dead in every way one day.
I guess I just don't see the attraction in worldviews that essentially guarantee that you will NEVER know for sure. It would kinda make the whole idea of looking for meaning in life...meaningless to me.
I know it's fun to be contrarian (I'm a former atheist myself), but there are some truths that just can't be overlooked without serious consequences. If, as you say, none of these things can be known, what's the point in thinking about them at all??
I've learned that whenever I'm being illogical about something, then there is something existential blocking the way. Rather than gainsay things, I've found it more productive to ask myself where the resistance is coming from. Then it becomes more clear as to whether my resistance has a firm footing or not.
43 - chantal stone
Steve.....
"I guess I just don't see the attraction in worldviews that essentially guarantee that you will NEVER know for sure. It would kinda make the whole idea of looking for meaning in life...meaningless to me."
That's an interesting point. But I just feel that it is Human Nature to question. And regardless of the fact that we could either have all the answers one day, or never know the answers, it is our inherent nature to question everything.
I sit in church sometimes and listen to the pastor preach about faith, and I see people with their blind faith, and it just makes me wonder why would God give us this amazing gift of wonder, and yet expect us not to use it. I feel like God wants us to search for these answers and to question everything. Because sooner or later, the questions will eventually point us in His direction.
Maybe my problem is that I don't have a strong enough faith---at least that's what many Christians would say. I feel I have a solid faith in God, because despite all of the questions with no answers, I still continue to believe in Him.
44 - John Spivey
I have struggled to understand how faith makes us spiritual. It has seemed to me to be the lazy person's way out of coming to grips with life and meaning, an absolution of the difficulties of the path. Faith has never saved me, never healed the pain of my life, never provided balm for watching the cruelties of the world. When I observe what life really is and throw off my judgments and blinders, I fall into a mystery and awe that takes me deeper into being here, deeper into being human. At that moment I understand things that I can't explain. Paradoxically I feel that I come closer to something called god by becoming more deeply human. When I again fear life I suddenly lose it all.
45 - chantal stone
John....
Your eloquence and finesse with words never cease to amaze me.
Faith, I don't think is the problem, depending what you have faith in. I have faith that the sun will rise every morning. I have faith that my children are happy and content. It's BLIND faith that gets Humans into trouble, I believe.
The ability to question is a divine gift.
And you're right John...being "faithful" does not make one spiritual. Sadly, blind faith can sometimes cloud ones ability to truly get in touch with ones own being.
46 - Steve
Chantal, I guess my point is, if there are no answers, why ask the questions?? For what purpose?? If there is no truth, there is no point in questioning, because you'll never find anything out anyway, if that's the case. That's my point. Asking questions only makes sense if there are answers out there to begin with.
I find that many folks who are in societies of Judeo-Christian background these days don't realise that they are actually biting the hand that feeds them when they deny the notion of absolute truth.
Because by saying there is no truth that can be known, you make questions totally redundant. If that's the case, the human nature to question is just a dumb thing to have. That would be alot of reality to deny, it seems to me.
I don't see how faith and awe are antithetical to one another, John.
A faith that leads one to believe in an eternal, infinite God is never going to be lacking in awe or wonder, it seems to me.
I don't see how faith and reason are antithetical to one another either, John. That is a common misconception. Faith should always have a basis in reason, though of course, it is not confined by it, but not antithetical to it. Believers are admonished in the Bible to test what preachers say, is he/she preaching based on what Jesus and the apostles taught, or is he/she out in left field somewhere?? People who don't do that are being lazy, don't take them as an example of Biblical faith!! I've heard some junk from the pulpit, especially on TV, but, of course, the TV shows don't show you congregants asking the pastor about their sermons after the service do they??? I wish they would!
No one in the Bible ever suggests that faith should happen in a vacuum...it is always based in something...or more to the point, someone (i.e. God). Faith is all about trust. If someone said you don't trust your earthly father, then you would say, I know, I don't have a good relationship with him. Same thing with God. Faith is a sign your relationship with God is good. This does not mean you don't have questions but it does mean that you have faith that one day your questions will be answered, some of them sooner and some later. That's all. Any relationship that doesn't have faith/trust is in bad shape. And of course, most relationships have their ups and downs right?? And of course, if we had all of our questions answered, we wouldn't need faith right???
Faith has done the things for me that you list John. I wonder what the differences are between us??
