That would be me. And I thought I'd share the end of a "discussion" I'm having elsewhere. Why am I proud of being Black?
That would be me. And I thought I'd share the end of a "discussion" I'm having elsewhere.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
26 - P6
Mac:
I believe I'm being tested.
"Can the Black partisan oppose several suggestion of openly anti-Black culture negroes without playing the race card?"
Yes. Though, like them, I can play the race card too. Sometimes it's the only thing people understand. I have sound economic and social principles supporting my disagreement with them, though. In general I don't need to address the fact that they don't seem to like Black folks very much.
27 - Eric Olsen
P6, I can't and won't presume to tell you that you shouldn't feel excluded, but I don't think it is necessary for you to feel as such.
Don't you think the truth of your stated perspective has diminished over time, and will continue to do so? Don't you see the growth of the Black middle and upper-middle class, the integration of Blacks into every sector of American life, the astronomical increase in interracial marriage, the popularity of Black culture with White Americans, etc., as rather stark and unavoidable signs that things are headed in an inclusive direction? One does not have to turn a blind eye to either the past or the inequities that still remain to be optimistic about the future of racial equality in America.
28 - P6
Shark:
Re: August Wilson- If he was born fifty years ago…one a certain level I fear for his legacy. We're all players in Short Attention Span Theater nowadays.
August is brilliant. And a cool guy too. Uses a Mac.
Re: Willian Grant Still- since most folks won't know him, here's a link to his Afro-American Symphony.
29 - P6
Nick:
Ralph Ellison is definitely in the mix. I just needed to cut it off somewhere.
30 - P6
Eric:
SERIOUSLY another topic, but:
Your opinion isn't arrogance, but it's not right either.
American culture has become dominant because it is the only one in the world that is actively marketed.
31 - P6
Eric:
Again I ask: can you honestly say, to this day, that the USofA acknowledges Black Americans as full members? And if you think so, survey the cultural landscape and tell me how Black Americans will know this.
I'm sorry, but I feel you're avoiding this point, which is frankly critical to finding me to be a reasonable human. I can't let you do that.
Do you see signs we've reached an inclusive state, rather than merely heading in the general direction?
Eric, we can't live in the past…but we can't live in the future either.
Feel me?
32 - P6
Shark:
I haven't seen the commercials, but I've seen the movie (don't ask how).
My thought? "Least Common Denominator"
33 - P6
*sigh*
That should be "Least Uncommon Denominator"
34 - jadester
I did mean to imply i took offense at Eric's comment about American culture - i feel even tho i've never met him that i know him well enough to know that it was not his intention to come across as arrogant.
I simply meant to point out that all to often with such a wide-ranging issue as culture (which, indeed, encompasses every single country) people, in general, forget just how narrow their experience is.
But i would still like to argue my point (i do not intend to "pick" on Eric, btw, i believe he is far from alone in his thoughts, and indeed i would go so far as to guess a similar view is held by people in numerous other countries, not just in the Western world):
"...has come to be the default world culture, precisely because of its hybrid, ecumenical nature that almost every other culture of the world can see some of itself in. That is simple fact, not arrogance."
First off, there may be truth in saying that (north) american culture has become the default *Western* world culture, but i reckon it is actually not true that it is the default world culture. I think the populations of China, Japan, India, Iran (to name a few) would agree with me on this. Have you ever been to any of these countries? how much do you really know of their cultures? i'm not afraid to admit i know almost nothnig of them. maybe someday i will get to experience them, but until then i would guess that they do not, in general, hold as high a view of american culture.
And, whilst it may be true that almost every culture in the world (or possibly actually all of them) can see some of itself in american culture, this does not mean american culture is the only one to be such a diverse culture.
American culture is only so successful due to the sheer number of people in the country. As i said before though, I think it is wrong to judge a culture using the number of people caught up in it. people may be part of a culture against their will - just as not everyone in america is happy being there, not everyone in iran is happy being there, or in china, or england, or japan, and so on.
Even as a "default" culture for the western world, i would argue that it's more the general culture of capitalism that is used, albeit at times news networks may refer to america/some american cities as being the embodiment of this culture, but then, that's just their view, rather than solid fact. Plenty of european cities are embracing capitalism in all its glory.
35 - Eric Olsen
P6, to answer your question: yes, I do think the USA acknowledges Black Americans as full members IF THEY CHOOSE TO BE SO ACKNOWLEDGED, but a part of the bargain is demonstrating an adherence to certain shared values, one of which is that they see themselves as an individual and an American ahead of seeing themselves as Black. It does not appear that you are willing to make this "trade," which has been requested of every other subgroup in America also.