47 - Bliffle
There is no reason for an afterlife. There is, however, a great longing for there to be an afterlife. Thus, the desire gives birth to the belief.
48 - Christopher Rose
Steve's point of view seems so wrapped in mysticism as to be incomprehensible. I've read the following sentence three times and still can't get it to make sense.
"I guess I just don't see the attraction in worldviews that essentially guarantee that you will NEVER know for sure. It would kinda make the whole idea of looking for meaning in life...meaningless to me."
Firstly, you don't get to pick how the world is, it just is and largely doesn't care at all what we think about it.
You seem to be trying to pick ideas that make you feel comfortable rather than understanding what the true nature of this wonderful universe is.
The part about "looking for meaning" is a classic crock that faithists spout and completely makes me mad, as you may have noticed. There is no hidden inner meaning to life. The only thing that matters is how we treat each other and the small part of the universe we occupy with a little respect aand try to leave the place a little better than when we got here.
Life is a precious secular miracle and no amount of what King Missile once so rightly called "Mystical Shit" is ever going to change that.
FAITH IS THE ENEMY OF HUMANITY.
49 - Christopher Rose
I love what you wrote above, Mr Spivey. Nice to see a glimpse of true insight and reverence showing through for a change.
50 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
BLIND FAITH IS THE ENEMY OF HUMANITY.
When I was a young man with a lot more hair on my head, I was content to be an agnostic Jew - that is to say, I might be an Israeli patriot and all rot, that but I would go to synagogue only if my presence was required there.
I was troubled by the water diviners - the guys who could find water with a divining stick. That didn't fit into my neat universe of cause and effect. They, in turn, lead to prophets and the like, people who could predict the future. They didn't fit in either.
I came up with a concept that satisfied my dissatisfaction - the idea of a probabilistic time line. I reasoned that there was some force in the universe that determined events by probability, and that some folks had a bit more insight than others into that force. These were the water diviners and prophets.
For many years, I was content with this view of the universe. I didn't worry about the truth of the Torah or of other religious works, I just assumed that if they were true at all, they were written by some fellow with greater of this insight than most folks.
In essence, I always questioned and always viewed blind faith as an enemy. One, IMHO, has to arrive at one's faith through reasoning and at least some backing in science...
More later.
51 - gonzo marx
hurm...
blind faith, worship, and Fear...
this is the evil triumvirate of the demi-Urge, it remains the direct cause and effect of these weaknesses that Men are/have been manipulated to straying from the Way that makes us whole and Human...
ponder that for a moment, and then re-read comment #22
best i can do to Communicate the Thought
Excelsior!
52 - chantal stone
All if this is interesting for me, especially when I sit here with my coffee, debating whether or not I should go to church this morning.
It's obvious that I've been struggling with my own "faith" lately. But it isn't so much the faith itself, its more of what PEOPLE have done to it: the manipulation and misinterpretation of the Bible.
And it's hard for me to separate the logical and intellectual with what Christianity teaches....Christianity, and other faiths as well.
I agree with comment #22....and that makes the most sense to me. If you look at all the major religions of the world, they all, at some level, teach the same basic message, which gonzo so eloquently articulates:
"don't fuck with each other"
and more than just that, I think most religions try to teach us something that should be inherent to our humanity...which is to love each other, take care of each other, help those in need, be a good person, blah blah blah.
I, for myself, just can't accept all of that on a secular level. Something in me yearns for a deeper meaning to Life.
So, instead of going to church today, maybe I'll just take my kids, my camera, and Spivey's book, and go to the park.
53 - gonzo marx
chatal sez...
So, instead of going to church today, maybe I'll just take my kids, my camera, and Spivey's book, and go to the park.
an excellent Plan...and one that will nurture you much more than the alternative...
chantal sez...
I, for myself, just can't accept all of that on a secular level. Something in me yearns for a deeper meaning to Life.
this one nobody can Answer for you, it is for you to discover...it is one thing to ponder the unKnowable, quite another to obsess in an unhealty fashion...
why are we here?
because we're here...
roll the Bones.
why does it happen?
because it happens..
roll the Bones.
Rush
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
54 - Christopher Rose
Your comments are restored now, chantal, by the power of Mr Winn!
Mr Winn doesn't lose!!
55 - chantal stone
Thank you Christopher, EO, and Phillip, for your vigilance!!!
and to you Gonzo....you were right, the afternoon in the park fed my soul better than anything else could have.
56 - gonzo marx
chantal, i am glad i could be of some small help
since i am gone for at least a little while, keep my Words with you for what aid they might bring...
bye folks
57 - chantal stone
gonzo.....
where are you going?? don't stay away too long...we need the voice of Reason here from time to time!
be well
;)
58 - Nancy
Virulent anti-organized religionist that I am, even I admit that 'church' per se does indeed have a considerable value as a source of sociability & ritual which in itself is very comforting to the individual, and should be utilized as should any positive influence: you get to sit & listen to a (hopefully) decent sermon, greet people, sing favorite songs, & engage in familiar activities that reinforce(generally for most people) positive, happy, & peaceful mindsets. It's only when people forget that church is made for them, and not they for the church, that it becomes a detriment. So, nothing wrong with church at all, or synagogue, or whatever.
Blind faith is a tool only of those who are intent on exploiting others. Notice how it's always some person or entity intent on asserting THEIR authority who dictate the necessity for blind faith.
I always used the rule of thumb that a truly reputable cause or belief system doesn't discourage questioning, because that system has nothing to fear. It's only the systems that can't stand being picked apart in the light of day that insist on unquestioning 'faith', and the more they have to hide, the more they insist on blind faith from their followers.
Art Buchwald, the writer, is currently dying, and has been writing an ongoing series of editorials/pieces about the experience. It makes me very uneasy, I don't know why. Maybe because I can't get my mind around it, as usual. In any event, it's different, and you may want to check it out, if you haven't already.
Reincarnation actually makes sense to me, except for the major caveat that how can you learn to do it right if you can't remember what you did wrong the last time? Yet there is enough evidence of persons having led prior existances that it certainly is something to think about.
Ruvy - I believe these days most Jews believe in an afterlife, don't they? Yet didn't the bible originally (way back in the very old parts) state that Sheol was sort of like non-existance, and not the modern concept of hell? I seem to remember something from one of the psalms about 'how can anybody praise [God] from Sheol' or something; that you died and *pft* you were gone. What WAS the original Hebrew concept of death, anyway? Thanks.
Gonzo, do hurry back. You'll be missed.
59 - RedTard
"Reincarnation actually makes sense to me"
Life is very good a creating the illusion that we are more than a chemical process. There seems to be something more than that which makes us ourselves. Chemical processes are interchangeable, yet I will never wake up one morning as Nancy. My consciousness is restricted to one unique body.
I can't claim to know anything about the afterlife but it seems if the wheels of fortune have shifted to give me this life what is stopping them from giving me another one later. If something has happened once, there is always a chance and I hope a large probability, that it will happen again.
60 - Nancy
I hope you'll never wake up one morning as Nancy; we'd both be very alarmed.
61 - Steve
My point is, Chris, if you are correct, and we have simply evolved a brain that looks for meaning in things when there is none to be found...I mean, think about it...if there is no meaning, then why bother evolving that trait??? I thought things evolved for a purpose, do they not?? You see Chris, science began in theistic countries because looking for laws (whether they be scientific or otherwise) in the universe makes sense if there is a lawgiver. If we are here by chance, science would be a pointless endeavour, there would be no laws to find. The fact that it is not pointless, proves to me that there is more to life than the creation itself.
The fact is, if it weren't for theism, science would never have gotten off the ground in the first place. Without theism, Chris, we'd be no better off than cannibalistic tribes in the jungle. Your position seems totally illogical to me. You are simply biting the hand that has fed you with your materialistic approach (i.e. the creation is all there is) to things.
Re. mysticism, Chris, you need to study these things in order to understand them, simply dismissing them out of hand wont help you.
Re. Gonzo and the Rush example, that's a non answer, that's an evasion of the question, not an answer, it doesn't count. I've always thought that was a dumb song. A better answer to gonzo's question from Chris's point of view would be "because there is no why". But if people buy into that, not only would religion be up the creek without a paddle, so would science.
I can see it now...why does a light bulb give off light?? Because it happens, there is no why!!! LOL.
Of course, as far as Chantal goes, if there is no deeper meaning in life why does Chantal feel as if there is something missing (and not only her but 80% plus of the world's population)??? What a strange thing to just 'evolve', huh?? A sense that there is meaning missing that doesn't actually exist?? Sorry, Chris, materialism and evolution just can't answer these questions.
62 - Christopher Rose
Steve, we haven't evolved a brain that looks for meaning where there is none to be found, that's simply a false premise.