I DO believe America is willing to embrace and include those who are willing to embrace it, and in 2004 that includes Blacks.
And all of the "signs" that we are headed toward an inclusive state are tangible evidence of x%-inclusive state. There is no perfection and to demand perfection or nothing is to assure the answer is "nothing." On the scale from slavery to 100% inclusion I think we are well beyond the halfway mark, and that is a long way from nothing.
36 - Al Barger
RE: comment 24- I don't know what you mean quite by "hero" vs "giant." I just know that Prince is one of the top handful of most accomplished composers and record makers in the history of recorded music, as is Miles Davis.
Sowell and Williams are distinguished academics and writers, whether you agree with them or not. I suggest ignoring MD's routine "neo-Confederate" nonsense. She just insists that anyone of whatever race who isn't a socialist racialist pinko must just hate black folk. That's just silly. There's no legitimate reason for any of what she says about them. On what basis would you say that "they don't seem to like Black folks very much"? I've seen nothing like that in any of their writing.
As to feeling excluded, that is strictly a personal choice on your part. We have nothing like apartheid or Jim Crow. Get up in there and grab you a piece of this place like anyone else.
If, on the other hand, you get more satisfaction from looking for excuses to feel disgruntled and excluded, that cool too. It's a free country. Live how you want to live.
37 - P6
Eric:
What does that mean?
What does it mean to have 75% inclusion?
How long has this been the case?
Pronoun trouble. Singular or plural "you"?
Singular: America is a field of operation to me and the culture is a toolkit. As such, I see little sense in identifying with either.
Plural: You can't look at the history of Black folks in the USofA and make any sense of that statement. Black people fought to be allowed to fight for America. And you know why there was no major Black revolution in this country? Because there was an active decision made to pursue legal means, futile as that sounds to me. Look at the motivation of the Harlem Renaissance.
That's simply wrong.
38 - Eric Olsen
I meant singular.
I see absolutely no logical difference between your (singular) choosing to identify with Black culture and not identify with America or American culture, vs the reverse or some combination. I see no reason why you can't feel the identification you feel with Black culture AND feel like a free agent American doing your thing like everyone else. It just sounds like a personal choice to me, and that's fine, but if you choose to not be included it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to say you've been excluded.
And as far as my characterization of percentages of inclusion: it's simply trying to attach some kind of numerical value toward the goal of complete race neutrality, where race would not make the slightest difference to anyone in any way.
I agree that in the past the darker the skin the greater the disadvantage, but this has clearly been changing for some time and will continue to do so - living in the present, skin does not equate with exclusion as I see it.
39 - Eric Olsen
P6, On a separate but not unrelated topic: how do you feel about Charley Pride?
40 - P6
Prince isn't quite legendary yet.
Whether I agree with them or not isn't the point. They simply don't have the stature in the Black community to qualify. Who is presented as a hero is always a collective decision.
Don't pretend I'm not aware of your relationship there. If you try to drag me into your personal business again, I will embarass you in threads having no connection to this topic.
41 - P6
Ertic:
See comment #12.
42 - P6
Have we reached closure? That would be fine with me.
I just need to answer one more question: I'm not a country music fan and don't know enough about Charlie Pride to form an opinion on any other basis.
43 - Al Barger
Prometheus- why the hostility, brother? I didn't even say anything to disagree with you, much less have anything to be snarling and making threats over.
I actually have no personal problem with the famous Mac Diva. She pretty much seems to hate most white folk, so I don't really take it personally. My issues with her are strictly business, and they're minor and not particularly emotionally perturbing to me.
I wasn't particularly trying to get you or anyone else "involved" in anything there. Look at what I said. I just suggested that you discount certain statements she has made in this thread on the grounds of lack of any evidence from her to back these hateful claims about Dr Williams.
Actually, to the extent I have personal feelings about Diva, I sometimes do feel a bit like I'm Da Mayor trying to make nice with the Mother Sister.
Plus, you threaten to embarrass me. YOU can't embarrass me- only I can do that.
The only kind of embarrassment you might inflict is the the kind of reflected embarrassment that an adult might feel when their child makes a scene in a restaurant.
So, you're threatening to follow me around the site and throw childish tantrums on me for having the temerity to question Diva's standard foolishness? Where's the love?