If you're involved in a group that believes in the creation myth that our universe and everything in it was created by some superbeing with absolute power then you are simply going to see the world in those terms.
Things evolve for a function, not a purpose in the sense you mean it. Faithists don't look for the laws of the universe, they look for confirmation of their world view, as the second half of your first paragraph so conveniently demonstrates.
You don't need a lawgiver to have natural processes occurring, they too simply evolved. This is exactly why the miracle of life is indeed so profound.
It is also why we should all be showing a far greater commitment to each other and the little rock we all live on than the intellectually and morally bankrupt ideas of the Judaic-Christian-Islamic god theory seems capable of.
Faithism seemed to explain the world back in the day, now it doesn't. The world has moved on; the question is, are people like you coming with us?
Re mysticism: the argument that you have to study it in order to be able to assess its value is one of the classic false arguments of the faithist.
If there is no god, and there is absolutely zero evidence that suggests there is, then the details are moot.
If there is, then I am obviously doing their work anyway, despite being totally oblivious of the higher power shaping me.
Steve, you seem very confused to me. You're obviously a decent and caring person but it's simply spiritually and intellectually dishonest to leap from sensing the feeling of connectedness we all share to saying that this tri-partite god cult of yours is the answer.
Maybe what is missing is the honesty to accept the unity of all life and embrace our common origins rather than focussing upon the falsehood of which little cult has the inside track to the real mystery of life.
It's blatantly obvious that the organised churches are basically just archaic ways of social and political management, using the god theory as a way to make people tow the party line. I for one see the lack of clothes on this false emperor and am not afraid to say so.
63 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Nancy asks,
"What WAS the original Hebrew concept of death, anyway? Thanks."
You'll find the original concept here. A person expires, is gathered to his people, and is buried.
64 - Steve
That was an interesting article you linked to, Ruvy. I was going to post there but many of the comments after #100 are blank on my screen, so I decided not to. It was interesting that it was posted in Lancet and that the naysaying commenters discounted eyewitness evidence as 'anecdotal'. I wonder why police bother interviewing eyewitnesses to find out what happened if they are that unreliable?? I never did see what reason they suggested as to why Lancet published the aticle either, their objections notwithstanding.
65 - chantal stone
Everyone is making such interesting and thought provoking comments...definitely giving my brain a welcome tingle, and I appreciate that.
Nancy...I loved your comment #58...100% on the money.
Christopher, I think what bothers me so much about your comments is that I'm a "faithest" and yet I agree with much of what you say. go figure...definitely food for thought.
Ruvy.....I've posted on the article you linked to, so you already know that I think it is a fascinating read.
Steve.....please do not think that I feel that there is anything "missing". I feel very fulfilled in my life in all areas, including the spiritual. My questions are not "what?" or "why?"....they are more like "how?" and "why not?" I feel like it's my duty to question...perhaps my calling. The day I stop questioning everything will be the day I begin to really worry about myself.
you're a sweetie though ;)
66 - Steve
Chris, I was an atheist until I was 19, and no, my parents were not Christians, and no, I am not a member of a church at this time, and the one I was a member of did not have a specific position vis a vis creation and evolution and I've never belonged to a church that has, so please stop believing your friends who say only people in the situations you mentioned above believe differently from you, because that is simply not true, I know plenty of non church/temple/synagogue/mosque going people who don't believe as you do, so please stop buying those stereotypes! You really do need to get out more. Your friends are either not being entirely honest with you, or they need to mingle more too.
Re. mysticism, it's like anything, the more you read, the easier it is to understand, that goes for any topic under the sun. I'm amazed that you didn't have to do any reading to learn your subjects in high school, wow!
I'm sorry you think that Chantal and 80+% of the world population are nothing more than a false premise!! Really! They're all lying about how they feel inside Christopher?? That's a mighty big conspiracy theory you've got going there! And how many religions are involved?? And yet, you say, they're always fighting??? Which is it, Chris?? Are they breaking up the world or are they unified?? You can't have your cake and eat it too you know!!
The fact is, atheists will always be in a minority, because their positions do not answer the questions in my previous post (or many others). Neither did you by the way.
Finally, you talk about my faith as a 'tri partite cult'. Well, I'm glad you are employing the same language that religious folk use about other religions they disagree with. That's something you have in common with many faithists anyway. At least faithists believe there are absolute truths by which these things can be measured. And you do too apparently. Maybe you're not as different from us as you'd like to think???