Actually, that sounds so much like Diva's MO that one has to wonder. Do you really exist, Prometheus, or are you just another one of Her numerous pseudonyms?
Also, I'm somewhat surprised by this statement: "Whether I agree with them or not isn't the point. They simply don't have the stature in the Black community to qualify. Who is presented as a hero is always a collective decision."
I guess I missed that meeting. Someone must have forgotten to send me an invitation. What was the collective vote on Walter Williams "hero" status? Also, when is Prince up for a vote again? I'd like to campaign for him a bit.
44 - P6
because you know my position as regards getting caught up in your dispute. Trying to get me into it now is just assing up.
As with the comment I now respond to.
No hostility or nuffin as long as you control your obvious obsession. I got my own private assholes to deal with but you get gauged to be an asshole by me if you become one in connection with me.
You now can set the tone between us going forward, Al. Totally up to you.
When you're on topic, you get serious discussion. When your obsession kicks in, I will assume it's Tourettes Syndrome and move on.
And no, I don't exist.
45 - Mac Diva
In the interest of acccuracy, I will stoop to replying to something Al Barger said. Walter Williams is proudly a partisan of the neo-Confederate movement. He is a member of the SCV, though I don't think the League of the South let him join. Still, he proudly expouses their belief the ideal government was the South's circa 1860 or so and that the South should secede from the U.S. and set up its own government, again. I've linked to proof of Williams' beliefs above and on several other occassions at Blogcritics. Furthermore, anyone can Google Williams' name and SCV, or neo-Confederate, or secession, and read the results for himself. Al Barger has said often enough that he has only read one author in his life -- Ayn Rand. He considers that sufficient as a source of information. However, I believe most people benefit from researching topics instead of merely running their mouths about them.
Because of Al Barger's refusal to do even the tiniest bit of research, I ignore the majority of his output. I think it best to avoid being drawn into the endless cycle of demanding evidence while presenting none himself and then ignoring the evidence the opposition has presented he likes to trap people in.
46 - Phillip Winn
Al (#43), Mac Diva does not use any more than her one identity at this site, so your suggestion to the contrary is inappropriate. You can currently click on the "Experimental" IP link at the end of any comment to see other comments from the same IP address, and you can click on those for MD all you want without coming up with anybody but her.
I suggest an apology to MD, but I'll settle for you never making an accusation like this again.
47 - Al Barger
The suggestion of Prometheus being a pseudonym for Diva was just a minor joke.
Considering her known history, however, it would not be out of line to think she would do such a thing- not that using pseudonyms is particularly a harsh accusation.
Your attention was utterly unrequired here Phil, and you'll settle for me saying whatever the hell I want. I suggest that you stick to your special administrative responsibilities. Thanks.
48 - Mac Diva
I have no history of multiple IDs, here or elsewhere. I am more than willing to claim my thoughts as my own. Al Barger, if he had an iota of decency, would not rely on falsehoods to try to compensate for the fact that he is incapable of responding to my assertions in an intelligent manner.
What he is doing here, implying that the idea of African-Americans being heroes is ludicrous, is reprehensible. However, in the big picture it does not matter. An August Wilson, Ben Carson or Mae Jemison will leave a proud legacy of accomplishments on his or her demise. Al Barger will leave absolutely nothing but a bad smell, which will dissipate and be forgotten.
49 - Al Barger
Diva, you routinely make these claims with absolutely no basis in reality. You've been documented repeatedly with creating multiple online identities and using them to reinforce one another as if they were endorsements from different individuals, ie mac-a-ronies and silver rights, etc.
I don't even care about that though. That's perfectly cool with me- but don't try to deny it, and definitely don't act as if I'm just making up the charges out of thin air.
You claim that Walter Williams espouses the belief that "the ideal government was the South's circa 1860 or so." You just made that up. The fact that you have repeated the same slanderous lie a bunch of times does not make it true.
Also, your statement that I am "implying that the idea of African-Americans being heroes is ludicrous" has NO basis. Again, you just made it up wholecloth. I've never said nor thought anything like that. In fact, that's pretty much the exact OPPOSITE of what I've said here.
Indeed, my point of entry was to say right on to Prometheus for this original post, and suggest several more possible exalted names.
He didn't specifically use the word "heroes," and I don't know if that is necessary. Perhaps we should avoid putting some requirement of saintly personal perfection on mere mortals. I think it might be sufficient to describe them as "distinguished individuals."