You said, "Faithism seemed to explain the world back in the day, now it doesn't. The world has moved on; the question is, are people like you coming with us?"
Even granting similarities, the problem as you put it is not that we all need to agree with each other, Chris, that way lies dictatorship, we just need to know how to disagree and be civil about it.
By the way, I have no problem with you using the term faithist because I don't use the term atheist as a term that is inherently derogatory, only descriptive. Kind of a neat term actually.
67 - Steve
Chantal, I didn't see your post until just now, ok, my point was you couldn't accept the secular view of life because it was lacking deeper meaning, I was not meaning to suggest your life was not fulfilled NOW, sorry. Thanks for clarifying and your sweet comment, awww, shucks....
Certainly, Chantal, I have no problem with people who question, heck, you can only imagine how many questions it took to get me from atheist to Christian lol.
I just finding it puzzling that having studied the history of science and seen how many times they've been wrong about so many things, I'm just baffled that people jump on the latest findings as if they will never be replaced by other perspectives, years, decades, centuries or millennia later. If there's anything I've learned, there's no room for dogmatism in science, and it pains me to see so many people who can't see that. It's like science has become their religion or something, and scientists are the high priests. But then, from all the studies I've seen an increasing number of people don't seem to know much about history these days. I don't think denigrating the past is going to help that, it'll only make it worse, and then we can make the same mistakes all over again.
68 - chantal stone
re. comment #59:
RedTard, you say "Life is very good a creating the illusion that we are more than a chemical process. There seems to be something more than that which makes us ourselves."
It's not an illusion...at least not in my mind....and there is something 'more'----it's that More that has had Man in the constant state of Question for thousands of years.
Steve....I just feel that somewhere, there has to be a place where science and religion/faith (whatever you want to call it) can meet. Somehow, somewhere, the puzzle pieces all fit.
But just as you say that people will grab hold of any new piece of scientific evidence and run with it....other people are still holding on to stories from thousands of years ago that were used to explain the Unexplainable, despite developments in science.
all I know is ...somewhere....a happy medium.
69 - gonzo marx
passing shot...
remember...
gnosis > dogma
nuff said
70 - Christopher Rose
Steve: I'm sorry but your comments #66 and #67 contain no meaning at all that I can understand but please do post again when you can...
71 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Steve,
At comment #64.
I looked over the last comments at the article, and comments 100 to 124 were definitely not blanks.
I can't say much about the attitudes I ran into, except to refer you to your own comments about science above (comment #67), and the fact that many scientists are as dogmatic about science as Bible thumpers are about religion.
I will say this though. Schroeder simplified a concept about light waves (his audience was the most non-scientific you could get) so that he could on with his ideas about death and life after death.
72 - Bliffle
There's nothing after death. You're just gone.
73 - Nancy
Geez, I hope not. Awful to think that per the song by Kansas, all we are is dust in the wind, & everything good we've ever done or learned is gone.
One of the main axioms of my life has been, "to whom more is given more will be expected", so I live in fear of getting Up There & God (or whomever) says, "I loaded you up with all kinds of favors & talents, graces & blessings; so what did you do with them all? How come you're not Mother Teresa? Why haven't you made a bigger impact with all that you were given? You WASTED them! OUT!" *sigh* my New England puritan ethic coming to haunt me.
Anne Rice's vision of the afterlife in her novel "Memoch the Devil" was pretty horrific. Made Dante's 9 circles look downright amateur.
74 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Nancy, even if you do not believe there is an afterlife, if you have kids and teach them and tell them the stories of you family, and let them know what their heritage is and how importanat it is to pass on that heritage, then after you die, you are remembered...
As long as you are remembered in the minds of others, you are not truly dead.
As hard as life can be, it is not just "a bitch and then you die".
75 - Nancy
Well, but lots of us don't have kids. I thought you were going to say, 'it forces you to crystallize what you do believe', except that I know plenty of people who just get more confused. I don't reject anything totally; after all, I certainly don't know everything in the world there is to know. For all I know, there are ghosties & ghoulies & things that go bump in the night, and while we're at it, Sasquatch really do exist. I think there are varying percentiles of probability/possibility of things, but absolute certainties - no, because I'm not certain about anything as far as The Way Existance Is. Shoot, I wouldn't have believed in stromatolites if I hadn't seen pictures of them.